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Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
I am not sure which is better the Dutchman or Lazy jack Sail Flaking
Systems. Other prefer to have in the mast main fuller for cruising. I am looking at this new boat and cannot make up my mind which system to get. I wonder if someone can offer some comments based on their own experience. TIA |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
In article ,
wrote: I am not sure which is better the Dutchman or Lazy jack Sail Flaking Systems. Other prefer to have in the mast main fuller for cruising. I am looking at this new boat and cannot make up my mind which system to get. I wonder if someone can offer some comments based on their own experience. TIA I have owned a Dutchman and Lazy Jack system. My Dad had Roller Furling. His system fouled once which given his age was a b_tch. Dutchman and Lazy Jacks work great. For semi-single handing, either makes life easier. However, both really require heading into the wind to drop the sail. I believe there are a few Lazy Jack systems (e.g., EZ Jax and Jiffy Jax, etc.). I prefer my Dutchman for two reasons. First, nothing is more magical than having one's sail automatically flake on the boom. Not only does the sail stay up, it stores itself automatically after a brief training period. Elegant and time saving, especially with a longer boat. Second, my Lazy Jack system required going forward to unclip the lines (if I did not clip them to the mast they rattled around or flapped against the main). My Dutchman is always there, invisible and silent. I do have to adjust the topping lift before and after raising and lowering the main, but I rigged the line back to my cockpit and it takes seconds. Neither system interferes with reefing (if anything, the Dutchman helps keep the excess sail out of the way). If I did not respond to a concern you have for these two systems, just ask. Harlan -- To respond, obviously drop the "nospan"? |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
In article ,
Harlan Lachman wrote: In article , wrote: I am not sure which is better the Dutchman or Lazy jack Sail Flaking Systems. Other prefer to have in the mast main fuller for cruising. I am looking at this new boat and cannot make up my mind which system to get. I wonder if someone can offer some comments based on their own experience. TIA I agree with everything Harlan said... I have the Dutchman on my boat... works great and the "training period" for the sail was very, very short. I've used LJs a lot, and I like them fine. My experience with them is that they tend to catch battens on the way up, which is really annoying, especially when single-handing. I just want to do it one time, not up/down, up/down. That's why I went with the Dutchman. Neither, as Harlan said will interfere with reefing, but I do like the Dutchman better here also... fewer lines in your face. The downside to the Dutchman is two-fold... you have to modify your main and you have to modify your sail cover. Thus, you can just slap on a new main when it needs to get replaced if you want to continue to use the Dutchman system. -- Capt. JG @@ www.sailnow.com |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
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Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
The comments on lazy jacks and the Dutchman are excellent.
furling mains They do jam at the worst times. I had one start to come out of the grove, which meant I could not unfurl the whole sail. Because battens cannnot be used, the roach is nil is negative. On boats with high roach mains, like Hunters, roller furling takes out a huge sail area. Jack -- __________________________________________________ Jack Dale ISPA Yachtmaster Offshore Instructor CYA Advanced Cruising Instructor Director, Swiftsure Sailing Academy http://www.swiftsuresailing.com __________________________________________________ wrote in message ... I am not sure which is better the Dutchman or Lazy jack Sail Flaking Systems. Other prefer to have in the mast main fuller for cruising. I am looking at this new boat and cannot make up my mind which system to get. I wonder if someone can offer some comments based on their own experience. TIA |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
In article ,
Harlan Lachman wrote: Cap JG, On my main sail cover, all they did was take my existing one, see where the dutchman lines showed up on the boom and sew in zippers to allow the lines to come out the top. IIRC, I have three on a J/100. What approach did you take? I did the exact same thing myself, except that I did the cutting and sewing... Not a bad job, depsite my lack of sewing machine skills. :-) I forgot that I did have to go to add a loose foot to my footless main but otherwise there were no mods and no one sailing her has seen any performance or sailing issues. You also point out one weakness of the furling main for those who like battens (especially full ones for light air). Don't most furling mains preclude battens? I was actually talking about getting hooked on the LJs while raising the main (no furler), but I believe that's true about not having them available for in-mast furlers. I supposed something could work for a boom furler... no experience with battens and furling mains, however. I also removed the dangling intermediate lines the last owner had on the main. The Dutchman does a nice job of keeping things tidy. -- Capt. JG @@ www.sailnow.com |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
On Feb 22, 3:37 am, wrote:
I am not sure which is better the Dutchman or Lazy jack Sail Flaking Systems. Other prefer to have in the mast main fuller for cruising. I am looking at this new boat and cannot make up my mind which system to get. I wonder if someone can offer some comments based on their own experience. TIA I had the Dutchman system on my recently sold boat and have sailed on boats with Lazy Jacks. My next boat will have Lazy Jacks without question. I would not use an in mast or in boom furling system. Although I have never used one, I have heard enough complaints about the difficulty of reefing in nasty conditions that safety would override conveniece. In mast reefing also means a big fat mast which means more windage, less effective main sail (due to greater disruption of air flow around the fat mast) and more weight aloft. All bad things in my opinion. I found the Dutchman and LJ systems were about the same in ease of use and had about the same level of sensitivety to wind direction when lowering (you need to head straight into the wind for both). The thing I didn't like about the Dutchman, besdes the need for widgets in the sail and additional seams/zippers in the sail cover, is that the lines are constantly rubbing against the sail. I got some chafing of the sail and also ended up with stains on the sails where the lines touch the sail. Not sure of the cause (rain water running down the lines concentrating the dirt??). This was after 2 years of moderate use. The biggest reason I prefer lazy jacks is because I am lazy and I love the lazy bags (there are various names for them but I am talking about the sail cover that is attached to the lower ends of he lazy jack lines and the boom). You simply drop the sail into the cover and then zip it up. No more removing, stowing and then replacing the sail cover on a regular basis. I imagine one of these boom mounted sail covers could be added to a dutchman rigged sail but you would then need additional lines to hold up the sides of the sail cover. -Greg |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
wrote in message
ps.com... On Feb 22, 3:37 am, wrote: I am not sure which is better the Dutchman or Lazy jack Sail Flaking Systems. Other prefer to have in the mast main fuller for cruising. I am looking at this new boat and cannot make up my mind which system to get. I wonder if someone can offer some comments based on their own experience. TIA I had the Dutchman system on my recently sold boat and have sailed on boats with Lazy Jacks. My next boat will have Lazy Jacks without question. I would not use an in mast or in boom furling system. Although I have never used one, I have heard enough complaints about the difficulty of reefing in nasty conditions that safety would override conveniece. In mast reefing also means a big fat mast which means more windage, less effective main sail (due to greater disruption of air flow around the fat mast) and more weight aloft. All bad things in my opinion. I found the Dutchman and LJ systems were about the same in ease of use and had about the same level of sensitivety to wind direction when lowering (you need to head straight into the wind for both). The thing I didn't like about the Dutchman, besdes the need for widgets in the sail and additional seams/zippers in the sail cover, is that the lines are constantly rubbing against the sail. I got some chafing of the sail and also ended up with stains on the sails where the lines touch the sail. Not sure of the cause (rain water running down the lines concentrating the dirt??). This was after 2 years of moderate use. The biggest reason I prefer lazy jacks is because I am lazy and I love the lazy bags (there are various names for them but I am talking about the sail cover that is attached to the lower ends of he lazy jack lines and the boom). You simply drop the sail into the cover and then zip it up. No more removing, stowing and then replacing the sail cover on a regular basis. I imagine one of these boom mounted sail covers could be added to a dutchman rigged sail but you would then need additional lines to hold up the sides of the sail cover. -Greg It's interesting how different things are important to people... I don't have a problem with lowering the sail with either system, but I've had problems with battens catching on the Lazy Jacks just about every time I've used them. I've also not seen the need to be dead into the wind to raise the sail with the Dutchman... close seems to work fine. Same goes with dropping the sail.. I'm not a big fan of furling mains either, but if I had to pick, I'd pick the in-boom system. At least you can drop the sail if there's a problem with the halyard. With the in-mast species, you're pretty much stuck. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
On Feb 24, 3:15 am, "Capt. JG" wrote:
wrote in message It's interesting how different things are important to people... I don't have a problem with lowering the sail with either system, but I've had problems with battens catching on the Lazy Jacks just about every time I've used them. I've also not seen the need to be dead into the wind to raise the sail with the Dutchman... close seems to work fine. Same goes with dropping the sail.. We have the MackPack system but I've sailed straight jacks. Like you, I used to get the battens caught occasionally. However, on Flying Pig, we just drop them, pull them forward, hoist, and then position them loosely again to restore the reefing hook. Loose lets them not get involved in sail shape, but allows reefing. When it's time to drop entirely we just snug them up, drop the sail, pull the zipper on its string, and we're covered up. The stack pack is similar except that they have a batten in the top of the cover to keep it up on the jacks; ours has grommets, and is kept up by tension. I really like the concept and prefer it to the dutchman type for all the reasons previously cited... L8R Skip Morgan 461 #2 Disaster link: http://ipphotos.com/FlyingPig.asp SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message
ups.com... On Feb 24, 3:15 am, "Capt. JG" wrote: wrote in message It's interesting how different things are important to people... I don't have a problem with lowering the sail with either system, but I've had problems with battens catching on the Lazy Jacks just about every time I've used them. I've also not seen the need to be dead into the wind to raise the sail with the Dutchman... close seems to work fine. Same goes with dropping the sail.. We have the MackPack system but I've sailed straight jacks. Like you, I used to get the battens caught occasionally. However, on Flying Pig, we just drop them, pull them forward, hoist, and then position them loosely again to restore the reefing hook. Well, that's not a problem if you have more than one pair of hands. The extra effort doesn't seem worth it for something that's supposed to just deal with the sails. It's yet another thing to do to get the sails raised or lowered. Loose lets them not get involved in sail shape, but allows reefing. When it's time to drop entirely we just snug them up, drop the sail, pull the zipper on its string, and we're covered up. The stack pack is similar except that they have a batten in the top of the cover to keep it up on the jacks; ours has grommets, and is kept up by tension. I've used the stack pack also... it's ok but then there's this bag that's just sitting there, and if for some reason the sail doesn't go in completely, it can be a hassle pushing it in. I really like the concept and prefer it to the dutchman type for all the reasons previously cited... L8R Skip -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
I wonder what Beneteau means by Semi Full Battens mainsail with Lazy Jacks.
Why semi full batten? Does it help the battens from catching on the Lazy Jacks? "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... "Skip Gundlach" wrote in message ups.com... On Feb 24, 3:15 am, "Capt. JG" wrote: wrote in message It's interesting how different things are important to people... I don't have a problem with lowering the sail with either system, but I've had problems with battens catching on the Lazy Jacks just about every time I've used them. I've also not seen the need to be dead into the wind to raise the sail with the Dutchman... close seems to work fine. Same goes with dropping the sail.. We have the MackPack system but I've sailed straight jacks. Like you, I used to get the battens caught occasionally. However, on Flying Pig, we just drop them, pull them forward, hoist, and then position them loosely again to restore the reefing hook. Well, that's not a problem if you have more than one pair of hands. The extra effort doesn't seem worth it for something that's supposed to just deal with the sails. It's yet another thing to do to get the sails raised or lowered. Loose lets them not get involved in sail shape, but allows reefing. When it's time to drop entirely we just snug them up, drop the sail, pull the zipper on its string, and we're covered up. The stack pack is similar except that they have a batten in the top of the cover to keep it up on the jacks; ours has grommets, and is kept up by tension. I've used the stack pack also... it's ok but then there's this bag that's just sitting there, and if for some reason the sail doesn't go in completely, it can be a hassle pushing it in. I really like the concept and prefer it to the dutchman type for all the reasons previously cited... L8R Skip -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
wrote in message ... I wonder what Beneteau means by Semi Full Battens mainsail with Lazy Jacks. Why semi full batten? Does it help the battens from catching on the Lazy Jacks? Essie has "semi full battens" in her mainsail. No, it doesn't help the battens from catching on the lazyjacks -- it's meant to gain the benefits of full battens, but without the need for battcars. The battens are long, but don't extend all the way to the mast. I like them -- they help maintain good sail shape, something that regular length battens can't do, only being there to support the roach. |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
wrote in message
... I wonder what Beneteau means by Semi Full Battens mainsail with Lazy Jacks. Why semi full batten? Does it help the battens from catching on the Lazy Jacks? I would think it would help minimally, but most of my experience with battens/LJs have been with battens that are not full. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
One of our club members bought a 36-foot sailboat equipped with a Dutchman
system last year. His comment after one season is that he could use a downhaul to get the main down. The main does not come down as easy and flaking as advised. It could be that the Dutchman system is not properly installed or fully tuned up yet. Nonetheless, it gave me food for thought. "Charlie Morgan" wrote in message ... On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 13:42:44 GMT, wrote: I wonder what Beneteau means by Semi Full Battens mainsail with Lazy Jacks. Why semi full batten? Does it help the battens from catching on the Lazy Jacks? When reading Jon's opinions, bear in mind that he has a close friend on the payroll of the Dutchman, and Jon gets his Dutchman products at a reduced price. Of course he thinks they are superior! CWM |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
"Capt. JG" wrote in message
... wrote in message ... I wonder what Beneteau means by Semi Full Battens mainsail with Lazy Jacks. Why semi full batten? Does it help the battens from catching on the Lazy Jacks? I would think it would help minimally, but most of my experience with battens/LJs have been with battens that are not full. As a follow up, I should say that LJs are definitely preferable to not having anything. When I got my most recent boat, it had nothing, and going from scratch had the local sail loft (Quantum) evaluate the main as appropriately "young" for the Dutchman (it was), sell me the unit, modify the main, and install it. They were very inexpensive and it sure was easier than trying to rig it myself. I may have mentioned earlier, the training was painless... a few times. I think a lot of credit has to go to the previous owner who was very consistent with his sail flaking. The last boat also had nothing, but was so small I made and put my own LJs on her. They worked but did occasionally snag one of the particial battens. It wasn't a big deal because I could usually just reach up and fix it. I can't do that on my Sabre. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
"Capt. JG" wrote in message ... "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... wrote in message ... I wonder what Beneteau means by Semi Full Battens mainsail with Lazy Jacks. Why semi full batten? Does it help the battens from catching on the Lazy Jacks? I would think it would help minimally, but most of my experience with battens/LJs have been with battens that are not full. As a follow up, I should say that LJs are definitely preferable to not having anything. When I got my most recent boat, it had nothing, and going from scratch had the local sail loft (Quantum) evaluate the main as appropriately "young" for the Dutchman (it was), sell me the unit, modify the main, and install it. They were very inexpensive and it sure was easier than trying to rig it myself. I may have mentioned earlier, the training was painless... a few times. I think a lot of credit has to go to the previous owner who was very consistent with his sail flaking. The last boat also had nothing, but was so small I made and put my own LJs on her. They worked but did occasionally snag one of the particial battens. It wasn't a big deal because I could usually just reach up and fix it. I can't do that on my Sabre. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com My LazyJacks like to snag if I'm being a LazyJill. As long as I go forward and slack them off, then pull the leeward LJ forward with a bungee before hoisting sail, all's Jake. |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
In writes:
I wonder what Beneteau means by Semi Full Battens mainsail with Lazy Jacks. Why semi full batten? Does it help the battens from catching on the Lazy Jacks? Some sailmakers prefer to make the two lowest battens only half the lenght or nearer three quarters of sailwidth. It helps in reducing the friction as the "wagons" on the end of the longest battens tend to be pushed a bit to the side and thus have more friction. To make it easier to hoist the sail between the lazyjacks you have to hang the lazyjacks about one foot from the mast to the spreaders and then point the boat straight into the wind when hoistin the sail. - Lauri Tarkkonen "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... "Skip Gundlach" wrote in message ups.com... On Feb 24, 3:15 am, "Capt. JG" wrote: wrote in message It's interesting how different things are important to people... I don't have a problem with lowering the sail with either system, but I've had problems with battens catching on the Lazy Jacks just about every time I've used them. I've also not seen the need to be dead into the wind to raise the sail with the Dutchman... close seems to work fine. Same goes with dropping the sail.. We have the MackPack system but I've sailed straight jacks. Like you, I used to get the battens caught occasionally. However, on Flying Pig, we just drop them, pull them forward, hoist, and then position them loosely again to restore the reefing hook. Well, that's not a problem if you have more than one pair of hands. The extra effort doesn't seem worth it for something that's supposed to just deal with the sails. It's yet another thing to do to get the sails raised or lowered. Loose lets them not get involved in sail shape, but allows reefing. When it's time to drop entirely we just snug them up, drop the sail, pull the zipper on its string, and we're covered up. The stack pack is similar except that they have a batten in the top of the cover to keep it up on the jacks; ours has grommets, and is kept up by tension. I've used the stack pack also... it's ok but then there's this bag that's just sitting there, and if for some reason the sail doesn't go in completely, it can be a hassle pushing it in. I really like the concept and prefer it to the dutchman type for all the reasons previously cited... L8R Skip -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
In writes:
One of our club members bought a 36-foot sailboat equipped with a Dutchman system last year. His comment after one season is that he could use a downhaul to get the main down. The main does not come down as easy and flaking as advised. It could be that the Dutchman system is not properly installed or fully tuned up yet. Nonetheless, it gave me food for thought. For the Dutchman to work properly you have to have the vertical parts properly lined with the holes in the sail, the grommets big enough and the rope smooth and the lenght of the chord you splice the vertical parts must be such that when you ease the hallyard the weight of the boom will make everything reasonably tight, not too tight. Then you hope that the gravity will not fail you. :-). Many conditions. If not properly set up, the gravity is not enough to pull the sail down. - Lauri Tarkkonen "Charlie Morgan" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 13:42:44 GMT, wrote: I wonder what Beneteau means by Semi Full Battens mainsail with Lazy Jacks. Why semi full batten? Does it help the battens from catching on the Lazy Jacks? When reading Jon's opinions, bear in mind that he has a close friend on the payroll of the Dutchman, and Jon gets his Dutchman products at a reduced price. Of course he thinks they are superior! CWM |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 10:23:36 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote: As a follow up, I should say that LJs are definitely preferable to not having anything. I agree with that, I think they're a big help getting the main under control. On my old Cal-34 we rigged something that I called "poor man's lazy jacks". Basically they were just two pieces of 3/8ths shock cord run along each side of the boom, each with a small loop tied in the middle of the shock cord. When I wanted to use the "lazy jacks" I'd bring a halyard aft around the shrouds on each side of the boat, clip each halyard to the loop in the shock cord, and then hoist the halyard up about 15 ft forming a triangle with the shock cord on each side of the boom. It was very effective, cost next to nothing, and was out of the way when you didn't need it. |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
In article ,
Dave wrote: On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 18:15:46 GMT, said: His comment after one season is that he could use a downhaul to get the main down. The main does not come down as easy and flaking as advised. It could be that the Dutchman system is not properly installed or fully tuned up yet. Nonetheless, it gave me food for thought. My one experience with the system was on one of Martin's boats last winter. It worked very much as advertised. Let out the halyard, and the sail neatly flaked itself on top of the mast. No hassle--just put on the sail cover. Of course, if it flakes itself on top of the mast, you'll be having other problems. g Obviously, if the sail would otherwise not drop easily when you let out the halyard, the Dutchman system isn't going to help. You're dealing with a separate issue. Sure thing. My one hesitation about the system is that it's said not to work as well when the sail gets older. Actually, I don't think that's the case. The old sail will retain it's memory, even when ragged. I think the biggest downside to the system is that you have to modify the new main. The "fishing line" used to channel the sail does get worn, and it needs to be replaced every few years, but it's cheap and easy to do. There is an issue of getting dirt marks on the sail from water running down the line, but so far has been minimal for me. -- Capt. JG @@ www.sailnow.com |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
In article ,
Lauri Tarkkonen wrote: In writes: One of our club members bought a 36-foot sailboat equipped with a Dutchman system last year. His comment after one season is that he could use a downhaul to get the main down. The main does not come down as easy and flaking as advised. It could be that the Dutchman system is not properly installed or fully tuned up yet. Nonetheless, it gave me food for thought. For the Dutchman to work properly you have to have the vertical parts properly lined with the holes in the sail, the grommets big enough and the rope smooth and the lenght of the chord you splice the vertical parts must be such that when you ease the hallyard the weight of the boom will make everything reasonably tight, not too tight. Then you hope that the gravity will not fail you. :-). Many conditions. If not properly set up, the gravity is not enough to pull the sail down. - Lauri Tarkkonen Lauri, you're right... since I'm up at the mast when I drop the sail, I do occasionally have to give the luff a yank or two to get it going. And, I do usually have to give a flake a reset shake to get it "in the grove." FYI, the Charlie Morgan sockpuppet is a liar. I bought mine through Quantum out here. "Charlie Morgan" wrote in message When reading Jon's opinions, bear in mind that he has a close friend on the payroll of the Dutchman, and Jon gets his Dutchman products at a reduced price. Of course he thinks they are superior! -- Capt. JG @@ www.sailnow.com |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
"Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 10:23:36 -0800, "Capt. JG" wrote: As a follow up, I should say that LJs are definitely preferable to not having anything. I agree with that, I think they're a big help getting the main under control. On my old Cal-34 we rigged something that I called "poor man's lazy jacks". Basically they were just two pieces of 3/8ths shock cord run along each side of the boom, each with a small loop tied in the middle of the shock cord. When I wanted to use the "lazy jacks" I'd bring a halyard aft around the shrouds on each side of the boat, clip each halyard to the loop in the shock cord, and then hoist the halyard up about 15 ft forming a triangle with the shock cord on each side of the boom. It was very effective, cost next to nothing, and was out of the way when you didn't need it. Wayne, trying to picture this: You had separate LJ's on either side of the boom, each with their own dedicated halyard? Pretty clever if that's it. I like it. If I have to re-do Essie's LJ's some day, something like that might be just the thing. :-) |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
wrote in message
... One of our club members bought a 36-foot sailboat equipped with a Dutchman system last year. His comment after one season is that he could use a downhaul to get the main down. The main does not come down as easy and flaking as advised. It could be that the Dutchman system is not properly installed or fully tuned up yet. Nonetheless, it gave me food for thought. There's a good chance it's not set up properly as far as the flaking goes. Come down is probably some other issue. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:52:35 -0600, "KLC Lewis"
wrote: Wayne, trying to picture this: You had separate LJ's on either side of the boom, each with their own dedicated halyard? Pretty clever if that's it. I like it. If I have to re-do Essie's LJ's some day, something like that might be just the thing. :-) The halyards were only dedicated during the time that the LJs were needed, ie, during the mainsail drop. There were lots of spare halyards available since we were set up for racing and doing headsail changes on the fly. Once the mainsail was down and tied up, we'd ease off on the LJ halyards and lead them back forward. The shock cord would retract and lay flat against the boom until needed the next time. |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
"Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:52:35 -0600, "KLC Lewis" wrote: Wayne, trying to picture this: You had separate LJ's on either side of the boom, each with their own dedicated halyard? Pretty clever if that's it. I like it. If I have to re-do Essie's LJ's some day, something like that might be just the thing. :-) The halyards were only dedicated during the time that the LJs were needed, ie, during the mainsail drop. There were lots of spare halyards available since we were set up for racing and doing headsail changes on the fly. Once the mainsail was down and tied up, we'd ease off on the LJ halyards and lead them back forward. The shock cord would retract and lay flat against the boom until needed the next time. Okay, gotcha. I've a couple of spare halyards foward of the mainmast -- spinnaker halyard (drifter, actually) and staysail halyard. I suppose they could be used for that purpose, but they'd chafe with much use. And when I need to douse or reef the main in a hurry, it's awfully nice to have the LJ's there -- even if they're somewhat slack, without having to go forward and rig them up. But a couple of dedicated small halyards could be just the ticket, along with your shock cord sollution. My boat is a tangle of lines for this, lines for that, more lines for the other thing, with spares in case I might want to do something else. But I sure do have a lot of options. |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
"Dave" wrote in message
... On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:52:32 -0500, Charlie Morgan said: Jon is good friends with Conrad "Bart" Senior, who works for the Dutchman. And both were no doubt acquaintances of Norman Thomas. Therefore the Dutchman, Jon and Bart must all be Communists. Wait..... Didn't that sort of reasoning go out with a fellah named McCarthy. Jeez... I haven't been called a Communist in years. g What's with Chuckles? I guess he's POd because I plonked him. BTW, Bart lives on the East coast. I live on the West coast. I wish I did get an additional discount, but I did get a nice deal. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
In article ,
wrote: One of our club members bought a 36-foot sailboat equipped with a Dutchman system last year. His comment after one season is that he could use a downhaul to get the main down. The main does not come down as easy and flaking as advised. It could be that the Dutchman system is not properly installed or fully tuned up yet. Nonetheless, it gave me food for thought. "Charlie Morgan" wrote in message ... On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 13:42:44 GMT, wrote: I wonder what Beneteau means by Semi Full Battens mainsail with Lazy Jacks. Why semi full batten? Does it help the battens from catching on the Lazy Jacks? When reading Jon's opinions, bear in mind that he has a close friend on the payroll of the Dutchman, and Jon gets his Dutchman products at a reduced price. Of course he thinks they are superior! CWM I would want to know what he has attaching the main to the mast. I have some fancy Harken system that is smoother than a baby's b-tt. If there is resistance along the luff, the dutchman cannot help. harlan -- To respond, obviously drop the "nospan"? |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
"Harlan Lachman" wrote in message
... In article , Charlie Morgan wrote: On 25 Feb 2007 12:33:00 -0800, lid (Jonathan Ganz) wrote: In article , Lauri Tarkkonen wrote: In writes: One of our club members bought a 36-foot sailboat equipped with a Dutchman system last year. His comment after one season is that he could use a downhaul to get the main down. The main does not come down as easy and flaking as advised. It could be that the Dutchman system is not properly installed or fully tuned up yet. Nonetheless, it gave me food for thought. For the Dutchman to work properly you have to have the vertical parts properly lined with the holes in the sail, the grommets big enough and the rope smooth and the lenght of the chord you splice the vertical parts must be such that when you ease the hallyard the weight of the boom will make everything reasonably tight, not too tight. Then you hope that the gravity will not fail you. :-). Many conditions. If not properly set up, the gravity is not enough to pull the sail down. - Lauri Tarkkonen Lauri, you're right... since I'm up at the mast when I drop the sail, I do occasionally have to give the luff a yank or two to get it going. And, I do usually have to give a flake a reset shake to get it "in the grove." FYI, the Charlie Morgan sockpuppet is a liar. I bought mine through Quantum out here. Jon is good friends with Conrad "Bart" Senior, who works for the Dutchman. They have discussed the Dutchman system in newsgroups, and Bart openly offered Jon a discount. Anyone who thinks I'm lying can go to the Dutchmans website and find a photo of Dutchman employee Bart Senior there. If Jon procured his Dutchman system through Quantum it was done at a discount courtesy of Dutchman. CWM "Charlie Morgan" wrote in message When reading Jon's opinions, bear in mind that he has a close friend on the payroll of the Dutchman, and Jon gets his Dutchman products at a reduced price. Of course he thinks they are superior! Charley, I have no association with the Dutchman, get nothing for my posts or referrals and I love the darn thing. I have no problem raising or lowering because we carefully aligned the lines on the topping lift and got some fancy schmanzy system for slides on the mast. So Jon may or may not be biased. But the system is a great thing for performance sailors who want life to be simpler. I'm biased because it works. I have no association with Dutchman. I wish I did. Chuckles is a troll. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message ... You are simply incorrect, Dave. Bart was roundly castigated in another group by many people after he started a thread extolling the virtues of the Dutchman System, and slamming the alternatives. He WORKS for THE DUTCHMAN. Bart also offered readers of that group a "deal" on the Dutchman System, and Jon Ganz publically announced he was taking Bart up on his offer. Bart and Jon are pals, and Bart has even visited Jon out in California. We know that because Bart posted a public thank you to Jon in that other forum. How do you know what the normal royalty is for a Dutchman System? Maybe it's half of the normal retail installed price. This isn't a book or CD royalty of a dollar a copy. Jon has a cozy relationship with an Employee of Dutchman and he got a special "insider deal" on his system. I know you are also a personal friend of Bart's and have gone sailing with him. He even helped you deliver your boat to winter storage. So, really, your defense of Jon is as colored as his opinion of the Dutchman System. CWM For what it's worth, if I'm in the market for a product and that product is going to cost me the same amount whether I buy it from seller "A" or seller "B," and seller "B" is a friend or aquaintance who will benefit from the sale, I'll go with "B" every time. |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message ... On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:43:38 -0600, "KLC Lewis" wrote: "Charlie Morgan" wrote in message . .. You are simply incorrect, Dave. Bart was roundly castigated in another group by many people after he started a thread extolling the virtues of the Dutchman System, and slamming the alternatives. He WORKS for THE DUTCHMAN. Bart also offered readers of that group a "deal" on the Dutchman System, and Jon Ganz publically announced he was taking Bart up on his offer. Bart and Jon are pals, and Bart has even visited Jon out in California. We know that because Bart posted a public thank you to Jon in that other forum. How do you know what the normal royalty is for a Dutchman System? Maybe it's half of the normal retail installed price. This isn't a book or CD royalty of a dollar a copy. Jon has a cozy relationship with an Employee of Dutchman and he got a special "insider deal" on his system. I know you are also a personal friend of Bart's and have gone sailing with him. He even helped you deliver your boat to winter storage. So, really, your defense of Jon is as colored as his opinion of the Dutchman System. CWM For what it's worth, if I'm in the market for a product and that product is going to cost me the same amount whether I buy it from seller "A" or seller "B," and seller "B" is a friend or aquaintance who will benefit from the sale, I'll go with "B" every time. That's not what happened in this case. And that guy, Dave, who is defending Jon Ganz? His boat is, at this moment, sitting close enough to the Dutchman's office that the Dutchman could probably hit it with a rock, if he has a decent arm. Believe whatever you like. Some people like being hoodwinked by shysters. I brought up the issue because some people DO care about paid shills pretending to be independent satisfied customers. CWM Do you know that Jon Ganz is NOT a satisfied Dutchman Customer? Maybe he's just like that guy who liked the electric razor so much that he bought the company. |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
"Dave" wrote in message
... On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 23:13:25 -0500, Charlie Morgan said: It's very dishonest, and reflects badly on the product and it's maker. Charlie, I think you're way off base here. The major part of the cost for the system is not going to be the parts. It's going to be the sail maker's labor in modifying your main, modifying your sail cover and installing the system. Even a major break on the parts cost isn't going to make a big difference in the total cost. I assume Chuckles is talking about me, since he's obsessed with me, following my every word from newsgroup to newsgroup. You're right. The labor was the major part of the cost... I decided that since they were much more experienced with the Dutchman, it made sense to get them to do it. The only additional expense besides what they charged me was paying someone else to go up the mast. That was the cost of a lunch. I modified the sail cover myself. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
et... "Charlie Morgan" wrote in message ... You are simply incorrect, Dave. Bart was roundly castigated in another group by many people after he started a thread extolling the virtues of the Dutchman System, and slamming the alternatives. He WORKS for THE DUTCHMAN. Bart also offered readers of that group a "deal" on the Dutchman System, and Jon Ganz publically announced he was taking Bart up on his offer. Bart and Jon are pals, and Bart has even visited Jon out in California. We know that because Bart posted a public thank you to Jon in that other forum. How do you know what the normal royalty is for a Dutchman System? Maybe it's half of the normal retail installed price. This isn't a book or CD royalty of a dollar a copy. Jon has a cozy relationship with an Employee of Dutchman and he got a special "insider deal" on his system. I know you are also a personal friend of Bart's and have gone sailing with him. He even helped you deliver your boat to winter storage. So, really, your defense of Jon is as colored as his opinion of the Dutchman System. CWM For what it's worth, if I'm in the market for a product and that product is going to cost me the same amount whether I buy it from seller "A" or seller "B," and seller "B" is a friend or aquaintance who will benefit from the sale, I'll go with "B" every time. I would also, however, CWM, Chuckles, Binary Bill, etc., a known troll, is a LIAR (all caps so no one misses it). I know Bart quite well, and he did make the offer. I never said publically or otherwise that I would take him up on it, and I didn't, since Quantum gave me a comprehensive price and the parts and installation. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
"KLC Lewis" wrote in message
... "Charlie Morgan" wrote in message ... On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:43:38 -0600, "KLC Lewis" wrote: "Charlie Morgan" wrote in message ... You are simply incorrect, Dave. Bart was roundly castigated in another group by many people after he started a thread extolling the virtues of the Dutchman System, and slamming the alternatives. He WORKS for THE DUTCHMAN. Bart also offered readers of that group a "deal" on the Dutchman System, and Jon Ganz publically announced he was taking Bart up on his offer. Bart and Jon are pals, and Bart has even visited Jon out in California. We know that because Bart posted a public thank you to Jon in that other forum. How do you know what the normal royalty is for a Dutchman System? Maybe it's half of the normal retail installed price. This isn't a book or CD royalty of a dollar a copy. Jon has a cozy relationship with an Employee of Dutchman and he got a special "insider deal" on his system. I know you are also a personal friend of Bart's and have gone sailing with him. He even helped you deliver your boat to winter storage. So, really, your defense of Jon is as colored as his opinion of the Dutchman System. CWM For what it's worth, if I'm in the market for a product and that product is going to cost me the same amount whether I buy it from seller "A" or seller "B," and seller "B" is a friend or aquaintance who will benefit from the sale, I'll go with "B" every time. That's not what happened in this case. And that guy, Dave, who is defending Jon Ganz? His boat is, at this moment, sitting close enough to the Dutchman's office that the Dutchman could probably hit it with a rock, if he has a decent arm. Believe whatever you like. Some people like being hoodwinked by shysters. I brought up the issue because some people DO care about paid shills pretending to be independent satisfied customers. CWM Do you know that Jon Ganz is NOT a satisfied Dutchman Customer? Maybe he's just like that guy who liked the electric razor so much that he bought the company. Sorry. I use Norelco. *Disclaimer: I got a huge discount from them for the razor parts, and I assembled it myself. *Additional disclaimer: It now doubles as a chainsaw. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
"Dave" wrote in message
... On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:50:34 -0500, Charlie Morgan said: That's not what happened in this case. And that guy, Dave, who is defending Jon Ganz? His boat is, at this moment, sitting close enough to the Dutchman's office that the Dutchman could probably hit it with a rock, if he has a decent arm. Absolutely. Even stopped in to talk to Martin Van Breen, the guy who invented the system, since he's located in the yard where I haul. Pointed out to him that it looked like the repair on the ports of his CS27 at the dock hadn't been done properly. So does that make me a shill for his system? Charlie, you really should have been on Joe McCarthy's staff. He's pretty pathetic, besides being a liar. Just forget it. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
"Dave" wrote in message
... On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:32:34 -0500, Charlie Morgan said: And yes, your defense of Jon's marketing of the Dutchman's System is highly colored by your own personal connections to Jon's buddy Bart. Maybe you hopped on this "case" hoping to get a deal yourself? It wouldn;t surprise me. Charlie, it sounds like you and Larry need to get together and share conspiracy theories. Now that's funny! I heard Anna Nicole and Elvis are hiding out together. In the first place, if you want to jump on something it ought not to be my defense of Jon. It ought to be my report on my very limited personal experience with the system, which was favorable. Yes, that report was colored by a number of things, including sailing on a boat with the system installed, and having looked Martin in the eye and developing an impression that he's a straight shooter. Believe me, whatever savings I might get if he were to give me a "deal" by waiving a royalty fee (and I have no reason to think he would) simply wouldn't be significant enough to either affect a decision to install the system or to push his system. In any event, I don't expect to install his system any time soon, as I have other priorities this year. Careful Dave, you're telling the truth. It's not something he can handle. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Lazy Jack vs Dutchman Sail Flaking System
In Charlie Morgan writes:
On 26 Feb 2007 13:13:01 -0600, Dave wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 12:55:58 -0500, Charlie Morgan said: You will note that I have avoided giving MY opinion of the Dutchman System. I'm only addressing the dishonest marketing tactics. So what is your opinion of the system? Or do you have to keep quiet because Martin gave you a deal on one g? My opinion is that I've been on boats that have it, but I haven't felt the slightest urge to put it on my boat. If I had a much larger boat, I might be more interested, but I'd be more likely at that point to get the Leisure Furl boom system. People I know that have the Dutchman system have varied opinons that range from "gush" to "flush" and everything in between. It's not for everybody, but some people DO like it. You'll get a much bigger benefit from your new furler. CWM I suppose, the furler has a different pricetag. - Lauri Tarkkonen |
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