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Prices on used boats
A while back there were several threads on values of used boats. It was the
strong assertion of various posters that boats under 45' and of mature age would be virtually worthless - to the effect that whatever you bought it for, when you went to sell it, it would be worth half that. I'm of very mixed mind on this matter, as I've found just the opposite. Any of you following my search know that I'm looking at that type of boat, and in the 'do you know this boat' thread, I've received several replies which have exposed us to boats we'd not known about. In an effort to get to know these, all very minimally available in the usual YachtWorld universe, I've done a lot of searching, and unearthed various reviews from '95 to '99 or so. Most of them were helpful in understanding the type of boat, but very tellingly, and the point of this post, they also had "well equipped and good examples of this boat's selling prices range"s quoted which were *under* any I'd found available today. That suggests to me that either Cruising World, Good Old Boat, and the like, are badly misinformed (at the time) or that prices are actually rising, rather than falling. That's good news as a trend for when we eventually go to sell our boat (presumably more than 20 years down the road, so I'm certain that the 20-30 year old boat we'll buy will be priced exclusively on condition and equipment, the full normal depreciation having been achieved some time before). I've even seen some of the boats we've been looking at in real time (current experience) have price increases, and in one particular case, selling at the prior asking price. The bad news is the suggestion that it's going to cost more currently than, say, 4-8 years ago, for the same boat type. What's been everyone else' experience?? If we don't find a boat soon, will it cost us 10%, or something bigger, more, later? L8R Skip and Lydia, still looking, and appreciative of leads already and yet to be received! |
Prices on used boats
Skip Gundlach wrote:
In an effort to get to know these, all very minimally available in the usual YachtWorld universe, I've done a lot of searching, and unearthed various reviews from '95 to '99 or so. Most of them were helpful in understanding the type of boat, but very tellingly, and the point of this post, they also had "well equipped and good examples of this boat's selling prices range"s quoted which were *under* any I'd found available today. Skip, If you are using YachtWorld as your "boat catalog", and if you have a broker that is working for *you* not the seller, you can ask your broker to obtain a list of the *actual* selling prices for a sampling of a particular type of boat. (YachtWorld member brokers are supposed to report this information.) Compare this with the asking prices and throw out the extremes (boats that sold for their full asking price and boats that sold for a small fraction of their asking price) and you should be able to get a good idea of what your target boat is actually selling for. Of course there's no hard-fast rule. Ultimately a boat is worth what a buyer is willing to pay for it. This may or may not be close to what the seller is willing to part with it for. My father used to say that if both the buyer and the seller feel that they were ripped off, then it was probably a pretty good deal. BTW, if you win the lottery there's a boat on page 34 of the new (Oct 03) issue of "Sailing" that might meet your needs. ;-) Cindy |
Prices on used boats
"Skip Gundlach" wrote:
A while back there were several threads on values of used boats. It was the strong assertion of various posters that boats under 45' and of mature age would be virtually worthless - to the effect that whatever you bought it for, when you went to sell it, it would be worth half that. I'm of very mixed mind on this matter, as I've found just the opposite. Any of you following my search know that I'm looking at that type of boat, and in the 'do you know this boat' thread, I've received several replies which have exposed us to boats we'd not known about. In an effort to get to know these, all very minimally available in the usual YachtWorld universe, I've done a lot of searching, and unearthed various reviews from '95 to '99 or so. Most of them were helpful in understanding the type of boat, but very tellingly, and the point of this post, they also had "well equipped and good examples of this boat's selling prices range"s quoted which were *under* any I'd found available today. That suggests to me that either Cruising World, Good Old Boat, and the like, are badly misinformed (at the time) or that prices are actually rising, rather than falling. I think this is the result of two different effects. One is that inflation has some effect on prices, so that even a boat that was not moving up or down in price will appear to be selling for more now than it did 5 years ago. The other thing in operation is the reputation and desirability of various boats. A boat with a good reputation for being well constructed will hold its value better than a boat with the reputation of being flimsily made. And some boats are rarer and therefore some people find those boats more desirable than normal market pressures would account for. That's good news as a trend for when we eventually go to sell our boat (presumably more than 20 years down the road, so I'm certain that the 20-30 year old boat we'll buy will be priced exclusively on condition and equipment, the full normal depreciation having been achieved some time before). I've even seen some of the boats we've been looking at in real time (current experience) have price increases, and in one particular case, selling at the prior asking price. The bad news is the suggestion that it's going to cost more currently than, say, 4-8 years ago, for the same boat type. What's been everyone else' experience?? If we don't find a boat soon, will it cost us 10%, or something bigger, more, later? L8R Skip and Lydia, still looking, and appreciative of leads already and yet to be received! grandma Rosalie |
Prices on used boats
I'm sure you've done a lot more research on this than I have, but my brief
look at prices over the last 2 years says they are down a fair amount. Paul "Skip Gundlach" wrote in message nk.net... A while back there were several threads on values of used boats. It was the strong assertion of various posters that boats under 45' and of mature age would be virtually worthless - to the effect that whatever you bought it for, when you went to sell it, it would be worth half that. I'm of very mixed mind on this matter, as I've found just the opposite. Any of you following my search know that I'm looking at that type of boat, and in the 'do you know this boat' thread, I've received several replies which have exposed us to boats we'd not known about. In an effort to get to know these, all very minimally available in the usual YachtWorld universe, I've done a lot of searching, and unearthed various reviews from '95 to '99 or so. Most of them were helpful in understanding the type of boat, but very tellingly, and the point of this post, they also had "well equipped and good examples of this boat's selling prices range"s quoted which were *under* any I'd found available today. That suggests to me that either Cruising World, Good Old Boat, and the like, are badly misinformed (at the time) or that prices are actually rising, rather than falling. That's good news as a trend for when we eventually go to sell our boat (presumably more than 20 years down the road, so I'm certain that the 20-30 year old boat we'll buy will be priced exclusively on condition and equipment, the full normal depreciation having been achieved some time before). I've even seen some of the boats we've been looking at in real time (current experience) have price increases, and in one particular case, selling at the prior asking price. The bad news is the suggestion that it's going to cost more currently than, say, 4-8 years ago, for the same boat type. What's been everyone else' experience?? If we don't find a boat soon, will it cost us 10%, or something bigger, more, later? L8R Skip and Lydia, still looking, and appreciative of leads already and yet to be received! |
Prices on used boats
I think that simple demographics dictate that boat prices *must* go
down. The majority of potential boat buyers...esp. distance cruisers...are getting older fast, and while they may have the money, they don't have the time or energy in many cases. My wife was born in 1974 during the depths of the "baby bust". Despite having a somewhat stale degree, she has been told that if she decides to become a high-school science teacher at the age of 30, she will have a job for life....because all the boomers are retiring, but few are buying boats. In many cases, it takes two incomes to live as well as our parents did (I'm 42), and to own an urban house and a boat and a car and a cottage...well, the boat goes first, unless you are dedicated to upping anchor and becoming a live-aboard for years. Few are. This is bad news for the industry (which is locked into producing dock jewelry anyway) and good news for the few people shopping for a middle-aged, uncomplicated, bulletproof design. Hang around Florida and scan the obits. in Ft. Lauderdale, etc. Grim as it sounds, you'll soon find a widow motivated to sell quick. The kids won't want to sail when it means their kids will miss Suzuki Method, soccer practice, or the latest gangsta rap MP3. R. On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:50:27 GMT, "Paul L" wrote: I'm sure you've done a lot more research on this than I have, but my brief look at prices over the last 2 years says they are down a fair amount. Paul "Skip Gundlach" wrote in message ink.net... A while back there were several threads on values of used boats. It was the strong assertion of various posters that boats under 45' and of mature age would be virtually worthless - to the effect that whatever you bought it for, when you went to sell it, it would be worth half that. I'm of very mixed mind on this matter, as I've found just the opposite. Any of you following my search know that I'm looking at that type of boat, and in the 'do you know this boat' thread, I've received several replies which have exposed us to boats we'd not known about. In an effort to get to know these, all very minimally available in the usual YachtWorld universe, I've done a lot of searching, and unearthed various reviews from '95 to '99 or so. Most of them were helpful in understanding the type of boat, but very tellingly, and the point of this post, they also had "well equipped and good examples of this boat's selling prices range"s quoted which were *under* any I'd found available today. That suggests to me that either Cruising World, Good Old Boat, and the like, are badly misinformed (at the time) or that prices are actually rising, rather than falling. That's good news as a trend for when we eventually go to sell our boat (presumably more than 20 years down the road, so I'm certain that the 20-30 year old boat we'll buy will be priced exclusively on condition and equipment, the full normal depreciation having been achieved some time before). I've even seen some of the boats we've been looking at in real time (current experience) have price increases, and in one particular case, selling at the prior asking price. The bad news is the suggestion that it's going to cost more currently than, say, 4-8 years ago, for the same boat type. What's been everyone else' experience?? If we don't find a boat soon, will it cost us 10%, or something bigger, more, later? L8R Skip and Lydia, still looking, and appreciative of leads already and yet to be received! |
Prices on used boats
Peggie Hall wrote:
...more than 2/3 of all boats sold today are used boats... Peggie, Is this an actual number or a guess on your part? If real, I'm amazed that the number isn't much higher. At least for larger boats, of all the people I've known who own sailboats, there's only one that I know of that actually bought a new boat - perhaps that's why the yacht club I used to belong to was sometimes self-described as the "poor white trash of yacht clubs" ;-} Had we restricted ourselves to buying a new boat for what we paid for our used Tayana, we would have been limited to an unequiped Catalina 27 (or similar boat). Buying used was a complete no brainer. I honestly don't know who buys new boats, but it sure isn't us. btw, thanks for being such a great resource. You fill an information need here and elsewhere on the net like no one else. -- Dan Best - (707) 431-1662, Healdsburg, CA 95448 B-2/75 1977-1979 Tayana 37 #192, "Tricia Jean" http://rangerbest.home.comcast.net/TriciaJean.JPG |
Prices on used boats
I know two people who bought new boats in the last 5 years. One of them
is a female physician. Good income, possibly limited "fix-it" skills, limited time. She bought a mid 30's Tartan. The other, a bankruptcy attorney, has bought two new boats in the last 5 years. The first was a 23-24 ft Beneteau, the second, a Catalina 36. Same profile, limited "fix-it" skills, high income, etc. He spoke of a "good trade in" value for the first boat. I shudder to think of the depreciation of the Catalina until it's value stabilizes. FWIW Jonathan Daniel E. Best wrote: Peggie Hall wrote: ...more than 2/3 of all boats sold today are used boats... Peggie, Is this an actual number or a guess on your part? If real, I'm amazed that the number isn't much higher. At least for larger boats, of all the people I've known who own sailboats, there's only one that I know of that actually bought a new boat - perhaps that's why the yacht club I used to belong to was sometimes self-described as the "poor white trash of yacht clubs" ;-} Had we restricted ourselves to buying a new boat for what we paid for our used Tayana, we would have been limited to an unequiped Catalina 27 (or similar boat). Buying used was a complete no brainer. I honestly don't know who buys new boats, but it sure isn't us. btw, thanks for being such a great resource. You fill an information need here and elsewhere on the net like no one else. |
Prices on used boats
I like your analysis on new boats. Makes sense that they will increase in
price, beyond inflation, as demand/volume goes down. There doesn't seem to be any great 'productivity' gains being applied to building new boats that would drive the prices down like desktop PCs. Proucdtion has already been moved overseas. So what does this really mean for the used boat market? Less new boats coming on the market, prices go up, less overall demand, prices go down. ??? Paul www.jcruiser.org "Peggie Hall" wrote in message ... wrote: I think that simple demographics dictate that boat prices *must* go down. The majority of potential boat buyers...esp. distance cruisers...are getting older fast, and while they may have the money, they don't have the time or energy in many cases. Great logic, but unfortunately it doesn't work. More than 2/3 of the boats sold today are used boats...a reflection of a market that's becoming saturated. However, instead of driving down the prices of new boats, this actually drives prices up...because boat builders have fixed expenses...and the more units they can build and sell, the more units their fixed expenses can be amortised over, driving prices down...but the fewer units they can sell, the more they have to sell 'em for just to stay in business. So the net result: instead of prices going down, fewer choices at higher prices...and a market that just keeps on becoming more and more saturated...until there may not be ANY market for new boats at all. My last boat was 16 yrs old when I bought her....21 when I sold her (at a small profit, btw). She was most assuredly a "project" boat--nothing on her worked...but she was sound. I paid $25k for her...spend another $20k replacing/upgrading everything on her...evening adding a bunch of things--like an icemaker. Total investment for a boat that, except for the hull, WAS a new boat that had every "bell and whistle" any 'floating condo' buyer could want: $45k. Comparable new: $175-$195k. So why would anyone buy new when they have it all for 1/4 the price? I'm not the only person to figure that out...which is why more than 2/3 of all boats sold today are used boats...and why the prices of new boats can only keep going up to keep the boat builders in business. Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detai...=400&group=327 http://www.seaworthy.com/html/get_ri...oat_odors.html |
Prices on used boats
Daniel E. Best wrote:
Peggie Hall wrote: ...more than 2/3 of all boats sold today are used boats... Peggie, Is this an actual number or a guess on your part? If real, I'm amazed that the number isn't much higher. It's real...the last numbers I saw were 67%. They're a few years old, so the current number could be even higher. At least for larger boats, of all the people I've known who own sailboats, there's only one that I know of that actually bought a new boat - perhaps that's why the yacht club I used to belong to was sometimes self-described as the "poor white trash of yacht clubs" ;-} If yours was, mine was too. My dock at my YC had 16 slips...all the boats on it were 30-42', not a one newer than 15 years old, the oldest was a 1970...all beautifully restored and updated. We had one empty slip, which was taken by a new member with a brand new 36' aft cabin cruiser...who couldn't quite manage to hide his disdain for our old "dowager queens"...till he finally figured out that all of us were equally unimpressed by the fact that he was the only person on the dock making boat payments...we'd all paid cash--about what his down payment was--and put what we would have paid a bank into restoration...and our boats had all the "bells and whistles" his did. But I guess somebody has to buy new boats...otherwise, there wouldn't be any old ones TO restore. :) btw, thanks for being such a great resource. You fill an information need here and elsewhere on the net like no one else. Thanks for the kind words! Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detai...=400&group=327 http://www.seaworthy.com/html/get_ri...oat_odors.html |
Prices on used boats
Paul L wrote:
I like your analysis on new boats. Makes sense that they will increase in price, beyond inflation, as demand/volume goes down. There doesn't seem to be any great 'productivity' gains being applied to building new boats that would drive the prices down like desktop PCs. The market for boats is miniscule compared to the market for PCs and cars...there are only 12 million registrered boats in the whole country...not very many in a population of 300 million. But the cost of building 'em is even higher than the costs of building cars and PCs. That gives boat builders on two choices: charge more for 'em, or go out of business--which a lot of have done. 90% of the names today belong to companies who bought little more than the rights to put those names on their boats...Cape Dory, Chris Craft (now owned by a UK company), Trojan, Carver, Bertram, just to name a few. Pearson is gone altogether...so is Columbia, California and at least a dozen more. That's why the favorite joke among boat builders is, "How do you make a million $$ in the boat business? Start with $2 million and get out quick!" Proucdtion has already been moved overseas. So what does this really mean for the used boat market? Less new boats coming on the market, prices go up, less overall demand, prices go down. ??? Used boat prices are tied to the economy....the minute it starts to get soft, people start unloading non-essentials, flooding the market, driving price down. When it's strong, people buy non-essentials like boats...no glut, higher prices. However, unlike the real estate market, boat prices never get ridiculously high, they only recover to normal--adjusted for inflation--for age and condition. They can, however, get ridiculously low in bad times. Great for people who have cash and want to buy...not so great if you have a boat and have to sell. Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detai...=400&group=327 http://www.seaworthy.com/html/get_ri...oat_odors.html |
Prices on used boats
"Skip Gundlach" wrote in message nk.net... A while back there were several threads on values of used boats. It was the strong assertion of various posters that boats under 45' and of mature age would be virtually worthless - to the effect that whatever you bought it for, when you went to sell it, it would be worth half that. I'm of very mixed mind on this matter, as I've found just the opposite. Any of you following my search know that I'm looking at that type of boat, and in the 'do you know this boat' thread, I've received several replies which have exposed us to boats we'd not known about. In an effort to get to know these, all very minimally available in the usual YachtWorld universe, I've done a lot of searching, and unearthed various reviews from '95 to '99 or so. Most of them were helpful in understanding the type of boat, but very tellingly, and the point of this post, they also had "well equipped and good examples of this boat's selling prices range"s quoted which were *under* any I'd found available today. That suggests to me that either Cruising World, Good Old Boat, and the like, are badly misinformed (at the time) or that prices are actually rising, rather than falling. That's good news as a trend for when we eventually go to sell our boat (presumably more than 20 years down the road, so I'm certain that the 20-30 year old boat we'll buy will be priced exclusively on condition and equipment, the full normal depreciation having been achieved some time before). I've even seen some of the boats we've been looking at in real time (current experience) have price increases, and in one particular case, selling at the prior asking price. The bad news is the suggestion that it's going to cost more currently than, say, 4-8 years ago, for the same boat type. What's been everyone else' experience?? If we don't find a boat soon, will it cost us 10%, or something bigger, more, later? L8R Skip and Lydia, still looking, and appreciative of leads already and yet to be received! I have been following your posts because I too have been looking to buy. My feeling is that you will never find what you want because you do not understand that all boats are a compromise, especially when you are looking with limited funds, and you don't want to compromise. However, I also understand the headroom issue. It is the only time when it seems to be advantageous for me to be short. Maybe you should take up basketball ;-) I have been looking at used boats but usually I get turned off by the condition of the vessels. I just don't have the time or ambition to be fixing somebody else's problems. The only thing harder to do than buy a decent boat is to try and sell one. Notice how long some of them have been on the market. I do not see prices of used boats going up, but that is just my unscientific survey over the last year or so. It also seems like that after about 5 years, the boats stop depreciating at a rapid pace, and the salt hasn't corroded everything yet. Another thing, if you buy a boat that is not very well known, you will have more trouble selling it - no matter how nice it is. People buy brands that they know. Has to be the reason why certain brands sell - they are known - and you know which ones I mean, because they are not very well done. BTW, have you noticed that almost all of the sail boat makers are now making power boats? Maybe we need another oil crisis. Good luck Captain. |
Prices on used boats
Hi, Bill, and group,
"Bill" wrote in message ... I have been following your posts because I too have been looking to buy. My feeling is that you will never find what you want because you do not understand that all boats are a compromise, especially when you are looking with limited funds, and you don't want to compromise. However, I also understand the headroom issue. It is the only time when it seems to be advantageous for me to be short. Maybe you should take up basketball ;-) Heh. Too short for basketball, too tall for boats. Actually, we're quite prepared to make lots of compromises. However, compromises which make us miserable to be in the boat are self-defeating. As to me, if I could be self-defeeting, I'd be a lot shorter, and we'd already be aboard! :{)) The good news is that we've received several leads to boats we didn't previously know about, and at least some of them appear as though they'd work. I'm going to be looking at some of them in the next round of search, most likely late October or early November. I have been looking at used boats but usually I get turned off by the condition of the vessels. I just don't have the time or ambition to be fixing somebody else's problems. Interestingly, to us, there have been quite a few *very* nice boats in a reasonable price range (well, of course, reasonable is entirely in the realm of the holder's purse) - I just couldn't fit aboard. Natcherly, if one expects to have a 'perfect' boat, it would have to be new, and we were not the least misled about that going in. Recall that we did two 4th-tier charters specifically for the purpose of getting acquainted with poorly maintained elderly boats... But, back to the top of the para, if you have the same tastes as we, and a similar budget, I can point you to lots of suitable boats. The only thing harder to do than buy a decent boat is to try and sell one. Notice how long some of them have been on the market. That's another conundrum. It appears that unless there's a distress situation (with an accompanying major price adjustment, and, often, a distinct bargain), an awful lot of boats remain unsold for extended periods of time. OTOH, there are those which come and go almost immediately. I do not see prices of used boats going up, but that is just my unscientific survey over the last year or so. It also seems like that after about 5 years, the boats stop depreciating at a rapid pace, and the salt hasn't corroded everything yet. In our case, we'll be very surprised if we find anything newer than 15, and more likely 20, years old which will fit our budget. We've found that most of the ones we're able to consider are pretty well packed into the same price range per type. The bigger and newer they get, the wider that range seems to be, however. Another thing, if you buy a boat that is not very well known, you will have more trouble selling it - no matter how nice it is. People buy brands that they know. Has to be the reason why certain brands sell - they are known - and you know which ones I mean, because they are not very well done. Indeed - however, it's those in which the upward price movement has been noted (mostly because we didn't research far enough [we didn't have to, in order to find out about the type] into better known models - it may well be the case that had we researched older articles, the better known models would have had that phenomenon as well) - which gives us comfort. Realistically, however, we'll either love it, and spend most - if not all - the rest of our lives on it, or get right off. If the former, we'll have gotten our money's worth out of it; if the latter, we'll have a brokerage experience tax to move back ashore... BTW, have you noticed that almost all of the sail boat makers are now making power boats? Maybe we need another oil crisis. That was true in the time of the generation of boats we're looking at, too. Some of them were motor sailors, but there were others which were motor yachts (from which the motor sailors' hulls sometimes were pulled). Different strokes for Different Folks, and all that. Good luck Captain. :{)) Thanks. I'm optimistic, and Lydia's stopped gnawing at the second knuckle and started whining ("go buy that boat, right now, OK??"), so we're getting there, slowly but surely. L8R Skip and Lydia |
Prices on used boats
"Skip Gundlach" I hate to be the one to break the news to you, but all the good well maintained boats in this part of the world are being bought up. Brokers are crying for listings of GOOD boats that will sell. I sold mine for full asking price and could have gotten 5k more. A friend of mine put his Oyster 45 on the market and has had two offers in less than a month. Low balling boats is soon to be a thing of the past and watch for a dramatic price increase in good used boat prices. There are still the project boats that need total restoration but owners of these junkers will start asking more because they see the good boats getting top dollar and they are to stupid to see that theirs is junk. My advice is to bite the bullet and buy that MarkII and get started or some boat that meet 80% of your dream boat. I have watched you in your efforts for over a year and I think that if you keep this up,all the boats will be $10,000 less than you are willing to pay, and you will never get started cruising. Good Luck Bruce |
Prices on used boats
Bruce wrote:
... Low balling boats is soon to be a thing of the past and watch for a dramatic price increase in good used boat prices. ... I hope you're right since I already own a boat. IMHO much depends on the stock markets which in turn control 401Ks and other investment funds. I was unwilling to exhaust my savings or sign up for payments after the near crash following Bush's election knocked 25% out of my retirement savings. Today, I'd have bought/financed a newer, bigger boat that needed less work - tho I'm quite pleased with our old Catalina 30 - or even paid the asking price for it instead of 40% less. When the DOW goes over 10 again, just befor the election, prices will no doubt climb accordingly. After that ... who knows?? Only thing worse than tax-and-spend Democrats is a borrow-to-spend-more Republican. |
Prices on used boats
I hate to be the one to break the news to you, but all the good well
maintained boats in this part of the world are being bought up. Brokers are crying for listings of GOOD boats that will sell. What part of the world is that? The US economy is still a shadow and there are plenty of deals out there. Of course one rarely finds a deal through a broker. Why just two weeks ago I met a fellow who bought a very nice C&C 37XL for just 85K. A close friend just bought a Pearson 37 for 52K. Well below market value and a profit to be made on sale day. I see deals all of the time, but it means taking time (and of course having time available) to walk the docks and see what's cooking. RB C&C 32 NY |
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