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Damm Roaches
Doug thanks for the migraine headache. I will be coming to your house to
pick up the medicine personally to remove the pain. ö¿ö rotflmao Jack "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... This is bait & switch. I'm callin' the NY attorney general. :-) "Jack Rye" .# wrote in message news:POUlb.33423$Rd4.27387@fed1read07... Well Doug, you can always by the books don't get MAD GET EVEN, and SCREW YOU II. They are packed full of great nasties for your type of problem. Good luck on solving your inconvenience. Jack "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "Jack Rye" .# wrote in message news:eFUlb.33422$Rd4.3437@fed1read07... ROTFLMAO Sorry Doug I am no long sanctioned to do wet work. Well, don't go around teasing people like that! I was gonna have you take care of the guy AND his damned dog. |
Damm Roaches
So you have dog problems. Well to solve the inconvenience. Buy some
Pillsbury chocolate cookie dough at your grocery store and some chocolate Exlax. Put two bars of Exlax in each cookie and bake. About an hour before the neighbor brings the dog in for the night. Toss two cookies to the dog. You'll know you got even when you see the carpet cleaning truck or new carpet being installed. Jack "Jack Rye" .# wrote in message news:8uVlb.33427$Rd4.14534@fed1read07... Doug thanks for the migraine headache. I will be coming to your house to pick up the medicine personally to remove the pain. ö¿ö rotflmao Jack "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... This is bait & switch. I'm callin' the NY attorney general. :-) "Jack Rye" .# wrote in message news:POUlb.33423$Rd4.27387@fed1read07... Well Doug, you can always by the books don't get MAD GET EVEN, and SCREW YOU II. They are packed full of great nasties for your type of problem. Good luck on solving your inconvenience. Jack "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "Jack Rye" .# wrote in message news:eFUlb.33422$Rd4.3437@fed1read07... ROTFLMAO Sorry Doug I am no long sanctioned to do wet work. Well, don't go around teasing people like that! I was gonna have you take care of the guy AND his damned dog. |
Damm Roaches
"Jack Rye" .# wrote in message
news:JGVlb.33430$Rd4.15009@fed1read07... So you have dog problems. Well to solve the inconvenience. Buy some Pillsbury chocolate cookie dough at your grocery store and some chocolate Exlax. Put two bars of Exlax in each cookie and bake. About an hour before the neighbor brings the dog in for the night. Toss two cookies to the dog. You'll know you got even when you see the carpet cleaning truck or new carpet being installed. You're as phucked up as I am! Have a beer! |
Damm Roaches
Household ammonia (3 to 10 percent aqueous NH3) and bleach (5 percent NaOCl)
are two of the most common cleaning agents. Combining them releases chloramine gas, which is a combination of monochloramines (NH2Cl) and dichloramines (NHCl2). Chloramine is any of various compounds containing nitrogen and chlorine Jack "Steve Christensen" wrote in message ... In article unTlb.33417$Rd4.8115@fed1read07, Jack Rye says... Here is one of my best tricks at getting rid of roaches on a boat. Make sure that you can open all the windows and hatches from outside the boat. You do not want to go inside the boat to open the hatches. Put a 5 gallon container inside the boat with a few fans to circulate the air. Pour equal parts of Clorox and Ammonia into the five gallon container. Now run like hell and get away from the boat. Clorox and Ammonia mixed together produces a vary deadly substance called Chlorine Gas. Chlorine gas is odorless and colorless, and highly deadly. Chlorine Gas will kill everything and anything in a matter of a minutes. Many a house wife has died from mixing the two chemicals together by accident. I MUST REPEAT CLOROX AND AMMONIA MIXED IN EVEN SMALL AMOUNTS WILL KILL YOU VARY QUICKLY. Jack First, this doesn't make chlorine gas, it makes chloramine gas (which is still bad stuff). And second, do NOT try this. Your chance of being asphyxiated is pretty good, like if you tripped getting away from the bucket. Getting rid of the bugs isn't worth risking your life. Steve Christensen |
Damm Roaches
Thanks. Don't mined if I do. Cheers, and may I toast you on such an astute
observation. Jack "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "Jack Rye" .# wrote in message news:JGVlb.33430$Rd4.15009@fed1read07... So you have dog problems. Well to solve the inconvenience. Buy some Pillsbury chocolate cookie dough at your grocery store and some chocolate Exlax. Put two bars of Exlax in each cookie and bake. About an hour before the neighbor brings the dog in for the night. Toss two cookies to the dog. You'll know you got even when you see the carpet cleaning truck or new carpet being installed. You're as phucked up as I am! Have a beer! |
Damm Roaches
"Jack Rye" .# wrote in message
news:gXVlb.33432$Rd4.2825@fed1read07... Thanks. Don't mined if I do. Cheers, and may I toast you on such an astute observation. Dirty secret. If I'm up at 4:00 AM because the neighbor's dog is out making noise, I'll sometimes dose my cat (Rosie the Horrible) with catnip, let her out, and toss cat treats along the fenceline. Drives the friggin' dog nuts, and there seems to be no limit as to how much the the cat's willing to spend along that fence. The dog ends up with its neck and legs completely wrapped in its chain. Much more fun than calling the cops to enforce the noise ordinance, which doesn't work most of the time anyway. |
Damm Roaches
May I congratulate you on such a brilliant way in tormenting the problem.
You have it all under control. Cheers and may the force be with you. Jack "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "Jack Rye" .# wrote in message news:gXVlb.33432$Rd4.2825@fed1read07... Thanks. Don't mined if I do. Cheers, and may I toast you on such an astute observation. Dirty secret. If I'm up at 4:00 AM because the neighbor's dog is out making noise, I'll sometimes dose my cat (Rosie the Horrible) with catnip, let her out, and toss cat treats along the fenceline. Drives the friggin' dog nuts, and there seems to be no limit as to how much the the cat's willing to spend along that fence. The dog ends up with its neck and legs completely wrapped in its chain. Much more fun than calling the cops to enforce the noise ordinance, which doesn't work most of the time anyway. |
Damm Roaches
No, it's totally out of control and hopeless, but such is the law. I made an
amazing discovery about a year ago. The same earplugs I use at the pistol range work very nicely for noisy neighbors at night. "Jack Rye" .# wrote in message news:1%Wlb.33440$Rd4.21265@fed1read07... May I congratulate you on such a brilliant way in tormenting the problem. You have it all under control. Cheers and may the force be with you. Jack "Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "Jack Rye" .# wrote in message news:gXVlb.33432$Rd4.2825@fed1read07... Thanks. Don't mined if I do. Cheers, and may I toast you on such an astute observation. Dirty secret. If I'm up at 4:00 AM because the neighbor's dog is out making noise, I'll sometimes dose my cat (Rosie the Horrible) with catnip, let her out, and toss cat treats along the fenceline. Drives the friggin' dog nuts, and there seems to be no limit as to how much the the cat's willing to spend along that fence. The dog ends up with its neck and legs completely wrapped in its chain. Much more fun than calling the cops to enforce the noise ordinance, which doesn't work most of the time anyway. |
Damm Roaches
Jack Rye wrote:
So you have dog problems. Well to solve the inconvenience. Buy some Pillsbury chocolate cookie dough at your grocery store and some chocolate Exlax. Put two bars of Exlax in each cookie and bake. About an hour before the neighbor brings the dog in for the night. Toss two cookies to the dog. You'll know you got even when you see the carpet cleaning truck or new carpet being installed. Years ago the dog across the street used to come over and knock my garbage can over and paw the lid off. I had some old raw/freezer burned Italian sausage laying about...one chunk of exlax per link in the trash can. I was actually relieved to see the dog out and moving two weeks later since I then knew I hadn't killed it. It wasn't really the dogs fault. It also never came into my yard ever again. -- The wise and intelligent are coming belatedly to realize that alcohol, and not the dog, is man's best friend. Rover is taking a beating -- and he should. -- W.C. Fields |
Damm Roaches
On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:53:18 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote: "Jack Rye" .# wrote in message news:gXVlb.33432$Rd4.2825@fed1read07... Thanks. Don't mined if I do. Cheers, and may I toast you on such an astute observation. Dirty secret. If I'm up at 4:00 AM because the neighbor's dog is out making noise, I'll sometimes dose my cat (Rosie the Horrible) with catnip, let her out, and toss cat treats along the fenceline. Drives the friggin' dog nuts, and there seems to be no limit as to how much the the cat's willing to spend along that fence. The dog ends up with its neck and legs completely wrapped in its chain. Much more fun than calling the cops to enforce the noise ordinance, which doesn't work most of the time anyway. I wouldn't call it in as a noise violation. I'd call animal control. If they are that irritating there is a possibility of abuse. I think there would be a greater probability of achieving a favorable result. |
Damm Roaches
Yea but I wonder how much booze and drugs it would take to kill all dem
roaches? KM wrote in message ... On 23 Oct 2003 07:24:20 -0700, Steve Christensen wrote: In article , Rosalie B. says... x-no-archive:yes "Paul" wrote: Errr....why not just go buy a chunk of dryice, toss it in and close the boat up? One extra Oxygen molecule. But it's not available is it? I thought it would be bound up and unusable. We spray it on a fire to choke it out so I figured it may have oxygen but it's not available. For that matter, water has oxygen too doesn't it? But you can't breathe it since it's not available. I may be wrong ... I'm just wondering. Carbon dioxide (from dry ice) is a simple asphyxiant. If it displaces the oxygen in the air it will kill you, but it takes quite a bit of it. You can be exposed to 30,000 ppm for 15 minutes and still be OK. Carbon monoxide at 1500 ppm may lead to death, and the 15 minute exposure limit is 35 ppm for an hour. This is because without the extra oxygen molecule, CO has a 200 to 300 times great affinity for hemoglobin than oxygen does. So even if there is enough oxygen present, the CO will kick it off the hemoglobin and you will die. So it isn't just a simple asphyxiant any more. Roselie is correct about the CO being more than an asphyxiant. But the object of all this is to kill roaches, right? It's been awhile since college zoology, but I don't think roaches even have circulatory systems, let alone hemoglobin. I have frozen roaches in liquid nitrogen (when bored during a late night in the lab) only to have them thaw out and crawl away. Hardy little beasts. Does anyone even know whether depriving them of oxygen (with CO, CO2, N2, whatever) will kill them? I bet it's damn hard to do. Steve Christensen Wait until Keith Richards dies, and find out what killed him. That will be your answer. BB |
Damm Roaches
Boy, where was THIS discussion when I had a barking dog as a neighbor. None
now that I live on the boat, but I sure would have used these ideas! "Horace Brownbag" wrote in message ... On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:53:18 GMT, "Doug Kanter" wrote: "Jack Rye" .# wrote in message news:gXVlb.33432$Rd4.2825@fed1read07... Thanks. Don't mined if I do. Cheers, and may I toast you on such an astute observation. Dirty secret. If I'm up at 4:00 AM because the neighbor's dog is out making noise, I'll sometimes dose my cat (Rosie the Horrible) with catnip, let her out, and toss cat treats along the fenceline. Drives the friggin' dog nuts, and there seems to be no limit as to how much the the cat's willing to spend along that fence. The dog ends up with its neck and legs completely wrapped in its chain. Much more fun than calling the cops to enforce the noise ordinance, which doesn't work most of the time anyway. I wouldn't call it in as a noise violation. I'd call animal control. If they are that irritating there is a possibility of abuse. I think there would be a greater probability of achieving a favorable result. |
Damm Roaches
I thought that mixing ammonia and chlorine produced Phosgene gas..as you
say..exceedingly deadly. Jack Rye wrote: Here is one of my best tricks at getting rid of roaches on a boat. Make sure that you can open all the windows and hatches from outside the boat. You do not want to go inside the boat to open the hatches. Put a 5 gallon container inside the boat with a few fans to circulate the air. Pour equal parts of Clorox and Ammonia into the five gallon container. Now run like hell and get away from the boat. Clorox and Ammonia mixed together produces a vary deadly substance called Chlorine Gas. Chlorine gas is odorless and colorless, and highly deadly. Chlorine Gas will kill everything and anything in a matter of a minutes. Many a house wife has died from mixing the two chemicals together by accident. I MUST REPEAT CLOROX AND AMMONIA MIXED IN EVEN SMALL AMOUNTS WILL KILL YOU VARY QUICKLY. The generator trick works well and the smell will be gone after airing out the boat. Jack "Jack Rye" .# wrote in message news:WQSlb.33413$Rd4.31832@fed1read07... Because they are cold-blooded organisms, insects do not survive very well in extreme cold or hot temperatures. Each insect species has certain temperature and humidity conditions where it thrives. Although there are some differences between species, it should come as no surprise that our domestic cockroaches are best adapted to temperatures that we maintain in our homes. They do not develop or reproduce when temperatures are too cold (below 45degrees F) or too hot (above 115degrees F). Hot and cold temperatures can be very effective in killing cockroaches, but the adverse temperatures must be maintained for a period of time. Hot and cold treatments are also most effective when they "shock" the cockroaches' system. If cold temperatures are gradually lowered, insects have physiological mechanisms that allow them to survive the cold. But, if you take a jar of cockroaches from room temperature and put it into a sub-zero freezer, the insects will be dead within a half hour. They just cannot adapt that quickly. Because cockroaches cannot survive temperatures above 115degrees F to 120degrees F, it is possible to use heat to eradicate cockroaches from restaurants and food service establishments. After all heat sensitive equipment is removed from the building, the temperature is increased to about 140-150degrees F for five to six hours. It may not be possible for the homeowner to increase the heat that much inside the home. But if a small, infested appliance has many small crevices and can withstand 150degrees F heat, a similar procedure can be used. The procedure is simple -- place the heat-proof metal appliance in an oven, and after several hours at 150degrees F, the roaches will be dead. Cold can also be used to kill cockroaches, but it takes a prolonged exposure to low temperatures to kill egg cases. Appliances or furniture can be left in a garage when temperatures are below 0degrees F for several days. If moving, leaving possessions in a truck or van will do the same thing. Infestations in wall voids or indoor cavities can be subjected to extreme cold by using a CO2 (carbon dioxide) gas canister. This will freeze a localized area. Infested appliances can also be fumigated with CO2. Place it in a plastic bag or other airtight container and inject carbon dioxide gas. Allow freezing to occur. If a small item can be subjected to freezing, it also can be placed in a freezer for several hours (or overnight) to kill the cockroaches. Jack "Steve Christensen" wrote in message ... In article , Rosalie B. says... x-no-archive:yes "Paul" wrote: Errr....why not just go buy a chunk of dryice, toss it in and close the boat up? One extra Oxygen molecule. But it's not available is it? I thought it would be bound up and unusable. We spray it on a fire to choke it out so I figured it may have oxygen but it's not available. For that matter, water has oxygen too doesn't it? But you can't breathe it since it's not available. I may be wrong ... I'm just wondering. Carbon dioxide (from dry ice) is a simple asphyxiant. If it displaces the oxygen in the air it will kill you, but it takes quite a bit of it. You can be exposed to 30,000 ppm for 15 minutes and still be OK. Carbon monoxide at 1500 ppm may lead to death, and the 15 minute exposure limit is 35 ppm for an hour. This is because without the extra oxygen molecule, CO has a 200 to 300 times great affinity for hemoglobin than oxygen does. So even if there is enough oxygen present, the CO will kick it off the hemoglobin and you will die. So it isn't just a simple asphyxiant any more. Roselie is correct about the CO being more than an asphyxiant. But the object of all this is to kill roaches, right? It's been awhile since college zoology, but I don't think roaches even have circulatory systems, let alone hemoglobin. I have frozen roaches in liquid nitrogen (when bored during a late night in the lab) only to have them thaw out and crawl away. Hardy little beasts. Does anyone even know whether depriving them of oxygen (with CO, CO2, N2, whatever) will kill them? I bet it's damn hard to do. Steve Christensen |
Damm Roaches
x-no-archive:yes
Steve Christensen wrote: In article , Rosalie B. says... x-no-archive:yes "Paul" wrote: Errr....why not just go buy a chunk of dryice, toss it in and close the boat up? One extra Oxygen molecule. But it's not available is it? I thought it would be bound up and unusable. We spray it on a fire to choke it out so I figured it may have oxygen but it's not available. For that matter, water has oxygen too doesn't it? But you can't breathe it since it's not available. I may be wrong ... I'm just wondering. Carbon dioxide (from dry ice) is a simple asphyxiant. If it displaces the oxygen in the air it will kill you, but it takes quite a bit of it. You can be exposed to 30,000 ppm for 15 minutes and still be OK. Carbon monoxide at 1500 ppm may lead to death, and the 15 minute exposure limit is 35 ppm for an hour. This is because without the extra oxygen molecule, CO has a 200 to 300 times great affinity for hemoglobin than oxygen does. So even if there is enough oxygen present, the CO will kick it off the hemoglobin and you will die. So it isn't just a simple asphyxiant any more. Roselie is correct about the CO being more than an asphyxiant. But the object of all this is to kill roaches, right? It's been awhile since college zoology, but I don't think roaches even have circulatory systems, let alone hemoglobin. I have frozen roaches in liquid nitrogen (when bored during a late night in the lab) only to have them thaw out and crawl away. Hardy little beasts. Does anyone even know whether depriving them of oxygen (with CO, CO2, N2, whatever) will kill them? I bet it's damn hard to do. I used to teach middle school science and I asked the 7th grade students to make an insect collection. In the old days, we used carbon tet to kill them, but that's not available anymore because of the ozone layer thing. So the kids had to freeze them. Unfortunately some insects are very hard to kill by freezing - it was quite common for the wasps to come to after having been mounted in the collection box - and boy were they mad!!! A determined wasp could sometimes get off the pin. We didn't get roaches much. Ticks (which aren't insects of course) are also hard to kill and we would occasionally drown them or the children would pick them off their horses and kill them by zapping them with the end of the electric fence. I think the boric acid is really the best solution which offers the least possibility of your killing yourself. or blowing up your boat (those insect bombs are often quite flammable when the propellant is propane). grandma Rosalie |
Damm Roaches
x-no-archive:yes Larry Demers wrote:
I thought that mixing ammonia and chlorine produced Phosgene gas..as you say..exceedingly deadly. Phosgene is most commonly produced by strong UV light (such as when welding) in the presence of chlorine compounds. It's also an intermediate step in the production of isocyanates. In an industrial setting phosgene is produced by reacting equimolar amounts of carbon monoxide and anhydrous chlorine in the presence of a carbon catalyst under appropriate conditions of temperature and pressure. Jack Rye wrote: Here is one of my best tricks at getting rid of roaches on a boat. Make sure that you can open all the windows and hatches from outside the boat. You do not want to go inside the boat to open the hatches. Put a 5 gallon container inside the boat with a few fans to circulate the air. Pour equal parts of Clorox and Ammonia into the five gallon container. Now run like hell and get away from the boat. Clorox and Ammonia mixed together produces a vary deadly substance called Chlorine Gas. Chlorine gas is odorless and colorless, and highly deadly. Chlorine Gas will kill everything and anything in a matter of a minutes. Many a house wife has died from mixing the two chemicals together by accident. I MUST REPEAT CLOROX AND AMMONIA MIXED IN EVEN SMALL AMOUNTS WILL KILL YOU VARY QUICKLY. The generator trick works well and the smell will be gone after airing out the boat. Jack "Jack Rye" .# wrote in message news:WQSlb.33413$Rd4.31832@fed1read07... Because they are cold-blooded organisms, insects do not survive very well in extreme cold or hot temperatures. Each insect species has certain temperature and humidity conditions where it thrives. Although there are some differences between species, it should come as no surprise that our domestic cockroaches are best adapted to temperatures that we maintain in our homes. They do not develop or reproduce when temperatures are too cold (below 45degrees F) or too hot (above 115degrees F). Hot and cold temperatures can be very effective in killing cockroaches, but the adverse temperatures must be maintained for a period of time. Hot and cold treatments are also most effective when they "shock" the cockroaches' system. If cold temperatures are gradually lowered, insects have physiological mechanisms that allow them to survive the cold. But, if you take a jar of cockroaches from room temperature and put it into a sub-zero freezer, the insects will be dead within a half hour. They just cannot adapt that quickly. Because cockroaches cannot survive temperatures above 115degrees F to 120degrees F, it is possible to use heat to eradicate cockroaches from restaurants and food service establishments. After all heat sensitive equipment is removed from the building, the temperature is increased to about 140-150degrees F for five to six hours. It may not be possible for the homeowner to increase the heat that much inside the home. But if a small, infested appliance has many small crevices and can withstand 150degrees F heat, a similar procedure can be used. The procedure is simple -- place the heat-proof metal appliance in an oven, and after several hours at 150degrees F, the roaches will be dead. Cold can also be used to kill cockroaches, but it takes a prolonged exposure to low temperatures to kill egg cases. Appliances or furniture can be left in a garage when temperatures are below 0degrees F for several days. If moving, leaving possessions in a truck or van will do the same thing. Infestations in wall voids or indoor cavities can be subjected to extreme cold by using a CO2 (carbon dioxide) gas canister. This will freeze a localized area. Infested appliances can also be fumigated with CO2. Place it in a plastic bag or other airtight container and inject carbon dioxide gas. Allow freezing to occur. If a small item can be subjected to freezing, it also can be placed in a freezer for several hours (or overnight) to kill the cockroaches. Jack "Steve Christensen" wrote in message ... In article , Rosalie B. says... x-no-archive:yes "Paul" wrote: Errr....why not just go buy a chunk of dryice, toss it in and close the boat up? One extra Oxygen molecule. But it's not available is it? I thought it would be bound up and unusable. We spray it on a fire to choke it out so I figured it may have oxygen but it's not available. For that matter, water has oxygen too doesn't it? But you can't breathe it since it's not available. I may be wrong ... I'm just wondering. Carbon dioxide (from dry ice) is a simple asphyxiant. If it displaces the oxygen in the air it will kill you, but it takes quite a bit of it. You can be exposed to 30,000 ppm for 15 minutes and still be OK. Carbon monoxide at 1500 ppm may lead to death, and the 15 minute exposure limit is 35 ppm for an hour. This is because without the extra oxygen molecule, CO has a 200 to 300 times great affinity for hemoglobin than oxygen does. So even if there is enough oxygen present, the CO will kick it off the hemoglobin and you will die. So it isn't just a simple asphyxiant any more. Roselie is correct about the CO being more than an asphyxiant. But the object of all this is to kill roaches, right? It's been awhile since college zoology, but I don't think roaches even have circulatory systems, let alone hemoglobin. I have frozen roaches in liquid nitrogen (when bored during a late night in the lab) only to have them thaw out and crawl away. Hardy little beasts. Does anyone even know whether depriving them of oxygen (with CO, CO2, N2, whatever) will kill them? I bet it's damn hard to do. Steve Christensen grandma Rosalie |
Damm Roaches
Phosgene COC12 also called Carbonyl Chloride. First came into use during
World War 1. Where it was used alone or mixed with Chlorine. Inhalation of the gas causes sever lung injury. With the full effect appearing several hours after exposure. Carbon Monoxide and Chlorine in the presence of a catalyst produces Phosgene. Phosgene reacts with water to form Carbon Dioxide and Hydrochloric Acid. Phosgene COC12 also called Carbonyl Chloride. a colorless, chemically reactive, highly toxic gas. Having an odor like that of musty hay. Jack "Larry Demers" wrote in message ... I thought that mixing ammonia and chlorine produced Phosgene gas..as you say..exceedingly deadly. Jack Rye wrote: Here is one of my best tricks at getting rid of roaches on a boat. Make sure that you can open all the windows and hatches from outside the boat. You do not want to go inside the boat to open the hatches. Put a 5 gallon container inside the boat with a few fans to circulate the air. Pour equal parts of Clorox and Ammonia into the five gallon container. Now run like hell and get away from the boat. Clorox and Ammonia mixed together produces a vary deadly substance called Chlorine Gas. Chlorine gas is odorless and colorless, and highly deadly. Chlorine Gas will kill everything and anything in a matter of a minutes. Many a house wife has died from mixing the two chemicals together by accident. I MUST REPEAT CLOROX AND AMMONIA MIXED IN EVEN SMALL AMOUNTS WILL KILL YOU VARY QUICKLY. The generator trick works well and the smell will be gone after airing out the boat. Jack "Jack Rye" .# wrote in message news:WQSlb.33413$Rd4.31832@fed1read07... Because they are cold-blooded organisms, insects do not survive very well in extreme cold or hot temperatures. Each insect species has certain temperature and humidity conditions where it thrives. Although there are some differences between species, it should come as no surprise that our domestic cockroaches are best adapted to temperatures that we maintain in our homes. They do not develop or reproduce when temperatures are too cold (below 45degrees F) or too hot (above 115degrees F). Hot and cold temperatures can be very effective in killing cockroaches, but the adverse temperatures must be maintained for a period of time. Hot and cold treatments are also most effective when they "shock" the cockroaches' system. If cold temperatures are gradually lowered, insects have physiological mechanisms that allow them to survive the cold. But, if you take a jar of cockroaches from room temperature and put it into a sub-zero freezer, the insects will be dead within a half hour. They just cannot adapt that quickly. Because cockroaches cannot survive temperatures above 115degrees F to 120degrees F, it is possible to use heat to eradicate cockroaches from restaurants and food service establishments. After all heat sensitive equipment is removed from the building, the temperature is increased to about 140-150degrees F for five to six hours. It may not be possible for the homeowner to increase the heat that much inside the home. But if a small, infested appliance has many small crevices and can withstand 150degrees F heat, a similar procedure can be used. The procedure is simple -- place the heat-proof metal appliance in an oven, and after several hours at 150degrees F, the roaches will be dead. Cold can also be used to kill cockroaches, but it takes a prolonged exposure to low temperatures to kill egg cases. Appliances or furniture can be left in a garage when temperatures are below 0degrees F for several days. If moving, leaving possessions in a truck or van will do the same thing. Infestations in wall voids or indoor cavities can be subjected to extreme cold by using a CO2 (carbon dioxide) gas canister. This will freeze a localized area. Infested appliances can also be fumigated with CO2. Place it in a plastic bag or other airtight container and inject carbon dioxide gas. Allow freezing to occur. If a small item can be subjected to freezing, it also can be placed in a freezer for several hours (or overnight) to kill the cockroaches. Jack "Steve Christensen" wrote in message ... In article , Rosalie B. says... x-no-archive:yes "Paul" wrote: Errr....why not just go buy a chunk of dryice, toss it in and close the boat up? One extra Oxygen molecule. But it's not available is it? I thought it would be bound up and unusable. We spray it on a fire to choke it out so I figured it may have oxygen but it's not available. For that matter, water has oxygen too doesn't it? But you can't breathe it since it's not available. I may be wrong ... I'm just wondering. Carbon dioxide (from dry ice) is a simple asphyxiant. If it displaces the oxygen in the air it will kill you, but it takes quite a bit of it. You can be exposed to 30,000 ppm for 15 minutes and still be OK. Carbon monoxide at 1500 ppm may lead to death, and the 15 minute exposure limit is 35 ppm for an hour. This is because without the extra oxygen molecule, CO has a 200 to 300 times great affinity for hemoglobin than oxygen does. So even if there is enough oxygen present, the CO will kick it off the hemoglobin and you will die. So it isn't just a simple asphyxiant any more. Roselie is correct about the CO being more than an asphyxiant. But the object of all this is to kill roaches, right? It's been awhile since college zoology, but I don't think roaches even have circulatory systems, let alone hemoglobin. I have frozen roaches in liquid nitrogen (when bored during a late night in the lab) only to have them thaw out and crawl away. Hardy little beasts. Does anyone even know whether depriving them of oxygen (with CO, CO2, N2, whatever) will kill them? I bet it's damn hard to do. Steve Christensen |
Damm Roaches
Is there any way to kill the eggs before they hatch? The tip
about no cardboard boxes on the boat is a good one that I have heard often. Another piece of advice I read once is to also be careful of paper labels on tins; apparently roaches also like to lay their eggs behind these if the label isn't well stuck on so it can be a good idea to take off such labels. If there was a way to kill eggs before they hatch then I have such a hate of roaches that I would seriously consider creating a decontamination chamber on deck somewhere and try to process any material coming onto the boat in case there were eggs in it. (I guess I might exclude guests from this procedure, especially if it involved noxious gasses). Does anyone have any thoughts on killing eggs? Is it possible? Also, what does a roach egg look like? In particular, how big are they? - Julian. |
Damm Roaches
Agreed. The bug bombs do provide a good test for the propane detector.
"Rosalie B." wrote in message ... x-no-archive:yes Steve Christensen wrote: In article , Rosalie B. says... x-no-archive:yes "Paul" wrote: Errr....why not just go buy a chunk of dryice, toss it in and close the boat up? One extra Oxygen molecule. But it's not available is it? I thought it would be bound up and unusable. We spray it on a fire to choke it out so I figured it may have oxygen but it's not available. For that matter, water has oxygen too doesn't it? But you can't breathe it since it's not available. I may be wrong ... I'm just wondering. Carbon dioxide (from dry ice) is a simple asphyxiant. If it displaces the oxygen in the air it will kill you, but it takes quite a bit of it. You can be exposed to 30,000 ppm for 15 minutes and still be OK. Carbon monoxide at 1500 ppm may lead to death, and the 15 minute exposure limit is 35 ppm for an hour. This is because without the extra oxygen molecule, CO has a 200 to 300 times great affinity for hemoglobin than oxygen does. So even if there is enough oxygen present, the CO will kick it off the hemoglobin and you will die. So it isn't just a simple asphyxiant any more. Roselie is correct about the CO being more than an asphyxiant. But the object of all this is to kill roaches, right? It's been awhile since college zoology, but I don't think roaches even have circulatory systems, let alone hemoglobin. I have frozen roaches in liquid nitrogen (when bored during a late night in the lab) only to have them thaw out and crawl away. Hardy little beasts. Does anyone even know whether depriving them of oxygen (with CO, CO2, N2, whatever) will kill them? I bet it's damn hard to do. I used to teach middle school science and I asked the 7th grade students to make an insect collection. In the old days, we used carbon tet to kill them, but that's not available anymore because of the ozone layer thing. So the kids had to freeze them. Unfortunately some insects are very hard to kill by freezing - it was quite common for the wasps to come to after having been mounted in the collection box - and boy were they mad!!! A determined wasp could sometimes get off the pin. We didn't get roaches much. Ticks (which aren't insects of course) are also hard to kill and we would occasionally drown them or the children would pick them off their horses and kill them by zapping them with the end of the electric fence. I think the boric acid is really the best solution which offers the least possibility of your killing yourself. or blowing up your boat (those insect bombs are often quite flammable when the propellant is propane). grandma Rosalie |
Damm Roaches
Egg size depends on the species. Those big tree roaches (Palmetto bugs for
you FL folks) have an egg case about 3/8" long, dark brown. Who knows what the German cockroach eggs look like. They're almost microscopic when they hatch. I know this from recent experience! For dry foodstuffs, you can microwave it when you bring it on the boat, but obviously this doesn't work with metal stuff. I've also heard that when you store rice, flour, etc., seal up a little piece of dry ice with it and the CO2 will kill them. However, how many of us carry dry ice in the real world? There are some roach baits out there that claim to sterilize the little buggers so that they don't make eggs, or at least they don't hatch. "Julian" wrote in message ... Is there any way to kill the eggs before they hatch? The tip about no cardboard boxes on the boat is a good one that I have heard often. Another piece of advice I read once is to also be careful of paper labels on tins; apparently roaches also like to lay their eggs behind these if the label isn't well stuck on so it can be a good idea to take off such labels. If there was a way to kill eggs before they hatch then I have such a hate of roaches that I would seriously consider creating a decontamination chamber on deck somewhere and try to process any material coming onto the boat in case there were eggs in it. (I guess I might exclude guests from this procedure, especially if it involved noxious gasses). Does anyone have any thoughts on killing eggs? Is it possible? Also, what does a roach egg look like? In particular, how big are they? - Julian. |
Damm Roaches
Horace Brownbag wrote:
I went through a period where we were tired of throwing out the roach infected food...so we ate with our eyes closed. No thanks.... I shared your prejudice as a child. But then my job took me aboard one of our rich uncle sam's big grey yachts. I was sitting in the wardroom at near midnight yearning for a snack when an officer came in with a nice steaming bowl of soup. Where? Midrats, down on the mess deck. Off I went to get in the line, my mouth literally watering at the soup's scent; but when I got to the big whaddacallit of soup there were a dozen or so roaches swimming in it!! Noting my hesitancy a sailor said "Here, lemme show you. Dip the ladle to the bottom, shake it back and forth, then pull it up quickly!" With that he matched word with deed and handed me a roachless bowl of soup which, acknowledging that I'd been eating out of that same "mess" for days, I promptly ate with great enjoyment. Sorry to tell y'all this but Ms Rosalie's right: almost everything we eat contains insect and/or rodent parts and droppings. |
Damm Roaches
I shared your prejudice as a child. But then my job took me aboard one
of our rich uncle sam's big grey yachts. I was sitting in the wardroom at near midnight yearning for a snack when an officer came in with a nice steaming bowl of soup. Where? Midrats, down on the mess deck. Off I went to get in the line, my mouth literally watering at the soup's scent; but when I got to the big whaddacallit of soup there were a dozen or so roaches swimming in it!! Noting my hesitancy a sailor said "Here, lemme show you. Dip the ladle to the bottom, shake it back and forth, then pull it up quickly!" With that he matched word with deed and handed me a roachless bowl of soup which, acknowledging that I'd been eating out of that same "mess" for days, I promptly ate with great enjoyment. I have been on one of those yachts and noticed the bread. Those weren't caraway seeds. What is a weevil or two. Added protein. Sorry to tell y'all this but Ms Rosalie's right: almost everything we eat contains insect and/or rodent parts and droppings. Sometimes where you least expect it. Leanne S/V Fundy |
Damm Roaches
"Horace Brownbag" wrote in message
... On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:53:18 GMT, "Doug Kanter" wrote: "Jack Rye" .# wrote in message news:gXVlb.33432$Rd4.2825@fed1read07... Thanks. Don't mined if I do. Cheers, and may I toast you on such an astute observation. Dirty secret. If I'm up at 4:00 AM because the neighbor's dog is out making noise, I'll sometimes dose my cat (Rosie the Horrible) with catnip, let her out, and toss cat treats along the fenceline. Drives the friggin' dog nuts, and there seems to be no limit as to how much the the cat's willing to spend along that fence. The dog ends up with its neck and legs completely wrapped in its chain. Much more fun than calling the cops to enforce the noise ordinance, which doesn't work most of the time anyway. I wouldn't call it in as a noise violation. I'd call animal control. If they are that irritating there is a possibility of abuse. I think there would be a greater probability of achieving a favorable result. Interesting point. Frankly, my definition of dog abuse is letting average people introduce two dogs for purposes of making puppies. For this reason, my cat's vet has stopped using the term "golden retriever". She calls them "hip problems". |
Damm Roaches
"Keith" wrote in message
... Boy, where was THIS discussion when I had a barking dog as a neighbor. None now that I live on the boat, but I sure would have used these ideas! Well, let's continue collecting ideas. Here's one: Cook a large northern pike and give it to the bad dog - the whole fish. Ever seen the Y-bones of a pike's skeleton? |
Damm Roaches
"Vito" wrote in message
... Sorry to tell y'all this but Ms Rosalie's right: almost everything we eat contains insect and/or rodent parts and droppings. There are actually printed guides for "permissible levels of insect parts" for food products. Candy is especially interesting, for obvious reasons. Anyone who thinks Hershey can cook up sugar and chocolate all day and not attract ants is a complete idiot. My GF grew up in Yauco, in SW Puerto Rico. Her housing development was built 20 years ago on top of old sugar cane plantations. Nice house, nice neighborhood, but the ants never left. You can wipe down the entire kitchen with Lysol or bleach, walk away, and 20 minutes later, there'll be ants on the counter, looking for whatever it is they're looking for. They're tiny, and they wipe up nicely with a damp paper towel. It bothered me on the first visit, but it was obvious that her mother was as obsessive about a clean kitchen as I am, and everywhere I went, people had the same problem. The standard comment was "Of course...everyone has them". I think we worry too much about some bugs. |
Damm Roaches
"Julian" wrote in message
... If there was a way to kill eggs before they hatch then I have such a hate of roaches that I would seriously consider creating a decontamination chamber on deck somewhere and try to process any material coming onto the boat in case there were eggs in it. Hopefully, you'd also plan to wash everything you decontaminated before your children touched it, right? And things like boxes of noodles wouldn't be processed that way. I assume you know that there never has been, nor will there ever be a long term study of the effects of pesticides, especially on children. |
Damm Roaches
"Keith" wrote in message
... For dry foodstuffs, you can microwave it when you bring it on the boat, but obviously this doesn't work with metal stuff. I've also heard that when you store rice, flour, etc., seal up a little piece of dry ice with it and the CO2 will kill them. However, how many of us carry dry ice in the real world? There are plenty of truly airtight containers available into which you can transfer dry goods before bringing them aboard. The simplest and best are Ball canning jars, if you don't have little kids who can't manage glass safely. In addition to the usual ring and cap lids, which are really meant for canning, they also make plastic lids to fit both sizes of jars. In the same section of the supermarket, you can usually find funnels made especially to fit the jars, to make it much easier to pour stuff into them. |
Damm Roaches
anonymous wrote:
Wrong again, I'm afraid. Nothing wrong with breathing carbon dioxide so long as you're also breathing in enough O2 with it. CO is a poison. CO2 is simply an inert gas. I guess my point being...toss a LARGE chunk into your boat. Close the boat up, no air currents then. CO2 is heavier than air (I'm pretty sure) and as it desolidifies it settles into the hull and pushes the air up until it reaches a level where the hull is no longer watertight. From there on down everything is exposed to high concentrations of CO2 and low concentrations of O2. -- Every path has its puddle. |
Damm Roaches
I haven't had a roach in my living space in thirty years. When I move
in I take a box of baking soda and sprinkle it behind and under everything. A little extra in the galley spaces, mate. |
Damm Roaches
Paul
They'd just don scuba equipment and go wreck diving. :-) Paul "Paul" wrote in message able.rogers.com... Brilliant idea, but why not just remove the transom plug and drown the buggers?. |
Damm Roaches
The easiest way to get rid of the bugs is to buy about a half gallon of Boric
Acid powder. Spread it under all the cabinets, shelves and anywhere you think the roaches might go that is out of your way. It can stay there for months. The roaches walk through it and carry it back to their home. It will kill them all and keep them gone for yrs. Just leave the Boric acid there. |
Damm Roaches
x-no-archive:yes
"Doug Kanter" wrote: "Vito" wrote in message ... Sorry to tell y'all this but Ms Rosalie's right: almost everything we eat contains insect and/or rodent parts and droppings. There are actually printed guides for "permissible levels of insect parts" for food products. Candy is especially interesting, for obvious reasons. Anyone who thinks Hershey can cook up sugar and chocolate all day and not attract ants is a complete idiot. My GF grew up in Yauco, in SW Puerto Rico. Her housing development was built 20 years ago on top of old sugar cane plantations. Nice house, nice neighborhood, but the ants never left. You can wipe down the entire kitchen with Lysol or bleach, walk away, and 20 minutes later, there'll be ants on the counter, looking for whatever it is they're looking for. They're tiny, and they wipe up nicely with a damp paper towel. It bothered me on the first visit, but it was obvious that her mother was as obsessive about a clean kitchen as I am, and everywhere I went, people had the same problem. The standard comment was "Of course...everyone has them". I think we worry too much about some bugs. Yes I agree. When we lived in Key West we had three kinds of ants - sweets ants who would be all over the counter the day after we sliced a watermelon there, fat or meat eating ants, and crazy ants. The crazy ants appeared mostly in the bathroom, and they ran around like crazy - never appeared to be going anywhere in particular. When we lived in Pensacola the ants took up residence in the shower head. Since my husband took 'Navy showers', he would inevitably get sprayed with ants when he took his morning shower. I guess eventually the ants moved elsewhere, or else my husband learned to run the shower for a couple of seconds before he got into it. Ants are very clean and I don't mind them much as long as they don't bite me. I don't like fire ants. grandma Rosalie |
Damm Roaches
I hear you, Tim. I use the same method and swear by it. But it's not roaches
I'm keeping at bay, it's Bengal Tigers. And by god it works! Haven't had one in my living spaces, ever. -- Karin Conover-Lewis Fair and Balanced since 1959 klc dot lewis at gte dot net (old -- don't use) klc dot lewis at centurytel dot net (new) "Tim Cole" wrote in message ... I haven't had a roach in my living space in thirty years. When I move in I take a box of baking soda and sprinkle it behind and under everything. A little extra in the galley spaces, mate. |
Damm Roaches
Thanks for helping straighten out my memory :^)
Larry Demers Jack Rye wrote: Phosgene COC12 also called Carbonyl Chloride. First came into use during World War 1. Where it was used alone or mixed with Chlorine. Inhalation of the gas causes sever lung injury. With the full effect appearing several hours after exposure. Carbon Monoxide and Chlorine in the presence of a catalyst produces Phosgene. Phosgene reacts with water to form Carbon Dioxide and Hydrochloric Acid. Phosgene COC12 also called Carbonyl Chloride. a colorless, chemically reactive, highly toxic gas. Having an odor like that of musty hay. Jack "Larry Demers" wrote in message ... I thought that mixing ammonia and chlorine produced Phosgene gas..as you say..exceedingly deadly. Jack Rye wrote: Here is one of my best tricks at getting rid of roaches on a boat. Make sure that you can open all the windows and hatches from outside the boat. You do not want to go inside the boat to open the hatches. Put a 5 gallon container inside the boat with a few fans to circulate the air. Pour equal parts of Clorox and Ammonia into the five gallon container. Now run like hell and get away from the boat. Clorox and Ammonia mixed together produces a vary deadly substance called Chlorine Gas. Chlorine gas is odorless and colorless, and highly deadly. Chlorine Gas will kill everything and anything in a matter of a minutes. Many a house wife has died from mixing the two chemicals together by accident. I MUST REPEAT CLOROX AND AMMONIA MIXED IN EVEN SMALL AMOUNTS WILL KILL YOU VARY QUICKLY. The generator trick works well and the smell will be gone after airing out the boat. Jack "Jack Rye" .# wrote in message news:WQSlb.33413$Rd4.31832@fed1read07... Because they are cold-blooded organisms, insects do not survive very well in extreme cold or hot temperatures. Each insect species has certain temperature and humidity conditions where it thrives. Although there are some differences between species, it should come as no surprise that our domestic cockroaches are best adapted to temperatures that we maintain in our homes. They do not develop or reproduce when temperatures are too cold (below 45degrees F) or too hot (above 115degrees F). Hot and cold temperatures can be very effective in killing cockroaches, but the adverse temperatures must be maintained for a period of time. Hot and cold treatments are also most effective when they "shock" the cockroaches' system. If cold temperatures are gradually lowered, insects have physiological mechanisms that allow them to survive the cold. But, if you take a jar of cockroaches from room temperature and put it into a sub-zero freezer, the insects will be dead within a half hour. They just cannot adapt that quickly. Because cockroaches cannot survive temperatures above 115degrees F to 120degrees F, it is possible to use heat to eradicate cockroaches from restaurants and food service establishments. After all heat sensitive equipment is removed from the building, the temperature is increased to about 140-150degrees F for five to six hours. It may not be possible for the homeowner to increase the heat that much inside the home. But if a small, infested appliance has many small crevices and can withstand 150degrees F heat, a similar procedure can be used. The procedure is simple -- place the heat-proof metal appliance in an oven, and after several hours at 150degrees F, the roaches will be dead. Cold can also be used to kill cockroaches, but it takes a prolonged exposure to low temperatures to kill egg cases. Appliances or furniture can be left in a garage when temperatures are below 0degrees F for several days. If moving, leaving possessions in a truck or van will do the same thing. Infestations in wall voids or indoor cavities can be subjected to extreme cold by using a CO2 (carbon dioxide) gas canister. This will freeze a localized area. Infested appliances can also be fumigated with CO2. Place it in a plastic bag or other airtight container and inject carbon dioxide gas. Allow freezing to occur. If a small item can be subjected to freezing, it also can be placed in a freezer for several hours (or overnight) to kill the cockroaches. Jack "Steve Christensen" wrote in message ... In article , Rosalie B. says... x-no-archive:yes "Paul" wrote: Errr....why not just go buy a chunk of dryice, toss it in and close the boat up? One extra Oxygen molecule. But it's not available is it? I thought it would be bound up and unusable. We spray it on a fire to choke it out so I figured it may have oxygen but it's not available. For that matter, water has oxygen too doesn't it? But you can't breathe it since it's not available. I may be wrong ... I'm just wondering. Carbon dioxide (from dry ice) is a simple asphyxiant. If it displaces the oxygen in the air it will kill you, but it takes quite a bit of it. You can be exposed to 30,000 ppm for 15 minutes and still be OK. Carbon monoxide at 1500 ppm may lead to death, and the 15 minute exposure limit is 35 ppm for an hour. This is because without the extra oxygen molecule, CO has a 200 to 300 times great affinity for hemoglobin than oxygen does. So even if there is enough oxygen present, the CO will kick it off the hemoglobin and you will die. So it isn't just a simple asphyxiant any more. Roselie is correct about the CO being more than an asphyxiant. But the object of all this is to kill roaches, right? It's been awhile since college zoology, but I don't think roaches even have circulatory systems, let alone hemoglobin. I have frozen roaches in liquid nitrogen (when bored during a late night in the lab) only to have them thaw out and crawl away. Hardy little beasts. Does anyone even know whether depriving them of oxygen (with CO, CO2, N2, whatever) will kill them? I bet it's damn hard to do. Steve Christensen |
Damm Roaches
"Doug Kanter" wrote in message ...
"Julian" wrote in message ... If there was a way to kill eggs before they hatch then I have such a hate of roaches that I would seriously consider creating a decontamination chamber on deck somewhere and try to process any material coming onto the boat in case there were eggs in it. Hopefully, you'd also plan to wash everything you decontaminated before your children touched it, right? And things like boxes of noodles wouldn't be processed that way. I don't have kids, but a sensible warning anyway. And yes, definitely lots of washing afterwards. - Julian |
Damm Roaches
"Keith" wrote in message ...
Egg size depends on the species. Those big tree roaches (Palmetto bugs for you FL folks) have an egg case about 3/8" long, dark brown. Aarghh!!! I'm almost afraid to ask, but how big is an adult tree roach? - Julian |
Damm Roaches
ROTFLMAO
"Doug Kanter" wrote in message ... "Horace Brownbag" wrote in message ... On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:53:18 GMT, "Doug Kanter" wrote: "Jack Rye" .# wrote in message news:gXVlb.33432$Rd4.2825@fed1read07... Thanks. Don't mined if I do. Cheers, and may I toast you on such an astute observation. Dirty secret. If I'm up at 4:00 AM because the neighbor's dog is out making noise, I'll sometimes dose my cat (Rosie the Horrible) with catnip, let her out, and toss cat treats along the fenceline. Drives the friggin' dog nuts, and there seems to be no limit as to how much the the cat's willing to spend along that fence. The dog ends up with its neck and legs completely wrapped in its chain. Much more fun than calling the cops to enforce the noise ordinance, which doesn't work most of the time anyway. I wouldn't call it in as a noise violation. I'd call animal control. If they are that irritating there is a possibility of abuse. I think there would be a greater probability of achieving a favorable result. Interesting point. Frankly, my definition of dog abuse is letting average people introduce two dogs for purposes of making puppies. For this reason, my cat's vet has stopped using the term "golden retriever". She calls them "hip problems". |
Damm Roaches
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 02:34:21 +0100, "Julian"
wrote: "Keith" wrote in message ... Egg size depends on the species. Those big tree roaches (Palmetto bugs for you FL folks) have an egg case about 3/8" long, dark brown. Aarghh!!! I'm almost afraid to ask, but how big is an adult tree roach? Most of the big ones I see are about 2 inches, maybe a bit bigger if I was generous with the antennae and wing tips. The ones who land on you when you least expect are around 4 inches and even bigger when it's dark, I swear....but if I pin mounted one of these huge beasts and put a measure to it... it might be a bit over 2. ....now the wharf roaches in Fiji. They are as big as puppy dogs. |
Damm Roaches
I came up with a roach reducer (rather than claiming that it really
eliminates them) accidentally. I poured some hot grease into a tin can to let the grease cool and solidify before throwing it away. The next day when I looked into the can, there were several roaches caught in the grease. Apparently they were attracted by the smell, but when they got into the grease they could not get back out. Just to experiment I left the grease can out and within a few days it was practically filled with roaches. Kind of the "greasy spoon" equivalent of the "roach hotel." Lee Huddleston s/v Truelove |
Damm Roaches
"Lee Huddleston" writes: I came up with a roach reducer (rather than claiming that it really eliminates them) accidentally. I poured some hot grease into a tin can to let the grease cool and solidify before throwing it away. The next day when I looked into the can, there were several roaches caught in the grease. Apparently they were attracted by the smell, but when they got into the grease they could not get back out. Just to experiment I left the grease can out and within a few days it was practically filled with roaches. Kind of the "greasy spoon" equivalent of the "roach hotel." An old and very effective method. Another use for empty coffee cans. -- Lew S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland) Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures |
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