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Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
I have to laugh that Geoff beat me to the internet with the pictures.
I've crossposted this to rbb as well, as there may be those there who have some construction suggestions. Today I'll take copious pictures of the real damage - inside, where we'll have to take the boat apart. I also want to add a non-damage discussion point WRT all the marvelous offers of help which have been arriving, including overwhelming the phone lines at KBW (we arrived after hours on Friday, so have no knowledge of what happened other than a yardie commented about the office phone ringing off the hook; they're out until Tuesday, at which point I'll learn more). We have put our interior back together, and if you didn't know where to look, you'd not know anything had occurred. So, until the insurance company takes it from us, we have a place to live - one less hurdle to address. We're also creeping up on possibilities of transportation. We have two offers, both from people far away, of loans of a vehicle, both of which require TLC from a mechanic to be functional, so we don't yet have a resolution on that. Practically speaking, given the realities, if Flying Pig is to be saved, it will be because we take over the refit work. That will involve all the sorts of things we did in our initial work, including hauling lots of stuff. We did that in the van we gave away the day we left, so have nothing to use for that purpose. So, a truck, van or SUV, the more beat-up (representing little risk of compromise) but mechanically reliable, the better. One of those offered is 1000 miles away, so making this happen is challenging at very best; a local benefactor would be much more effective. Physically, we're still exhausted, because, despite having "nothing to do" we're not getting nearly enough sleep in regular terms, let alone trying to catch up with the shortfall. Otherwise, we're sound of body ... .... Of mind, we're oscillating between optimism and despair. The despair part will be more clear below; the optimism is my usual mode, including the troubleshooting (focus on the solution, not the problem, but identify the problem before charging off in all directions) of our situation. I'm happiest when solving problems, so I should have plenty to keep me entertained for a while. On to the damage report: The exterior of the boat I could easily (if time-consumingly) do myself, having just done much more than the equivalent in blister repair. For that matter, so could Lydia, as she's done a great deal of the repair which photos will show survived the abuse. I'll save a detailed discussion until I have the pix up. The other fiberglass work is very straightforward, too. However... Virtually all the starboard bulkheads from the galley bulkhead aft are detabbed now. Only a little of what I can see came loose from the hull, but the bulkheads moved substantially (but remained intact; we lost only one tile on the head/ER bulkhead over the tub, e.g.). It's a simple process to cut away the old, grind the hull to make a bonding point, and do it over again. What's not so easy is the removal of the settee to get to the sole, removing that to get to the forward, Vee shaped with "frog legs" extensions, water tank which butts up against the bulkhead between the galley sink and settees. I presume the water tank has also delaminated from the hull; it goes across the entire salon, requiring removal of the other settee, and all the sole, as well. It's intact, more testimony to how stout this boat is. Of course, it's far bigger than any of the exits, so will have to be propped up somewhere while we work. And, in any event, it would have to be removed in order to access the bulkhead at the hull behind where it was placed. Under/aft of the salon water tank, is the mast well. The crotch of the "frog legs" is the majority of the mast well. Support for the mast step has been compromised. Perhaps it's sound - and could be addressed with the mast in place. However, when you pull the tank, you pull most of the mast well (only the back of it, the bulkhead, remains). Oops. Gotta redo the entire step assembly, probably, and certainly at a minimum, pull the mast. Rigger Fee Ouchies, followed by the electrical realities of the fact that it appears this mast hasn't been removed since it left the factory, as a great number of the wires up the mast are solid and will have to be cut and then remade on restoration of the mast But wait - there's more. On the galley side, much the same exists. It took us nearly a year of work to build that galley; much of it will have to be redone after we saw it out. The reefer is integral to the engine room bulkhead, and aside from the cooling part, won't be salvageable. It will have to be custom built, all over again, a *very* fiddly piece of work. To get to the engine room tabbing, and the other side of the settee mentioned above, the entire galley and starboard water tank will have to come out. The only good news in that is the new sole will be done right, instead of just the extra layer of (very beautiful) teak and holly laid over a rot stabilization from the prior icebox drain leaking, done in some prior owner's repairs/maintenance. That tank, too, is intact. We'll have to saw out the reefer which was custom built from the ground up (see postings from a couple of years ago) to get to the ER tabbing. It gets better. The starboard motor mount stringers were heaving in the pounding, too, as was the battery box, in the location commonly where the genset would be. That area was the only one where I saw hull-bulkhead detabbing, as one of the stringers we'd rebuilt, aft, had pulled off the hull. However, the ER sole will have to come out in order to get to the tabbing on the galley bulkhead, and it will take further examination, but I see the distinct possibility for having to pull the engine (not out, just up, through the hole provided in the sole of the cockpit) in order to address the likely detabbing of the mounts stringers. Aft, the tub will have to come out - an interesting project, I'm sure, and perhaps destroying the expensive tiling job that was done just before we left, as well as the custom molding into which the plexiglass custom dividers are set (though, perhaps, given that it's only a couple of weeks old, the caulk might release the plastic - but the plastic, too, might be destroyed in the attempt), and at least part of the sole (installed under the tub in the original building process) will have to be cut out, and later, custom shimming done to support it and the tub structure as it's replaced. So, it's all very straightforward - but intensely expensive to have done, and nearly inconceivable that the insurance company won't total it. I have no doubt that at quality contract rates, even if I do the contracting myself (thus saving some money over the yard being general contractor), our remaining 100K (after paying for the salvage and midnight emergency haul first) won't begin to cover it. Yet, it can't not be done, if the boat is to sail again, as it's integral to the strength of the hull. In fact, in talking with my surveyor, now a friend (whose brother's M462 I found an owner for after the insurance company totaled it following a galley fire), who was the QC and Service Manager at Morgan during the entire production run of our boat, he suggests that due to the flexing the hull's had, more rather than less bulkhead strength is advised. Once it's apart, that will be pretty easy to accomplish, so I'm not concerned, but it's very good information to have. He also told me exactly what materials were used in the tabbing, so, I'm sure it can be done properly. I've done nearly all of what's needed for access other than pulling out the tanks, already, in the course of our refit. I have no illusions of simplicity or ease. I have no doubt that with as many people as could fit into all the spaces, working simultaneously (which, of course, can't happen in realistic terms), it would take many hundreds of manhours to accomplish, but still would take not less than a month, more likely two, of multiple crews treating each area (saloon, galley, engine room, aft head) as a separate project. At typical yard rates, that would instantly kill our insurance policy. Of course, in addition to all the fiberglass, paint, epoxy, bottom paint and the like outside, there's the replacement of the rudder, a significant cost in itself. Even in that, I have a clear idea of what's needed, as I was able to visit a sistership, the single 463 built, in which the rudder and support at the bottom was removed during his refit. All very straightforward, all very expensive... That doesn't address the mayhem topsides; nearly all of our running rigging is toast, flogged to a nice fuzz, or, stripping the outer coating leaving the core either exposed or compromised further, or knotted in a basketball-sized agglomeration, the KISS generator was ripped from its pole, leaving nothing but a blackened stump and a wire, the VHF antenna broke its mount, requiring unfishing and refishing of the antenna line to remount, bimini stitching failed in a couple of places, the propane system went south (maybe a connection? solenoid? kinked line?), the genoa is shredded in its furling (now I understand how it works in hurricanes with furled gennies), the main has a tear in the leech, the staysail cover is tattered, the toe rail is shattered where the salvor's line gave way and ripped both chocks out, the hailer is gone, blown away or shaken loose during the pounding, and probably other things I'll discover later when I go out in the cold light of the day. At the moment I wrote this before proofing, dealing with visitors, going outside to take pictures and discussing reality with Lydia, I was trying to regain consciousness with a cup of microwaved coffee (no stove, remember), before I headed into damage assessment and photos and uploads later today. The gallery with the current events is http://justpickone.org/skip/gallery/ in the first subgallery, Flying_Pig_Is_Aloft_-_The_Adventure_Begins, at this moment empty, but if you see a picture rather than a file folder, pictures are inside. Not related directly, but I have to say, again, how overwhelmed and touched we are by the support groups which have and are springing up. The couple who took us to dinner a couple of nights ago in Key West just left after having driven an hour to check up on us. Last night a couple of sailors and their son, a co-worker of my son's who'd flown down to help them deliver their boat from Ft. Lauderdale to Marathon, brought us supper and regaled us with stories both about sailing, software authorship and flying. A local delivery captain just phoned to say he'd get up a list of competent, honest local contractors, so that I might better do the management of our restoration directly than have the management overhead of the - reiterated as the best in the area - yard; it just arrived as I was typing this. An Island Packet Sailnet list member made us a webpage (http://ipphotos.com/ FlyingPig.asp ) as part of his Island Packet Photos site. It goes on and on. You meet the most caring people in the cruising world... L8R Skip and Lydia, blessed, despite it all Morgan 461 #2 Disaster link: http://ipphotos.com/FlyingPig.asp SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery! Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain |
Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
This seems to be the best thread in which to insert this...
George Huffman, of "The Dinghy Dock" newsletter, made a post in Renegades, offering his help as soon as his own vehicular challenges are resolved... Hi, George, and onlookers, It keeps getting better... The transportation issue isn't yet resolved - but there's a distinct possibility in the area. I just got a mail from my surveyor, ex-QC and Service Manager for Morgan during the entire time of building our boats. The short story is that if the detabbing is at the bulkhead and the bulkhead hasn't been compromised with oil products (fuel, oil, etc.), just wedging it open, flowing in epoxy and then screwing it down will rebond and, as my wife, and England-raised lady, sez, "Bob's your uncle!" I'm going to follow up to see if one *must* screw it back down (vs, e.g., wedging i.e. are the screws necessary for structural integrity, or just used to pull it tight?) to make it happen. If wedging will suffice, likely we won't have to pull the tanks, minimizing an already labor intensive project into something far more manageable. I'm already into project management mode, but Lydia's still in full depression, as the enormity of the elephant she has to eat is still too close to analyze. She doesn't do patience, or methodical long- term results. "Lord, give me patience - and I want it *right now!!!* - funny, but unfortunately true for her generally, let alone under these circumstances. Yet, all this will pass, and we'll have the most amazing stories to tell around the potlucks out in the Caribbean, or to the BoyScouts we might do charters for on their Extreme Adventure series "Sail the Keys" once this is all settled. Not quite Robinson Cruso, or the other which escapes me about the swiss family, but still entertaining, if you don't have to deal with the pain of the real possibility of losing your home and every one of your possessions. Yet, I'm struck by how fortunate we are in comparison, for example, of some of the Rita/Katrina/Wilma/Ivan survivors. We're truly blessed, including by such as you all. Love to all of you kind souls, most of whom we don't even know exist, having never even corresponded, let alone met... L8R Skip Morgan 461 #2 Disaster link: http://ipphotos.com/FlyingPig.asp SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery! Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain |
Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
Skip,
Regarding the "pulling it apart and flowing-in epoxy" -- yes, that will work with certain caveats: How clean is the material on either face which will be epoxied together? Oil-free is good, of course, but if the two surfaces pulled cleanly away from each other, leaving little glass on the wood or wood on the glass, they weren't bonded strongly-enough to begin with. Trying to rebond them with epoxy won't be very strong, and eventually that joint will fail again. New epoxy won't form a primary bond with old polyester resin. If, in pulling apart, plenty of glass was left in the wood or visa-versa, then the glue joint was as strong as it could have been. But in either case, rebonding without mechanical fasteners will be weaker than the original joint which failed. You might want to consider, rather than screws through the glass into the bulkheads, using through-bolted hardwood battens at least half an inch thick to help spread the load and reinforce that joint. If at all possible, I would want to laminate those battens into place, making a "wood-glass-wood-glass-wood" sandwich bolted and epoxied together. "Skip Gundlach" wrote in message ups.com... This seems to be the best thread in which to insert this... George Huffman, of "The Dinghy Dock" newsletter, made a post in Renegades, offering his help as soon as his own vehicular challenges are resolved... Hi, George, and onlookers, It keeps getting better... The transportation issue isn't yet resolved - but there's a distinct possibility in the area. I just got a mail from my surveyor, ex-QC and Service Manager for Morgan during the entire time of building our boats. The short story is that if the detabbing is at the bulkhead and the bulkhead hasn't been compromised with oil products (fuel, oil, etc.), just wedging it open, flowing in epoxy and then screwing it down will rebond and, as my wife, and England-raised lady, sez, "Bob's your uncle!" I'm going to follow up to see if one *must* screw it back down (vs, e.g., wedging i.e. are the screws necessary for structural integrity, or just used to pull it tight?) to make it happen. If wedging will suffice, likely we won't have to pull the tanks, minimizing an already labor intensive project into something far more manageable. I'm already into project management mode, but Lydia's still in full depression, as the enormity of the elephant she has to eat is still too close to analyze. She doesn't do patience, or methodical long- term results. "Lord, give me patience - and I want it *right now!!!* - funny, but unfortunately true for her generally, let alone under these circumstances. Yet, all this will pass, and we'll have the most amazing stories to tell around the potlucks out in the Caribbean, or to the BoyScouts we might do charters for on their Extreme Adventure series "Sail the Keys" once this is all settled. Not quite Robinson Cruso, or the other which escapes me about the swiss family, but still entertaining, if you don't have to deal with the pain of the real possibility of losing your home and every one of your possessions. Yet, I'm struck by how fortunate we are in comparison, for example, of some of the Rita/Katrina/Wilma/Ivan survivors. We're truly blessed, including by such as you all. Love to all of you kind souls, most of whom we don't even know exist, having never even corresponded, let alone met... L8R Skip Morgan 461 #2 Disaster link: http://ipphotos.com/FlyingPig.asp SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery! Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain |
Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
If it were my boat and the joint were structurally important, i'd gain
access to the loose tabbing, cut away the separated leaf of tabbing, grind both sides of the joint and lay up new tabbng with epoxy. "KLC Lewis" wrote in message et... Skip, Regarding the "pulling it apart and flowing-in epoxy" -- yes, that will work with certain caveats: How clean is the material on either face which will be epoxied together? Oil-free is good, of course, but if the two surfaces pulled cleanly away from each other, leaving little glass on the wood or wood on the glass, they weren't bonded strongly-enough to begin with. Trying to rebond them with epoxy won't be very strong, and eventually that joint will fail again. New epoxy won't form a primary bond with old polyester resin. If, in pulling apart, plenty of glass was left in the wood or visa-versa, then the glue joint was as strong as it could have been. But in either case, rebonding without mechanical fasteners will be weaker than the original joint which failed. You might want to consider, rather than screws through the glass into the bulkheads, using through-bolted hardwood battens at least half an inch thick to help spread the load and reinforce that joint. If at all possible, I would want to laminate those battens into place, making a "wood-glass-wood-glass-wood" sandwich bolted and epoxied together. "Skip Gundlach" wrote in message ups.com... This seems to be the best thread in which to insert this... George Huffman, of "The Dinghy Dock" newsletter, made a post in Renegades, offering his help as soon as his own vehicular challenges are resolved... Hi, George, and onlookers, It keeps getting better... The transportation issue isn't yet resolved - but there's a distinct possibility in the area. I just got a mail from my surveyor, ex-QC and Service Manager for Morgan during the entire time of building our boats. The short story is that if the detabbing is at the bulkhead and the bulkhead hasn't been compromised with oil products (fuel, oil, etc.), just wedging it open, flowing in epoxy and then screwing it down will rebond and, as my wife, and England-raised lady, sez, "Bob's your uncle!" I'm going to follow up to see if one *must* screw it back down (vs, e.g., wedging i.e. are the screws necessary for structural integrity, or just used to pull it tight?) to make it happen. If wedging will suffice, likely we won't have to pull the tanks, minimizing an already labor intensive project into something far more manageable. I'm already into project management mode, but Lydia's still in full depression, as the enormity of the elephant she has to eat is still too close to analyze. She doesn't do patience, or methodical long- term results. "Lord, give me patience - and I want it *right now!!!* - funny, but unfortunately true for her generally, let alone under these circumstances. Yet, all this will pass, and we'll have the most amazing stories to tell around the potlucks out in the Caribbean, or to the BoyScouts we might do charters for on their Extreme Adventure series "Sail the Keys" once this is all settled. Not quite Robinson Cruso, or the other which escapes me about the swiss family, but still entertaining, if you don't have to deal with the pain of the real possibility of losing your home and every one of your possessions. Yet, I'm struck by how fortunate we are in comparison, for example, of some of the Rita/Katrina/Wilma/Ivan survivors. We're truly blessed, including by such as you all. Love to all of you kind souls, most of whom we don't even know exist, having never even corresponded, let alone met... L8R Skip Morgan 461 #2 Disaster link: http://ipphotos.com/FlyingPig.asp SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery! Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain |
Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
Hi Skip:
If I were looking at my crunched boat I think I would walk away with a pocket full of insurance money and go find a nice 28' Cascade or something and go sailing the next day. After the 1000s of hours invested in Pig I'd think you would be ready for a vacation. Are you ready to spend the next 2 years in the yard............ again? Personally as hard as you have worked on her Id think some fun is in order. On a slightly related topic.... I read Lydia's comment she logged the night before the crash. I get the impression she does not like sailing: "...There are sailors, and then there are sailors. Some of us sail because we're addicted to sailing - that catagory of people usually race sailboats. And then there are the others, who sail to get from A to B in order to enjoy what's at B. That's us. You're thrilled when you leave port for your new desination, and you're thrilled when you arrive. You endure the in between part...." Lydia Endure the in-between part? Isn't that called sailing? Bob |
Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
In article . com,
"Skip Gundlach" wrote: I'm going to follow up to see if one *must* screw it back down (vs, e.g., wedging i.e. are the screws necessary for structural integrity, or just used to pull it tight?) to make it happen. If wedging will suffice, likely we won't have to pull the tanks, minimizing an already labor intensive project into something far more manageable. I suspect it's like doing glue & nail in woodworking: The nails are really there only to get a good bond; you could pull them after it's set up. But you want a really good bond.... Agreement with KLC's assessment on the "cleanness" of the break. Rough is better, polyester probably your best bet, fortified with something strong that you can shoot in with, say, a caulk gun. It does keep sounding better and better. Just a thought that you might toss around: to get pressure on the joints, you might intentionally put jackstands at those areas, intentionally a bit too "tight"; the hull will probably flex outward afterwards, pulling the bulkheads back in place. -- Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan's NEW Pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
"Bob" wrote in message ps.com... Hi Skip: If I were looking at my crunched boat I think I would walk away with a pocket full of insurance money and go find a nice 28' Cascade or something and go sailing the next day. After the 1000s of hours invested in Pig I'd think you would be ready for a vacation. Are you ready to spend the next 2 years in the yard............ again? Personally as hard as you have worked on her Id think some fun is in order. On a slightly related topic.... I read Lydia's comment she logged the night before the crash. I get the impression she does not like sailing: "...There are sailors, and then there are sailors. Some of us sail because we're addicted to sailing - that catagory of people usually race sailboats. And then there are the others, who sail to get from A to B in order to enjoy what's at B. That's us. You're thrilled when you leave port for your new desination, and you're thrilled when you arrive. You endure the in between part...." Lydia Endure the in-between part? Isn't that called sailing? Bob Might be more enjoyable to fly to a destination (eg. BVI) and rent a sailboat for a couple of weeks. |
Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
On Feb 13, 3:13 am, Jere Lull wrote:
Just a thought that you might toss around: to get pressure on the joints, you might intentionally put jackstands at those areas, intentionally a bit too "tight"; the hull will probably flex outward afterwards, pulling the bulkheads back in place. Excellent thought. So far what iI can see (pictures, soon, I promise!) suggests it's already tight, as there's not a gap top/bottom of the line where it used to be attached. As to KLC's comment about reinforcement, if I could get to them all the way, the discussion of shims/wedges wouldn't be necessary. And, if I could get to them all the way, I'm enough of a belt and suspenders man that I'd likely grind it off and put on new, building up in exactly the same form as original (Pete provided me with the type of cloth used). I can't see how adding wood over an existing tab, and then going over it with FG/resin would improve matters; you're relying on the existing part, and not connecting the new to the bulkhead (I may not have a picture of what was intended, I realize). Thanks for all the commentary and support, in whatever fashion. Today it looks like we'll have a beater Suburban for use in transport and hauling; I'll know for sure by the end of the day. L8R Skip Morgan 461 #2 Disaster link: http://ipphotos.com/FlyingPig.asp SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery! Follow us at http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog and/or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog The Society for the Preservation of Tithesis commends your ebriated and scrutible use of delible and defatigable, which are gainly, sipid and couth. We are gruntled and consolate that you have the ertia and eptitude to choose such putably pensible tithesis, which we parage. Stamp out Sesquipedalianism -- Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan's NEW Pages:http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics)http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
On 13 Feb 2007 07:24:57 -0800, "Skip Gundlach"
wrote: Excellent thought. So far what iI can see (pictures, soon, I promise!) Hi Skip, You'd better hurray or we will send Geoff out to beat you to the scoop -:) -Lee |
Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message ups.com... As to KLC's comment about reinforcement, if I could get to them all the way, the discussion of shims/wedges wouldn't be necessary. And, if I could get to them all the way, I'm enough of a belt and suspenders man that I'd likely grind it off and put on new, building up in exactly the same form as original (Pete provided me with the type of cloth used). I can't see how adding wood over an existing tab, and then going over it with FG/resin would improve matters; you're relying on the existing part, and not connecting the new to the bulkhead (I may not have a picture of what was intended, I realize). Thanks for all the commentary and support, in whatever fashion. Today it looks like we'll have a beater Suburban for use in transport and hauling; I'll know for sure by the end of the day. L8R Skip Skip, My outline may have left out steps that I have clearly in mind, but didn't translate into dots on the screen. The way I see it, yes -- you could grind off all the old tabbing and install it new, but then you would have TWO secondary/mechanical bonds, rather than the one secondary (tabbing to bulkhead) and one primary (tabbing to hull, laid-up when the resin was still fresh and molecularly active. My method does rely upon glue (epoxy) between the bulkhead and old tabbing, clamped together with the bolts and battens, all laminated together into one thick tabbing. Unfortunately, if you don't have the access, you don't have the access. So now the question becomes, can you ever make it strong enough without that access? |
Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:00:08 -0600, "KLC Lewis"
wrote: My method does rely upon glue (epoxy) between the bulkhead and old tabbing, clamped together with the bolts and battens In addition to using epoxy resin (instead of polyester), I recommend thickening the resin with chopped glass fibers to improve its strength. This is a difficult repair without having full access on at least one side of the bulkhead. |
Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
Jere Lull wrote:
I suspect it's like doing glue & nail in woodworking: The nails are really there only to get a good bond; you could pull them after it's set up. But you want a really good bond.... Epoxies are not great in peel. The screws would help prevent that - and act as shear pins. Screw it.... Ricahrd |
Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
In article , "KLC Lewis"
wrote: So now the question becomes, can you ever make it strong enough without that access? How could you ever know how strong it was? You'll never reach 100% new as-built strength. But even if you did by some chance, you'll never be able to KNOW exactly how strong the repair is. You'll have to take her out in progressivly more stressful conditions and each time there will be that knot in your gut. Will it take 5' seas? 6' seas? 7' seas pounding for day after day? Even if it does, you'll not know if the next wave will be the one. You'll crawl around in the bildge after each short trip looking for problems that really can't be seen. This is not what the dream was about. No, it will never be a Morgan again. Not so that you can trust her just because there is a long history of Morgans that are built just like her that have proven themselves countless times. That was why you bought a Morgan in the first place. The confidence that she'll be able to handle anything the sea throws at her. That's gone for good now. There will always be a nagging doubt. You'll live in fear of every new set of conditions, only trusting her if conditions are just perfect, and they never are. Over time your love for her will turn to hate just from this nagging mistrust. You'll find more and more excuses to leave her at the dock. Afraid each and every time you leave a port. No, even a horse you dearly love should be put down when the time comes. Do it swiftly and without regrets. Good luck, Paul -- Remove Before Flight |
Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
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Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 18:04:15 -0500, Charlie Morgan wrote:
The boat could be repaired to be stronger than original. I rarely "repair" anything on a boat without making it better than it ever was. Yes, but you hace to be prepared to do the job properly which means disassembling anything which needs to be removed for proper access. Squirting a little resin into the voids and clamping it up is not likely to be succesful beyond the first storm. |
Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
In article , Charlie Morgan
wrote: Sorry, but that's just plain ignorance talking. The boat could be repaired to be stronger than original. I rarely "repair" anything on a boat without making it better than it ever was. Charlie, Ignorance I'll always admit to. But repairing a boat was not the issue. Restoring your confidence and trust in the boat after a repair like this was the point. At what precise moment in time will you be able to declare that it is now "all fixed" and is "better than it ever was"? And right up until this magic point in time, how exactly will you feel about your life on the boat? Confident and secure, or cautious and worried? Which way do you want to feel when you sail? These things would be on my mind if my life was on the line. We're not talking about fixing a leaky head here. Nor was this the last good old boat left in the world. Go find another with a sound hull and get on with enjoying life. This whole "get back on the horse" bull**** don't cut it when the horse is stone cold dead. BTW, do you fix multiple popped bulkheads often ? I know, you guarantee all work done or my money & life back right. ;-) Sweet dreams, Paul -- Remove Before Flight |
Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
"Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 18:04:15 -0500, Charlie Morgan wrote: The boat could be repaired to be stronger than original. I rarely "repair" anything on a boat without making it better than it ever was. Yes, but you hace to be prepared to do the job properly which means disassembling anything which needs to be removed for proper access. Squirting a little resin into the voids and clamping it up is not likely to be succesful beyond the first storm. Absolutely. I certainly hope that isn't the impression you got from my suggestion. |
Discoveries (was) Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
Of little interest to most, I'm sure, but I, of the curious mind,
wonder: What, indeed, were the winds out there that night? In the harsh light of day I see: The Davis wind indicator has lost one leg entirely, and the tab from the other. The hailer horn, newly installed, blew off. The KISS wind generator, also newly installed, left behind only a blackened stump and a length of wire. What sort of speed is required to cause those departures? Surely, based on experience of those in the know, not enough to blow us off course, but enough to do some damage, apparently. I'm sure glad the radar antenna didn't follow the horn mounted below it - apparently it was more aerodynamic and/or more stoutly mounted... Meanwhile, the yard has had its first look; it appears as though - if they care to bid on it at all - it will be strictly time and materials. While they and the insurance company figure out what to do, the yard bill clicks along at $500 a week just to sit still on the stands. I'm beginning to consider a tow back to the yard where we were, as, if this is to be saved, it nearly certainly won't be by the yard here doing the work - I have little doubt the policy limits would be exceeded very quickly, and besides, I expect the insurance company will require firm quotes, which, to protect themselves, the yard will make astronomical. Where we were, we can be stored and worked on for less than 1/6 the yard cost here. If it turns out to be many months, that's many thousands difference in what will inevitably be out-of-pocket expenses - which we currently have no concept of how to find. And, at least up there, we have some "community" having worked on the boat for the last three years there. I'm going to make a concerted effort tomorrow, following conversations with a surveyor who is also a morgan owner, and has recommended various tradespeople to us, to get individual contractors' opinions about the method of attack, as well as the anticipated end cost. If it can possibly be done here, in the parameters of the insurance coverage, we'll go for it. If it's way over, but, say, less than double, likely we'll pull it back to St. Pete, as I am confident we can find competent tradespeople there at comparable or less cost, but save 5k every three months in yard bills, money sorely needed to make repairs... Wish us luck (I know, you already do - we're overwhelmed with support, for which we are without words, as they're simply inadequate, including, today, another morgan owner giving us his suburban he no longer needed, for us to haul the inevitable huge amount of supplies for our refit)... L8R Skip and Lydia -- Morgan 461 #2 Disaster link: http://ipphotos.com/FlyingPig.asp SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery! Follow us at and "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain |
Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
In article , Charlie Morgan
wrote: On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 21:01:12 -0500, (Paul) wrote: In article , Charlie Morgan wrote: Sorry, but that's just plain ignorance talking. The boat could be repaired to be stronger than original. I rarely "repair" anything on a boat without making it better than it ever was. Charlie, Ignorance I'll always admit to. But repairing a boat was not the issue. Restoring your confidence and trust in the boat after a repair like this was the point. At what precise moment in time will you be able to declare that it is now "all fixed" and is "better than it ever was"? And right up until this magic point in time, how exactly will you feel about your life on the boat? Confident and secure, or cautious and worried? Which way do you want to feel when you sail? These things would be on my mind if my life was on the line. We're not talking about fixing a leaky head here. Nor was this the last good old boat left in the world. Go find another with a sound hull and get on with enjoying life. This whole "get back on the horse" bull**** don't cut it when the horse is stone cold dead. BTW, do you fix multiple popped bulkheads often ? I know, you guarantee all work done or my money & life back right. ;-) Sweet dreams, Paul Apparently some of us are more skilled at this type of work than others. :') When I say I tend to make things better than original, I wasn't making anything up. Those here who have some skills and experience in these things will know that it's not magic to make something better when you rebuild it. You observe why something failed, and you figure out how to make it better. CWM Well hell Charlie, what's yer hourly rate? I'm bringing all my reef wrecks to you from now on ;) Nite, Paul -- Remove Before Flight |
Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
In article ,
Charlie Morgan wrote: Apparently some of us are more skilled at this type of work than others. :') When I say I tend to make things better than original, I wasn't making anything up. Those here who have some skills and experience in these things will know that it's not magic to make something better when you rebuild it. You observe why something failed, and you figure out how to make it better. Agreement. I replaced our primary bulkhead a few seasons back. It's stronger, better protected, and prettier than the original, which gave out after only 30 years. Helps when you get advice from the people who built the boat. Some boats are designed and built to be handed down to the grandkids despite the wear and tear of decades of use and abuse. -- Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan's NEW Pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
Paul,
With all due respect, I must disagree with many aspects of your post. To the question of "ever make it strong enough", I believe you will find that many boat yards would be able to do so, and without any real doubt about the quality of the final product. The question would be at what cost, which may be high enough to abandon the project. But that is an economic, not emotional decision. In terms of technical abilities, if someone decided to "add" additional bulkheads to an existing hull, there would be no problem doing so - and most yards could handle this type of work and claim that the new bulkheads were bonded as well or better than the original. They might weigh significantly more, they might look worse, but technically it is feasible (if more difficult) to rebond to existing fiberglass. In this case, it may be necessary to do something quite like that. Whether the expense of doing so makes sense would be for the owner to determine, but from an engineering standpoint I don't believe there is anything we've heard that contradicts this approach. As to "never reach 100% new as-built strength", I don't quite understand what this means. Are you suggesting that the manufacturer's "as built" product is as strong as it could ever possibly be, and that any modification would necessarily detract from this idealized value? Boat builders, even Morgans, don't always build "as strong as it could possibly be" because there are other factors to consider, such as cost, design constraints, weight ratios, flex, etc. Some engineer or architect (more likely some manager or accountant) decided exactly how strong they could get away with making something and still sell it to their target market. It could always have been built better, but they didn't believe the customer would pay more for it. Again, this is an issue of cost. The practical limit on upper strength could always be improved in just about any vessel ever made. Testing the repair can be done in a number of ways, but it would not require the "knot in your gut" feelings you describe, nor the numerous sea trials of increasing magnitude. The owner can hire engineers to examine the work and bench test it, and delivery captains (the test pilots of the sea) to see how she performs under load. It would not be difficult to determine how well the joints held, or if there was any leakage. It is simply a matter of the cost of arranging it. Your statement that "this was not what the dream was about" is also highly suspect. Unless it was your dream (and my understanding was that it was Skip & his wife's, and they did not appoint you as their dream adviser) then who are you to presume to make this claim? Perhaps shouldering on after a difficult setback is exactly what their dream was about? Do you know this? Did you ask them? Furthermore, your prognosis that "your love for her will turn to hate just from this nagging mistrust" seems awfully well informed about the owner's psyche. How well do you know him? Have you had long conversations with him about his feelings around this situation? Are you basing this on some expert opinion on human dynamics? Where is the data or rational to support this claim? Personally, it sounds like your own fears and prejudices bleeding through here under the guise of a disinterested third party offering unsolicited technical advise. Perhaps knowing how well the boat stood up to a pounding in the first place really impressed the owner and gave him great respect for the innate quality of the construction. Perhaps knowing how well the boat was repaired and tested would give him even greater confidence and trust in his boat. Maybe this experience will make him an even better sailor and better able to avoid ever placing his newly repaired boat in harms way again. Or maybe he'll decide that it isn't cost effective to try again with this particular hull, because the price of repairing the damage makes it more feasible to start again with another vessel. In either case, I don't think "nagging doubt" should be the determining factor, but cost should. Spinning the emotional slant doesn't seem appropriate or justifiable here. Robb Paul wrote: In article , "KLC Lewis" wrote: So now the question becomes, can you ever make it strong enough without that access? How could you ever know how strong it was? You'll never reach 100% new as-built strength. But even if you did by some chance, you'll never be able to KNOW exactly how strong the repair is. You'll have to take her out in progressivly more stressful conditions and each time there will be that knot in your gut. Will it take 5' seas? 6' seas? 7' seas pounding for day after day? Even if it does, you'll not know if the next wave will be the one. You'll crawl around in the bildge after each short trip looking for problems that really can't be seen. This is not what the dream was about. No, it will never be a Morgan again. Not so that you can trust her just because there is a long history of Morgans that are built just like her that have proven themselves countless times. That was why you bought a Morgan in the first place. The confidence that she'll be able to handle anything the sea throws at her. That's gone for good now. There will always be a nagging doubt. You'll live in fear of every new set of conditions, only trusting her if conditions are just perfect, and they never are. Over time your love for her will turn to hate just from this nagging mistrust. You'll find more and more excuses to leave her at the dock. Afraid each and every time you leave a port. No, even a horse you dearly love should be put down when the time comes. Do it swiftly and without regrets. Good luck, Paul |
Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
One issue that hasn't been discussed is that eventually this boat will be
sold again and do you think that the new owner will have faith in the work which has been done? You might do the greatest job in the world and build it stronger than it was from the factory, but that doesn't mean that you'll be able to convice the next buyer of that. To me this is no different than buying a car that was involved in a major accident. It will never be the same. Maybe some parts will be better than new, but there will be things that get missed or re-done wrong. As much as I hate to say it, I wouldn't put money back into this hull. That would be throwing good money after bad. -- Geoff |
Discoveries (was) Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
"Skip Gundlach" wrote in
ups.com: Wish us luck (I know, you already do - we're overwhelmed with support, Sure are a lot of Morgan 46s for sale in S Florida after the insurance company totals it..... Larry -- VIRUS ALERT! VISTA has been released! NOONE will be spared! |
Discoveries (was) Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
"While they and the insurance company figure out what to do, the yard
bill clicks along at $500 a week just to sit still on the stands." That is NUTS! What the hell kind of **** is this? Call a boat hauler, talk to someone who has a yard ( not boatyard, just a yard, yard ) and get the boat hauled over to that yard. If I lived nearby, I would let you use my yard to get that boat back on its feet. You really need to get off your A.. and get that boat out of where it is. This is starting to **** me off. ========================= "Skip Gundlach" wrote in message ups.com... Of little interest to most, I'm sure, but I, of the curious mind, wonder: What, indeed, were the winds out there that night? In the harsh light of day I see: The Davis wind indicator has lost one leg entirely, and the tab from the other. The hailer horn, newly installed, blew off. The KISS wind generator, also newly installed, left behind only a blackened stump and a length of wire. What sort of speed is required to cause those departures? Surely, based on experience of those in the know, not enough to blow us off course, but enough to do some damage, apparently. I'm sure glad the radar antenna didn't follow the horn mounted below it - apparently it was more aerodynamic and/or more stoutly mounted... Meanwhile, the yard has had its first look; it appears as though - if they care to bid on it at all - it will be strictly time and materials. While they and the insurance company figure out what to do, the yard bill clicks along at $500 a week just to sit still on the stands. I'm beginning to consider a tow back to the yard where we were, as, if this is to be saved, it nearly certainly won't be by the yard here doing the work - I have little doubt the policy limits would be exceeded very quickly, and besides, I expect the insurance company will require firm quotes, which, to protect themselves, the yard will make astronomical. Where we were, we can be stored and worked on for less than 1/6 the yard cost here. If it turns out to be many months, that's many thousands difference in what will inevitably be out-of-pocket expenses - which we currently have no concept of how to find. And, at least up there, we have some "community" having worked on the boat for the last three years there. I'm going to make a concerted effort tomorrow, following conversations with a surveyor who is also a morgan owner, and has recommended various tradespeople to us, to get individual contractors' opinions about the method of attack, as well as the anticipated end cost. If it can possibly be done here, in the parameters of the insurance coverage, we'll go for it. If it's way over, but, say, less than double, likely we'll pull it back to St. Pete, as I am confident we can find competent tradespeople there at comparable or less cost, but save 5k every three months in yard bills, money sorely needed to make repairs... Wish us luck (I know, you already do - we're overwhelmed with support, for which we are without words, as they're simply inadequate, including, today, another morgan owner giving us his suburban he no longer needed, for us to haul the inevitable huge amount of supplies for our refit)... L8R Skip and Lydia -- Morgan 461 #2 Disaster link: http://ipphotos.com/FlyingPig.asp SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery! Follow us at and "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain |
Discoveries (was) Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
"NE Sailboat" wrote:
"While they and the insurance company figure out what to do, the yard bill clicks along at $500 a week just to sit still on the stands." That is NUTS! What the hell kind of **** is this? Call a boat hauler, talk to someone who has a yard ( not boatyard, just a yard, yard ) and get the boat hauled over to that yard. If I lived nearby, I would let you use my yard to get that boat back on its feet. You really need to get off your A.. and get that boat out of where it is. This is starting to **** me off. The Keys, especially in the winter are horribly expensive. They hired a HS principal for the Marathon HS and he turned the job down because at the salary they could pay, he couldn't afford housing for his family. They charge because they can. Key's Boatworks is actually one of the less expensive ones. It might be cheaper by the month. In 2003 we paid $18/ft (for the month when you included taxes because the published rate was $16) for a slip in Marathon which included 2 pumpouts a month and electric was 10 cents/kwh and water was 3 cents a gallon and there is a minimum monthly charge for both water and electric. So the basic slip charge was $900 for the month plus water and electric. And that was 3 years ago. I can't find out what the costs are in the Marathon Boatyard (in Boot Key Harbor) Incidentally, we were going to buy a car (a conch cruiser) but all the upfront costs (they charge extra if you've not registered a car in Florida before) added so much to the cost that it was cheaper to rent. Otherwise, we used bikes. Marathon is pretty flat and easy to ride a bike in. |
Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
On Feb 14, 5:51 am, Geoff Schultz wrote:
One issue that hasn't been discussed is that eventually this boat will be sold again and do you think that the new owner will have faith in the work which has been done? To me this is no different than buying a car that was involved in a major accident. As much as I hate to say it, I wouldn't put money back into this hull. That would be throwing good money after bad. -- Geoff Hi G: I cast my vote in your camp. And this is from a guy who has two subscibtions: This Old House and Old House Journal. I have rebuilt a 1962 Dodge Dart, my now 1905 house and looking at a rehab on my mom's place built in 1886. That one will be a toatal gut to the studs. I know the impoortance of rebuilding and making better. But Skips bills and unknown expenses are just starting to roll in. Latest is $500 per week yard stay. And yes, unless he plans an insurance scuttle in a few years one google search for Flying Pig will reveal to all the crash and 'repair' story. That boat would really need to be a give away for someone to buy it in 5-10 years. If the table was turned, do you think Skip would buy the Pig when he was in search of his dream boat after learning of the boat's crash and repair history....? My vote: take the money........... walk away............. go sailing .. in a Cascade 28' tomorrow. Bob |
Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
My vote: take the money........... walk away............. go sailing .. in a Cascade 28' tomorrow. Bob To my knowledge, Cascade doesn't make a 28! G S/V Genesis Cascade 27 |
Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
Charlie Morgan wrote:
up. Those here who have some skills and experience in these things will know that it's not magic to make something better when you rebuild it. You observe why something failed, and you figure out how to make it better. CWM Well hell Charlie, what's yer hourly rate? I'm bringing all my reef wrecks to you from now on ;) Nite, Paul It's clear you couldn't afford me. CWM Hell, I couldn't afford myself if I had to pay me :) Don W. |
Discoveries (was) Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
Skip Gundlach wrote: While they and the insurance company figure out what to do, the yard bill clicks along at $500 a week just to sit still on the stands. I'm beginning to consider a tow back to the yard where we were, as, if this is to be saved, it nearly certainly won't be by the yard here doing the work - I have little doubt the policy limits would be exceeded very quickly, and besides, I expect the insurance company will require firm quotes, which, to protect themselves, the yard will make astronomical. Where we were, we can be stored and worked on for less than 1/6 the yard cost here. If it turns out to be many months, that's many thousands difference in what will inevitably be out-of-pocket expenses - which we currently have no concept of how to find. And, at least up there, we have some "community" having worked on the boat for the last three years there. Skip, You should strongly consider having the boat trucked back to your original yard. I've got an acquaintance here in Texas who has a truck and special trailer for hauling sailboats. I was quite surprised how inexpensive it would be to have our 38' sailboat trucked the three hour drive from the coast to Austin. Check around to see who does it in Florida. If they are charging you $500/week to sit on the hard, I'd get that sucker out of there the day after tomorrow!! A month of that will pay the trucking costs to get you back where you were, or to some other yard that is reasonable. If you don't want to go back to where you were, here is a link to other Florida yards. http://www.magicyellow.com/category/...-State_FL.html Truck it out, get it on blocks somewhere reasonable, and then figure out what else to do. Good luck, Don W. |
Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
On Feb 14, 12:40 pm, Gordon wrote:
My vote: take the money........... walk away............. go sailing .. in a Cascade 28' tomorrow. Bob To my knowledge, Cascade doesn't make a 28! G S/V Genesis Cascade 27 My appology. Thank you for the correction. Bewildered BOb |
Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
On Feb 14, 7:51 am, Geoff Schultz wrote:
One issue that hasn't been discussed is that eventually this boat will be sold again and do you think that the new owner will have faith in the work which has been done? You might do the greatest job in the world and build it stronger than it was from the factory, but that doesn't mean that you'll be able to convice the next buyer of that. To me this is no different than buying a car that was involved in a major accident. It will never be the same. Maybe some parts will be better than new, but there will be things that get missed or re-done wrong. As much as I hate to say it, I wouldn't put money back into this hull. That would be throwing good money after bad. -- Geoff I agree, collect the insurance, and go find a steel hull. Joe |
Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
On Feb 14, 6:01 pm, wrote:
As much as I hate to say it, I wouldn't put money back into this hull. That would be throwing good money after bad. -- Geoff I agree, collect the insurance, and go find a steel hull. Joe As some one described my first marrage......... if its dead, bury it. And I sure like that steel hull idea. Especially for thoes prone to beach/surf landings. How about a 45-50' Texas Scow Schooner in steel. Draws maybe 2-3 feet max and ya get 1/2" steel plate on the bottom. Bullet proof. Who needs a marina. Just let her sit on the mud. Flat bottom is great! Put a 6-71 in it. Parts are cheep get em any where in the world and every body can work on an old jimmy. Sail it or motor through ANY THING! Damn. I think I want one of thoes...... Square is Beautiful. Barge Bob |
Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
On Feb 14, 9:19 pm, "Bob" wrote:
On Feb 14, 6:01 pm, wrote: As much as I hate to say it, I wouldn't put money back into this hull. That would be throwing good money after bad. -- Geoff I agree, collect the insurance, and go find a steel hull. Joe As some one described my first marrage......... if its dead, bury it. And I sure like that steel hull idea. Especially for thoes prone to beach/surf landings. How about a 45-50' Texas Scow Schooner in steel. Draws maybe 2-3 feet max and ya get 1/2" steel plate on the bottom. Bullet proof. Who needs a marina. Just let her sit on the mud. Flat bottom is great! Put a 6-71 in it. Parts are cheep get em any where in the world and every body can work on an old jimmy. Sail it or motor through ANY THING! Damn. I think I want one of thoes...... Square is Beautiful. Barge Bob Why have a boxey hull? http://sports.webshots.com/photo/124...63212926VskyTX Joe |
Flying Pig Damage Assessment and update
On Feb 13, 5:04 pm, Charlie Morgan wrote:
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:51:44 -0500, (Paul) wrote: In article , "KLC Lewis" wrote: So now the question becomes, can you ever make it strong enough without that access? How could you ever know how strong it was? You'll never reach 100% new as-built strength. But even if you did by some chance, you'll never be able to KNOW exactly how strong the repair is. You'll have to take her out in progressivly more stressful conditions and each time there will be that knot in your gut. Will it take 5' seas? 6' seas? 7' seas pounding for day after day? Even if it does, you'll not know if the next wave will be the one. You'll crawl around in the bildge after each short trip looking for problems that really can't be seen. This is not what the dream was about. No, it will never be a Morgan again. Not so that you can trust her just because there is a long history of Morgans that are built just like her that have proven themselves countless times. That was why you bought a Morgan in the first place. The confidence that she'll be able to handle anything the sea throws at her. That's gone for good now. There will always be a nagging doubt. You'll live in fear of every new set of conditions, only trusting her if conditions are just perfect, and they never are. Over time your love for her will turn to hate just from this nagging mistrust. You'll find more and more excuses to leave her at the dock. Afraid each and every time you leave a port. No, even a horse you dearly love should be put down when the time comes. Do it swiftly and without regrets. Good luck, Paul Sorry, but that's just plain ignorance talking. The boat could be repaired to be stronger than original. I rarely "repair" anything on a boat without making it better than it ever was. CWM- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - No doubt BB... with that cracked smiling C&C design defect you have, you have to fix it better than it ever was. I bet every C&C owner on earth would agree with you. Joe |
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