engine-driven fridge
 

We continue to have problems with our engine-driven refrigeration
system, and wondered if anybody knows what we might be doing wrong. We
keep on blowing up compressors -- either they start to leak after a
couple of months use, or they fail (i.e., no longer bring down the
low-side pressure to a vacuum). We know it's not from 'slugging' ice,
because we routinely monitor the state of the return line about 4 feet
from the compressor, and it's never frozen. When the compressors leak,
we naturally don't know it until the fridge doesn't cool anymore, when
we look at the sight glass and see it's empty. This entails running
the system for 5 minutes or more, empty, because that's how long it
takes for liquid to appear in the sight glass when the system is full.
Is that a long enough time to ruin the compressor? The last time we
opened the system up, we found some black residue blocking one of the
filters at the expansion valve. Any idea how dirt could have gotten
into the system? Maybe from a compressor going bad? How do you clean
it all out?

engine-driven fridge
 

what Freon's are you using? Was it a R12 system that you converted to 134A?
Is there a high pressure switch that opens the clutch? Who's system is it?

More questions then answers right know.


"Akka" wrote in message
oups.com...
We continue to have problems with our engine-driven refrigeration
system, and wondered if anybody knows what we might be doing wrong. We
keep on blowing up compressors -- either they start to leak after a
couple of months use, or they fail (i.e., no longer bring down the
low-side pressure to a vacuum). We know it's not from 'slugging' ice,
because we routinely monitor the state of the return line about 4 feet
from the compressor, and it's never frozen. When the compressors leak,
we naturally don't know it until the fridge doesn't cool anymore, when
we look at the sight glass and see it's empty. This entails running
the system for 5 minutes or more, empty, because that's how long it
takes for liquid to appear in the sight glass when the system is full.
Is that a long enough time to ruin the compressor? The last time we
opened the system up, we found some black residue blocking one of the
filters at the expansion valve. Any idea how dirt could have gotten
into the system? Maybe from a compressor going bad? How do you clean
it all out?

engine-driven fridge
 

"Akka" wrote in news:1155451606.008019.324930
@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

We continue to have problems with our engine-driven refrigeration
system, and wondered if anybody knows what we might be doing wrong. We
keep on blowing up compressors -- either they start to leak after a
couple of months use, or they fail (i.e., no longer bring down the
low-side pressure to a vacuum). We know it's not from 'slugging' ice,
because we routinely monitor the state of the return line about 4 feet
from the compressor, and it's never frozen. When the compressors leak,
we naturally don't know it until the fridge doesn't cool anymore, when
we look at the sight glass and see it's empty. This entails running
the system for 5 minutes or more, empty, because that's how long it
takes for liquid to appear in the sight glass when the system is full.
Is that a long enough time to ruin the compressor? The last time we
opened the system up, we found some black residue blocking one of the
filters at the expansion valve. Any idea how dirt could have gotten
into the system? Maybe from a compressor going bad? How do you clean
it all out?



I'll make some guesses.....(c;

Make sure there is a loop in the return line from the cold plate to the
compressor for residual freon to collect in and boil off (you don't see
moving freon freezing the outside of the line).

Make sure the suction side of the cold plate is the TOP of the cold
plate, sucking freon gas off that has already boiled. I've seen a couple
hooked up upside down that blew the compressor sucking liquid.

Does it have a dryer bottle on the system to get the residual water out
of the liquid line? The bottle may have come apart inside, filling the
expansion valve with material you're seeing. When it becomes clogged,
the expansion valve opens and may pass the stuff onto the compressor
through the cold plate, jamming the compressor, but not very likely.
Replace the dryer bottle, anyway.

OK, you've put the vacuum pump on the system and sucked all the air out,
right? (I say this in jest as I met 3 who thought, wrongly, they could
just blow the air out with freon, which won't work.) How much
refridgerant OIL did you pump in before charging it?? Oh? It needs
special OIL?...(c; Yes, it does, or the compressor will lock from lack
of lubrication. Many don't know it. They just start filling it with
freon and run it dry....not good.

That's two things that make a compressor blow.....no lube oil....and the
biggest cause - pumping LIQUID freon!

The compressor's very low in the system so any liquid freon that didn't
boil off flows downhill into the cylinders made-for-gas-only. You'll
hear a knocking sound as liquid freon hits hot pistons from heat-of-
compression. The freon explodes in the hot cylinders, boiling off
immediately. The pressure the explosion creates is too instantaneous to
flow out the valves into the high pressure outlet. Make a loop in the
hose from the cold plate so that can't happen, so any liquid blown out
the cold plate runs back into the cold plate, hopefully into the TOP of
the cold plate.

Anything sound familiar? What pressures are you measuring on the
Schrader valves?

engine-driven fridge
 

"Rick" wrote in
:

what Freon's are you using? Was it a R12 system that you converted to
134A? Is there a high pressure switch that opens the clutch? Who's
system is it?



Yes, there's another angle, too! When it's converted to R-134a, you should
see just a SPRAY of R-134a in the sight glass, NOT solid liquid with no
bubbles like R-12 was. R-134a is much more cooling so we don't fill the
system.

http://www.wikihow.com/Fix-Cars-Air-Conditioning
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...?articleid=310
&relatedbookgroup=Lubrication
http://www.sanden.com/support/servic.../retrofit.html
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1674978

To sum up from everything I can read.....DON'T. If it was working great on
R-12, find R-12. Some sailors brought me back 4 cases of 16 oz cans from
the Caribbean islands for my old '73 220D's 2-cylinder system. They paid
68c/can for it! Damned stuff was made in TENNESEE...LAST YEAR! This
replacement business is a big EPA-sponsored RIPOFF...

The ozone hole over Antarctica got bigger, year-after-year, after the ban.
Another government lie, raising prices. The SUN causes the hole, stupids.

engine-driven fridge
 

On 12 Aug 2006 23:46:46 -0700, "Akka" wrote:

We continue to have problems with our engine-driven refrigeration
system, and wondered if anybody knows what we might be doing wrong. We
keep on blowing up compressors -- either they start to leak after a
couple of months use, or they fail (i.e., no longer bring down the
low-side pressure to a vacuum). We know it's not from 'slugging' ice,
because we routinely monitor the state of the return line about 4 feet
from the compressor, and it's never frozen. When the compressors leak,
we naturally don't know it until the fridge doesn't cool anymore, when
we look at the sight glass and see it's empty. This entails running
the system for 5 minutes or more, empty, because that's how long it
takes for liquid to appear in the sight glass when the system is full.
Is that a long enough time to ruin the compressor? The last time we
opened the system up, we found some black residue blocking one of the
filters at the expansion valve. Any idea how dirt could have gotten
into the system? Maybe from a compressor going bad? How do you clean
it all out?

When compressors go bad, they usually leave metal flakes at the
expansion valve filter. Black gunge suggests incompatible oil, or
inadequate flushing when changing refrigerant type.
You replaced the dryer/reservoir of course?
You filled with the recommended type and quantity of oil, I expect?
You DO have an electric clutch on the compressor drive, I suppose?
There is a cutout to the clutch for underpressure/overtemp, I expect?

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

engine-driven fridge
 

All engine driven refrigeration compressors were intended to be used on
automobile air conditioning and not for medium to low temperature
refrigeration. In most cases if a compressor had a good service life in
an automobile it could work in a lower temperature system if the system
is designed correctly. If an engine drive refrigeration system is
designed and installed correctly the compressor will operate for twenty
plus years this is a proven fact. Engine driven systems designed by the
original companies of Crosby and Grunert were still running with the
same compressors, these were installed in the late 1970's.

There are a small percentage of new and rebuilt compressors that do
fail prematurely in the first twenty five hours but repeated compressor
failures are preventable. There are a number of reasons why the engine
driven compressor fail:

Compressor capacity is excessive for the size of holding plates; If a
compressor is putting out enough energy to freeze a 500 pound holding
plates in one hour and the plate only weighs 50 pounds the refrigerant
and oil return will not be adequate for lubrication or compressor
cooling, because the expansion device won't allow the flow. The
colder the plates are the less flow of needed refrigerant and oil.
Remember the compressor was designed for high back pressure
applications.

Too large an expansion valve for the evaporator coils in holding
plates; During the off cycle when holding plates are colder than
compressor refrigerant mixed with oil will migrate to the cold plates.
Then after start up with a large valve orifice there will be a quick
flood of this liquid mixture flooding back to compressor causing stress
on reed valves and connecting rods. Some systems must have suction line
accumulators to reduce the liquid return to an acceptable level.

Improper type of refrigerant and oil; Most engine driven refrigeration
systems violate the basic principles of refrigeration, Condensing unit
and return line along with evaporator should be designed to allow
gravity to assist in liquid return, Each component in the system must
be able to match the capacity of the compressor. Oil return will
always depend on miscibility in our boat refrigeration systems, R12 and
mineral oil are miscible, 134a or R12 and polyester oil are miscible
all other refrigerants lack different levels of miscibility at low
temperatures.

Too large of a line in holding plate or anywhere in low pressure side
of system will cause oil accumulation and compressor oil starvation.

Too small of a line or restriction in low pressure side of system will
cause oil accumulation in lines and very low compressor suction
pressure.

engine-driven fridge
 

"Akka" wrote:

We continue to have problems with our engine-driven refrigeration
system, and wondered if anybody knows what we might be doing wrong. We
keep on blowing up compressors -- either they start to leak after a
couple of months use, or they fail (i.e., no longer bring down the
low-side pressure to a vacuum). We know it's not from 'slugging' ice,
because we routinely monitor the state of the return line about 4 feet
from the compressor, and it's never frozen. When the compressors leak,
we naturally don't know it until the fridge doesn't cool anymore, when
we look at the sight glass and see it's empty. This entails running
the system for 5 minutes or more, empty, because that's how long it
takes for liquid to appear in the sight glass when the system is full.
Is that a long enough time to ruin the compressor? The last time we
opened the system up, we found some black residue blocking one of the
filters at the expansion valve. Any idea how dirt could have gotten
into the system? Maybe from a compressor going bad? How do you clean
it all out?

We have an engine driven/shore power refrigeration system that can be done either way.
The key to our particular system is not to run the engine driven refrigeration more than
45 minutes at a time. We normally do it once in the morning and once in the evening. If
you run it for more time than that, the fluids disappear to somewhere and the compressor
freezes up. We have been running ours that way since we bought the boat in 1998 (on
instructions from the PO who had the same problem as you seem to be having with blown
compressors), and have had no problems with it.

The only other thing is that we always check to see that water is coming out the exhaust
(like we do with the engine). When we run it on shore power the time isn't as critical,
but we do about the same as when we are using the engine. Otherwise it will sometimes
stop itself when it gets really cold, although it doesn't seem to hurt it when it does
that.

grandma Rosalie

S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD
CSY 44 WO #156
http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id1.html

engine-driven fridge
 

In article .com,
"Akka" wrote:

We continue to have problems with our engine-driven refrigeration
system, and wondered if anybody knows what we might be doing wrong. We
keep on blowing up compressors -- either they start to leak after a
couple of months use, or they fail (i.e., no longer bring down the
low-side pressure to a vacuum). We know it's not from 'slugging' ice,
because we routinely monitor the state of the return line about 4 feet
from the compressor, and it's never frozen. When the compressors leak,
we naturally don't know it until the fridge doesn't cool anymore, when
we look at the sight glass and see it's empty. This entails running
the system for 5 minutes or more, empty, because that's how long it
takes for liquid to appear in the sight glass when the system is full.
Is that a long enough time to ruin the compressor? The last time we
opened the system up, we found some black residue blocking one of the
filters at the expansion valve. Any idea how dirt could have gotten
into the system? Maybe from a compressor going bad? How do you clean
it all out?


What you need is AN ELCTRIC CLUTCH on that compressor, so that it only
runs when the Refer needs to cool itself. Almost every Car A/C has
one, and for the same reasons you NEED one. Also does you compressor
commect to the rest of the system with some kind of vibration proof
hoses or flexable piping? Now there is a novel idea. Keeping the engine
vibrations out of the refer system.

Me

engine-driven fridge
 

Larry and all other responders,

Thanks for all the advice. We learned a lot from it.

On the R12/R134a issue: too late. We converted from R12 to R134a years
ago, and the system was working fine with R134a for a long time -- now,
no longer. When we installed the last compressor (marked clearly
'R134a' all over it) last month, we evacuated the system and put in a
new dryer, a big accumulator, and of course, gas. The compressor comes
with oil in it, as does the gas, so we didn't add any more.

We put in enough R134a to just barely fill the sight glass -- maybe
that was too much! The expansion valves are on the original factory
settings -- 2 turns closed from fully open. There are 2 low spots
below compressor level in the low-pressure copper tubing: one where the
tube runs under the floorboards from the fridge to the engine
compartment, and one at the bottom of a full loop just before the
compressor.

When we last charged the system, we had 140 psi on the high side, and
something below atmospheric pressure on the low side, when the system
was running and the plates were cold. When we closed the valve on the
high-pressure side, we got 150 psi on the high side and a full vacuum
on the low side. That was the day before the compressor blew. Now it
doesn't draw down to a vacuum (only to about atmospheric pressure) and
doesn't hold the pressure differential at all, after shutoff. So we
figure it's blown.

We didn't hear any knocking sound before the compressor blew but of
course the engine was running at the time and the engine room is
sound-insulated from the cabin. Initially, we did see a light fast
flow of freon across the bottom of the sight glass, then nothing. We
waited 5 minutes, turned off the system, hooked up the gauges, and
discovered we had no pressure -- and a blown compressor.

We don't have a high-pressure valve. We do have an electric clutch,
but in practice it never cuts out because we never run the fridge more
than about an hour at a time, to avoid freezing the lines. We also
check fairly regularly after we've recharged the system with R134a that
we're not frosting the return lines.

So right now I'm concentrating on three possibilities: (1) we may have
overcharged the system, causing fluid to be forced through the
expansion valves and back into the compressor at startup; (2) the
expansion valves might be clogged up and the compressor starved for oil
because of the lack of a return supply; or (3) the new compressor
simply blew -- we discovered that 3 of the nuts on the compressor head
weren't fully tight. But that in itself wouldn't cause the compressor
to fail, would it?

The gunk on the valve filters certainly could have come from
incompatible gasses. We used to get the unit refilled from time to
time by 'professionals' and we're pretty sure at least one of them put
in the wrong gas. That was 2 years ago, but still ...

So, what to do? Apparently, compressors can't be repaired (though it
sure looks like one could replace the head gasket), so we have to buy a
new one. When we do, we'll open up the valves and inspect them,
replace the dryer, vacuum-pump the system, then barely fill it until we
see liquid running across the bottom of the sight glass. What else?
More oil? Lighter-weight oil because of the low operating
temperatures?

engine-driven fridge
 

Akka wrote:
Larry and all other responders,

Thanks for all the advice. We learned a lot from it.

On the R12/R134a issue: too late. We converted from R12 to R134a years
ago, and the system was working fine with R134a for a long time -- now,
no longer. When we installed the last compressor (marked clearly
'R134a' all over it) last month, we evacuated the system and put in a
new dryer, a big accumulator, and of course, gas. The compressor comes
with oil in it, as does the gas, so we didn't add any more.

I thought when r134a came with PAG oil and POE is usually recomended
for marine use. Maybe I'm wrong ...


When we last charged the system, we had 140 psi on the high side, and
something below atmospheric pressure on the low side, when the system
was running and the plates were cold. When we closed the valve on the
high-pressure side, we got 150 psi on the high side and a full vacuum
on the low side. That was the day before the compressor blew. ...

150 pounds sounds real high to me. My system, a DC powered Tecumseh
compressor, runs at about 95 psi on the high side. This corresponds
to a temp about 20 degrees hotter than the cooling water.

engine-driven fridge
 

On 18 Aug 2006 09:10:24 -0700, "Akka" wrote:

Larry and all other responders,

Thanks for all the advice. We learned a lot from it.

On the R12/R134a issue: too late. We converted from R12 to R134a years
ago, and the system was working fine with R134a for a long time -- now,
no longer. When we installed the last compressor (marked clearly
'R134a' all over it) last month, we evacuated the system and put in a
new dryer, a big accumulator, and of course, gas. The compressor comes
with oil in it, as does the gas, so we didn't add any more.

We put in enough R134a to just barely fill the sight glass -- maybe
that was too much! The expansion valves are on the original factory
settings -- 2 turns closed from fully open. There are 2 low spots
below compressor level in the low-pressure copper tubing: one where the
tube runs under the floorboards from the fridge to the engine
compartment, and one at the bottom of a full loop just before the
compressor.

When we last charged the system, we had 140 psi on the high side, and
something below atmospheric pressure on the low side, when the system
was running and the plates were cold. When we closed the valve on the
high-pressure side, we got 150 psi on the high side and a full vacuum
on the low side. That was the day before the compressor blew. Now it
doesn't draw down to a vacuum (only to about atmospheric pressure) and
doesn't hold the pressure differential at all, after shutoff. So we
figure it's blown.

We didn't hear any knocking sound before the compressor blew but of
course the engine was running at the time and the engine room is
sound-insulated from the cabin. Initially, we did see a light fast
flow of freon across the bottom of the sight glass, then nothing. We
waited 5 minutes, turned off the system, hooked up the gauges, and
discovered we had no pressure -- and a blown compressor.

We don't have a high-pressure valve. We do have an electric clutch,
but in practice it never cuts out because we never run the fridge more
than about an hour at a time, to avoid freezing the lines. We also
check fairly regularly after we've recharged the system with R134a that
we're not frosting the return lines.

So right now I'm concentrating on three possibilities: (1) we may have
overcharged the system, causing fluid to be forced through the
expansion valves and back into the compressor at startup; (2) the
expansion valves might be clogged up and the compressor starved for oil
because of the lack of a return supply; or (3) the new compressor
simply blew -- we discovered that 3 of the nuts on the compressor head
weren't fully tight. But that in itself wouldn't cause the compressor
to fail, would it?

The gunk on the valve filters certainly could have come from
incompatible gasses. We used to get the unit refilled from time to
time by 'professionals' and we're pretty sure at least one of them put
in the wrong gas. That was 2 years ago, but still ...

So, what to do? Apparently, compressors can't be repaired (though it
sure looks like one could replace the head gasket), so we have to buy a
new one. When we do, we'll open up the valves and inspect them,
replace the dryer, vacuum-pump the system, then barely fill it until we
see liquid running across the bottom of the sight glass. What else?
More oil? Lighter-weight oil because of the low operating
temperatures?

You don't fill to a mark - you fill to a pressure for given
temperatures. So for me: the low side looks about 60 psi low.

But what do I know?

Only this - no pressure into the compressor
means no lube oil.

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

engine-driven fridge
 

On 18 Aug 2006 09:10:24 -0700, "Akka" wrote:

So, what to do? Apparently, compressors can't be repaired (though it
sure looks like one could replace the head gasket), so we have to buy a
new one. When we do, we'll open up the valves and inspect them,
replace the dryer, vacuum-pump the system, then barely fill it until we
see liquid running across the bottom of the sight glass. What else?
More oil? Lighter-weight oil because of the low operating
temperatures?

If you can find a good refrigeration expert in your area, I would
highly recommend that you sign him up. In the long run it will be
money well spent. There are a lot of subtle complexities to be
considered, from the size and adjustment of the expansion valve, the
amount of charge, compressor size, purging, leak detection and
protective circuitry. Without all of that working together as a
coordinated system, it will be either unreliable, inefficient or both.
I've had one system completely overhauled, and another replaced in the
last year, learning enough along the way to know it is not a job for
amateurs, even serious amateurs.

engine-driven fridge
 

Akka wrote:
We continue to have problems with our engine-driven refrigeration
system, and wondered if anybody knows what we might be doing wrong.


After reading all the posts so far, I got to admit I do not think I
make enough money and lack the skill to maint a refer system.

So why do you "need" a refer system when most the worlds population
lacks such amenities?

This morning I got up had my oat meal, soy milk, and a few raisins.
Umm........ The soy milk aint milk but the light chocolate soy is
great! Shelf life is about on year. For lunch I think I'll have some
rice, fish, and some veggies. Maybe for dinner a little pasta, veggies,
olive oil, parmesan. Ummmmmm. Oh, and a nice 84 degree F beer. The hops
really stand out over 80 F! Get a good south pacific beer brewed
locally and its got to taste good at 84 degrees. Why? Uhh, who do think
is buying it? Later a snack: fruit salad, pineapple, mango, banana, and
that weird pokey thing that tastes like Juicy Fruit Gum. And speaking
of Hawaiian styled Poke. Nothing like a nice bowl of raw fish. Ummm.

Hey........ just a second! Non of that needed a refer?!?!?

So why do you need a refer? Oh I forgot. For all the visitors when tied
at the dock. I do not do much entertaining. I enjoy sailing. One of the
first things I threw overboard was that cocktail table in the cockpit.
Damn thing kept flapping around when surfing down 20' seas. Also
removed the salon table. Now that was a waste of space. But will be
able to recycle both for various boat projects.

And no I do not think cursing should be "camping in the sixteenth
century."

All a person needs do is cruise, pick up handy ways of living from
people not raised in a Wal-Mart. But if everyone did that our economy
would crash. How much of our GNP is from consumer purchasing????

engine-driven fridge
 

Hi Bob,

From your post it seems as if you are advocating one specific standard
for all cruisers. Perhaps I'm reading in more than you intended, if so
I apologize, but it seems to me that there is no one "true" solution to
how much luxury or hardship one should endure while cruising.

Instead, I would suggest that the would be cruiser treat it as an
economics issue similar to "How much luxury can you afford while on
vacation?" To better illustrate this I'd use two extreme examples, then
work towards the middle.

If you are the Prince of Monaco, then anything short of 5 star hotel
service on a mega yacht is roughing it - but only because he can afford
it - this would mean having unlimited water, ice, fresh food,
communication, entertainment, etc.

If you are dirt poor, than anything that requires power (all of the
above) are beyond one's means and would be sacrificed in order to allow
for the basic costs of cruising. There are many famous boaters who've
written books about sailing with only limited water on a small boat
without a motor or VHS. Joshua Slocum sailed around the world this way,
but I doubt most others would have enjoyed the trip.

In them middle are the rest of us. I'd suggest that one's standards
should reflect what one feels is appropriate for their life style and
economic situation. Perhaps the original poster would be happy without
fresh milk, but perhaps they wouldn't.

It seems unreasonable to me to say "Don't go cruising unless you are
willing to sacrifice". Instead, I'd suggest that one take only those
amenities one can afford.

In understanding exactly how much refrigeration (or any other amenity)
does cost, including maintenance and repair, especially if one is unable
to do this themselves, one can then judge whether an item is
appropriate. That means having a very real budget a priori and placing
all of one's requirements in the perspective of what can be included in it.

Not a definitive answer to the original question, but certainly an
algorithm that can be applied to any cruiser's "luxury" issue.

Cheers,

Robb


Bob wrote:
All a person needs do is cruise, pick up handy ways of living from
people not raised in a Wal-Mart. But if everyone did that our economy
would crash. How much of our GNP is from consumer purchasing????

engine-driven fridge
 

"Akka" wrote in news:1155917423.995950.135660
@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

We put in enough R134a to just barely fill the sight glass -- maybe
that was too much!

Absolutely too much R134a! That's what's happening. The cold plate
overflows with R134a which dumps excess liquid into the compressor. This
blows the hot compressor apart as the liquid instantly turns into high
pressure gas, boiling off inside the little cylinders.

There is a specific amount of R134a to put in every system, just enough to
make the whole cold plate cold, but not enough to dump excess into the
compuressor. You can no longer look at the sight glass and just keep
filling it like the old days.

There's your compressor blown problem.



--
There's amazing intelligence in the Universe.
You can tell because none of them ever called Earth.

engine-driven fridge
 

"Bob" wrote:


Akka wrote:
We continue to have problems with our engine-driven refrigeration
system, and wondered if anybody knows what we might be doing wrong.


After reading all the posts so far, I got to admit I do not think I
make enough money and lack the skill to maint a refer system.

So why do you "need" a refer system when most the worlds population
lacks such amenities?

What does that have to do with anything? Most of the world's
population doesn't have good health care. Some of them don't have
enough food or water. Why should you assume that I would want to be
like most of the world's population?

This morning I got up had my oat meal, soy milk, and a few raisins.
Umm........ The soy milk aint milk but the light chocolate soy is
great! Shelf life is about on year. For lunch I think I'll have some

My husband drinks soy milk because he is lactose intolerant. I
normally have a bagel (untoasted and with no cream cheese) for
breakfast, or we have bacon. But what I have for breakfast and
whether I need refrigeration to have that isn't really any of your
business. And it isn't really helping with this question is it?
Which was NOT how can I get by without refrigeration.

I have enjoyed reading Annie Hill's book - she does without
refrigeration, as do the Pardeys. But I can decide on what to take
from their books by myself.

rice, fish, and some veggies. Maybe for dinner a little pasta, veggies,
olive oil, parmesan. Ummmmmm. Oh, and a nice 84 degree F beer. The hops
really stand out over 80 F! Get a good south pacific beer brewed
locally and its got to taste good at 84 degrees. Why? Uhh, who do think
is buying it? Later a snack: fruit salad, pineapple, mango, banana, and
that weird pokey thing that tastes like Juicy Fruit Gum. And speaking
of Hawaiian styled Poke. Nothing like a nice bowl of raw fish. Ummm.

Hey........ just a second! Non of that needed a refer?!?!?

So why do you need a refer? Oh I forgot. For all the visitors when tied
at the dock. I do not do much entertaining. I enjoy sailing. One of the
first things I threw overboard was that cocktail table in the cockpit.
Damn thing kept flapping around when surfing down 20' seas. Also
removed the salon table. Now that was a waste of space. But will be
able to recycle both for various boat projects.

And no I do not think cursing should be "camping in the sixteenth
century."

All a person needs do is cruise, pick up handy ways of living from
people not raised in a Wal-Mart. But if everyone did that our economy
would crash. How much of our GNP is from consumer purchasing????

engine-driven fridge
 

Rosalie B. wrote:
"Bob" wrote:

But what I have for breakfast and
whether I need refrigeration to have that isn't really any of your
business.

Granny, I do belive you are baiting me into a fight.


And it isn't really helping with this question is it?
Which was NOT how can I get by without refrigeration.


Sure it is. rip it out and free himself of the frustratin and down time
fixing it.


I have enjoyed reading Annie Hill's book - she does without
refrigeration, as do the Pardeys. But I can decide on what to take
from their books by myself.

True, personally I belive the marketing stratigies in the united states
are rather robust and efective. It certainly has you bamboozled.

All a person needs do is cruise, pick up handy ways of living from
people not raised in a Wal-Mart.

Are you still angry from our last conversation?

Benevolent Bob

engine-driven fridge
 

"Bob" wrote:


Rosalie B. wrote:
"Bob" wrote:

But what I have for breakfast and
whether I need refrigeration to have that isn't really any of your
business.

Granny, I do belive you are baiting me into a fight.

I thought that was you baiting me g


And it isn't really helping with this question is it?
Which was NOT how can I get by without refrigeration.


Sure it is. rip it out and free himself of the frustratin and down time
fixing it.

Our boat (which is a very old boat -1979) has a huge fridge
compartment something like 14 cu. ft. Way to big for just the two of
us. But it works, and Bob can keep it running so it isn't a problem
except for figuring out what to fill it up with.

There are all kinds of possibilities for boats - including a portable
12V fridge, or ripping the current fridge out and putting a newer
system in, or doing without. We are going with what we have for now.

But that doesn't help the OP, and I really think that he (or she -
don't remember which) could think of 'rip it out' for himself if it
was something he wanted to do. Possibly his SO doesn't want to do
without refrigeration.

I have enjoyed reading Annie Hill's book - she does without
refrigeration, as do the Pardeys. But I can decide on what to take
from their books by myself.

True, personally I belive the marketing stratigies in the united states
are rather robust and efective. It certainly has you bamboozled.

Marketing strategies for what? The books? The refrigeration? I'm
not buying anything.

All a person needs do is cruise, pick up handy ways of living from
people not raised in a Wal-Mart.

Are you still angry from our last conversation?

Benevolent Bob

I don't shop if I can possibly avoid it - not at Wal-Mart or anywhere
else. I bought Annie Hill's book at one of the first boat shows I
went to after we got our boat, and it made me want a junk rig (which
Bob wouldn't go for of course). Even people who shop at Wal-Mart may
have good ideas on occasion and I'm always on the lookout for such.
(although I'm not going to eat sushi)

engine-driven fridge
 

Bob wrote:

Sure it is. rip it out and free himself of the frustratin and down time
fixing it.


Benevolent Bob

OK...so burn your house down and move into a tepee on the empty lot.
Don't forget to close off the water/sewer lines.

As to trying to convert me to your chosen lifestyle...you sound like a
lot of religious fundamentalists (pick any religion you want). "You
WILL _______ what I tell you to".

engine-driven fridge
 

Steve Thrasher wrote:


OK...so burn your house down and move into a tepee on the empty lot.
Don't forget to close off the water/sewer lines.

As to trying to convert me to your chosen lifestyle...you sound like a
lot of religious fundamentalists (pick any religion you want). "You
WILL _______ what I tell you to".



Hi Thrasher:

Gezz. I did not think eating oatmeal and soymilk would get you so
upset.

I would not like to see your reaction when something important happens.

As far as the whole high v. low tech sailing philosophy you might want
to read some of that drive-by-mainstream-media for an interesting
discusssion on this topic. The article describes how a guy basically
spent his two week island cruise fixing the refer and other stuff. If I
remember right, it was printed in that liberal-tree hugging-commie rag
titled Cruising World a few months back.

Besides, most of us have, at one time or another, watched somebody
toiling over a task that you knew how to do safer, faster, cheaper, and
easier. True...no?

As I said earlier I neither have the money to hire someone to fix a
refer, the knowledge to do it myself, nor the desire to spend any more
time mucking about elbow deep in work.
So I chose to eat oatmeal and soymilk, raw or boiled fish, cabbage,
carrots, onions, pasta, and drink crisp 80 degree beer. Travel light-
Travel easy-Travel fast.

So I'll end here and hope that somebody can help the guy fix his
refrigerator. Personally I don't have one. I have better things to do
than fix stuff on a boat.

Bob

engine-driven fridge
 

Alas, most of our problems have been caused by 'professionals' and
'experts'. I'd guess we've put at least $5000 into this system over
the last couple of years, most of it in $50/hour or more payments for
guys who claimed to be experts standing around waiting for the plates
to cool. And what we got for it in the end was a system that ran for 4
weeks before breaking. One guy put in a new high-tech gas that was, of
course, incompatible with the R134a oil already in the system. (That
cost us a bundle to put straight.) Another simply removed the
accumulator, saying that nowadays that's no longer needed (another
bundle, including paying for 2 new compressors in as many days.) That's
when we decided to take over, even if we don't know that much. How can
it possibly cost us more than the experts do?

And of course, now we've got you-all to keep us on the straight and
narrow. :-)

Rob

engine-driven fridge
 

On 24 Aug 2006 09:56:02 -0700, "Akka" wrote:

Alas, most of our problems have been caused by 'professionals' and
'experts'.

If you really have to do it yourself I'd recomend that you start with
a copy of Nigel Calder's book: "Refrigeration for Pleasureboats:
Installation, Maintenance and Repair"

You can get it from Amazon.com

http://tinyurl.com/fa693

You will also need a set of pressure guages, vacuum pump, leak
detector, temperature guages, IR temperature gun, small vacuum cleaner
and a few other specialized tools/supplys.

Most of the tools and supplys are available from Grainger:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/start.shtml.

engine-driven fridge
 

On 24 Aug 2006 10:13:38 -0700, "Akka" wrote:

And my wife will be SO grateful!

You bet, and that's important. :-)

engine-driven fridge
 

Thanks for the advice and links, Wayne! As it happens, we already have
Nigel Calder's book, which we always pick up and pore over any time we
have a new mechanical or electrical problem. It's incredibly complete
and useful -- can't imagine how we (or any other creuisers) could do
without it. We definitely read the section on refrigeration, and
learned a bundle.

Unfortunately, that appears to be what got us into our current problem,
as Calder was (I guess) writing with R12 in mind. It's because of him
that we filled the system until the sight glass was full, and
apparently overcharged. Also, he gives a table for ambient temp vs.
refrigerant pressure for R12 but nothing for R134a -- and it turns out
you can't use his table for R134a, even as a SWAG.

We finally bought the gauges but didn't think a 220V vacuum pump was a
worthwhile investment as we'll be returning soon to the 110V world. If
we open the system, we have to borrow or rent somebody else's pump. We
judge compressor and return-line temps by feel -- in the former case,
if you can touch it without burning your fingers it's not too hot, and
in the latter if it's cold but not frosting it's not too cold.

Rob

engine-driven fridge
 

My edition of Calder's book (printed 1994) has the r134a table and
several other hints in the front as an "Ozone alert and update." You
can certainly find a table on the Internet:
http://dodgeram.org/tech/repair/HVAC/R134a.htm

I'm not sure measuring the high pressure side temp by touch works
well, because you'll be reading the temp of the compressor itself. My
pressure line is pretty hot, but the guage says the temp is about 90
degrees (about 20 degrees above the cooling water).

You might consider getting (or at least looking at) the latest edition
of Calder's larger book, The Mechanical and Electrical Manual. It
has revised advise on refrigeration, based on the latest technology.

Akka wrote:
Thanks for the advice and links, Wayne! As it happens, we already have
Nigel Calder's book, which we always pick up and pore over any time we
have a new mechanical or electrical problem. It's incredibly complete
and useful -- can't imagine how we (or any other creuisers) could do
without it. We definitely read the section on refrigeration, and
learned a bundle.

Unfortunately, that appears to be what got us into our current problem,
as Calder was (I guess) writing with R12 in mind. It's because of him
that we filled the system until the sight glass was full, and
apparently overcharged. Also, he gives a table for ambient temp vs.
refrigerant pressure for R12 but nothing for R134a -- and it turns out
you can't use his table for R134a, even as a SWAG.

We finally bought the gauges but didn't think a 220V vacuum pump was a
worthwhile investment as we'll be returning soon to the 110V world. If
we open the system, we have to borrow or rent somebody else's pump. We
judge compressor and return-line temps by feel -- in the former case,
if you can touch it without burning your fingers it's not too hot, and
in the latter if it's cold but not frosting it's not too cold.

Rob


--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

engine-driven fridge
 

On 25 Aug 2006 00:38:34 -0700, "Akka" wrote:

Unfortunately, that appears to be what got us into our current problem,
as Calder was (I guess) writing with R12 in mind.

Yes, and every refrigerant has different properties.

It's because of him
that we filled the system until the sight glass was full, and
apparently overcharged. Also, he gives a table for ambient temp vs.
refrigerant pressure for R12 but nothing for R134a -- and it turns out
you can't use his table for R134a, even as a SWAG.

That is correct.


We finally bought the gauges but didn't think a 220V vacuum pump was a
worthwhile investment as we'll be returning soon to the 110V world. If
we open the system, we have to borrow or rent somebody else's pump. We
judge compressor and return-line temps by feel -- in the former case,
if you can touch it without burning your fingers it's not too hot, and
in the latter if it's cold but not frosting it's not too cold.

You absolutely can not properly adjust the system by feel. I'm
fortunate to have a neighbor who makes his living as a refrigeration
specialist. He has a detailed set of tables for each type of
refrigerant and uses electronic temperature guages in conjunction with
the tables and pressure guages to adjust the TXV. I used another
specialist in the north east to install the freezer. He used exactly
the same approach.

engine-driven fridge
 

That's amazing. Not one of the 6 or so 'experts' we've had on board
(even back in the States) measured temperature.

Live and learn.

Rob

engine-driven fridge
 

Gee, we have the same edition of Calder's book that you do, obtained
_last year_ from Bluewater Books, and there are no such tables there.
Thanks for the helpful link, though.

Cheers,

Rob

engine-driven fridge
 

Akka wrote:
Gee, we have the same edition of Calder's book that you do, obtained
_last year_ from Bluewater Books, and there are no such tables there.
Thanks for the helpful link, though.

Cheers,

Rob

Sounds like you might have gotten very old stock. I got mine maybe 6
years ago, but if I look at Amazon it shows up in the Table of
Contents for the version they currently ship. You might look on page ix.




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

engine-driven fridge
 

On Sun, 03 Sep 2006 18:13:58 -0400, Jeff wrote:

Sounds like you might have gotten very old stock. I got mine maybe 6
years ago, but if I look at Amazon it shows up in the Table of
Contents for the version they currently ship. You might look on page ix.

Yes, I have the same version. In my book the table for R134a is
actually on the back side of page ix, just prior to page 1.

engine-driven fridge
 

the black stuff you see is pieces of the compressor more then likely. The
low side pressure to my knowledge should be just that low side pressure not
a vacuum. You only get vacuum when you suck the system down empty. Are you
adding oil to the system when you install a new compressor? sounds like you
might be running low on oil and causing the compressor to seize up thus the
black material in the filter. It;s important to make sure you have the right
amount of refrigeration oil to lubricate the internal workings of the
compressor. Do you have a low pressure cutoff switch in the system? this
will protect the compressor by not allowing it to turn on if the system is
low on freon.
If you have the proper amount of freon in the system I would think the sight
glass would show it almost imediately.
You need to vacum the system and replace the drier the expansion valve along
with the compressor and add oil to it when you replace the compressor.
I'm not a certified ac tech but I've worked on many an ac system in my own
auto's and home to know about them but don't take my word for sure I'm just
offering you some idea's that might be useful knowledge to You.
"Akka" wrote in message
oups.com...
We continue to have problems with our engine-driven refrigeration
system, and wondered if anybody knows what we might be doing wrong. We
keep on blowing up compressors -- either they start to leak after a
couple of months use, or they fail (i.e., no longer bring down the
low-side pressure to a vacuum). We know it's not from 'slugging' ice,
because we routinely monitor the state of the return line about 4 feet
from the compressor, and it's never frozen. When the compressors leak,
we naturally don't know it until the fridge doesn't cool anymore, when
we look at the sight glass and see it's empty. This entails running
the system for 5 minutes or more, empty, because that's how long it
takes for liquid to appear in the sight glass when the system is full.
Is that a long enough time to ruin the compressor? The last time we
opened the system up, we found some black residue blocking one of the
filters at the expansion valve. Any idea how dirt could have gotten
into the system? Maybe from a compressor going bad? How do you clean
it all out?

engine-driven fridge
 

I forgot to mention you need to flush out the system when you vacuum it
before you install the new components. Shops usually have a pump they flush
oil through the system with and then suck it out this gets all the metal
particles that came from the compressor out so they don't foul anything new.
"Akka" wrote in message
oups.com...
We continue to have problems with our engine-driven refrigeration
system, and wondered if anybody knows what we might be doing wrong. We
keep on blowing up compressors -- either they start to leak after a
couple of months use, or they fail (i.e., no longer bring down the
low-side pressure to a vacuum). We know it's not from 'slugging' ice,
because we routinely monitor the state of the return line about 4 feet
from the compressor, and it's never frozen. When the compressors leak,
we naturally don't know it until the fridge doesn't cool anymore, when
we look at the sight glass and see it's empty. This entails running
the system for 5 minutes or more, empty, because that's how long it
takes for liquid to appear in the sight glass when the system is full.
Is that a long enough time to ruin the compressor? The last time we
opened the system up, we found some black residue blocking one of the
filters at the expansion valve. Any idea how dirt could have gotten
into the system? Maybe from a compressor going bad? How do you clean
it all out?