Lilliput Car PC
 

I'm considering the Lilliput for use onboard.

They are selling these on Ebay:



http://cgi.ebay.com/Lilliput-Car-PC-...QQcmdZViewItem


I'm considering the Lilliput for use onboard.

They are selling these on Ebay:


It's designed as a mobile pc with a 40 gig HD and 1 ghz CPU. The
power consumption is around 30 watts (but no more than 48 watts), and
has some nice features. Around US$500. Any use this model or
thinking about using one I'd like your opinions.

Cheers, Jim

Lilliput Car PC
 

For $500 you can get a new laptop with twice the disk space and twice
the procesor speed, and a 15" screen. (frys.com, or your prefered
discounter)
I would not in-dash-mount a computer, as you arel likely to replace it
from time to time. Plus, you might like it to be portable sometimes.



On Mar 13, 1:54 am, wrote:
I'm considering the Lilliput for use onboard.

They are selling these on Ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Lilliput-Car-PC-...D-MP3-GPS-USB-...

I'm considering the Lilliput for use onboard.

They are selling these on Ebay:

It's designed as a mobile pc with a 40 gig HD and 1 ghz CPU. The
power consumption is around 30 watts (but no more than 48 watts), and
has some nice features. Around US$500. Any use this model or
thinking about using one I'd like your opinions.

Cheers, Jim

Lilliput Car PC
 

On Mar 20, 3:17 pm, wrote:
For $500 you can get a new laptop with twice the disk space and twice
the procesor speed, and a 15" screen. (frys.com, or your prefered
discounter)
I would not in-dash-mount a computer, as you arel likely to replace it
from time to time. Plus, you might like it to be portable sometimes.


Hi Chris;
I see two advantages of a VIA solution for onboard PC over a laptop;
power consumption and fanless, so the motherboard can be isolated from
the marine environment.

Cheers, Jim

Lilliput Car PC
 

* wrote, On 3/20/2007 5:38 AM:
On Mar 20, 3:17 pm, wrote:
For $500 you can get a new laptop with twice the disk space and twice
the procesor speed, and a 15" screen. (frys.com, or your prefered
discounter)
I would not in-dash-mount a computer, as you arel likely to replace it
from time to time. Plus, you might like it to be portable sometimes.


Hi Chris;
I see two advantages of a VIA solution for onboard PC over a laptop;
power consumption and fanless, so the motherboard can be isolated from
the marine environment.

I'll repeat my comments, having built one, being more explicit: The
power consumption is low, but not that much lower than a laptop.
Plus, the box doesn't include a screen, so you have to factor that in.
As for running fanless, my M6000 motherboard was billed as fanless,
but when I was able to run with a temperature monitor, it was over the
upper limit whenever the cpu ran 100%. Using either a case fan
(noisy) or a CPU fan was enough to keep it cool. I have no idea if it
would survive running fanless, but I'd be careful about the ambient
temp. Remember that most cars have A/C and don't get that hot.
Further, the fanless units are all low speed, mine runs at about 800
MHz; If I bought a new one I'd want at least 1.2 or 1.3 GHz but that
makes the cooling more important. Frankly, I've given up on the
concept of fanless. And finally, almost any laptop will run with
external screen, mouse and keyboard.

Don't get me wrong, I like my mini-itx machine: I use it every day,
and I keep looking for ways to upgrade it. But bang-for-the-buck, a
cheap laptop beats it easily.

Lilliput Car PC
 

Don't get me wrong, I like my mini-itx machine: I use it every day,
and I keep looking for ways to upgrade it. But bang-for-the-buck, a
cheap laptop beats it easily.

Thanks Jeff; I hear you. The new VIA mini boards (EPIA EX with the
CX700M2 chipset or EPIA EN) look very cutting edge, and cliam 13.2
watts power consumption without the screen as you pointed out.

Laptops are now outselling desktops and they are getting better all
the time. It's the fanless aspect that really appeals to me; perhaps
fanless would work in a purpose-built environment. I haven't
researched laptops yet beyond learning that the newer, faster laptops
use less power that the older, slower laptops.

Cheers, Jim

Lilliput Car PC
 

On 20 Mar 2007 20:37:11 -0700, wrote:

Laptops are now outselling desktops and they are getting better all
the time. It's the fanless aspect that really appeals to me; perhaps
fanless would work in a purpose-built environment. I haven't
researched laptops yet beyond learning that the newer, faster laptops
use less power that the older, slower laptops.

Do an EBAY search on "COMPAQ ARMADA M300 ". These are great little
laptops with a good screen and keyboad, no fan and full ports. I've
had several on the boat and they are a good value at around $200 used.

Lilliput Car PC
 

* wrote, On 3/20/2007 11:37 PM:
Don't get me wrong, I like my mini-itx machine: I use it every day,
and I keep looking for ways to upgrade it. But bang-for-the-buck, a
cheap laptop beats it easily.

Thanks Jeff; I hear you. The new VIA mini boards (EPIA EX with the
CX700M2 chipset or EPIA EN) look very cutting edge, and cliam 13.2
watts power consumption without the screen as you pointed out.

Laptops are now outselling desktops and they are getting better all
the time. It's the fanless aspect that really appeals to me; perhaps
fanless would work in a purpose-built environment. I haven't
researched laptops yet beyond learning that the newer, faster laptops
use less power that the older, slower laptops.


Check out the "Operating Manual" downloads on the Via website. They
show typical main board power usage under different applications.
Playing a DVD on an EN12000 uses about 14.5 Watts, at idle its 12.3.
Add between 1 and 4 Watts for the EN15000, similar numbers for the EX.

http://www.via.com.tw/download/mainb...PIA-EX_101.pdf
http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/ma...erboard_id=450

However, these numbers are for the board only, and don't include the
disk, dvd player, etc. They don't say how much memory is loaded, and
probably don't have USB devices added. If you run mapping software
connected to GPS and instruments, will that keep the CPU pegged? You
should probably figure on 18 Watts or maybe even higher.

As for laptops and fans, the machines I've had (such as the IBM A30
I'm typing on) run fanless much of the time, turning on the fan as the
CPU heats up.

Since I've gone down the route and been a bit stymied by some of the
issues, in particular the screen, I really curious as to what screen
you plan on using, and what size boat this will be on. In my case,
the general power usage on my boat is so high (90 to 180 AH/day) that
saving one or two AH is of little consequence. I don't run the
computer all day so it isn't a big deal.

I know that many people use PC based navigation software, but it
bothers to rely on Windows for something so critical. But that a
whole separate discussion ...

Lilliput Car PC
 

On Mar 20, 2:38 am, wrote:
On Mar 20, 3:17 pm, wrote:

For $500 you can get a new laptop with twice the disk space and twice
the procesor speed, and a 15" screen. (frys.com, or your prefered
discounter)
I would not in-dash-mount a computer, as you arel likely to replace it
from time to time. Plus, you might like it to be portable sometimes.

Hi Chris;
I see two advantages of a VIA solution for onboard PC over a laptop;
power consumption and fanless, so the motherboard can be isolated from
the marine environment.

Cheers, Jim

Hi Jim,

power consumption is a function of the price (and year) of the
laptop. In the $500 range I wouldn't expect huge differences between
laptop and the VIA box, they will both run on the same (cheap) parts.
[As others said, the screen is by far the largest power draw; included
in the specs you get for the laptop, but not for the box, if I
understand correctly.]

Fanless is nice, but unless you waterproof the box _and_ the sreen,
there is no real advantage over a laptop. You can't douse either
system with sal****er. (Remember, the motherboard is probably cheaper
than the screen. :))
Btw., the the laptop fan is not blowing over the motherboard, just
through the heatsink of the processor. (At least in the last one I
took apart.)

I totally agree with Jeff: For ease of use and economics: A laptop.
For high fail safety at a reasonable price: Two cheap laptops, keep
one sealed in plastic as a backup.
For the joy of tweaking and optimizing a neat system: The VIA box.

Have fun,

Chris

Lilliput Car PC
 

Thanks Jeff, Chris, Wayne;
Your opinions have altered my course; I'm looking in the laptop
direction now. One for use and one sealed as a spare. I've always
built my own computers and as you said, a VIA box would be fun to
build but with a critical application (like running navigation
software) you have to be practical. I'm building a 35' steel
pilothouse cutter and haven't calculated my power requirements yet,
but I'm considering a towed generator. The monitor will be housed in
the pilothouse, where it will be dry.

A navigation solution that will work in the cockpit is another issue!

Cheers, Jim

Lilliput Car PC
 

Another View:

Basic Question: Are you planning to be able to "use" the computer from
the helm position?? If so, you will not want to put a typical laptop
in that location. How do you see the screen and operate the laptop?

IF you want a helm-position usable computer for navigation,
monitoring, and possibly onboard controls, then I think the VIA and
similar machines are the way to go. The system mounts in a protected
position, but runs sealed/fanless for high reliability in Salt Air, a
LCD Display (lots of issues and variants and prices) is viewable at
the helm, and some variety of hands-on control (again, many
possibilities) are at the helm position.

The newer VIA units have MP4 video acceleration in the chipset and can
play DVD movies successfully. At Anchor! Unless you want to watch and
listen to Victory At Sea while underway :-)

I'm researching the possibilities and will build some system like this
starting in late May when I get back to the US.

There is a new "WIKI" section of www.boatdesign.net and I'm helping
put together a "Onboard Computers" section. You're invited to drop in
there (http://boatdesign.net/wiki) and help out!
There a discussion section (Tab at the top) so please say hello...

I haven't followed this group, but I will from now on.. Obviously the
only reason for all this stuff is to Get Out There.

Lilliput Car PC
 

* wrote, On 3/22/2007 3:58 PM:
Another View:

Basic Question: Are you planning to be able to "use" the computer from
the helm position?? If so, you will not want to put a typical laptop
in that location. How do you see the screen and operate the laptop?

You simply use a screen and keyboard, the same way you do with the Via
box. Every laptop I've ever seen supports that; USB and Bluetooth
makes it trivial.



IF you want a helm-position usable computer for navigation,
monitoring, and possibly onboard controls, then I think the VIA and
similar machines are the way to go. The system mounts in a protected
position, but runs sealed/fanless for high reliability in Salt Air,

Sealed??? How does that work? The only way it can run fanless is
with good ventilation.

a
LCD Display (lots of issues and variants and prices) is viewable at
the helm, and some variety of hands-on control (again, many
possibilities) are at the helm position.

Anything you can do with the mini-itx box you can also do with a laptop.


The newer VIA units have MP4 video acceleration in the chipset and can
play DVD movies successfully. At Anchor! Unless you want to watch and
listen to Victory At Sea while underway :-)

Most laptops you buy now do the same. My fist DVD player was an IBM
Laptop bought in 2000. But the economics are such that having a
portable DVD player is better. Or a DVD/TV combo. There are lots of
combinations that work.



I'm researching the possibilities and will build some system like this
starting in late May when I get back to the US.

There is a new "WIKI" section of www.boatdesign.net and I'm helping
put together a "Onboard Computers" section. You're invited to drop in
there (http://boatdesign.net/wiki) and help out!
There a discussion section (Tab at the top) so please say hello...

I'd like to see the possibilities. But the truth is I can buy a used
laptop for less money than a mini-itx motherboard with memory, so
there's no way the economics favor the homebuilt.


I haven't followed this group, but I will from now on.. Obviously the
only reason for all this stuff is to Get Out There.

Lilliput Car PC
 

"Jeff" wrote in message
. ..
* wrote, On 3/22/2007 3:58 PM:
Another View:

Basic Question: Are you planning to be able to "use" the computer
from
the helm position?? If so, you will not want to put a typical laptop
in that location. How do you see the screen and operate the laptop?

You simply use a screen and keyboard, the same way you do with the Via
box. Every laptop I've ever seen supports that; USB and Bluetooth
makes it trivial.



IF you want a helm-position usable computer for navigation,
monitoring, and possibly onboard controls, then I think the VIA and
similar machines are the way to go. The system mounts in a protected
position, but runs sealed/fanless for high reliability in Salt Air,

Sealed??? How does that work? The only way it can run fanless is
with good ventilation.

Heat sink principle with surface area heat radiation. Duh!

Wilbur Hubbard

Lilliput Car PC
 

* Wilbur Hubbard wrote, On 3/22/2007 5:24 PM:

Sealed??? How does that work? The only way it can run fanless is
with good ventilation.

Heat sink principle with surface area heat radiation. Duh!

So why don't you explain just how you would do this with a VIA
motherboard.

No, forget it, please don't. It would be too embarrassing for you.

Lilliput Car PC
 

I'd like to see the possibilities. But the truth is I can buy a used
laptop for less money than a mini-itx motherboard with memory, so
there's no way the economics favor the homebuilt.

The thing is with crictical systems we want redundancy (backup), and
this includes PC's.
Besides navigation, PC's can be used for a number of 'black box'
applications, including AIS and fish finder to name a couple. Also,
there is the SSB radio interface with a PC. So a back-up system is
even more vital.

So you really need to double the cost differential between a laptop
and other options when you're calculating the economics of it.
Roughly, you can buy two laptops for the cost of a single mini-itx
system. The laptops will be slightly faster and use slighlty more
power. Many laptops seem to survive ok in the marine environment
without being sealed even if it was possible to do. Of course another
option is to have a mini-itx with a laptop backup(-:.
Cheers, Jim

Lilliput Car PC
 

On 22 Mar 2007 17:51:54 -0700, wrote:

Besides navigation, PC's can be used for a number of 'black box'
applications, including AIS and fish finder to name a couple. Also,
there is the SSB radio interface with a PC. So a back-up system is
even more vital.

Yes. I have one laptop more or less dedicated to navigation - chart
plotting and track logging, and a second laptop used most of the time
for SSB or internet communications - WiFi, Sprint Aircard, Winlink,
EMAIL, Weather FAX, NAVTEX, etc. On extended cruises we also bring
along the admirals laptop which can back up either of mine or be used
with WiFi when in port.

I typically by laptops that are used/off lease/reconditioned/etc.,
rarely paying more than $300. My present navigation workhorse is a
Panasonic Toughbook which is built to near military standards and has
an exceptionally bright screen. That one was a bit over $400.

Lilliput Car PC
 

Sealed??? How does that work? The only way it can run fanless is
with good ventilation.

Sure you can, several of the newer home theatre types of PCs use extended
heat sinks to dissipate the heat from their CPU, video and I/O chipsets. So
while that particular case and motherboard might not lend itself to such a
setup, it's certainly "possible" to do it. But that doesn't change the fact
that unless you're planning on a helm installation it's often cheaper to
just buy two used laptops instead.

Lilliput Car PC
 

* Bill Kearney wrote, On 3/24/2007 10:42 AM:
Sealed??? How does that work? The only way it can run fanless is
with good ventilation.

Sure you can, several of the newer home theatre types of PCs use extended
heat sinks to dissipate the heat from their CPU, video and I/O chipsets. So
while that particular case and motherboard might not lend itself to such a
setup, it's certainly "possible" to do it. But that doesn't change the fact
that unless you're planning on a helm installation it's often cheaper to
just buy two used laptops instead.

Yes, I should have been more specific that what I meant by "it" was
the Via board in a mini chassis. There are certainly a number of ways
to remove heat, but I don't think they fall within the design
parameters of this system.

I have followed a company that builds embedded supercomputers for use
in military and other applications. While in the beginning the
engineering challenges were digital hardware, and then software
design, the problem evolved into a mechanical problem, namely, how do
you remove heat from the system.