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Wind-vane self steering .. questions, thoughts, ..
Yesterday; closing up the boat. Talking over the season with the other
victims { oops, I mean sailors of sailboats } .. Anyway, after we got done talking about the rain in May and June ; the heat of July and August; the ripoff marina's we visited; the beautiful anchorages we found, the fog, the wind, ............. we started on the crew. Or, lack there of. Then we all walked over to the boat/sailboat with the wind-vane. "Sure does look cool", "kinda says I am going solo and my windvane is steering". said one of the boat owners. Sailboats with wind-vanes look like boats that have been somewhere. They have that something about them that sets them apart from the sailboats that go out for a day sail. But what about the wind-vane? Should I get one? Would it be practical for cruising up and down the coast of New England? Huum. Sure would be better than the blue bungy-cord self steering device I use now. We got to talking ... "I should get one of these" said the red hulled sailor. "But what about the cost" said the blue hulled sailor. "Probably be able to find one cheap on ebay" said the 26' boat owner as "she" kept working away. "Ya think so"? said I. "Sure, look at all the ya-hoos around here who talk about going to the Caribbean or somewhere else and never get further than Cape Ann" she said. "Why don't you look on the net, see what you can find, get an idea of price, and then next time your here we can talk wind-vanes" the 26' owner said. So .. what do you all think? Any wind-vane owners out there? Do you use yours much? Are they a good addition? What about second hand? What brand is the best? Do they need to be sized for the boat? Will they work with a tillar? Lots and lots of questions. All answers will be printed, and passed on to the owners of a red boat, blue boat, 26' boat, two guys looking for a boat, one motor boat, ........................................... Gotta have a wind-vane if your going to look like the boat that is going to Antigua. Even if the red boat owner tells me the boat going to Antigua has been going to Antigua for ten years! |
Wind-vane self steering .. questions, thoughts, ..
In iU5Wg.1711$ms1.851@trndny05 "Benning Wentworth" writes:
Yesterday; closing up the boat. Talking over the season with the other victims { oops, I mean sailors of sailboats } .. Anyway, after we got done talking about the rain in May and June ; the heat of July and August; the ripoff marina's we visited; the beautiful anchorages we found, the fog, the wind, ............. we started on the crew. Or, lack there of. Then we all walked over to the boat/sailboat with the wind-vane. "Sure does look cool", "kinda says I am going solo and my windvane is steering". said one of the boat owners. Sailboats with wind-vanes look like boats that have been somewhere. They have that something about them that sets them apart from the sailboats that go out for a day sail. But what about the wind-vane? Should I get one? Would it be practical for cruising up and down the coast of New England? Huum. Sure would be better than the blue bungy-cord self steering device I use now. We got to talking ... "I should get one of these" said the red hulled sailor. "But what about the cost" said the blue hulled sailor. "Probably be able to find one cheap on ebay" said the 26' boat owner as "she" kept working away. "Ya think so"? said I. "Sure, look at all the ya-hoos around here who talk about going to the Caribbean or somewhere else and never get further than Cape Ann" she said. "Why don't you look on the net, see what you can find, get an idea of price, and then next time your here we can talk wind-vanes" the 26' owner said. So .. what do you all think? Any wind-vane owners out there? Do you use yours much? Are they a good addition? What about second hand? What brand is the best? Do they need to be sized for the boat? Will they work with a tillar? Lots and lots of questions. All answers will be printed, and passed on to the owners of a red boat, blue boat, 26' boat, two guys looking for a boat, one motor boat, .......................................... Gotta have a wind-vane if your going to look like the boat that is going to Antigua. Even if the red boat owner tells me the boat going to Antigua has been going to Antigua for ten years! I bought a Windpilot windvane some years ago. I made some marketing research, visited boat shows, discussed with the makers and wendors, actually installed one in a friend's boat and sailed a couple of days with him after it was installed. I bought my several years after this experience. So why did it take so long to make up my mind. First reason was perhaps that the shock cord did a decent job steering the boat on the beat and the electronic tiller pilot was reasonable in anything but heavy weather and secondly a good windvane would cost about ten low end tiller pilots. So what was different after I got the windvane? The first thing you notice, is that it is working SILENT. I have used for years a slogan: The engineers can do anything, but nothing silent. My tillepilot Autohelm ST4000 is not the really noicy type, but no squacing anymore. The second difference was apparent when the wind picked up and there was some confused seas. When the conditions became demanding, the windvane was more and more superior to the tillerpilot. I promise you, I know how to use the tillerpilot, this is my sixth and I have had ond vor some 20 years, the last two ones of the same make have been with me for some 10 years, so I amu sure I have learned most of the tricks of how to use one. I am sailing in the Baltic, where we most of the time cruising is day sailing from port to port from an island to another, with anchoring from the rear with the pow tied to some pines or rocks on the shore. Some trips go overnight, but we do cross the Baltic in one or two nights, but can stay out for perhaps four days. So this is not what you really call blue water cruising, where you stay out for a couple of weeks. My vife was a bit hesitant for us to keeps a watch alone because she did not have all that confidence in the autopilot. She knew how to use it, but now she does not have any objections for even multiple nights crossings as she is confident the windvane will steer the boat whatever the weather is throwing at us. We have the tillerpilot, it is used when we are leawing the harbour and coming and and while motoring, but when we get underway, the windvane takes over. Remember it is silent and it does not use any electricity. Moderate heavy reach and run caused battery drain of some 4 to 6 amperes. With the windwane our Aerogen 4 is producing more electricity than the navigation instrumentrs and cooler and lights consume. If we are sailing in some narrow channels, there are many of them in the Finnish and Swedish archipelago, where the islands and high trees are affecting the wind, the windvane is not a good servant, as you have to adjust it frequently, but as soon as there is some space around you, it is doing its job properly. After the first season with the windvane, my vife asked: Why did you not by this earlier, what took you so long to make up your mind. You can get plenty of information of all makes of windvanes: http://www.windpilot.com/ You can download Peter Foerthmann's book Selfsteering under Sail. I recommend that for you to read, even if you thing you would buy another make. If you buy a windvane, buy a good one, it will last practically for ever. The good ones will do their job day in day out and becayse this is a safety factor as well do not go for the good one. - Lauri Tarkkonen |
Wind-vane self steering .. questions, thoughts, ..
Lauri ,, I looked up the book ... what a great find! The whole book is
FREE! Good reading ......................... I still have much more to learn. But ??? Maybe ???? ========== "Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message ... In iU5Wg.1711$ms1.851@trndny05 "Benning Wentworth" writes: Yesterday; closing up the boat. Talking over the season with the other victims { oops, I mean sailors of sailboats } .. Anyway, after we got done talking about the rain in May and June ; the heat of July and August; the ripoff marina's we visited; the beautiful anchorages we found, the fog, the wind, ............. we started on the crew. Or, lack there of. Then we all walked over to the boat/sailboat with the wind-vane. "Sure does look cool", "kinda says I am going solo and my windvane is steering". said one of the boat owners. Sailboats with wind-vanes look like boats that have been somewhere. They have that something about them that sets them apart from the sailboats that go out for a day sail. But what about the wind-vane? Should I get one? Would it be practical for cruising up and down the coast of New England? Huum. Sure would be better than the blue bungy-cord self steering device I use now. We got to talking ... "I should get one of these" said the red hulled sailor. "But what about the cost" said the blue hulled sailor. "Probably be able to find one cheap on ebay" said the 26' boat owner as "she" kept working away. "Ya think so"? said I. "Sure, look at all the ya-hoos around here who talk about going to the Caribbean or somewhere else and never get further than Cape Ann" she said. "Why don't you look on the net, see what you can find, get an idea of price, and then next time your here we can talk wind-vanes" the 26' owner said. So .. what do you all think? Any wind-vane owners out there? Do you use yours much? Are they a good addition? What about second hand? What brand is the best? Do they need to be sized for the boat? Will they work with a tillar? Lots and lots of questions. All answers will be printed, and passed on to the owners of a red boat, blue boat, 26' boat, two guys looking for a boat, one motor boat, .......................................... Gotta have a wind-vane if your going to look like the boat that is going to Antigua. Even if the red boat owner tells me the boat going to Antigua has been going to Antigua for ten years! I bought a Windpilot windvane some years ago. I made some marketing research, visited boat shows, discussed with the makers and wendors, actually installed one in a friend's boat and sailed a couple of days with him after it was installed. I bought my several years after this experience. So why did it take so long to make up my mind. First reason was perhaps that the shock cord did a decent job steering the boat on the beat and the electronic tiller pilot was reasonable in anything but heavy weather and secondly a good windvane would cost about ten low end tiller pilots. So what was different after I got the windvane? The first thing you notice, is that it is working SILENT. I have used for years a slogan: The engineers can do anything, but nothing silent. My tillepilot Autohelm ST4000 is not the really noicy type, but no squacing anymore. The second difference was apparent when the wind picked up and there was some confused seas. When the conditions became demanding, the windvane was more and more superior to the tillerpilot. I promise you, I know how to use the tillerpilot, this is my sixth and I have had ond vor some 20 years, the last two ones of the same make have been with me for some 10 years, so I amu sure I have learned most of the tricks of how to use one. I am sailing in the Baltic, where we most of the time cruising is day sailing from port to port from an island to another, with anchoring from the rear with the pow tied to some pines or rocks on the shore. Some trips go overnight, but we do cross the Baltic in one or two nights, but can stay out for perhaps four days. So this is not what you really call blue water cruising, where you stay out for a couple of weeks. My vife was a bit hesitant for us to keeps a watch alone because she did not have all that confidence in the autopilot. She knew how to use it, but now she does not have any objections for even multiple nights crossings as she is confident the windvane will steer the boat whatever the weather is throwing at us. We have the tillerpilot, it is used when we are leawing the harbour and coming and and while motoring, but when we get underway, the windvane takes over. Remember it is silent and it does not use any electricity. Moderate heavy reach and run caused battery drain of some 4 to 6 amperes. With the windwane our Aerogen 4 is producing more electricity than the navigation instrumentrs and cooler and lights consume. If we are sailing in some narrow channels, there are many of them in the Finnish and Swedish archipelago, where the islands and high trees are affecting the wind, the windvane is not a good servant, as you have to adjust it frequently, but as soon as there is some space around you, it is doing its job properly. After the first season with the windvane, my vife asked: Why did you not by this earlier, what took you so long to make up your mind. You can get plenty of information of all makes of windvanes: http://www.windpilot.com/ You can download Peter Foerthmann's book Selfsteering under Sail. I recommend that for you to read, even if you thing you would buy another make. If you buy a windvane, buy a good one, it will last practically for ever. The good ones will do their job day in day out and becayse this is a safety factor as well do not go for the good one. - Lauri Tarkkonen |
Wind-vane self steering .. questions, thoughts, ..
Benning,
Mine is 25 years old, home made by the guy that finished the inside of the boat. It is the "obsolete" axillary rudder with trim tab type. I can only vouch for it. But IT is wonderful. My advice? Get one. You have to figure out the type. I'll be interested in other peoples comments as someday mine will break and I'll have to replace it. But replace it I will. FWIW, the axillary rudder gives you a spare rudder to steer by, should anything happen to your main. It strikes me the single disadvantage of the aux rudder is that it makes backing difficult. Howard Benning Wentworth wrote: Yesterday; closing up the boat. Talking over the season with the other victims { oops, I mean sailors of sailboats } .. Anyway, after we got done talking about the rain in May and June ; the heat of July and August; the ripoff marina's we visited; the beautiful anchorages we found, the fog, the wind, ............. we started on the crew. Or, lack there of. Then we all walked over to the boat/sailboat with the wind-vane. "Sure does look cool", "kinda says I am going solo and my windvane is steering". said one of the boat owners. Sailboats with wind-vanes look like boats that have been somewhere. They have that something about them that sets them apart from the sailboats that go out for a day sail. But what about the wind-vane? Should I get one? Would it be practical for cruising up and down the coast of New England? Huum. Sure would be better than the blue bungy-cord self steering device I use now. We got to talking ... "I should get one of these" said the red hulled sailor. "But what about the cost" said the blue hulled sailor. "Probably be able to find one cheap on ebay" said the 26' boat owner as "she" kept working away. "Ya think so"? said I. "Sure, look at all the ya-hoos around here who talk about going to the Caribbean or somewhere else and never get further than Cape Ann" she said. "Why don't you look on the net, see what you can find, get an idea of price, and then next time your here we can talk wind-vanes" the 26' owner said. So .. what do you all think? Any wind-vane owners out there? Do you use yours much? Are they a good addition? What about second hand? What brand is the best? Do they need to be sized for the boat? Will they work with a tillar? Lots and lots of questions. All answers will be printed, and passed on to the owners of a red boat, blue boat, 26' boat, two guys looking for a boat, one motor boat, .......................................... Gotta have a wind-vane if your going to look like the boat that is going to Antigua. Even if the red boat owner tells me the boat going to Antigua has been going to Antigua for ten years! |
Wind-vane self steering .. questions, thoughts, ..
I've used wind vanes on passages and agree that they are very good
things. I've even considered putting one on my catamaran which has carried me many thousands of off shore miles. However, I believe that the costs associated with vanes are too high compared to the benefits on my boat. Each case will be different, but here is my thinking on this for my boat: I. Benefits: 1) wind/water powered, works even if engine and electrical fail. 2) simple can be fixed in remote locals. 3) power savings allow for greater use of electronic nav aids like RADAR. 4) silent. 5) amusing. 6) looks salty. II. Costs: 1) very expensive compared to electronic self steering unless home built. 2) Adds a lot of weight to the end of the boat reducing available payload, increasing ptiching moment and increasing drag. Speed and seakeeping costs are larger on total and percantage basis as boats get lighter and faster. 3) Add wind and water drag. Drag increases greatly as boat velocity increases so fast boats pay more than slow ones here, too. 4) Does not function in calms. 5) Functions poorly or even dangerously when boat speed approaches wind speed. Again, a problem only for fast boats. 6) Exposed to elements, part failures, eg oars and vanes, common. Fast boats will put more strain on the gear and should expect greater failure rates. 7) Increased dock fees based on LOA. 8) Complicates davit arrangements 9) May make boat more difficult to manuver esp. in reverse. 10) Setting and retrieving oar or rudder can be difficult. 11) Does not steer a compass course, makes DR much more diffiuclt. 12) Look industrial. -- Tom. |
Wind-vane self steering .. questions, thoughts, ..
In .com " writes:
I've used wind vanes on passages and agree that they are very good things. I've even considered putting one on my catamaran which has carried me many thousands of off shore miles. However, I believe that the costs associated with vanes are too high compared to the benefits on my boat. Each case will be different, but here is my thinking on this for my boat: Because it is different for different boats, it is perhaps necessary to bring some other angles into this. I. Benefits: 1) wind/water powered, works even if engine and electrical fail. If you have a "servo-pendulum" windvane, where the boat speed is giving the mechanical power to steer the boat is is superior to cheap tillerpilots, as the boat speed will determine the speed and power of rudder action, as the cheap tillerpilots have electric motor of single speed. 2) simple can be fixed in remote locals. Tolerates better water than electronic gears, failure rates lover. Thus more reliable. 3) power savings allow for greater use of electronic nav aids like RADAR. 4) silent. 5) amusing. 6) looks salty. II. Costs: 1) very expensive compared to electronic self steering unless home built. Expensive compared to cheap electronics, but one should not compare the price of a state of the art windvane to the cheapest electronic pilots. 2) Adds a lot of weight to the end of the boat reducing available payload, increasing ptiching moment and increasing drag. Speed and seakeeping costs are larger on total and percantage basis as boats get lighter and faster. Windpilot Pacific (boats from 30 to 65 feet) weights 44 lbs (20 kg), I would not call this a lot. I am positive that in a 40 foor boat you can not see or feel the difference in pitching. 3) Add wind and water drag. Drag increases greatly as boat velocity increases so fast boats pay more than slow ones here, too. Applies only for multihulls and ULDB boats, not on the majority of cruising boats. 4) Does not function in calms. I have not seen a sailing boat moving in calm. If you are motoring in calm you can use the tiller pilot. If there is enough wind to move the boat for some 3 knots, there is enough wind to steer with the Windpilot. 5) Functions poorly or even dangerously when boat speed approaches wind speed. Again, a problem only for fast boats. Racing multihuls and ULDB:s, not ordinary cruising boats. 6) Exposed to elements, part failures, eg oars and vanes, common. Is not true for the good ones. I would dare to make a bet that a proper windvane, say Windpilot, will outlast almost any electronic pilot. Fast boats will put more strain on the gear and should expect greater failure rates. The same applies to electronic gear. 7) Increased dock fees based on LOA. Not true for Windpilot Pacific. When you turn the oar up, it will be inside the stern level. I would not recommed the windvanes with steering rudders, as they are more vulnerable in the stern. Some makes are taking much more space behind the boat, avoid them (Monitor, Aries etc.) 8) Complicates davit arrangements Some of the complications can be avoided by crafty plannind. 9) May make boat more difficult to manuver esp. in reverse. Do not buy one with own steering rudder, because it is a nuisance when manouvering. 10) Setting and retrieving oar or rudder can be difficult. Depends on the make. Why to buy one where this is true. In Windpilot Pacific it is very easy, you just let it fall into the sea and you pull it up by a piece of string. 11) Does not steer a compass course, makes DR much more diffiuclt. I do not know why you should steer a sailboat with a windvane to a compas course, but if you really need to do it, you can take the smallest and cheapest autopilot, and let it steer you servo-pendulum windvane instead of the wind. By the way, I do not see the point of this, as the sailing boat does not sail by itself to a compas course accurate enough for DR. 12) Look industrial. You may keep your opinion on the looks. - Lauri Tarkkonen -- Tom. |
Wind-vane self steering .. questions, thoughts, ..
You're partial to Windpilot. Any interest (moneywise) in that company? How
would you mount a windpilot when there is an outboard in the middle of the stern? Gordon "Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message ... In .com " writes: I've used wind vanes on passages and agree that they are very good things. I've even considered putting one on my catamaran which has carried me many thousands of off shore miles. However, I believe that the costs associated with vanes are too high compared to the benefits on my boat. Each case will be different, but here is my thinking on this for my boat: Because it is different for different boats, it is perhaps necessary to bring some other angles into this. I. Benefits: 1) wind/water powered, works even if engine and electrical fail. If you have a "servo-pendulum" windvane, where the boat speed is giving the mechanical power to steer the boat is is superior to cheap tillerpilots, as the boat speed will determine the speed and power of rudder action, as the cheap tillerpilots have electric motor of single speed. 2) simple can be fixed in remote locals. Tolerates better water than electronic gears, failure rates lover. Thus more reliable. 3) power savings allow for greater use of electronic nav aids like RADAR. 4) silent. 5) amusing. 6) looks salty. II. Costs: 1) very expensive compared to electronic self steering unless home built. Expensive compared to cheap electronics, but one should not compare the price of a state of the art windvane to the cheapest electronic pilots. 2) Adds a lot of weight to the end of the boat reducing available payload, increasing ptiching moment and increasing drag. Speed and seakeeping costs are larger on total and percantage basis as boats get lighter and faster. Windpilot Pacific (boats from 30 to 65 feet) weights 44 lbs (20 kg), I would not call this a lot. I am positive that in a 40 foor boat you can not see or feel the difference in pitching. 3) Add wind and water drag. Drag increases greatly as boat velocity increases so fast boats pay more than slow ones here, too. Applies only for multihulls and ULDB boats, not on the majority of cruising boats. 4) Does not function in calms. I have not seen a sailing boat moving in calm. If you are motoring in calm you can use the tiller pilot. If there is enough wind to move the boat for some 3 knots, there is enough wind to steer with the Windpilot. 5) Functions poorly or even dangerously when boat speed approaches wind speed. Again, a problem only for fast boats. Racing multihuls and ULDB:s, not ordinary cruising boats. 6) Exposed to elements, part failures, eg oars and vanes, common. Is not true for the good ones. I would dare to make a bet that a proper windvane, say Windpilot, will outlast almost any electronic pilot. Fast boats will put more strain on the gear and should expect greater failure rates. The same applies to electronic gear. 7) Increased dock fees based on LOA. Not true for Windpilot Pacific. When you turn the oar up, it will be inside the stern level. I would not recommed the windvanes with steering rudders, as they are more vulnerable in the stern. Some makes are taking much more space behind the boat, avoid them (Monitor, Aries etc.) 8) Complicates davit arrangements Some of the complications can be avoided by crafty plannind. 9) May make boat more difficult to manuver esp. in reverse. Do not buy one with own steering rudder, because it is a nuisance when manouvering. 10) Setting and retrieving oar or rudder can be difficult. Depends on the make. Why to buy one where this is true. In Windpilot Pacific it is very easy, you just let it fall into the sea and you pull it up by a piece of string. 11) Does not steer a compass course, makes DR much more diffiuclt. I do not know why you should steer a sailboat with a windvane to a compas course, but if you really need to do it, you can take the smallest and cheapest autopilot, and let it steer you servo-pendulum windvane instead of the wind. By the way, I do not see the point of this, as the sailing boat does not sail by itself to a compas course accurate enough for DR. 12) Look industrial. You may keep your opinion on the looks. - Lauri Tarkkonen -- Tom. |
Wind-vane self steering .. questions, thoughts, ..
On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 17:06:46 -0700, "Gordon"
wrote: How would you mount a windpilot when there is an outboard in the middle of the stern? Not too many off shore cruising boats have that issue. Use a tiller pilot instead. |
Wind-vane self steering .. questions, thoughts, ..
Lauri ,, I looked at the Windpilot Windvane by searching Google on net.
Very interesting ,, Now, where would I go to buy one? While I may not know much about them, it didn't seem as if there was much to them. Any ideas on where to shop for one .. Any idea on price .. thanks, ------------- "Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message ... In .com " writes: I've used wind vanes on passages and agree that they are very good things. I've even considered putting one on my catamaran which has carried me many thousands of off shore miles. However, I believe that the costs associated with vanes are too high compared to the benefits on my boat. Each case will be different, but here is my thinking on this for my boat: Because it is different for different boats, it is perhaps necessary to bring some other angles into this. I. Benefits: 1) wind/water powered, works even if engine and electrical fail. If you have a "servo-pendulum" windvane, where the boat speed is giving the mechanical power to steer the boat is is superior to cheap tillerpilots, as the boat speed will determine the speed and power of rudder action, as the cheap tillerpilots have electric motor of single speed. 2) simple can be fixed in remote locals. Tolerates better water than electronic gears, failure rates lover. Thus more reliable. 3) power savings allow for greater use of electronic nav aids like RADAR. 4) silent. 5) amusing. 6) looks salty. II. Costs: 1) very expensive compared to electronic self steering unless home built. Expensive compared to cheap electronics, but one should not compare the price of a state of the art windvane to the cheapest electronic pilots. 2) Adds a lot of weight to the end of the boat reducing available payload, increasing ptiching moment and increasing drag. Speed and seakeeping costs are larger on total and percantage basis as boats get lighter and faster. Windpilot Pacific (boats from 30 to 65 feet) weights 44 lbs (20 kg), I would not call this a lot. I am positive that in a 40 foor boat you can not see or feel the difference in pitching. 3) Add wind and water drag. Drag increases greatly as boat velocity increases so fast boats pay more than slow ones here, too. Applies only for multihulls and ULDB boats, not on the majority of cruising boats. 4) Does not function in calms. I have not seen a sailing boat moving in calm. If you are motoring in calm you can use the tiller pilot. If there is enough wind to move the boat for some 3 knots, there is enough wind to steer with the Windpilot. 5) Functions poorly or even dangerously when boat speed approaches wind speed. Again, a problem only for fast boats. Racing multihuls and ULDB:s, not ordinary cruising boats. 6) Exposed to elements, part failures, eg oars and vanes, common. Is not true for the good ones. I would dare to make a bet that a proper windvane, say Windpilot, will outlast almost any electronic pilot. Fast boats will put more strain on the gear and should expect greater failure rates. The same applies to electronic gear. 7) Increased dock fees based on LOA. Not true for Windpilot Pacific. When you turn the oar up, it will be inside the stern level. I would not recommed the windvanes with steering rudders, as they are more vulnerable in the stern. Some makes are taking much more space behind the boat, avoid them (Monitor, Aries etc.) 8) Complicates davit arrangements Some of the complications can be avoided by crafty plannind. 9) May make boat more difficult to manuver esp. in reverse. Do not buy one with own steering rudder, because it is a nuisance when manouvering. 10) Setting and retrieving oar or rudder can be difficult. Depends on the make. Why to buy one where this is true. In Windpilot Pacific it is very easy, you just let it fall into the sea and you pull it up by a piece of string. 11) Does not steer a compass course, makes DR much more diffiuclt. I do not know why you should steer a sailboat with a windvane to a compas course, but if you really need to do it, you can take the smallest and cheapest autopilot, and let it steer you servo-pendulum windvane instead of the wind. By the way, I do not see the point of this, as the sailing boat does not sail by itself to a compas course accurate enough for DR. 12) Look industrial. You may keep your opinion on the looks. - Lauri Tarkkonen -- Tom. |
Wind-vane self steering .. questions, thoughts, ..
Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:
In .com " writes: .... Because it is different for different boats, it is perhaps necessary to bring some other angles into this. I agree with you and I want to make it clear that the "benefits" and "costs" I listed were in relation to my current boat which is a moderatly quick and light multihull. I think that the percentage of light fast boats in the "serious" cruising fleet here in the Pacific is growing quickly but as you rightly point out a significant majority of the boats out here are well suited to wind-vane steering. Long range cruisers in small boats (say less than 65 feet) that can use wind vane steering probably ought to use it and will probably love it. .... II. Costs: 1) very expensive compared to electronic self steering unless home built. Expensive compared to cheap electronics, but one should not compare the price of a state of the art windvane to the cheapest electronic pilots. Here in the States you can get a pretty nice gyro assised AP unit for about half the price of quality vane set-up. My B&G system cost me about the same as a vane but has a lot more functionality. YMMV. 2) Adds a lot of weight to the end of the boat reducing available payload, increasing ptiching moment and increasing drag. Speed and seakeeping costs are larger on total and percantage basis as boats get lighter and faster. Windpilot Pacific (boats from 30 to 65 feet) weights 44 lbs (20 kg), I would not call this a lot. I am positive that in a 40 foor boat you can not see or feel the difference in pitching. Here I disagree. I've delivered boats in "cruise" mode and then sailed them in "race" mode and the differences are astounding. Race mode isn't just faster, it more comfortable if slowed to the same speed as cruise mode, too. I grant you that this may be a hard sell here in rbc, but weight in the ends of boats is very bad. If you put 20 kg on the stearn of most 40 ft boats the stearn will sink a cm or two. This doens't seem signifcant. Typically the owner will just move a bit of junk foreward to bring the boat on to her lines. The pitching moment has been increased by the 20 kg times the square of it's distance from the center of pitching and has also been increased by moving the other stuff to re-trim the boat. At this point the amout of time it takes for the boat to respond to a wave has been increased noticably. At least noticably to those of us who sail upwind in winds of force 6 and greater and have been spoiled by boats that do this well... .... 6) Exposed to elements, part failures, eg oars and vanes, common. Is not true for the good ones. I would dare to make a bet that a proper windvane, say Windpilot, will outlast almost any electronic pilot. I've watched 5 "classes" come through the Pacific milk run and vane failure is pretty common, but you don't need to find an EE to fix it... Fast boats will put more strain on the gear and should expect greater failure rates. The same applies to electronic gear. Not really. A well designed rudder will tend to keep steering loads light at the quadrant or tiller even at high speeds which is all the AP will feel. .... 12) Look industrial. You may keep your opinion on the looks. Sorry, I listed looks in both categories. The OP says he like them so they would be a benefit for him. .... -- Tom. |
Wind-vane self steering .. questions, thoughts, ..
In "Gordon" writes:
You're partial to Windpilot. I made some five years of research before I bought my windvane, initially I was interested in Aries and Monitor, but found out that Windpilot is (at least min my case) the better choice. Any interest (moneywise) in that company? This is insulting. The only interest I have in the company, that I have bought one of their pilots. How would you mount a windpilot when there is an outboard in the middle of the stern? If you bother to check out their web-side you will find out that they have a multitude of bracket arrangements, allowing for canoe sterns, outside hanging rudders, so you can use your imagination in applying them. Beside studying some five years the available windvanes, I have been following (with lesser intensity) the development of the field since the late seventies and can say, that the big difference between say Aries, Monitor and Windpilot is, that the maker of Aries lost faith in the windvane and the development was stopped, Monitor picked the idea and made it in stainles steel, but Peter Foerthman has made three different generations of windvanes, starting from new when he had learned enough of the previous models. I have been in Cowes and met the makers of Aries and installed it in a friends boat, I have met the maker of Aries (by the way he is Swedish, and I cruise in the waters where he started sailing, so we have had long discussions about the windvanes during while we met), I have discussed with the developer of Windpilot many times, so I have some perspective of the situation and the gear. One sick feature here is, that all the wendors badmouth the competition and it seems that all of them are scared of Windpilot. The tone of your mail suggest me, that you have some interest in some of the companies. By the way, read Foerthmans book, it is free in the net. I dare to promise you, that after reading it, you have to admit that he knows his stuff. Of course I do not expect you to admit it in public. - Lauri Tarkkonen Gordon "Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message ... In .com " writes: I've used wind vanes on passages and agree that they are very good things. I've even considered putting one on my catamaran which has carried me many thousands of off shore miles. However, I believe that the costs associated with vanes are too high compared to the benefits on my boat. Each case will be different, but here is my thinking on this for my boat: Because it is different for different boats, it is perhaps necessary to bring some other angles into this. I. Benefits: 1) wind/water powered, works even if engine and electrical fail. If you have a "servo-pendulum" windvane, where the boat speed is giving the mechanical power to steer the boat is is superior to cheap tillerpilots, as the boat speed will determine the speed and power of rudder action, as the cheap tillerpilots have electric motor of single speed. 2) simple can be fixed in remote locals. Tolerates better water than electronic gears, failure rates lover. Thus more reliable. 3) power savings allow for greater use of electronic nav aids like RADAR. 4) silent. 5) amusing. 6) looks salty. II. Costs: 1) very expensive compared to electronic self steering unless home built. Expensive compared to cheap electronics, but one should not compare the price of a state of the art windvane to the cheapest electronic pilots. 2) Adds a lot of weight to the end of the boat reducing available payload, increasing ptiching moment and increasing drag. Speed and seakeeping costs are larger on total and percantage basis as boats get lighter and faster. Windpilot Pacific (boats from 30 to 65 feet) weights 44 lbs (20 kg), I would not call this a lot. I am positive that in a 40 foor boat you can not see or feel the difference in pitching. 3) Add wind and water drag. Drag increases greatly as boat velocity increases so fast boats pay more than slow ones here, too. Applies only for multihulls and ULDB boats, not on the majority of cruising boats. 4) Does not function in calms. I have not seen a sailing boat moving in calm. If you are motoring in calm you can use the tiller pilot. If there is enough wind to move the boat for some 3 knots, there is enough wind to steer with the Windpilot. 5) Functions poorly or even dangerously when boat speed approaches wind speed. Again, a problem only for fast boats. Racing multihuls and ULDB:s, not ordinary cruising boats. 6) Exposed to elements, part failures, eg oars and vanes, common. Is not true for the good ones. I would dare to make a bet that a proper windvane, say Windpilot, will outlast almost any electronic pilot. Fast boats will put more strain on the gear and should expect greater failure rates. The same applies to electronic gear. 7) Increased dock fees based on LOA. Not true for Windpilot Pacific. When you turn the oar up, it will be inside the stern level. I would not recommed the windvanes with steering rudders, as they are more vulnerable in the stern. Some makes are taking much more space behind the boat, avoid them (Monitor, Aries etc.) 8) Complicates davit arrangements Some of the complications can be avoided by crafty plannind. 9) May make boat more difficult to manuver esp. in reverse. Do not buy one with own steering rudder, because it is a nuisance when manouvering. 10) Setting and retrieving oar or rudder can be difficult. Depends on the make. Why to buy one where this is true. In Windpilot Pacific it is very easy, you just let it fall into the sea and you pull it up by a piece of string. 11) Does not steer a compass course, makes DR much more diffiuclt. I do not know why you should steer a sailboat with a windvane to a compas course, but if you really need to do it, you can take the smallest and cheapest autopilot, and let it steer you servo-pendulum windvane instead of the wind. By the way, I do not see the point of this, as the sailing boat does not sail by itself to a compas course accurate enough for DR. 12) Look industrial. You may keep your opinion on the looks. - Lauri Tarkkonen -- Tom. |
Wind-vane self steering .. questions, thoughts, ..
In Wayne.B writes:
On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 17:06:46 -0700, "Gordon" wrote: How would you mount a windpilot when there is an outboard in the middle of the stern? Not too many off shore cruising boats have that issue. Use a tiller pilot instead. If he has the problem, he expects everybody to buy a windvane accomodating his problem. - Lauri Tarkkonen |
Wind-vane self steering .. questions, thoughts, ..
In .com " writes:
Lauri Tarkkonen wrote: In .com " writes: ... Because it is different for different boats, it is perhaps necessary to bring some other angles into this. I agree with you and I want to make it clear that the "benefits" and "costs" I listed were in relation to my current boat which is a moderatly quick and light multihull. I think that the percentage of light fast boats in the "serious" cruising fleet here in the Pacific is growing quickly but as you rightly point out a significant majority of the boats out here are well suited to wind-vane steering. Long range cruisers in small boats (say less than 65 feet) that can use wind vane steering probably ought to use it and will probably love it. ... II. Costs: 1) very expensive compared to electronic self steering unless home built. Expensive compared to cheap electronics, but one should not compare the price of a state of the art windvane to the cheapest electronic pilots. Here in the States you can get a pretty nice gyro assised AP unit for about half the price of quality vane set-up. My B&G system cost me about the same as a vane but has a lot more functionality. YMMV. Looks like the price difference is not as much as you wanted to point out. By the way, I have had so many failures with the B&G system, that I am happy that it does not steer my boat. 2) Adds a lot of weight to the end of the boat reducing available payload, increasing ptiching moment and increasing drag. Speed and seakeeping costs are larger on total and percantage basis as boats get lighter and faster. Windpilot Pacific (boats from 30 to 65 feet) weights 44 lbs (20 kg), I would not call this a lot. I am positive that in a 40 foor boat you can not see or feel the difference in pitching. Here I disagree. I've delivered boats in "cruise" mode and then sailed them in "race" mode and the differences are astounding. Race mode isn't just faster, it more comfortable if slowed to the same speed as cruise mode, too. I grant you that this may be a hard sell here in rbc, but weight in the ends of boats is very bad. If you put 20 kg on the stearn of most 40 ft boats the stearn will sink a cm or two. This doens't seem signifcant. Typically the owner will just move a bit of junk foreward to bring the boat on to her lines. The pitching moment has been increased by the 20 kg times the square of it's distance from the center of pitching and has also been increased by moving the other stuff to re-trim the boat. At this point the amout of time it takes for the boat to respond to a wave has been increased noticably. At least noticably to those of us who sail upwind in winds of force 6 and greater and have been spoiled by boats that do this well... I doubt that there are any cruisers, who will move anything because of a new 44 lbs weight in their stern. ... 6) Exposed to elements, part failures, eg oars and vanes, common. Is not true for the good ones. I would dare to make a bet that a proper windvane, say Windpilot, will outlast almost any electronic pilot. I've watched 5 "classes" come through the Pacific milk run and vane failure is pretty common, but you don't need to find an EE to fix it... Fast boats will put more strain on the gear and should expect greater failure rates. The same applies to electronic gear. Not really. A well designed rudder will tend to keep steering loads light at the quadrant or tiller even at high speeds which is all the AP will feel. I would not recommend windvanes with their own steering rudders, as the boats own rudder is superior to that and the idea of having the rudder of the windpilot as an emergency back up, is only sales propaganda. In most cases where you loose your rudder you will loose the windvane rudder as well. ... 12) Look industrial. You may keep your opinion on the looks. Sorry, I listed looks in both categories. The OP says he like them so they would be a benefit for him. No reason to apologice, I think you may have any opinion about the looks and you can change them at your whim. - Lauri Tarkkonen ... -- Tom. |
Wind-vane self steering .. questions, thoughts, ..
Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:
.... I doubt that there are any cruisers, who will move anything because of a new 44 lbs weight in their stern. I would and I consider myself a cruiser. -- Tom. |
Wind-vane self steering .. questions, thoughts, ..
In .com " writes:
Lauri Tarkkonen wrote: ... I doubt that there are any cruisers, who will move anything because of a new 44 lbs weight in their stern. I would and I consider myself a cruiser. -- Tom. And how many besides you? I know that in racing half a boatlenght at the rounding mark will give you and advantage and perhaps win you a race, but when you are sailing alone, you can not measure or regognize the difference. Of course you can believe it and belief moves mountains as they say. - Lauri Tarkkonen |
Wind-vane self steering .. questions, thoughts, ..
Lauri ,,, I did more research on the Wind-Vane. More interesting info.
Apparently, there is a book that shows how to make your own system using tubing, etc you purchase locally. Of course, I would need to find someone who can work with the tubing etc. I like the Windpilot system more and more as I read more and more. I'm not sure I can afford one, or actually really need one, but just learning about how they operate has been fun. Now, off to the library for a look at the "book" if I can find it. If not in the library, Barnes and Noble. The question of weight seems to be a big issue. If I have this right, most Wind Vanes are built with stainless steel. While stainless is very good metal ... couldn't a windvane be built with Aluminum? Is Aluminum not strong enough? What about the new fibers, such as Kevlar? Isn't that stuff strong as steel? Thanks for the info .. ============== "Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message ... In MCCWg.2807$YD.503@trndny09 "Benning Wentworth" writes: Lauri ,, I looked at the Windpilot Windvane by searching Google on net. Very interesting ,, Now, where would I go to buy one? While I may not know much about them, it didn't seem as if there was much to them. Any ideas on where to shop for one .. Any idea on price .. thanks, Depends on where you live. I live in Europe, sail in Baltics, so I agreed with Peter Foerthmann, who lives in Hamburg, Germany, that if I come to Travemuende, about 30 miles from Hamburg, he will bring the gear to me in Travemuende. If you live in USA then you could contact their US office: Windsteering Systems Windpilot Bandwirkerstraße 39-41 D 22041 Hamburg Germany tel: + 49 (0) 40 652 52 44 fax: + 49 (0) 40 68 65 15 www.windpilot.com email: US office Doro & Greg Kruegermann 2226 Maurice Ave. La Crescenta CA 91214 USA tel: + 1 818 541 9321 tel: 1877-2 WINDPILOT fax: + 1 (323) 662-7616 email: I am not their sales agent, this information is just a copy of the web page of Windpilot. I can tell you that this is a cut throat market, the gear is "hand made", not a mass production and the serious sailors really wanting one are few and far between. You can see, it by reading some messages accusing me of having economic interest in this gear, when I tell about it, based on my own experience. - Lauri Tarkkonen ------------- "Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message ... In .com " writes: I've used wind vanes on passages and agree that they are very good things. I've even considered putting one on my catamaran which has carried me many thousands of off shore miles. However, I believe that the costs associated with vanes are too high compared to the benefits on my boat. Each case will be different, but here is my thinking on this for my boat: Because it is different for different boats, it is perhaps necessary to bring some other angles into this. I. Benefits: 1) wind/water powered, works even if engine and electrical fail. If you have a "servo-pendulum" windvane, where the boat speed is giving the mechanical power to steer the boat is is superior to cheap tillerpilots, as the boat speed will determine the speed and power of rudder action, as the cheap tillerpilots have electric motor of single speed. 2) simple can be fixed in remote locals. Tolerates better water than electronic gears, failure rates lover. Thus more reliable. 3) power savings allow for greater use of electronic nav aids like RADAR. 4) silent. 5) amusing. 6) looks salty. II. Costs: 1) very expensive compared to electronic self steering unless home built. Expensive compared to cheap electronics, but one should not compare the price of a state of the art windvane to the cheapest electronic pilots. 2) Adds a lot of weight to the end of the boat reducing available payload, increasing ptiching moment and increasing drag. Speed and seakeeping costs are larger on total and percantage basis as boats get lighter and faster. Windpilot Pacific (boats from 30 to 65 feet) weights 44 lbs (20 kg), I would not call this a lot. I am positive that in a 40 foor boat you can not see or feel the difference in pitching. 3) Add wind and water drag. Drag increases greatly as boat velocity increases so fast boats pay more than slow ones here, too. Applies only for multihulls and ULDB boats, not on the majority of cruising boats. 4) Does not function in calms. I have not seen a sailing boat moving in calm. If you are motoring in calm you can use the tiller pilot. If there is enough wind to move the boat for some 3 knots, there is enough wind to steer with the Windpilot. 5) Functions poorly or even dangerously when boat speed approaches wind speed. Again, a problem only for fast boats. Racing multihuls and ULDB:s, not ordinary cruising boats. 6) Exposed to elements, part failures, eg oars and vanes, common. Is not true for the good ones. I would dare to make a bet that a proper windvane, say Windpilot, will outlast almost any electronic pilot. Fast boats will put more strain on the gear and should expect greater failure rates. The same applies to electronic gear. 7) Increased dock fees based on LOA. Not true for Windpilot Pacific. When you turn the oar up, it will be inside the stern level. I would not recommed the windvanes with steering rudders, as they are more vulnerable in the stern. Some makes are taking much more space behind the boat, avoid them (Monitor, Aries etc.) 8) Complicates davit arrangements Some of the complications can be avoided by crafty plannind. 9) May make boat more difficult to manuver esp. in reverse. Do not buy one with own steering rudder, because it is a nuisance when manouvering. 10) Setting and retrieving oar or rudder can be difficult. Depends on the make. Why to buy one where this is true. In Windpilot Pacific it is very easy, you just let it fall into the sea and you pull it up by a piece of string. 11) Does not steer a compass course, makes DR much more diffiuclt. I do not know why you should steer a sailboat with a windvane to a compas course, but if you really need to do it, you can take the smallest and cheapest autopilot, and let it steer you servo-pendulum windvane instead of the wind. By the way, I do not see the point of this, as the sailing boat does not sail by itself to a compas course accurate enough for DR. 12) Look industrial. You may keep your opinion on the looks. - Lauri Tarkkonen -- Tom. |
Wind-vane self steering .. questions, thoughts, ..
In sTPWg.6144$K11.5935@trndny07 "Benning Wentworth" writes:
Lauri ,,, I did more research on the Wind-Vane. More interesting info. Apparently, there is a book that shows how to make your own system using tubing, etc you purchase locally. Of course, I would need to find someone who can work with the tubing etc. There are many books written on windvanes. Anyway I suggest you read Peter Foerthmans book Self steering under sail. Another is Gerard Dijkstra Self-steering for Yachts, but it is quite old, year 1979. I like the Windpilot system more and more as I read more and more. I'm not sure I can afford one, or actually really need one, but just learning about how they operate has been fun. A good windvane is not cheap. By the way, if you count every bolt and washer the Windpilot Pacific has about 100 pieces. I know a sailor, who said that the price is ridiculous, he can make one cheaper any day. As I showed him the Windpilot manua and he asked some quotations from potential makers he knew (they owed him a fawour), all them told him, that if the price quotation is right, he should take it. If you try to make one, you should be very carefull to look at the various pieces and their strenght. Some are under more stress and some are not as hardly pressed. Foerthmans books has some interesting comparisions of Aries, Monitor and Windpilot. The book can be loaded for free: http://www.windpilot.com/ Then there is quite a bit discussion of the bearings. Here delrin vs. ball or needle bearings is the question. The problem with ball bearings is, that the salt water will have the last word. Delrin is cheaper and if the tolerances are right, it will last for ever. Here the weight is given to the tolerances. If they are not right, you will have problems, later on, perhaps when you are in the middle of pacific. Some of the windvanes are not very welt built. Now, off to the library for a look at the "book" if I can find it. What book are you referring to? If not in the library, Barnes and Noble. The question of weight seems to be a big issue. If I have this right, most Wind Vanes are built with stainless steel. While stainless is very good metal ... couldn't a windvane be built with Aluminum? Is Aluminum not strong enough? Aries and Windpilot are built in aluminium, Monitor, Fleming and many others are built in stainles steel. Windpilot did it earlier in stainless steel, but whent back to aluminium. He is using high grade salt water corrosion resistant aluminium. On acruising boat about 40-50 lbs is not a big issue. Mine is on a 40 feetboat and even though this a a firly light displacement boat, there is not any noticeable difference in the sailing characteristics if the windvane is with me or not. Most cruising boats have water and fuel tanks with more than 500 lbs of fluid. how many cruisesr move their cloths, meatbals and books when their fuel or watertank is half empty? What about the new fibers, such as Kevlar? Isn't that stuff strong as steel? When you said something about affording one, I thought that the cost was an issue. If you want a light one (but not very resistant to dents), you use carbon fibre. Aluminium is strong enough if it is properly dimensioned, but the welding needs a professional, but you can make the joints with different kind of elements, you can buy for pulpits and other things. Thanks for the info .. You are wellcome. - Lauri Tarkkonen ============== "Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message ... In MCCWg.2807$YD.503@trndny09 "Benning Wentworth" writes: Lauri ,, I looked at the Windpilot Windvane by searching Google on net. Very interesting ,, Now, where would I go to buy one? While I may not know much about them, it didn't seem as if there was much to them. Any ideas on where to shop for one .. Any idea on price .. thanks, Depends on where you live. I live in Europe, sail in Baltics, so I agreed with Peter Foerthmann, who lives in Hamburg, Germany, that if I come to Travemuende, about 30 miles from Hamburg, he will bring the gear to me in Travemuende. If you live in USA then you could contact their US office: Windsteering Systems Windpilot Bandwirkerstraße 39-41 D 22041 Hamburg Germany tel: + 49 (0) 40 652 52 44 fax: + 49 (0) 40 68 65 15 www.windpilot.com email: US office Doro & Greg Kruegermann 2226 Maurice Ave. La Crescenta CA 91214 USA tel: + 1 818 541 9321 tel: 1877-2 WINDPILOT fax: + 1 (323) 662-7616 email: I am not their sales agent, this information is just a copy of the web page of Windpilot. I can tell you that this is a cut throat market, the gear is "hand made", not a mass production and the serious sailors really wanting one are few and far between. You can see, it by reading some messages accusing me of having economic interest in this gear, when I tell about it, based on my own experience. - Lauri Tarkkonen ------------- "Lauri Tarkkonen" wrote in message ... In .com " writes: I've used wind vanes on passages and agree that they are very good things. I've even considered putting one on my catamaran which has carried me many thousands of off shore miles. However, I believe that the costs associated with vanes are too high compared to the benefits on my boat. Each case will be different, but here is my thinking on this for my boat: Because it is different for different boats, it is perhaps necessary to bring some other angles into this. I. Benefits: 1) wind/water powered, works even if engine and electrical fail. If you have a "servo-pendulum" windvane, where the boat speed is giving the mechanical power to steer the boat is is superior to cheap tillerpilots, as the boat speed will determine the speed and power of rudder action, as the cheap tillerpilots have electric motor of single speed. 2) simple can be fixed in remote locals. Tolerates better water than electronic gears, failure rates lover. Thus more reliable. 3) power savings allow for greater use of electronic nav aids like RADAR. 4) silent. 5) amusing. 6) looks salty. II. Costs: 1) very expensive compared to electronic self steering unless home built. Expensive compared to cheap electronics, but one should not compare the price of a state of the art windvane to the cheapest electronic pilots. 2) Adds a lot of weight to the end of the boat reducing available payload, increasing ptiching moment and increasing drag. Speed and seakeeping costs are larger on total and percantage basis as boats get lighter and faster. Windpilot Pacific (boats from 30 to 65 feet) weights 44 lbs (20 kg), I would not call this a lot. I am positive that in a 40 foor boat you can not see or feel the difference in pitching. 3) Add wind and water drag. Drag increases greatly as boat velocity increases so fast boats pay more than slow ones here, too. Applies only for multihulls and ULDB boats, not on the majority of cruising boats. 4) Does not function in calms. I have not seen a sailing boat moving in calm. If you are motoring in calm you can use the tiller pilot. If there is enough wind to move the boat for some 3 knots, there is enough wind to steer with the Windpilot. 5) Functions poorly or even dangerously when boat speed approaches wind speed. Again, a problem only for fast boats. Racing multihuls and ULDB:s, not ordinary cruising boats. 6) Exposed to elements, part failures, eg oars and vanes, common. Is not true for the good ones. I would dare to make a bet that a proper windvane, say Windpilot, will outlast almost any electronic pilot. Fast boats will put more strain on the gear and should expect greater failure rates. The same applies to electronic gear. 7) Increased dock fees based on LOA. Not true for Windpilot Pacific. When you turn the oar up, it will be inside the stern level. I would not recommed the windvanes with steering rudders, as they are more vulnerable in the stern. Some makes are taking much more space behind the boat, avoid them (Monitor, Aries etc.) 8) Complicates davit arrangements Some of the complications can be avoided by crafty plannind. 9) May make boat more difficult to manuver esp. in reverse. Do not buy one with own steering rudder, because it is a nuisance when manouvering. 10) Setting and retrieving oar or rudder can be difficult. Depends on the make. Why to buy one where this is true. In Windpilot Pacific it is very easy, you just let it fall into the sea and you pull it up by a piece of string. 11) Does not steer a compass course, makes DR much more diffiuclt. I do not know why you should steer a sailboat with a windvane to a compas course, but if you really need to do it, you can take the smallest and cheapest autopilot, and let it steer you servo-pendulum windvane instead of the wind. By the way, I do not see the point of this, as the sailing boat does not sail by itself to a compas course accurate enough for DR. 12) Look industrial. You may keep your opinion on the looks. - Lauri Tarkkonen -- Tom. |
Wind-vane self steering .. questions, thoughts, ..
I doubt that there are any cruisers, who will move anything because of a
new 44 lbs weight in their stern. I would and I consider myself a cruiser. And how many besides you? ... Well, I know quite a few cruisers and delivery skippers who always make the effort to tune and trim a boat before going on a voyage. I also know folks who are happy that the sea will "autostow" their gear for them and don't give any thought to trim at all. How many cruisers are there in the world in the first category? I don't know. Filtering through just cruising people I know I'd say maybe 25% of the total and near 100% of the pro and semi-pro sailors. Will cruisers notice the difference between a well trimmed boat a poorly trimed one? Some will. For instance, my girl friend and I recently set sail from New Zealand bound for Honolulu. Two fully crewed boats run by owners, more in the "autostow" camp than the careful stow camp, set out on the same route over a day ahead of us. We overtook both boats just over 72 hours out and we all pretty quickly ran into gale force head winds caused by a stalled complex low trapped on a very intense high. I slowed my boat down to 4-6 knots to make the ride tolerable and continued beating along the track freeing myself from the crush zone in just over a week. The other two boats were unable to make good any ground to windward, both took damage, and when the winds finally relented both were forced to divert to make repairs an let off crew. One of the two finally made it to Honolulu nearly two months after we arrived the other never got here. I am familiar with both boats and I am sure that the reason that they were stopped by those conditions was because they had paid very little attention to setting their boats up for efficient sailing. I suspect that damage that they took was increased because their poor trim made their boats work harder against the sea than they needed to. I could list other stories, like my friends who took off from Tonga headed for Samoa but had to give up and go to Fiji after two weeks because the couldn't go upwind into the trades and my friends that left Honolulu bound for the mainland only to return because they couldn't make way into the trades... In the later case, just a bit of rig tuning and moving an anchor and it's rode off the bow got them back out there and off to where they wanted to go. Now, I don't want to make a judgement on the "correctness" of the two schools, and I'm not even sure that there are two distinct schools but suspect a normal curve. I cruise to have fun. My experience is that the "autostow" folks tend to have a lot of fun and have great stories to tell at the bar, too. But I do think that it there are times when a cruiser's life is noticablely better when sailing on a well trimmed boat. -- Tom. |
Wind-vane self steering .. questions, thoughts, ..
In .com " writes:
I doubt that there are any cruisers, who will move anything because of a new 44 lbs weight in their stern. I would and I consider myself a cruiser. And how many besides you? ... Well, I know quite a few cruisers and delivery skippers who always make the effort to tune and trim a boat before going on a voyage. I also know folks who are happy that the sea will "autostow" their gear for them and don't give any thought to trim at all. How many cruisers are there in the world in the first category? I don't know. Filtering through just cruising people I know I'd say maybe 25% of the total and near 100% of the pro and semi-pro sailors. Will cruisers notice the difference between a well trimmed boat a poorly trimed one? Some will. For instance, my girl friend and I recently set sail from New Zealand bound for Honolulu. Two fully crewed boats run by owners, more in the "autostow" camp than the careful stow camp, set out on the same route over a day ahead of us. We overtook both boats just over 72 hours out and we all pretty quickly ran into gale force head winds caused by a stalled complex low trapped on a very intense high. I slowed my boat down to 4-6 knots to make the ride tolerable and continued beating along the track freeing myself from the crush zone in just over a week. The other two boats were unable to make good any ground to windward, both took damage, and when the winds finally relented both were forced to divert to make repairs an let off crew. One of the two finally made it to Honolulu nearly two months after we arrived the other never got here. I am familiar with both boats and I am sure that the reason that they were stopped by those conditions was because they had paid very little attention to setting their boats up for efficient sailing. I suspect that damage that they took was increased because their poor trim made their boats work harder against the sea than they needed to. I could list other stories, like my friends who took off from Tonga headed for Samoa but had to give up and go to Fiji after two weeks because the couldn't go upwind into the trades and my friends that left Honolulu bound for the mainland only to return because they couldn't make way into the trades... In the later case, just a bit of rig tuning and moving an anchor and it's rode off the bow got them back out there and off to where they wanted to go. Now, I don't want to make a judgement on the "correctness" of the two schools, and I'm not even sure that there are two distinct schools but suspect a normal curve. I cruise to have fun. My experience is that the "autostow" folks tend to have a lot of fun and have great stories to tell at the bar, too. But I do think that it there are times when a cruiser's life is noticablely better when sailing on a well trimmed boat. If you try to tell me that the difference between death and life is the 44 pounds of a windvane installed in tha rear, I have to tell you that I rather take the boat with the proper windvane than the one without. If the less than 50 pound weight is bothering you soo much you have to move your gear everytime you spend some water or pi in the septic tank. - Lauri Tarkkonen |
Wind-vane self steering .. questions, thoughts, ..
Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:
If you try to tell me that the difference between death and life is the 44 pounds of a windvane installed in tha rear, I have to tell you that I rather take the boat with the proper windvane than the one without. I am sorry you got that impression from my post. I was not trying to suggest any such thing. Once more, as I've said each time, I think windavnes are great and they work very well on most cruising boats. -- Tom. |
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