My wife Joanne and I are recently retired from nursing and teaching
respectfully. We have had powerboats in Alaska for decades and upon
retirement we decided we wanted a fairly large sailboat for coastal
cruising. We had bought a 26 ft. MacGregor Sailboat in 2005 and used it
on Kachemak Bay in Homer, Alaska where we live and still own and sail
that little boat there.

After a lot of research and sea trials, we bought a 1980 37 ft. Hunter
Sailboat from San Carlos Yachts ( by the way, Marisa and Charlie are
absolutely the greatest, hard working and honest.) We decided on a
sailboat because a similar size powerboat would cost us a fortune in
fuel consumption. Sailboats are slow but economical. Although we had
lot of experience with wind and tide under power, we knew we would need
instruction on the handling of sails. We are experienced with boating
under power in the harbor and on the open water. We engaged David
Baraff of the San Carlos Sailing School. He agreed to come aboard our
boat and provide us with instruction at a rate of $400 per day for 4
days. For $1600 we received 2 one half inch thick books.

We had hoped instruction would lead to "Basic Keelboat Sailing"
and "Coastal Cruising" certifications. Both of these courses are
part of the American Sailing Association or ASA curriculum. This did
not occur. At the time of instruction and even later, (view e-mails
below), David said we had passed the on water exercises and written
examination for Basic Keelboat Sailing (a prerequisite for taking
Coastal Cruising!!) We also passed the written exam for Coastal
Cruising and most of the on water exercises. He insisted on having us
finish the on water exercises in the afternoon when winds had built to
30 knots. We had suggested we do the on water demonstrations in the
morning but he refused and had us take the written portion of Coastal
Cruising instead, (which we passed by the way.) When we refused to go
out in the afternoon, he said our time was up and he was too busy to do
the demonstrations at another time. At that point, we told him to leave
our boat. He did leave only after we gave him $800 (we had previously
given him $800.)

After he left, we talked with fellow boat owners living in the harbor
like us. They were not going out sailing because it was blowing 30
knots. One couple in the boat next to ours have sailed to Hawaii and
Alaska and they said and I am paraphrasing, ' if you are caught out
in rough weather, you have to deal with it, however, it is prudent to
avoid it.'

Please read the following e-mails. We would still abide by ours. Mr.
Baraff just will not keep his word.


In a message dated 4/4/2006 9:18:31 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
writes:
David,
Charley Nobles called me and let me know you are rigidly standing to
your position.
I am getting tired of this nonsense and I am willing to compromise.
Joanne and I passed the Basic Keelboat written exam and demonstrated
the required skills. We expect this certification but NOT the Coastal
Cruising certification.
As a matter of good faith, I have taken down the body of our websites.
You can check www.sancarlosmexicosailing.net and
www.sancarlossailingschoolbeware.net . I will leave the sites active
until I hear from you via e-mail. I will then remove them entirely, as
well as, any outside sites I have posted on. In addition, I will
contact Charley Nobles and let him know our dispute has been rectified
and I will ask him to withdraw our complaint.
Awaiting a reply.
Cordially,
Tom Byrnes
Tom
Consider it done
however, I wont be able to send in the paperwork until I go back to the
states
that will be soon, but cant say exactly when
they will then process it and get it out to you
thanks for your consideration

wrote in message
oups.com...
My wife Joanne and I are recently retired from nursing and teaching
respectfully. We have had powerboats in Alaska for decades and upon
retirement we decided we wanted a fairly large sailboat for coastal
cruising. We had bought a 26 ft. MacGregor Sailboat in 2005 and used it
on Kachemak Bay in Homer, Alaska where we live and still own and sail
that little boat there.

After a lot of research and sea trials, we bought a 1980 37 ft. Hunter
Sailboat from San Carlos Yachts ( by the way, Marisa and Charlie are
absolutely the greatest, hard working and honest.) We decided on a
sailboat because a similar size powerboat would cost us a fortune in
fuel consumption. Sailboats are slow but economical. Although we had
lot of experience with wind and tide under power, we knew we would need
instruction on the handling of sails. We are experienced with boating
under power in the harbor and on the open water. We engaged David
Baraff of the San Carlos Sailing School. He agreed to come aboard our
boat and provide us with instruction at a rate of $400 per day for 4
days. For $1600 we received 2 one half inch thick books.

We had hoped instruction would lead to "Basic Keelboat Sailing"
and "Coastal Cruising" certifications. Both of these courses are
part of the American Sailing Association or ASA curriculum. This did
not occur. At the time of instruction and even later, (view e-mails
below), David said we had passed the on water exercises and written
examination for Basic Keelboat Sailing (a prerequisite for taking
Coastal Cruising!!) We also passed the written exam for Coastal
Cruising and most of the on water exercises. He insisted on having us
finish the on water exercises in the afternoon when winds had built to
30 knots. We had suggested we do the on water demonstrations in the
morning but he refused and had us take the written portion of Coastal
Cruising instead, (which we passed by the way.) When we refused to go
out in the afternoon, he said our time was up and he was too busy to do
the demonstrations at another time. At that point, we told him to leave
our boat. He did leave only after we gave him $800 (we had previously
given him $800.)

After he left, we talked with fellow boat owners living in the harbor
like us. They were not going out sailing because it was blowing 30
knots. One couple in the boat next to ours have sailed to Hawaii and
Alaska and they said and I am paraphrasing, ' if you are caught out
in rough weather, you have to deal with it, however, it is prudent to
avoid it.'

Please read the following e-mails. We would still abide by ours. Mr.
Baraff just will not keep his word.


In a message dated 4/4/2006 9:18:31 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
writes:
David,
Charley Nobles called me and let me know you are rigidly standing to
your position.
I am getting tired of this nonsense and I am willing to compromise.
Joanne and I passed the Basic Keelboat written exam and demonstrated
the required skills. We expect this certification but NOT the Coastal
Cruising certification.
As a matter of good faith, I have taken down the body of our websites.
You can check www.sancarlosmexicosailing.net and
www.sancarlossailingschoolbeware.net . I will leave the sites active
until I hear from you via e-mail. I will then remove them entirely, as
well as, any outside sites I have posted on. In addition, I will
contact Charley Nobles and let him know our dispute has been rectified
and I will ask him to withdraw our complaint.
Awaiting a reply.
Cordially,
Tom Byrnes
Tom
Consider it done
however, I wont be able to send in the paperwork until I go back to the
states
that will be soon, but cant say exactly when
they will then process it and get it out to you
thanks for your consideration


Yikes. Well, a couple of things. Some will cause consternation for some
people, perhaps you as well, but here goes...

First, I'm sure you had a nice time with your Mac, but as you seem to have
figured out, it's not up to the task of anything more than modest sailing...
a lousy compromise IMHO between power and sail... but you seem to have
enjoyed your time on her, and that's good.

Second, I'm not a great fan of Hunters. I teach Basic Cruising on 31/32'
Hunters, and there isn't an instructor in the program who likes them. They
tend to sail poorly and are very tender (among other things). If you had
asked before making a purchase, I would have suggested you sail all kinds of
different boats before making a decision (perhaps you did that and still
bought one... likely you're enjoying the interior space). I find them to be
cheaply built, yada, yada, yada.

Third, while I'm sure you're upset by the treatment you describe, ultimately
you should view it as a lesson learned. Also, you really don't need the
piece of paper that says you have a sailing certification. The real deal is
actually being on the water, knowing the rules of the road, and practice,
practice, practice.

Fourth, 30 kts is a bit excessive for a lesson, especially a beginning less
on a Hunter, but where I sail it isn't that unusual. You do need to
experience that kind of wind and how to deal with it. In fact, I had
students out in just those conditions (20 kts, gusts to 35 or more). It's
the job of the instructor to make the lesson valuable in such conditions,
not scare the crap out of people.

I'm not sure this helps much, but there it is...

Jonathan

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

I generally don't agree with posting private disputes on these public
forums, much less establishing a website to publicize your issues.

But having said that, let me offer some advice:

Forget the sailing certification. It is simply a piece of paper. Actual
experience and capability is what really counts.

And don't let Jonathon sell your 1980 Hunter 37 short. I believe that is the
Cherebuni designed boat and is quite capable.

David

David, I'm not trying to sell it short. I don't like Hunters generally, but
I suppose it's possible for there to be decent ones. I believe this one
might not have the stupid arch in the back. If that's the case, then it
probably sails better than others. I typically teach on newer models (early
this century), and I don't like them. You'll note that I didn't say he
should avoid them, rather I said I would have recommended trying different
boats before making a decision. Perhaps he did that. Certainly, given his
limited experience sailing larger boats and his choice of a Mac (don't lets
start vilifying Macs), it could easily be inferred that he didn't try a lot
of boats. I await clarification.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"David&Joan" wrote in message
news:A2YJg.14602$lv.2561@fed1read12...
I generally don't agree with posting private disputes on these public
forums, much less establishing a website to publicize your issues.

But having said that, let me offer some advice:

Forget the sailing certification. It is simply a piece of paper. Actual
experience and capability is what really counts.

And don't let Jonathon sell your 1980 Hunter 37 short. I believe that is
the Cherebuni designed boat and is quite capable.

David

I currently have a deal pending on a 1980 Cherubini Hunter 37. I 've
checked out what's said about these boats, and the reviews are actually
pretty favorable. That is for the older 80's vintage Cherubini designs.
I've been on other production boats and I'm convinced the quality of
these boats measures up. Sea trial on Wed. We shall see.
mando


Capt. JG wrote:
David, I'm not trying to sell it short. I don't like Hunters generally, but
I suppose it's possible for there to be decent ones. I believe this one
might not have the stupid arch in the back. If that's the case, then it
probably sails better than others. I typically teach on newer models (early
this century), and I don't like them. You'll note that I didn't say he
should avoid them, rather I said I would have recommended trying different
boats before making a decision. Perhaps he did that. Certainly, given his
limited experience sailing larger boats and his choice of a Mac (don't lets
start vilifying Macs), it could easily be inferred that he didn't try a lot
of boats. I await clarification.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"David&Joan" wrote in message
news:A2YJg.14602$lv.2561@fed1read12...
I generally don't agree with posting private disputes on these public
forums, much less establishing a website to publicize your issues.

But having said that, let me offer some advice:

Forget the sailing certification. It is simply a piece of paper. Actual
experience and capability is what really counts.

And don't let Jonathon sell your 1980 Hunter 37 short. I believe that is
the Cherebuni designed boat and is quite capable.

David

Sounds interesting. During my search, I completely dismissed Hunters, and
perhaps I shouldn't have done so. I guess I've been jaded by the poor ones
on which I've sailed. Be sure to get a survey unless you feel capable of
doing it yourself. Out here (west coast) a survey is required for insurance.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"mandolin2k" wrote in message
ps.com...
I currently have a deal pending on a 1980 Cherubini Hunter 37. I 've
checked out what's said about these boats, and the reviews are actually
pretty favorable. That is for the older 80's vintage Cherubini designs.
I've been on other production boats and I'm convinced the quality of
these boats measures up. Sea trial on Wed. We shall see.
mando


Capt. JG wrote:
David, I'm not trying to sell it short. I don't like Hunters generally,
but
I suppose it's possible for there to be decent ones. I believe this one
might not have the stupid arch in the back. If that's the case, then it
probably sails better than others. I typically teach on newer models
(early
this century), and I don't like them. You'll note that I didn't say he
should avoid them, rather I said I would have recommended trying
different
boats before making a decision. Perhaps he did that. Certainly, given his
limited experience sailing larger boats and his choice of a Mac (don't
lets
start vilifying Macs), it could easily be inferred that he didn't try a
lot
of boats. I await clarification.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"David&Joan" wrote in message
news:A2YJg.14602$lv.2561@fed1read12...
I generally don't agree with posting private disputes on these public
forums, much less establishing a website to publicize your issues.

But having said that, let me offer some advice:

Forget the sailing certification. It is simply a piece of paper. Actual
experience and capability is what really counts.

And don't let Jonathon sell your 1980 Hunter 37 short. I believe that
is
the Cherebuni designed boat and is quite capable.

David