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DIY refrigerator in sailboat
I'm building a 26 foot pilothouse sloop and the plans call for a large
icebox. My experience doing the kind of cruising I expect to do on this boat is that finding ice consumes a lot of time, it doesn't last long, it takes up a lot of space, and the food items can get soggy if I am doing any hard sailing. I have noticed that Fisheries Supply in Seattle sells "conversion kits" for converting ice boxes to 12 VDC refrigerator. This seems like a sensible choice, and might even be good to build in right from the start. Does anyone have experience with these kits or any kind of application other than a drop in box? I am thinking that with 4" polyurethane foam that I'll be able to handle the power consumption with a pair of Grp 31 batteries. Does this seem reasonable? Al Gunther Kingston, WA ---- 47° 48.1'N, 122° 30.0'W http://homepage.mac.com/agunther/.Public/index.html |
DIY refrigerator in sailboat
wrote in message ps.com... I'm building a 26 foot pilothouse sloop and the plans call for a large icebox. My experience doing the kind of cruising I expect to do on this boat is that finding ice consumes a lot of time, it doesn't last long, it takes up a lot of space, and the food items can get soggy if I am doing any hard sailing. I have noticed that Fisheries Supply in Seattle sells "conversion kits" for converting ice boxes to 12 VDC refrigerator. This seems like a sensible choice, and might even be good to build in right from the start. Does anyone have experience with these kits or any kind of application other than a drop in box? I am thinking that with 4" polyurethane foam that I'll be able to handle the power consumption with a pair of Grp 31 batteries. Does this seem reasonable? Al Gunther Kingston, WA ---- 47° 48.1'N, 122° 30.0'W http://homepage.mac.com/agunther/.Public/index.html Are you totally married to the idea of having refrigeration aboard? Considering the size of the boat, you may be better-served by utilizing as much space as possible just for stowage, rather than having to waste so much of it with insulation. But 4" of poly foam is about standard on most icebox conversions I've seen, so it would be reasonable. |
DIY refrigerator in sailboat
wrote in news:1170898987.617665.77550
@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: I'm building a 26 foot pilothouse sloop and the plans call for a large icebox. My experience doing the kind of cruising I expect to do on this boat is that finding ice consumes a lot of time, it doesn't last long, it takes up a lot of space, and the food items can get soggy if I am doing any hard sailing. I have noticed that Fisheries Supply in Seattle sells "conversion kits" for converting ice boxes to 12 VDC refrigerator. This seems like a sensible choice, and might even be good to build in right from the start. Does anyone have experience with these kits or any kind of application other than a drop in box? I am thinking that with 4" polyurethane foam that I'll be able to handle the power consumption with a pair of Grp 31 batteries. Does this seem reasonable? Al Gunther Kingston, WA ---- 47° 48.1'N, 122° 30.0'W http://homepage.mac.com/agunther/.Public/index.html http://www.onlinemarine.com/cgi- local/SoftCart.exe/online_superstore/galley/cold_machine.htm?E+scstore We had an Adler-Barbour cold plate (12VDC-115VAC) aboard an Endeavour 35 sloop. It ran off 4 golf cart batteries in the lazerette right under the compressor-condenser unit. It kept the beer cold, sometimes frozen. Plan on about 50-60AH/day. It ran about 50% of the time on 5A. It doesn't have a lot of "cooling capacity" so don't expect it to be like an ice cream machine in the icebox. You CAN make a small quantity of ice in its evaporator, which has a vertical hole about the same size as is in a little 2 cuft bar fridge at home. If you make ice in it, or load up the fridge just before you leave port on batteries....it'll run continuously for a couple of DAYS to cool all that heat load down to the thermostat shutoff. A good trick is to put frozen food you're soon going to eat into the freezer to "help" the A-B suck out the heat as it melts. Load it with COLD beer and it will very cheaply keep the beer cold. There are a couple of downsides to this utopia, however...... The worst of it was the damned thing generated this nauseatingly repetitive pulsing noise DEAD ON MARINE CHANNEL 16 the whole time it was on, not necessarily compressing. It radiated on Channel 16 to every VHF radio....bzzt....bzzt.....bzzt.bzzt.bzzt over and over to drive you crazy. The signal from it was too strong to squelch out. No other channel, like one you never use, had a peep on it....dammit. Attempts to shield the unit were unsuccessful. It has to have airflow for the condenser to heat up the lazerette it's mounted in. That's not bad, either, because the heat it generates DRYS THINGS in the lazerette.. The other problem, of course, is frosting up. The lid on a boat ice box is usually made to look pretty....NOT hermetically seal the box against any air leaks. Ours was wood and attempts to add rubber seals to it were only partially successful. Air going into the icebox and any water inside the box from the stuff generates an amazing coating of ice inside and outside of the little evaporator the freon is boiling away in. So, you do a lot of manual defrosting. "Hey, it's an icebox with a drain in it so that should be easy, right? Wrong! If you just shut the unit down and let it drain into the icebox drain, it will drain on all the stuff UNDER it making all the food WET as it defrosts. So, the ONLY way to defrost is to move all the food from the icebox into the sink during the defrosting process. The unit needs to be mounted near the TOP of the icebox to cool the WHOLE icebox. It only cools the box from the top of the unit to the bottom of the icebox. If you mount it in the bottom of the icebox, where it would easily defrost, the top of the icebox has NO COOLING....same reason the little bar fridge's evaporator is in the TOP of the little bar fridge. The more the lid seal leaks and the more often you open the icebox for beer, the more often you get to unload it to defrost it. I never seemed to make any difference, whatsoever, if you let it go for months with this big block of rime ice hiding the actual evaporator, except you couldn't get the ice trays into it any more because the INSIDE became solid ice....my captain's solution...ignore it...(c; You'll also find the top-mounted evaporator IN THE WAY getting into the top-loading/unloading icebox. The stuff you want is ALWAYS buried in the other stuff directly UNDER the evaporator you're contorting to get under. Remember DO NOT MOUNT IT LOW...mount it as high as you can get. They come precharged with Freon and have fittings that break internal seals as you assemble them so you don't need to hire an HVAC engineer to install them. Use a spray bottle full of soapy water to spot freon leaks on all fittings, INCLUDING the ones the factory put together.... Larry -- Democracy is when two wolves and a sheep vote on who's for dinner. Liberty is when the sheep has his own gun. |
DIY refrigerator in sailboat
On Feb 7, 5:43 pm, wrote:
I'm building a 26 foot pilothouse sloop and the plans call for a large icebox. I have noticed that Fisheries Supply in Seattle sells .... Two thoughts: 1) give KLC Lewis' comments long consideration. In other words, 26' with ice cubes?????? Why bother. 2) If the Fish Supply is the one across from Gas WOrks Park my only though is WAY TOOO EXPENSIVE. Visit the store, ask your questions, get manufacture model/numbers, then go online. Prices there are West Marine plus 10%. 3) a block of ice lasts 3 days if in a good cooler. Ore better yet, freeze your own 2L botles and when melted use as drinking water. |
DIY refrigerator in sailboat
You may want to look at Technautics.
http://www.technauticsinc.com/ I built a fridge/freezer a few years ago and their system was easy to install and has run well ever since. I have a holding plate in the freezer and spill over into the fridge. I can make ice cubes over night and it uses about 22AH a day. Ansley Sawyer SV Pacem |
DIY refrigerator in sailboat
On 7 Feb 2007 17:43:07 -0800, wrote:
I'm building a 26 foot pilothouse sloop and the plans call for a large icebox. My experience doing the kind of cruising I expect to do on this boat is that finding ice consumes a lot of time, it doesn't last long, it takes up a lot of space, and the food items can get soggy if I am doing any hard sailing. I have noticed that Fisheries Supply in Seattle sells "conversion kits" for converting ice boxes to 12 VDC refrigerator. This seems like a sensible choice, and might even be good to build in right from the start. Does anyone have experience with these kits or any kind of application other than a drop in box? I am thinking that with 4" polyurethane foam that I'll be able to handle the power consumption with a pair of Grp 31 batteries. Does this seem reasonable? Al Gunther Kingston, WA ---- 47° 48.1'N, 122° 30.0'W http://homepage.mac.com/agunther/.Public/index.html Al, I agree 100% with Larry's response. We cruised for 2-1/2 years with an Adler-Barbour Cold Machine conversion. Everything Larry said, including the Amp-Hours is absolutely correct. Also about the radio interference. That has changed some. Adler-Barbour sent a newer version of the controller that was a lot better, but still not cleared up. We had to switch it off when using HF Ham radio for email, but no more problem on the VHF. You might want to look at the Norcold SCQT4407. It's about half the price of the Adler-Barbour. We're planning on getting one for our current boat, a Morgan 302. A friend has one in is S2 and it seems to work well. Any comments, anyone, on the Norcold? Rick |
DIY refrigerator in sailboat
Al-
Glad to hear that you're getting closer to launch. It's a very nice design and your website showed that it was being well built. You might contact Glenn Ashmore ), who's been a constant presence here and is particularly knowledgeable about refrigeration. |
DIY refrigerator in sailboat
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 09:00:57 -0600, Rick Morel
wrote: Al, I agree 100% with Larry's response. We cruised for 2-1/2 years with an Adler-Barbour Cold Machine conversion. Everything Larry said, including the Amp-Hours is absolutely correct. Also about the radio interference. That has changed some. Adler-Barbour sent a newer version of the controller that was a lot better, but still not cleared up. We had to switch it off when using HF Ham radio for email, but no more problem on the VHF. There is another option worth considering on a 26 footer: http://www.bigfrogmountain.com/engel_products.htm I have not personally owned one of these Engels but have heard good things about them. They should not be confused with the smaller, cheaper chests which use a solid state cooling device. The Engels have a real compressor in them, and power draw is supposedly reasonable. |
DIY refrigerator in sailboat
Rick Morel wrote in
: Al, I agree 100% with Larry's response. Thanks. I have another solution for that small boat that might make sense if you can find one..... I have a little 2.2 cuft "dorm fridge" that's quite old, but I wouldn't trade it for a brand new one. It, too, is a Norcold, but I'm sure many were sold under different names like this one. What's different about this neat little fridge is IT ONLY DRAWS 40 WATTS and has NO STARTING CURRENT, unlike other compressors. Its compressor doesn't "rotate". It's a linear vibrator. They're not made, or at least not sent to the USA, any more because it uses the much-more-economical- to-operate, forbidden R-12 refridgerant. R-12 uses lots lower pressures which are easier to pump...with vibrator compressors, I'd guess. To identify these units is quite easy. Instead of the compressor being a fat little low-profile, almost spherical unit, these vibrator units are a long cylinder approximately 3-4" in diameter and about 8-10" long. They have only ONE wire coming out of them for power. The case of the compressor is the other conductor for the coil inside. Mine runs on 40VAC. Each fridge has a little transformer that converts what ever country's power line voltage it's to run on into 40VAC on the secondary to run the compressor. Just follow the wire. It's easy to find. This made world distribution easy. 240V country, 240V transformer....115V country, 115V transformer. The transformer is about the size of a door bell transformer, maybe a little larger...only 40 watts, remember. This would be ideal for a small boat fridge running off the smallest inverter you can find. When I go on a car trip, I run it off a little Vector inverter thats nothing but a large cigarette lighter plug with a 115VAC outlet on the back of the plug. My cars are diesel so have a battery that can easily provide overnight power to the tiny inverter without going dead. In a boat, that's not an issue, of course. Be on the lookout for one of these little vibrator compressor fridges. All the ones I've seen have an EXTERNAL condensor sticking out the back for better cooling and lower head pressure. You can hardly hear it running. It makes just a very low hum. It freezes ice cubes as fast as my other small fridges that have heavy starting current and draw lots more power driving rotary compressors on R-134a or R-22. It doesn't run a lot, either, saving AHs. The Norcold box is nicely insulated. I swapped the broken door off it with a Korean 2.2 cuft fridge because the door that was on it was rusted nearly off it. It's really worth the restoration. I've even run it at ham radio events off a 12V gelcell all day with the same little inverter. No, you can't have mine....(c; Larry -- Democracy is when two wolves and a sheep vote on who's for dinner. Liberty is when the sheep has his own gun. |
DIY refrigerator in sailboat
On Feb 7, 8:43 pm, wrote:
I'm building a 26 foot pilothouse sloop and the plans call for a large icebox. My experience doing the kind of cruising I expect to do on this boat is that finding ice consumes a lot of time, it doesn't last long, it takes up a lot of space, and the food items can get soggy if I am doing any hard sailing. I have noticed that Fisheries Supply in Seattle sells "conversion kits" for converting ice boxes to 12 VDC refrigerator. This seems like a sensible choice, and might even be good to build in right from the start. Does anyone have experience with these kits or any kind of application other than a drop in box? I am thinking that with 4" polyurethane foam that I'll be able to handle the power consumption with a pair of Grp 31 batteries. Does this seem reasonable? With precautions, use dry ice - nned to make sure it does not touch the surface of the cooler - wrap in a wrag maybe and sit on top of a wire mesh screen/box - will keep frozen things touching or very close - will refridgerate things further away - build a rack/sections in a cooler - dry ice lasts a long time if you do not open frequently and maintain an absolute tight seal - the main issue: dry ice availability - not sure how easy it is to get it - but dry ice is used often around halloween in haunted houses for the smoke effect - just a thought. |
DIY refrigerator in sailboat
Jim wrote:
On Feb 7, 8:43 pm, wrote: I'm building a 26 foot pilothouse sloop and the plans call for a large icebox. My experience doing the kind of cruising I expect to do on this boat is that finding ice consumes a lot of time, it doesn't last long, it takes up a lot of space, and the food items can get soggy if I am doing any hard sailing. I have noticed that Fisheries Supply in Seattle sells "conversion kits" for converting ice boxes to 12 VDC refrigerator. This seems like a sensible choice, and might even be good to build in right from the start. Does anyone have experience with these kits or any kind of application other than a drop in box? I am thinking that with 4" polyurethane foam that I'll be able to handle the power consumption with a pair of Grp 31 batteries. Does this seem reasonable? With precautions, use dry ice - nned to make sure it does not touch the surface of the cooler - wrap in a wrag maybe and sit on top of a wire mesh screen/box - will keep frozen things touching or very close - will refridgerate things further away - build a rack/sections in a cooler - dry ice lasts a long time if you do not open frequently and maintain an absolute tight seal - the main issue: dry ice availability - not sure how easy it is to get it - but dry ice is used often around halloween in haunted houses for the smoke effect - just a thought. Dry Ice is solid CO2 and that gas is heavier than air and *will* suffocate you given the chance. You'd need to keep your coolbox in a locker that had an overboard vent just like a gas locker. Its also *interesting* to drop a lump into a bucket of warm water, thats how they used to produce theatrical fog. Could be a bit of a nusance in a knockdown . . . -- Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED) ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk [at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL: 'Stingo' Albacore #1554 - 15' Early 60's, Uffa Fox designed, All varnished hot moulded wooden racing dinghy. |
DIY refrigerator in sailboat
Dave wrote:
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 13:05:31 -0500, Larry said: it uses the much-more-economical- to-operate, forbidden R-12 refridgerant That ought to get the enviros going. Why? New R-12 hasn't been made in 12 years. The problem with Larry's suggestion is that while there might be a small saving initially, I wouldn't have much hope of an ancient "dorm fridge" surviving in the marine environment for very long. And if it does leak out, how expensive do you think the repair and recharge would be? This is a reasonable solution for the back of an old van, not a very good one for a custom installation on a boat. An Engel would be a much better solution. |
DIY refrigerator in sailboat
Jeff wrote in
: The problem with Larry's suggestion is that while there might be a small saving initially, I wouldn't have much hope of an ancient "dorm fridge" surviving in the marine environment for very long. And if it does leak out, how expensive do you think the repair and recharge would be? This is a reasonable solution for the back of an old van, not a very good one for a custom installation on a boat. An Engel would be a much better solution. Considering I have $5 in it, how long does it have to "survive in the marine environment" to break even? A day? A week? A month??....(c; How long does an Adler-Barbour last for $1000? Larry -- VIRUS ALERT! VISTA has been released! NOONE will be spared! |
DIY refrigerator in sailboat
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 22:17:04 +0000, Ian Malcolm
wrote: Dry Ice is solid CO2 and that gas is heavier than air and *will* suffocate you given the chance. You'd need to keep your coolbox in a locker that had an overboard vent just like a gas locker. Nonsense. The real problem with dry ice is that is difficult to obtain many places. |
DIY refrigerator in sailboat
Larry wrote:
Jeff wrote in : The problem with Larry's suggestion is that while there might be a small saving initially, I wouldn't have much hope of an ancient "dorm fridge" surviving in the marine environment for very long. And if it does leak out, how expensive do you think the repair and recharge would be? This is a reasonable solution for the back of an old van, not a very good one for a custom installation on a boat. An Engel would be a much better solution. Considering I have $5 in it, how long does it have to "survive in the marine environment" to break even? A day? A week? A month??....(c; As I said, its no problem in the back of a van. When it dies, you swing by the recycle yard and drop it off. The OP was asking about installing on a small boat, which would require a custom installation. Are you seriously suggesting designing around something that someone else already threw out? How long does an Adler-Barbour last for $1000? The one in my old boat was going strong when I sold it at 16 years. And why would you pay $1000 for one? |
DIY refrigerator in sailboat
Everyone I know with an Engel raves about them. Not one has a complaint.
Their claims on power usage seems unreal, but they all insist it is really as low as they say. There is another option worth considering on a 26 footer: http://www.bigfrogmountain.com/engel_products.htm I have not personally owned one of these Engels but have heard good things about them. They should not be confused with the smaller, cheaper chests which use a solid state cooling device. The Engels have a real compressor in them, and power draw is supposedly reasonable. |
DIY refrigerator in sailboat
William Ewald wrote in
: Smuggling of freon from countries where it's still legal is a big problem, right after heroin in terms of volume. Shhh....The AC in my 1973 Mercedes was smuggled in in a sailboat. It cost 80c/16 oz can in the Caribbean. It was MADE IN TENNESEE A YEAR AGO! It's all bull****. Americans are being taken for a ride with R-134a. Larry -- VIRUS ALERT! VISTA has been released! NOONE will be spared! |
DIY refrigerator in sailboat
In article ,
Larry wrote: VIRUS ALERT! VISTA has been released! NOONE will be spared! apropos of nothing, but the above seems SO real. Those of us on alternate OSs will be spared. I'm well paid to support Windoze in the near future, but have Mac at home. UNIX is much more stable. Mac OS on top of UNIX makes the transition seamless. -- Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan's NEW Pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
DIY refrigerator in sailboat
Jere Lull wrote in news:jerelull-DE5725.19552809022007
@news.bellatlantic.net: UNIX is much more stable. That's very true, but what % of the software everyone wants to run....runs under Windoze? Owning a MAC has always meant being fleeced by Apple for proprietary software and left out of the freeware/shareware legacy. It's like standing on the sidelines all suited up to play football, but not allowed to play on the field. Apple's greed was long ago trumped by Billy letting OTHER people have easy access to port their programs to DOS. It was simply a stroke of genius on his part that made, no matter how you hate them, Micro$oft the standard for the PC. CP/M was quite stable, too, but it went nowhere. Remember the "other" DOS competitors he blew out of the water? PS2 anyone? Apple had their chance, got greedy as hell, and blew it. MAC is a very nice machine and quite stable....but it's NOT what the software is written for at tucows.com, download.com or any of the other shareware sites.... Vista will stablize...just like XP did...about 2 months before Micro$not abandons it for another buggy bloatware OS rendition. Win98SE is very stable....still! It downloads from usenet with Xnews for weeks without crashing, here....(c; Now, this is on-topic because we're running DOS 5 or 6 on boats....(c; Larry -- VIRUS ALERT! VISTA has been released! NOONE will be spared! |
DIY refrigerator in sailboat
On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 00:55:29 +0000, Jere Lull wrote:
Mac OS on top of UNIX makes the transition seamless. pedantic MacOS X _is_ a variant of BSD Unix; the offspring of Steve Jobs' NeXT computer experiment circa 1990 where his company created first the NeXTStep and then the OpenStep operating systems. Google the NeXT Cube. These beautifully designed machines are the platforms upon which Tim Berners-Lee created the "World Wide Web" at CERN. /pedantic as to nonsense about "needed" software, I know a thing or three about computers and as a Unix/Linux sysadmin and user, I haven't needed _any_ MS software for over 10 years now. Why other people aren't able to grasp this reality is beyond me. It ain't hard. If I can do it... My wife has used Mac exclusively for a year now and doesn't seem to be missing anything either. But then she wanted a computer, not an XBox. You are right. We will be spared. |
DIY refrigerator in sailboat
"mr.b" wrote in :
as to nonsense about "needed" software, I know a thing or three about computers and as a Unix/Linux sysadmin and user, I haven't needed _any_ MS software for over 10 years now. Why other people aren't able to grasp this Which Unix usenet client are you using? Larry -- VIRUS ALERT! VISTA has been released! NOONE will be spared! |
DIY refrigerator in sailboat
In article ,
Larry wrote: Jere Lull wrote in news:jerelull-DE5725.19552809022007 @news.bellatlantic.net: UNIX is much more stable. That's very true, but what % of the software everyone wants to run....runs under Windoze? Owning a MAC has always meant being fleeced by Apple for proprietary software and left out of the freeware/shareware legacy. It's like standing on the sidelines all suited up to play football, but not allowed to play on the field. Windoze has nothing to do with anything in my personal life, though I'm well paid to maintain it at work. Anything you want to run under Unix/Linex will run on a Mac. Just recompile it for BCD. The tools to do so are freely available, "freely" meaning zero cost. I don't own a MicroS..t product. Most of what I run is open source UNIX. And I'm an editor that has to make sense out of every incoming message, no matter how proprietary the encoding. Mac is very much NOT proprietary these days. But there are a few Mac programs that you will have to pry from my cold dead hands. They're inspired, or more properly, the programmers were. ===== And if there were some Windoze program that I absolutely had to run, I can load up any Windoze OS and run it alongside OS X at full speed. You just won't see me running XP or Vista unless I absolutely positively had to run it as I hate the drek that comes with running Windoze OSs. -- Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan's NEW Pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/ Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
DIY refrigerator in sailboat
just to throw a spanner in the works
NORCOLD is ENGEL The long tubular compressor that another poster mentioned is the engel/norcold compressor. the reason i know is a friend of mine is the dealer/repairer for these in WA http://www.engeland.com.au/ he has often done conversions from the norcold to the engel. Norcold is often 110v and Engel is often 240v on freeze they will draw 5 amp on refridge i think is is 2 amp. on the newer models the older models draw more power 7 and 3 i think i helped another friend install one into my old boat(i sold the boat to him and now he is a friend him) he built the suround in foam and glass with a small division so that it had 2 chambers one is fridge the other freezer works fine and all he has is 2 300 cca car batterys with 2 solar panels. he plugs it into mains to draw it down then as soon a he leaves it auto switches to 12v. so far it has worked very well for up to 2weeks constant with out out side power. Shaun |
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