Air Conditioners
 

On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 17:01:28 GMT, "Helimech"
wrote:

Are the air conditioners used on boats R134 or R12?


Assuming you are in the USA, and assuming it is a 115 or 230 VAC air
conditioner that runs off the AC power line or AC genset, that would
be the same R-22 used at home or in your fridge. The only difference
between a boat air conditioner and a window unit is the boat has a
water cooled condenser and costs 5 times as much. The window unit has
an air cooled condenser. Both of them use R-22, the standard
refridgerant for enclosed, all metal units without hoses.



Larry W4CSC

Isn't it becoming more practical by the day to make
Iraq's desert the new World Nuclear Waste Disposal Site?

Air Conditioners
 

On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 17:01:28 GMT, "Helimech"
wrote:

Are the air conditioners used on boats R134 or R12?

Newer ones R134....older R22. R12 is a refrigeration....

Air Conditioners
 

Well actually I meant R-12 like my 1992 Mazda uses. I think R-22 is a type
of "freon" used before R134 came around in aviation A/C systems. JC

"Famous Amos Moses®" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 17:01:28 GMT, "Helimech"
wrote:

Are the air conditioners used on boats R134 or R12?

Newer ones R134....older R22. R12 is a refrigeration....

Air Conditioners
 

Marineaire, probably the largest player in air conditioning on boats
over 30 feet, currently uses R22. I've seen R134a in refrigeration
units (the Sea Frost we took around the world was R134a), but not in
air con.

Jim Woodward
www.mvfintry.com


"Helimech" wrote in message . net...
Well actually I meant R-12 like my 1992 Mazda uses. I think R-22 is a type
of "freon" used before R134 came around in aviation A/C systems. JC

"Famous Amos Moses®" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 17:01:28 GMT, "Helimech"
wrote:

Are the air conditioners used on boats R134 or R12?

Newer ones R134....older R22. R12 is a refrigeration....

Air Conditioners
 

Jim,

R134A is currently used for the Air Conditioning in most vehicles sold in
the USA after 1996. I have a 1998 GMC Suburban, a 1998 Honda Accord, and
a 1999 Freightliner which all have R134A systems.

OTOH, my home ACs are Carriers, and they are R22 systems. Carrier also makes
a "Puron" system which doesn't use R22.

Later,

Don W.

Jim Woodward wrote:

Marineaire, probably the largest player in air conditioning on boats
over 30 feet, currently uses R22. I've seen R134a in refrigeration
units (the Sea Frost we took around the world was R134a), but not in
air con.

Jim Woodward
www.mvfintry.com

Air Conditioners
 

Thanks, Don. I should have said "in boats", but the fact is, I didn't
have a clue what's used in cars.


Jim Woodward
www.mvfintry.com

"Don W." wrote in message ...
Jim,

R134A is currently used for the Air Conditioning in most vehicles sold in
the USA after 1996. I have a 1998 GMC Suburban, a 1998 Honda Accord, and
a 1999 Freightliner which all have R134A systems.

OTOH, my home ACs are Carriers, and they are R22 systems. Carrier also makes
a "Puron" system which doesn't use R22.

Later,

Don W.

Jim Woodward wrote:

Marineaire, probably the largest player in air conditioning on boats
over 30 feet, currently uses R22. I've seen R134a in refrigeration
units (the Sea Frost we took around the world was R134a), but not in
air con.

Jim Woodward
www.mvfintry.com

Air Conditioners
 

On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 17:24:15 -0500, "Rick & Linda Bernard"
wrote:

What difference does it make what refrigerant your boat A/C uses? (I would
bet R22)

It has to do with the range of characteristic of a given
refrigerant....how much pressure it takes to condense at what
temps...what is the temp of evaporation at what pressure....how much
heat change during change of phases from liquid to gas and
back...blah, blah, blah.

--
"That's not a lie, it's a terminological inexactitude. Also, a tactical misrepresentation."
-- Alexander Haig

Air Conditioners
 

First off you can't buy R-12 or R-22 without a license. I would think that
if you had a license you would have test equipment and would be smart enough
to read the gauges to realize the system is R-12 or R-22. Double Duh...


"Keith" wrote in message
...
Duh. Put R-12 in a system that uses R-22 and watch it blow up!

--


Keith
__
There's a fine line between fishing and standing on the shore like an
idiot.
"Rick & Linda Bernard" wrote in message
...
What difference does it make what refrigerant your boat A/C uses? (I
would
bet R22)


"Jim Woodward" wrote in message
om...
Thanks, Don. I should have said "in boats", but the fact is, I didn't
have a clue what's used in cars.


Jim Woodward
www.mvfintry.com

"Don W." wrote in message
...
Jim,

R134A is currently used for the Air Conditioning in most vehicles
sold
in
the USA after 1996. I have a 1998 GMC Suburban, a 1998 Honda
Accord,
and
a 1999 Freightliner which all have R134A systems.

OTOH, my home ACs are Carriers, and they are R22 systems. Carrier
also
makes
a "Puron" system which doesn't use R22.

Later,

Don W.

Jim Woodward wrote:

Marineaire, probably the largest player in air conditioning on
boats
over 30 feet, currently uses R22. I've seen R134a in
refrigeration
units (the Sea Frost we took around the world was R134a), but not
in
air con.

Jim Woodward
www.mvfintry.com

Air Conditioners
 

Subject: Air Conditioners
From: "Rick & Linda Bernard" am

What difference does it make what refrigerant your boat A/C uses? (I would
bet R22)


None of course. So go ahead and add what ever you have handy and let us know
how it works out.

Capt. Bill

Air Conditioners
 

Subject: Air Conditioners
From: "Rick & Linda Bernard"

First off you can't buy R-12 or R-22 without a license. I would think that
if you had a license you would have test equipment and would be smart enough
to read the gauges to realize the system is R-12 or R-22. Double Duh...


Triple duh, it's not that hard to get R-12 or R-22 wthout a license. And
pressure gauges in and off themselves will not tell you what type of gas you
have in your system.

Capt. Bill

Air Conditioners
 

You can buy all the R12 you want in Mex for $8.00 a pound can in the
Autozone.


On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:32:38 -0500, "Rick & Linda Bernard"
wrote:

First off you can't buy R-12 or R-22 without a license. I would think that
if you had a license you would have test equipment and would be smart enough
to read the gauges to realize the system is R-12 or R-22. Double Duh...


"Keith" wrote in message
...
Duh. Put R-12 in a system that uses R-22 and watch it blow up!

--


Keith
__
There's a fine line between fishing and standing on the shore like an
idiot.
"Rick & Linda Bernard" wrote in message
...
What difference does it make what refrigerant your boat A/C uses? (I
would
bet R22)


"Jim Woodward" wrote in message
om...
Thanks, Don. I should have said "in boats", but the fact is, I didn't
have a clue what's used in cars.


Jim Woodward
www.mvfintry.com

"Don W." wrote in message
...
Jim,

R134A is currently used for the Air Conditioning in most vehicles
sold
in
the USA after 1996. I have a 1998 GMC Suburban, a 1998 Honda
Accord,
and
a 1999 Freightliner which all have R134A systems.

OTOH, my home ACs are Carriers, and they are R22 systems. Carrier
also
makes
a "Puron" system which doesn't use R22.

Later,

Don W.

Jim Woodward wrote:

Marineaire, probably the largest player in air conditioning on
boats
over 30 feet, currently uses R22. I've seen R134a in
refrigeration
units (the Sea Frost we took around the world was R134a), but not
in
air con.

Jim Woodward
www.mvfintry.com

Air Conditioners
 

Subject: Air Conditioners
From: (LaBomba182)
Date: 9/12/03 2:46 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Subject: Air Conditioners
From: "Rick & Linda Bernard"

First off you can't buy R-12 or R-22 without a license. I would think that
if you had a license you would have test equipment and would be smart enough
to read the gauges to realize the system is R-12 or R-22. Double Duh...


Triple duh, it's not that hard to get R-12 or R-22 wthout a license. And
pressure gauges in and off themselves will not tell you what type of gas you
have in your system.

Capt. Bill

At room temp., (i.e., haven't been running it for an hour), the pressure will
be the vapor pressure of the stuff at that temp. (IF it is not so low on fluid
that there is no fluid at all left). You have to look up somewhere what the
vapor pressure of each is. (I used to know, but that was a long time ago.)

I think that the stuff for cars is the one with the least pressure for a given
temp since it is so damn hot under the hood of a car.

I have gauges and an electronic leak detector, and I would fix my freezer, but
.. . . how do people get freon today without a licence?

(Not that 'I' would do it if it were illegal. Just wondering about how 'other'
people do it.)

Earl

Air Conditioners
 

GASNER wrote:

At room temp., (i.e., haven't been running it for an hour), the pressure will
be the vapor pressure of the stuff at that temp. (IF it is not so low on fluid
that there is no fluid at all left). You have to look up somewhere what the
vapor pressure of each is. (I used to know, but that was a long time ago.)

That is correct. If you have a thermometer you can also connect your gages and
measure the temperature at the evaporator and the condensor with the system
running. Most gages have temperature indicators for different refrigerants such
that you can read the low side and high side temperatures directly. Believe me,
its is hard to mistake R12 for R22, because the pressures are much different.

I think that the stuff for cars is the one with the least pressure for a given
temp since it is so damn hot under the hood of a car.

Actually, automobiles used to use R12 which as you stated has a lower vapor
pressure than R22. For example, at 100 degrees F R12 is at ~115 PSI, while R22
is at ~200 PSI. R502 at 100F would be ~215 PSI.

Since 1996 autos sold in the USA use R134A. R134A at 100F is ~124 PSI which is
higher than R12, but much lower than R22 or R502.

I have gauges and an electronic leak detector, and I would fix my freezer, but
. . . how do people get freon today without a licence?

(Not that 'I' would do it if it were illegal. Just wondering about how 'other'
people do it.)

Earl

Well, you can buy R134A without a license at auto parts stores. There is a non-controlled
R22 replacement marketed as (I think) Puron. According to my home AC man there is also now
a non-controlled drop-in replacement for R12, but I don't know what it is called.

What is in your freezer?

Don W.

Air Conditioners
 

Subject: Air Conditioners
From: Don W
Date: 9/16/03 11:25 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

GASNER wrote:

At room temp., (i.e., haven't been running it for an hour), the pressure
will
be the vapor pressure of the stuff at that temp. (IF it is not so low on
fluid
that there is no fluid at all left). You have to look up somewhere what the
vapor pressure of each is. (I used to know, but that was a long time ago.)

That is correct. If you have a thermometer you can also connect your gages
and
measure the temperature at the evaporator and the condensor with the system
running. Most gages have temperature indicators for different refrigerants
such
that you can read the low side and high side temperatures directly. Believe
me,
its is hard to mistake R12 for R22, because the pressures are much different.

I think that the stuff for cars is the one with the least pressure for a
given
temp since it is so damn hot under the hood of a car.

Actually, automobiles used to use R12 which as you stated has a lower vapor
pressure than R22. For example, at 100 degrees F R12 is at ~115 PSI, while
R22
is at ~200 PSI. R502 at 100F would be ~215 PSI.

Since 1996 autos sold in the USA use R134A. R134A at 100F is ~124 PSI which
is
higher than R12, but much lower than R22 or R502.

I have gauges and an electronic leak detector, and I would fix my freezer,
but
. . . how do people get freon today without a licence?

(Not that 'I' would do it if it were illegal. Just wondering about how
'other'
people do it.)

Earl

Well, you can buy R134A without a license at auto parts stores. There is a
non-controlled
R22 replacement marketed as (I think) Puron. According to my home AC man
there is also now
a non-controlled drop-in replacement for R12, but I don't know what it is
called.

What is in your freezer?

Don W.

Wow. I have to drop by an automotive store and check.

My freezer is just an ordinary home food freezer, ca 10/15 years old. Slow
leak. (Starts to run and compress, then cuts out. Probably a low pressure
safety.) If I could get a couple of cheater connectors I could gauge it. and
put in some more freon. As is I probably can find the leak with my electronic
leak detector. Perhaps seal it with epoxy, perhaps braze it.

Dirty little secret is that it should run with just adding some of the 'wrong
kind' of freon. Perhaps not as efficient.

Earl

Air Conditioners
 

Earl,

FYI, you need an EPA Section 609 certification to purchase small
quantities of R-12. You can get certified (like I did) at:

http://www.imaca.org/training.htm

The cost is $15.00, and if you already understand A/C (like me)
then the whole thing takes about and hour, tops. They were very
good to deal with as well.

For R-22, you need an EPA Section 608 certification. You can get
that, online, at:

http://www.escoinst.com/Certification.htm

Have no experience with these folks, though, so I'm NOT
recommending them, just passing on the info. Cheers,

Keith Hughes

GASNER wrote:
Subject: Air Conditioners
From: Don W
Date: 9/16/03 11:25 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

GASNER wrote:


At room temp., (i.e., haven't been running it for an hour), the pressure

will

be the vapor pressure of the stuff at that temp. (IF it is not so low on

fluid

that there is no fluid at all left). You have to look up somewhere what the
vapor pressure of each is. (I used to know, but that was a long time ago.)

That is correct. If you have a thermometer you can also connect your gages
and
measure the temperature at the evaporator and the condensor with the system
running. Most gages have temperature indicators for different refrigerants
such
that you can read the low side and high side temperatures directly. Believe
me,
its is hard to mistake R12 for R22, because the pressures are much different.

I think that the stuff for cars is the one with the least pressure for a

given

temp since it is so damn hot under the hood of a car.

Actually, automobiles used to use R12 which as you stated has a lower vapor
pressure than R22. For example, at 100 degrees F R12 is at ~115 PSI, while
R22
is at ~200 PSI. R502 at 100F would be ~215 PSI.

Since 1996 autos sold in the USA use R134A. R134A at 100F is ~124 PSI which
is
higher than R12, but much lower than R22 or R502.


I have gauges and an electronic leak detector, and I would fix my freezer,

but

. . . how do people get freon today without a licence?

(Not that 'I' would do it if it were illegal. Just wondering about how

'other'

people do it.)

Earl

Well, you can buy R134A without a license at auto parts stores. There is a
non-controlled
R22 replacement marketed as (I think) Puron. According to my home AC man
there is also now
a non-controlled drop-in replacement for R12, but I don't know what it is
called.

What is in your freezer?

Don W.


Wow. I have to drop by an automotive store and check.

My freezer is just an ordinary home food freezer, ca 10/15 years old. Slow
leak. (Starts to run and compress, then cuts out. Probably a low pressure
safety.) If I could get a couple of cheater connectors I could gauge it. and
put in some more freon. As is I probably can find the leak with my electronic
leak detector. Perhaps seal it with epoxy, perhaps braze it.

Dirty little secret is that it should run with just adding some of the 'wrong
kind' of freon. Perhaps not as efficient.

Earl

Air Conditioners
 

Subject: Air Conditioners
From: Nancy Eilers-Hughes
Date: 9/24/03 12:35 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Earl,

FYI, you need an EPA Section 609 certification to purchase small
quantities of R-12. You can get certified (like I did) at:

http://www.imaca.org/training.htm

The cost is $15.00, and if you already understand A/C (like me)
then the whole thing takes about and hour, tops. They were very
good to deal with as well.

Wow. Only $15.00. I understand A/C, own a set of gauges, and own an electronic
leak detector. New house air-conditioner needed a refill every spring as the
tech from the guarantee only had a flame/color leak detector and could not find
the small leak. Guarantee ran out, (they said) so rather than fight city hall I
bought a good electronic leak detector, found the leak, brazed in some new
connectors, and refilled the system. End of 'springtime problem'.

Earl


For R-22, you need an EPA Section 608 certification. You can get
that, online, at:

http://www.escoinst.com/Certification.htm

Have no experience with these folks, though, so I'm NOT
recommending them, just passing on the info. Cheers,

Keith Hughes

GASNER wrote:
Subject: Air Conditioners
From: Don W
Date: 9/16/03 11:25 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

GASNER wrote:


At room temp., (i.e., haven't been running it for an hour), the pressure

will

be the vapor pressure of the stuff at that temp. (IF it is not so low on

fluid

that there is no fluid at all left). You have to look up somewhere what
the
vapor pressure of each is. (I used to know, but that was a long time ago.)

That is correct. If you have a thermometer you can also connect your gages
and
measure the temperature at the evaporator and the condensor with the system
running. Most gages have temperature indicators for different refrigerants
such
that you can read the low side and high side temperatures directly.
Believe
me,
its is hard to mistake R12 for R22, because the pressures are much
different.

I think that the stuff for cars is the one with the least pressure for a

given

temp since it is so damn hot under the hood of a car.

Actually, automobiles used to use R12 which as you stated has a lower vapor
pressure than R22. For example, at 100 degrees F R12 is at ~115 PSI, while
R22
is at ~200 PSI. R502 at 100F would be ~215 PSI.

Since 1996 autos sold in the USA use R134A. R134A at 100F is ~124 PSI
which
is
higher than R12, but much lower than R22 or R502.


I have gauges and an electronic leak detector, and I would fix my freezer,

but

. . . how do people get freon today without a licence?

(Not that 'I' would do it if it were illegal. Just wondering about how

'other'

people do it.)

Earl

Well, you can buy R134A without a license at auto parts stores. There is a
non-controlled
R22 replacement marketed as (I think) Puron. According to my home AC man
there is also now
a non-controlled drop-in replacement for R12, but I don't know what it is
called.

What is in your freezer?

Don W.


Wow. I have to drop by an automotive store and check.

My freezer is just an ordinary home food freezer, ca 10/15 years old. Slow
leak. (Starts to run and compress, then cuts out. Probably a low pressure
safety.) If I could get a couple of cheater connectors I could gauge it.
and
put in some more freon. As is I probably can find the leak with my
electronic
leak detector. Perhaps seal it with epoxy, perhaps braze it.

Dirty little secret is that it should run with just adding some of the
'wrong
kind' of freon. Perhaps not as efficient.

Earl