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Raster charts now free
A friend and professional mariner passed this on to me. Maybe it's old news
here, I haven't been following the issue. But, just in case anyone hasn't heard: MapTech's agreement with NOAA for raster charts has expired and NOAA has now made its raster charts available for free online. This means that you can get entire raster chart collections for free from NOAA. There 1,016 BSB format charts online at NOAA's website, but the maximum that can be downloaded at one time is 100. So if you're intent on suddenly accumulating a complete chart library of the U.S., it may take you some time and effort. But if you're only looking for a few specific areas, or for updating your existing library, this is the easy way to do it. The gov't continues to update these charts electronically as necessary. Several private firms -- MapTech, Nobeltec, Richardson's, etc. -- are repackaging these raster charts for sale on CDs and DVDs. Sometimes you can get such a disk free as a sales premium, if you buy another navigational product from the same vendor. For more information and downloads: http://nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/mcd/Raster/Index.htm The gov't is also making vector charts available for free on-line down-load, but the available number is less, and the vector charts are for some reason more difficult to download. The vector charts are also more difficult to use, but that's a personal opinion. To me, vector charts just don't look real; on my computer console a vector chart reminds me of a video game. -- Roger Long |
Raster charts now free
NOAA made them available about a year to 18 months ago, if memory serves.
I agree with you on raster looking more real and, on Fugawi at least, zooming in and out seems more tedious. But Fugawi ENC ships with a CD that has 3-D topography of some (don't the extent) coastal regions that work with the vector charts that could be useful in identifying entrances, etc. Don't know if these are available from NOAA nor what one would need to view them. BF "Roger Long" wrote in message ... A friend and professional mariner passed this on to me. Maybe it's old news here, I haven't been following the issue. But, just in case anyone hasn't heard: MapTech's agreement with NOAA for raster charts has expired and NOAA has now made its raster charts available for free online. This means that you can get entire raster chart collections for free from NOAA. There 1,016 BSB format charts online at NOAA's website, but the maximum that can be downloaded at one time is 100. So if you're intent on suddenly accumulating a complete chart library of the U.S., it may take you some time and effort. But if you're only looking for a few specific areas, or for updating your existing library, this is the easy way to do it. The gov't continues to update these charts electronically as necessary. Several private firms -- MapTech, Nobeltec, Richardson's, etc. -- are repackaging these raster charts for sale on CDs and DVDs. Sometimes you can get such a disk free as a sales premium, if you buy another navigational product from the same vendor. For more information and downloads: http://nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/mcd/Raster/Index.htm The gov't is also making vector charts available for free on-line down-load, but the available number is less, and the vector charts are for some reason more difficult to download. The vector charts are also more difficult to use, but that's a personal opinion. To me, vector charts just don't look real; on my computer console a vector chart reminds me of a video game. -- Roger Long |
Raster charts now free
ENC chart URL: http://nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/mcd/enc/index.htm
The 'neat' thing about ENC charts (expecially if you have a 'mac' running MacENC) is you can overlay GRIB weather info. A good forum for Mac integration with AIS, GRIB, Course (tack angle) optimization, etc. is http://nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/mcd/enc/index.htm ... and the best part is that the most 'elegant' macintosh platform for both ENC and Raster is $99.00 In article , BF wrote: NOAA made them available about a year to 18 months ago, if memory serves. I agree with you on raster looking more real and, on Fugawi at least, zooming in and out seems more tedious. But Fugawi ENC ships with a CD that has 3-D topography of some (don't the extent) coastal regions that work with the vector charts that could be useful in identifying entrances, etc. Don't know if these are available from NOAA nor what one would need to view them. BF "Roger Long" wrote in message ... A friend and professional mariner passed this on to me. Maybe it's old news here, I haven't been following the issue. But, just in case anyone hasn't heard: MapTech's agreement with NOAA for raster charts has expired and NOAA has now made its raster charts available for free online. This means that you can get entire raster chart collections for free from NOAA. There 1,016 BSB format charts online at NOAA's website, but the maximum that can be downloaded at one time is 100. So if you're intent on suddenly accumulating a complete chart library of the U.S., it may take you some time and effort. But if you're only looking for a few specific areas, or for updating your existing library, this is the easy way to do it. The gov't continues to update these charts electronically as necessary. Several private firms -- MapTech, Nobeltec, Richardson's, etc. -- are repackaging these raster charts for sale on CDs and DVDs. Sometimes you can get such a disk free as a sales premium, if you buy another navigational product from the same vendor. For more information and downloads: http://nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/mcd/Raster/Index.htm The gov't is also making vector charts available for free on-line down-load, but the available number is less, and the vector charts are for some reason more difficult to download. The vector charts are also more difficult to use, but that's a personal opinion. To me, vector charts just don't look real; on my computer console a vector chart reminds me of a video game. -- Roger Long |
Raster charts now free
Roger Long wrote:
A friend and professional mariner passed this on to me. Maybe it's old news here, I haven't been following the issue. But, just in case anyone hasn't heard: MapTech's agreement with NOAA for raster charts has expired and NOAA has now made its raster charts available for free online. This means that you can get entire raster chart collections for free from NOAA. There 1,016 BSB format charts online at NOAA's website, but the maximum that can be downloaded at one time is 100. So if you're intent on suddenly accumulating a complete chart library of the U.S., it may take you some time and effort. But if you're only looking for a few specific areas, or for updating your existing library, this is the easy way to do it. The gov't continues to update these charts electronically as necessary. Several private firms -- MapTech, Nobeltec, Richardson's, etc. -- are repackaging these raster charts for sale on CDs and DVDs. Sometimes you can get such a disk free as a sales premium, if you buy another navigational product from the same vendor. For more information and downloads: http://nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/mcd/Raster/Index.htm The gov't is also making vector charts available for free on-line down-load, but the available number is less, and the vector charts are for some reason more difficult to download. The vector charts are also more difficult to use, but that's a personal opinion. To me, vector charts just don't look real; on my computer console a vector chart reminds me of a video game. These have been available for over a year. Only problem is they are only the US, Puerto Rico, and USVI. |
Raster charts now free
On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 13:22:14 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote: The vector charts are also more difficult to use, but that's a personal opinion. To me, vector charts just don't look real; on my computer console a vector chart reminds me of a video game. I agree with you on the appearance of vector charts but they have a couple of advantages also that are not immediately obvious. For one, they can be zoomed in or out to what ever degree of detail is appropriate without becoming pixelated or having the type fonts become too small. Another advantage is that they can be electronically rotated and still have the fonts appear right side up. |
Raster charts now free
Wayne.B wrote:
I agree with you on the appearance Actually, you're agreeing with my friend. I'm still using paper myself although with the GPS as an adjunct. -- Roger Long |
Raster charts now free
There is an inherent DANGER in using ENC/vector charts.
You have to carefully note the 'magnification' of the original chart and not exceed this limit as OVERMAGNIFICATION will result in some pretty strange errors of 'resolution'. One must remember that the 'basis' of many of the charts were leadline, pelorous, etc. and to simply OVERMAGNIFY them can get you into serious trouble real fast as the overmagnification is easy .... and very foolish. Resolution errors are very easy to do on most of the NOAA charts .... an example would be trying to read a 'yardstick' down to 0.001 inches. or reading a simple mercury theermometer to 0.01 degress. You can do so with graphical magnification .... but the answer is nearly ALWAYS wrong. In article , Wayne.B wrote: On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 13:22:14 GMT, "Roger Long" wrote: The vector charts are also more difficult to use, but that's a personal opinion. To me, vector charts just don't look real; on my computer console a vector chart reminds me of a video game. I agree with you on the appearance of vector charts but they have a couple of advantages also that are not immediately obvious. For one, they can be zoomed in or out to what ever degree of detail is appropriate without becoming pixelated or having the type fonts become too small. Another advantage is that they can be electronically rotated and still have the fonts appear right side up. |
Raster charts now free
Rich Hampel wrote:
... OVERMAGNIFICATION will result in some pretty strange errors of 'resolution'. .... I've not used the ENC charts but am very familiar with C-Map and Transis vector charts. Over magnification with these systems produces an image rendered with noticeable polygons. All of the chart rendering programs I've used display warnings when over zoomed and some also refuse to render over magnified charts. Anyway, I don't recall any 'strange errors of resolution. One must remember that the 'basis' of many of the charts were leadline, pelorous, etc. and to simply OVERMAGNIFY them can get you into serious trouble real fast as the overmagnification is easy .... and very foolish. ... It would be nice if all the notes and diagrams that appear on paper charts were always reproduced on the digital versions. If you are looking at a chart that is based on a 19th century survey and has a diagram of soundings that is mostly white then you are well advised to keep a particularly good watch. I'm not sure that these kinds of problems are more acute with digital media than with paper. However, the digital chart error that I see getting most people into trouble is using a non wgs correctable digital chart with a gps and has nothing to do with magnification. Could you be more specific about the trouble you have seen that has been caused by over magnification of vector charts? -- Tom. |
Raster charts now free
On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 18:58:45 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote: Actually, you're agreeing with my friend. I'm still using paper myself although with the GPS as an adjunct. Olde school, very olde. If you sail in one general area that you come to know, love and have all of the paper charts for, it's not so bad. I sailed like that on Long Island Sound and points east for many years. These days however when we are cruising thousands of miles per year, to many different areas, the idea of navigating only it with paper charts would be daunting indeed. I carry chart books for backup but most of them never get opened. |
Raster charts now free
On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 20:53:15 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote: ou can do so with graphical magnification .... but the answer is nearly ALWAYS wrong. Wrong is relative, and it depends on the chart. Most of my vector charts for US waters with stable shorelines are accurate to within 50 or 60 feet. If you are 50 feet away from your charted position, is that wrong? It depends. 99% of the time 50 feet is good enough to bring you into line with a Mark I eyeball fix, and that's good enough for me. For those areas with unstable inlets, shorelines and/or 1800s survey data, the type of chart makes very little difference. They are no better than a general guideline to get you started. |
Raster charts now free
Here's what I think the OP is getting at:
http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Vector.jpg CAD, which I also use a lot is vector based so lines are mathematically thin. They don't get thicker as you zoom in. The view on the left, drawn with CAD, is true scale so the boat is a comfortable distance from the sounding line. In the view on the right, the line is zoomed 1000 times. If the system generated icon showing your boat doesn't scale at the same time as the view, you get an image which makes it look like you are still a comfortable distance off. But, it this view, the distance to the sounding line is only a few inches. Throw in normal chart inaccuracy and, THUNK! -- Roger Long |
Raster charts now free
Wayne.B wrote:
In Maine, except for the Portland Harbor channels, I use charts just as much in waters I'm familiar with as in new areas. It's pretty much mandatory in our complex geography. If I had a powerboat or a larger sailboat with a pilothouse, dedicated nav station, and crew to do a lot of the other tasks, I would certainly have a full electronic set up with electronic charts, chart plotters, etc. Setting up and using something like that was a primary reason for thinking about getting a powerboat when we first decided to get back into boating. On the sailboat however, it's a different dynamic, a different mindset, keeping it simple is part of the charm. I actually find that I prefer the chartbooks more in unfamiliar areas. Maybe it's just being old enough to have run fog clock and compass back in the days when only a few boats had Loran and they had cathode ray displays where you had to turn knobs to match pulse rates. Budgets and the physical realities of small sailboat life dictate a small GPS. I use the chartbook for overall situational awareness and the GPS for the close in view and position. It's a nice compromise that doesn't make me feel I'm getting too far from my roots. If I were cruising in a boat like yours, I'm sure I would have and greatly enjoy using pretty much the same set up you have. You ought to open up those chart books though. It's a lot more enjoyable anticipating and planning the next day's cruising with those nice paper graphics in your hand than looking at a LCD display. -- Roger Long |
Raster charts now free
Oops. Wayne B. didn't write that, I did. That little header slipped up out
of the window when I erased the quote. -- Roger Long |
Raster charts now free
Submitted for your approval:
Here are two pics taken from Coastal Explorer using raster and vector charts of Vineyard Haven. The photo is superimposed, merged in about 50%. http://www.sv-loki.com/VHVectorPhoto.jpg http://www.sv-loki.com/VHRasterPhoto.jpg Note that in the Vector version, many of the features are mis-aligned. In particular, the breakwater falls short about 100 feet, which could cause an embarrassing situation in the fog. These charts were what "came" with the system, there was no special effort to setup certain charts - I simply zoomed on on one of my favorite spots and selected vector and then raster charts only. The raster chart is 1:10,000 "HARBOR" type, 4/1/06 The vector chart is also listed as "HARBOR" but is only 1:40,000. If you click on the correct info panel, it shows the following in red: "WARNING! The data in this area is incomplete. Dangers to navigation exist in this area and are not included. The mariner is advised to use the corresponding largest scale raster or paper chart to navigate in this area." So I looked around for another chart of the area and found one that was also 1:40,000 but included more detail: http://www.sv-loki.com/VHVector2Photo.jpg This did not have the same "short breakwater" problem but its hard to say it was more accurate. As much as I like reviewing vector charts in the comfort of my home, or down below, I still happy to use paper as my primary reference in the cockpit. |
Raster charts now free
Being in the business of drawing stuff, it makes sense to me.
Raster charts are machine images of the "gold standard" the NOAA paper charts. Conversion to vector is a massive process that requires tracing every feature. It's too large a job for incorporating human judgement on every detail but requires too much human judgement and pattern recognition for a machine to be entrusted with the whole task. The result is an overwhelming number of places for errors to creep in. I've tried several methods of converting raster scans of my old hand drawn plans into vector CAD. It takes almost as long to clean them up as to have just traced them from scratch. Until NOAA starts drawing the charts in vector form from the get go, I don't see any way that vector charts are going to be as reliable in any probable economic scenario. Jeff wrote: Submitted for your approval: Here are two pics taken from Coastal Explorer using raster and vector charts of Vineyard Haven. The photo is superimposed, merged in about 50%. http://www.sv-loki.com/VHVectorPhoto.jpg http://www.sv-loki.com/VHRasterPhoto.jpg Note that in the Vector version, many of the features are mis-aligned. In particular, the breakwater falls short about 100 feet, which could cause an embarrassing situation in the fog. These charts were what "came" with the system, there was no special effort to setup certain charts - I simply zoomed on on one of my favorite spots and selected vector and then raster charts only. The raster chart is 1:10,000 "HARBOR" type, 4/1/06 The vector chart is also listed as "HARBOR" but is only 1:40,000. If you click on the correct info panel, it shows the following in red: "WARNING! The data in this area is incomplete. Dangers to navigation exist in this area and are not included. The mariner is advised to use the corresponding largest scale raster or paper chart to navigate in this area." So I looked around for another chart of the area and found one that was also 1:40,000 but included more detail: http://www.sv-loki.com/VHVector2Photo.jpg This did not have the same "short breakwater" problem but its hard to say it was more accurate. As much as I like reviewing vector charts in the comfort of my home, or down below, I still happy to use paper as my primary reference in the cockpit. -- Roger Long |
Raster charts now free
On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:32:51 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote: You ought to open up those chart books though. It's a lot more enjoyable anticipating and planning the next day's cruising with those nice paper graphics in your hand than looking at a LCD display. Actually I've gotten very used to doing my "next day" plan on the PC using raster charts. They look exactly like the paper charts, and the utility/convenience of electronic course plotting is not to be believed unless you've tried it. Plotting across chart boundries is a non-issue and you end up with a complete list of waypoints, courses and distances which can be saved for backup purposes. Everything gets copied to a backup PC at the lower helm, and the previous night's work gets taken up to the flybridge. Underway the PC, a "Toughbook", sits side by side with the Furuno course plotter and provides different but redundant information. Like you say, the problem with sailboats is where to put all the "stuff". Down below at the nav station is not too handy unless you've got a full time navigator in the crew, and the space top side is never enough even with a wheel pedestel. |
Raster charts now free
Comments to several msg's in this thread without attribution:
1. The greatest advantage to paper charts over either vector or raster is the zoom & pan speed. 2. Not disputing the definition of a vector, which indeed has no thickness. But, every cad system that I've used, and there are quite a few, are capable of drawing lines with thickness and the thickness does scale. 3. The NOAA ENC charts do seem to have thickness for their lines. 4. Fugawi limits the zoom scale on vector charts to 1000, whatever that number means with respect to vectors. So, I can't fully test my line thickness hypotheses. 5. Not 100% sure, more like 10%, but I'm of the impression that NOAA is creating / recreating / updating the ENC charts from satellite surveys. BF "Roger Long" wrote in message ... Being in the business of drawing stuff, it makes sense to me. Raster charts are machine images of the "gold standard" the NOAA paper charts. Conversion to vector is a massive process that requires tracing every feature. It's too large a job for incorporating human judgement on every detail but requires too much human judgement and pattern recognition for a machine to be entrusted with the whole task. The result is an overwhelming number of places for errors to creep in. I've tried several methods of converting raster scans of my old hand drawn plans into vector CAD. It takes almost as long to clean them up as to have just traced them from scratch. Until NOAA starts drawing the charts in vector form from the get go, I don't see any way that vector charts are going to be as reliable in any probable economic scenario. Jeff wrote: Submitted for your approval: Here are two pics taken from Coastal Explorer using raster and vector charts of Vineyard Haven. The photo is superimposed, merged in about 50%. http://www.sv-loki.com/VHVectorPhoto.jpg http://www.sv-loki.com/VHRasterPhoto.jpg Note that in the Vector version, many of the features are mis-aligned. In particular, the breakwater falls short about 100 feet, which could cause an embarrassing situation in the fog. These charts were what "came" with the system, there was no special effort to setup certain charts - I simply zoomed on on one of my favorite spots and selected vector and then raster charts only. The raster chart is 1:10,000 "HARBOR" type, 4/1/06 The vector chart is also listed as "HARBOR" but is only 1:40,000. If you click on the correct info panel, it shows the following in red: "WARNING! The data in this area is incomplete. Dangers to navigation exist in this area and are not included. The mariner is advised to use the corresponding largest scale raster or paper chart to navigate in this area." So I looked around for another chart of the area and found one that was also 1:40,000 but included more detail: http://www.sv-loki.com/VHVector2Photo.jpg This did not have the same "short breakwater" problem but its hard to say it was more accurate. As much as I like reviewing vector charts in the comfort of my home, or down below, I still happy to use paper as my primary reference in the cockpit. -- Roger Long |
Raster charts now free
Thats precisely the argument.
If your chart is accurate to only 60 ft., if you apply a magnification of 10X, the accuracy is STILL 60 ft. and not the (apparent) visual 6ft. that would be the 'new resolution' at an increase of magnification @ 10X. In article , Wayne.B wrote: On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 20:53:15 GMT, Rich Hampel wrote: ou can do so with graphical magnification .... but the answer is nearly ALWAYS wrong. Wrong is relative, and it depends on the chart. Most of my vector charts for US waters with stable shorelines are accurate to within 50 or 60 feet. If you are 50 feet away from your charted position, is that wrong? It depends. 99% of the time 50 feet is good enough to bring you into line with a Mark I eyeball fix, and that's good enough for me. For those areas with unstable inlets, shorelines and/or 1800s survey data, the type of chart makes very little difference. They are no better than a general guideline to get you started. |
Raster charts now free
BF wrote:
2. Not disputing the definition of a vector, which indeed has no thickness. But, every cad system that I've used, and there are quite a few, are capable of drawing lines with thickness and the thickness does scale. Certainly, you can always draw or convert to a polyline and assign thickness but this wasn't meant to be a discussion about CAD. If vector chart systems use something similar, which would increase the data storage file sizes significantly, then the OP must be talking about something different than what I demonstrated. -- Roger Long |
Raster charts now free
On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 21:19:35 -0500, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 18:58:45 GMT, "Roger Long" wrote: Actually, you're agreeing with my friend. I'm still using paper myself although with the GPS as an adjunct. Olde school, very olde. If you sail in one general area that you come to know, love and have all of the paper charts for, it's not so bad. I sailed like that on Long Island Sound and points east for many years. These days however when we are cruising thousands of miles per year, to many different areas, the idea of navigating only it with paper charts would be daunting indeed. I carry chart books for backup but most of them never get opened. After awhile, storage for all those paper charts becomes an issue! All those charts can be expensive too. I'm partly old-school too -- I usually have a paper chart in front of me as well as an electronic one running on a laptop. If I were cruising long distance, I'd be relying on electronic charts rather than buying paper ones all the time. Some may worry about relying on electronic equipment. But if an F16 needs reliable software to stay in the air, then surely we can figure out a reliable system for our silly little boats. Matt O. |
Raster charts now free
Matt O'Toole wrote:
relying on electronic equipment. But if an F16 needs reliable software to stay in the air, then surely we can figure out a reliable system for our silly little boats. Sure, but the navigation display in an F16 probably costs as much as a half dozen of our silly little boats. -- Roger Long |
Raster charts now free
On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:57:34 +0000, Roger Long wrote:
Being in the business of drawing stuff, it makes sense to me. Raster charts are machine images of the "gold standard" the NOAA paper charts. Conversion to vector is a massive process that requires tracing every feature. It's too large a job for incorporating human judgement on every detail but requires too much human judgement and pattern recognition for a machine to be entrusted with the whole task. The result is an overwhelming number of places for errors to creep in. I've tried several methods of converting raster scans of my old hand drawn plans into vector CAD. It takes almost as long to clean them up as to have just traced them from scratch. Until NOAA starts drawing the charts in vector form from the get go, I don't see any way that vector charts are going to be as reliable in any probable economic scenario. I don't know if they've started yet, but the new "gold standard" will be the raw database of soundings, GPS points, etc., from which the new vector charts will be drawn. The beauty of this is that charts can more readily be updated by simply updating the database, or just parts of it (for the stuff that actually changes). Also, more layers of information can be included, and displayed (or not) as desired. Finally, if you want a raster chart or a paper copy, it's easy enough to print one from the master vector format, though not the other way around (as you've discovered.) There was a pretty good basic article about all this in Sail magazine a couple of years ago, but unfortunately, the marine "press" has not kept up with the reporting. Government websites are always byzantine and running way behind too. The information may be there, but unless you know about it ahead of time and know where to look, you'll never find it. The government is not very good with information about their information, so to speak. Matt O. |
Raster charts now free
On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:30:17 -0500, krj wrote:
These have been available for over a year. Only problem is they are only the US, Puerto Rico, and USVI. Does anyone know what's happening with Canadian charts? Matt O. |
Raster charts now free
On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 13:22:14 +0000, Roger Long wrote:
A friend and professional mariner passed this on to me. Maybe it's old news here, I haven't been following the issue. But, just in case anyone hasn't heard: MapTech's agreement with NOAA for raster charts has expired and NOAA has now made its raster charts available for free online. This means that you can get entire raster chart collections for free from NOAA. There 1,016 BSB format charts online at NOAA's website, but the maximum that can be downloaded at one time is 100. So if you're intent on suddenly accumulating a complete chart library of the U.S., it may take you some time and effort. But if you're only looking for a few specific areas, or for updating your existing library, this is the easy way to do it. The gov't continues to update these charts electronically as necessary. Several private firms -- MapTech, Nobeltec, Richardson's, etc. -- are repackaging these raster charts for sale on CDs and DVDs. Sometimes you can get such a disk free as a sales premium, if you buy another navigational product from the same vendor. For more information and downloads: http://nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/mcd/Raster/Index.htm Awesome! I'm glad those Maptech *******s have lost their monopoly! The gov't is also making vector charts available for free on-line down-load, but the available number is less, and the vector charts are for some reason more difficult to download. The vector charts are also more difficult to use, but that's a personal opinion. To me, vector charts just don't look real; on my computer console a vector chart reminds me of a video game. Eventually the makers of plotter software will figure out better ways to display these charts. Matt O. |
Raster charts now free
On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 13:22:14 +0000, Roger Long wrote:
A friend and professional mariner passed this on to me. Maybe it's old news here, I haven't been following the issue. But, just in case anyone hasn't heard: MapTech's agreement with NOAA for raster charts has expired and NOAA has now made its raster charts available for free online. Apparently Maptech still owns the BSB file format. I'm not sure how this affects things in a practical sense, such as the gov't still having to pay license fees, or other software developers being able to compete freely. This means that you can get entire raster chart collections for free from NOAA. There 1,016 BSB format charts online at NOAA's website, but the maximum that can be downloaded at one time is 100. So if you're intent on suddenly accumulating a complete chart library of the U.S., it may take you some time and effort. But if you're only looking for a few specific areas, or for updating your existing library, this is the easy way to do it. Easy, my ass! This website is a disaster. Offhand I can think of several ways they could have done this much easier, making charts a lot easier and faster to find and download, with a lot less load on their servers. NOAA needs better web developers. I do appreciate their making this available though! Matt O. |
Raster charts now free
Matt O'Toole wrote:
But if an F16 needs reliable software to stay in the air, then surely we can figure out a reliable system for our silly little boats. There's a reason F-16's are called "Lawn Darts"...all that reliable software in the reboot process. |
Raster charts now free
On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 20:30:09 +0000, Roger Long wrote:
Matt O'Toole wrote: relying on electronic equipment. But if an F16 needs reliable software to stay in the air, then surely we can figure out a reliable system for our silly little boats. Sure, but the navigation display in an F16 probably costs as much as a half dozen of our silly little boats. This is true, but we have volume and access to commodity hardware on our side. Now that the monopoly is gone, people are free compete to build better software. Monopoly = mediocrity. Matt O. |
Raster charts now free
On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 15:24:52 -0500, Matt O'Toole
wrote: If I were cruising long distance, I'd be relying on electronic charts rather than buying paper ones all the time. Some may worry about relying on electronic equipment. But if an F16 needs reliable software to stay in the air, then surely we can figure out a reliable system for our silly little boats. Matt O. Oh man, what a bad example. You wouldn't believe how many guys they have working on that stuff, yet things like this happen (copied from another group) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A friend of mine who works for General Dynamics here in Ft. Worth wrote some of the code for the F-16, and he is always telling me about some neato-whiz-bang bug/feature they keep finding in the F-16: o Since the F-16 is a fly-by-wire aircraft, the computer keeps the pilot from doing dumb things to himself. So if the pilot jerks hard over on the joystick, the computer will instruct the flight surfaces to make a nice and easy 4 or 5 G flip. But the plane can withstand a much higher flip than that. So when they were 'flying' the F-16 in simulation over the equator, the computer got confused and instantly flipped the plane over, killing the pilot [in simulation]. And since it can fly forever upside down, it would do so until it ran out of fuel. (The remaining bugs were actually found while flying, rather than in simulation): o One of the first things the Air Force test pilots tried on an early F-16 was to tell the computer to raise the landing gear while standing still on the runway. Guess what happened? Scratch one F-16. (my friend says there is a new subroutine in the code called 'wait_on_wheels' now...) [weight?] o The computer system onboard has a weapons management system that will attempt to keep the plane flying level by dispersing weapons and empty fuel tanks in a balanced fashion. So if you ask to drop a bomb, the computer will figure out whether to drop a port or starboard bomb in order to keep the load even. One of the early problems with that was the fact that you could flip the plane over and the computer would gladly let you drop a bomb or fuel tank. It would drop, dent the wing, and then roll off. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My boss at one of the software companies I worked at always said that software is like sausage. If you think you like it, you should never see it being made. Old joke but accurate. Don't want to rehash old arguments, but even if you trust your software and the hardware totally, there's the matter of power. Regarding cruising without charts, I've never seen a chartplotter that gives me the same situational awareness boost that I get from looking at the proper chart. When I'm in home waters, the only time I get out a chart is for guests to look at. I know the area and the chartplotter is sufficient. When I'm coming into a new inlet, I want every source of information I can get. But in a pinch I'd rather do without the gps than the chart unless visibilty is an issue. __________________________________________________ __________ Glen "Wiley" Wilson usenet1 SPAMNIX at world wide wiley dot com To reply, lose the capitals and do the obvious. Take a look at cpRepeater, my NMEA data integrator, repeater, and logger at http://www.worldwidewiley.com/ |
Raster charts now free
"Matt O'Toole" wrote in message ... On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 21:19:35 -0500, Wayne.B wrote: On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 18:58:45 GMT, "Roger Long" wrote: If I were cruising long distance, I'd be relying on electronic charts rather than buying paper ones all the time. Some may worry about relying on electronic equipment. But if an F16 needs reliable software to stay in the air, then surely we can figure out a reliable system for our silly little boats. Matt O. And those F16s aren't 'at sea' alone for days / weeks / months at a time. And their software / hardware probably gets a bit more testing than the consumer stuff you and I buy. And they have a support network of radars / communications equipment / backups etc that costs more than most of our home towns. And they have access to a bottomless pit of money for maintenance personnel and parts. Other than that ... I guess you may have a point. For me ...belts AND suspenders. I maintained two computers - the main desktop under the nav table, and a notebook. The notbook is the only one to connect to the internet other than for updates. Software and charts installed on both. Two GPS systems. Failry current paper edition charts that cover all East Coast inlets and chatkits for areas being traveled. I love my electronc charting but I would not depend on it to be 100% operational 100% of the time. While my system has never crashed or hung while underway (5 years), being safe is too easy. |
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