Water heater leak?
 

I woke up last night to the sound of the fresh water. I'd left the
switch on and it started in the middle of the night. The pump was
running dry and the water tank was empty. There isn't a
corresponding amount of water in the bilge and I couldn't find any
sign of a leak so I'm trying to figure out where the water went.

The pump has always cycled about every 10 minutes so I've been
thinking there must be a small leak somewhere but I never could find
it. We have the standard minimalist set up with a Jabsco PAR pump and
pressure switch and no accumulator or tank.

We have an Atlantic Marine hot water heater with the engine cooling
water running through it. One possibility is that the heating coil in
the tank corroded through and the water is leaking into the engine
cooling system and down the exhaust. The big concern here would be
filling up the muffler and then having water back up into the cylinder
with the open exhaust valve.

Has anyone heard of these heating coils developing leaks? Ours was a
fresh water boat until last season so it doesn't seem likely but it's
the only place I can think of the water going.

I'll turn the engine by hand or check for a high water level in the
muffler before starting the engine but I'd like to know if there is a
precedent for a leak in the heater coil

--

Roger Long

Water heater leak?
 

I don't know about water tank leaks, but I did once have a leak in the
exit hose which was plastic instead of the appropriate metal leader.
A few observations:

The pump shouldn't cycle at all. Normally, ours is tight and never
cycles, and the accumulator will even hold a bit of pressure after the
pump has been off for a week. (I'm actually headed to the boat this
morning to track down a leak suspected in the shower faucet.)

An accumulator is a very nice addition and can be added anywhere in
the system.

You should have a few shutoff valves in the system. In particular,
before the heater/hot water system is handy. Also, cockpit showers
are a weak point and should be isolated.



Roger Long wrote:
I woke up last night to the sound of the fresh water. I'd left the
switch on and it started in the middle of the night. The pump was
running dry and the water tank was empty. There isn't a
corresponding amount of water in the bilge and I couldn't find any
sign of a leak so I'm trying to figure out where the water went.

The pump has always cycled about every 10 minutes so I've been
thinking there must be a small leak somewhere but I never could find
it. We have the standard minimalist set up with a Jabsco PAR pump and
pressure switch and no accumulator or tank.

We have an Atlantic Marine hot water heater with the engine cooling
water running through it. One possibility is that the heating coil in
the tank corroded through and the water is leaking into the engine
cooling system and down the exhaust. The big concern here would be
filling up the muffler and then having water back up into the cylinder
with the open exhaust valve.

Has anyone heard of these heating coils developing leaks? Ours was a
fresh water boat until last season so it doesn't seem likely but it's
the only place I can think of the water going.

I'll turn the engine by hand or check for a high water level in the
muffler before starting the engine but I'd like to know if there is a
precedent for a leak in the heater coil

Water heater leak?
 

Jeff wrote in news:S7adnfFbO5U-
:

The pump shouldn't cycle at all. Normally, ours is tight and never
cycles, and the accumulator will even hold a bit of pressure after the
pump has been off for a week. (I'm actually headed to the boat this
morning to track down a leak suspected in the shower faucet.)



Yeah, but Roger has no accumulator to provide pressure to the system.
His is always hydrolocked making the pump cycle something awful unless
the faucets are wide open.

Roger you need an accumulator and will be amazed how much smoother the
water flow is and how little that pump cycles, saving the expensive pump
in the process. Make sure the T in the hose is on the BOTTOM of the
tank. The tank is supposed to have an air bubble. That's what makes it
work. I find them install upside down, even by boatyards who should know
better.

Your leak shouldn't be hard to find. Are you sure your bilge pump just
didn't empty the water out of the bilge, like it's supposed to do, when
the little water tank emptied?

If you suspect the heat exchanger of being the source of the leak, it's
easy to find, too. Just pull the hoses off the hot water tank from the
engine and let the tubing drain. Turn on the pump with the water tank
refilled and watch the fittings on the water tank to see if water comes
out. I doubt this is your problem. Is your engine cooling system all
raw water?? In a heat exchanger cooled engine, the hot water tank is
plumbed into the engine side full of antifreeze, not the seawater side
which doesn't get that hot. If you pumped the engine full of water from
a cracked hot water heater in a seawater cooled system, I'm sure it would
have flooded the engine exhaust by now.

More suspect is all that plastic tubing throughout the boat we call a
water system. It splits and cracks and stupids at the boatyard forget to
put hose clamps on it eventually leading to a hose coming loose to make a
mess for the bilge pump to clean up.

Just fill the water tank and turn the pump back on....should be easy to
spot if it emptied a full water tank before. Without an accumulator, and
no place to store pressure the accumulator provides, your water system
pump will cycle every few minutes to an hour....depending on the
hysteresis of the pressure switch and how much water leaks back through
the pump flapper valves, those little rubber disks they use for valves in
any water pump.

That cycling drives me crazy without an accumulator. How do you stand
it?

Water heater leak?
 

Roger Long wrote:
I woke up last night to the sound of the fresh water. I'd left the
switch on and it started in the middle of the night. The pump was
running dry and the water tank was empty. There isn't a
corresponding amount of water in the bilge and I couldn't find any
sign of a leak so I'm trying to figure out where the water went.

I don't think your water tank is empty...I think the diaphragm in your
water pump has failed.


The pump has always cycled about every 10 minutes so I've been
thinking there must be a small leak somewhere but I never could find
it.

As a diaphragm starts to fail, the pump will start to cycle for no
reason (there is a reason: a drop in pressure caused by the leaking
diaphragm)...at first just a brief "brrp" once or twice a day, then as
the tear in the diaphragm gets bigger, more and more frequently and
longer--and will take longer to prime when you first come aboard... till
finally the pump runs continuously without pumping any water.

I'll bet money that's what's happened. All you have to do to confirm it
is check the water level in your tank.

If your heat exchanger were leaking, you wouldn't have water in the
engine, you'd have coolant in your water.
--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

Water heater leak?
 

"Peggie Hall" wrote

I'll bet money that's what's happened. All you have to do to confirm
it is check the water level in your tank.

The tank was bone dry.

If your heat exchanger were leaking, you wouldn't have water in the
engine, you'd have coolant in your water.

It's raw water cooled so all we would detect is the salt.
--

Roger Long

Water heater leak?
 

Roger Long wrote:
"Peggie Hall" wrote

I'll bet money that's what's happened. All you have to do to confirm
it is check the water level in your tank.

The tank was bone dry.

My money is still on the pump diaphragm. If you have a leak, the water
has to be somewhere. You wouldn't be the first person to think there was
more in the tank than you thought and ran it dry.

You said you woke up the sound of the fresh water...did you mean the
sound of water running somewhere? Or just the hammering of the water pump?

If your heat exchanger were leaking, you wouldn't have water in the
engine, you'd have coolant in your water.

It's raw water cooled so all we would detect is the salt.

Ok, SALT in your fresh water then. :)

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

Water heater leak?
 

refill you tank and use either a pool dye (best) or food coloring... I
bet you find the bilge water to have changed color. Then you just need
to find the evaporated color stain and is should lead you to the leak.

I would refill it once more and try it without the dye first... that
will confirm if Peggy's theory is correct without staining your boat...



Peggie Hall wrote:

Roger Long wrote:

"Peggie Hall" wrote

I'll bet money that's what's happened. All you have to do to confirm
it is check the water level in your tank.


The tank was bone dry.


My money is still on the pump diaphragm. If you have a leak, the water
has to be somewhere. You wouldn't be the first person to think there was
more in the tank than you thought and ran it dry.

You said you woke up the sound of the fresh water...did you mean the
sound of water running somewhere? Or just the hammering of the water pump?

If your heat exchanger were leaking, you wouldn't have water in the
engine, you'd have coolant in your water.


It's raw water cooled so all we would detect is the salt.


Ok, SALT in your fresh water then. :)

Water heater leak?
 

I found the leak. Very small and didn't cause the problem on it's
own. It did however, cause the water tank to draw down faster than I
expected. It must have been just on the verge of sucking air when I
when I went to sleep. Now I know where that little wet trickle I
thought was collected condensation was coming from.

Next on my to do list, a way to check the fresh water tank level more
easily.

The pump is dry as a bone around the diaphragm, even after pumping
enough to fill the holding tank 3/4 full with fresh water to flush it.
The sink drain "T" into the head intake line works great although it
means a lot of head pumping.

The leak is in a metal to metal joint at the cold water inlet to the
heater. The drip runs down the hose to a low spot so it isn't easy to
spot.

--

Roger Long

Water heater leak?
 

Roger Long wrote:
I found the leak.

Shot my theory in the tail. :)

Very small and didn't cause the problem on it's
own.

Or did it...? Two problems, maybe?

The pump is dry as a bone around the diaphragm...

A failing/failed diaphragm wouldn't cause the pump to leak...it creates
an air leak in the pump that causes the pressure to drop, which turns on
the pump. As the tear in the diaphragm gets bigger, the pressure drops
more often and lower, causing the pump to cycle more frequently and
longer...till finally the pump can no longer prime.

even after pumping
enough to fill the holding tank 3/4 full with fresh water to flush it.

???...holding tank or water tank?

The sink drain "T" into the head intake line works great although it
means a lot of head pumping.

Most likely because the toilet is pulling air through the sink that's
preventing from priming. Put a plug in the sink when flushing with sea
water...when flushing with water from the the sink, the sink needs to be
at least half full. Just running water down the sink drain won't work
'cuz the toilet will pull more air than water.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

Water heater leak?
 

"Peggie Hall" wrote


A failing/failed diaphragm wouldn't cause the pump to leak...it
creates an air leak in the pump ....

Ah, light dawns! It's harder to make things vacuum tight than pressure
tight and much, much, harder than watertight. Developing porosity in
the rubber would do exactly what you describe.

The sink drain "T" into the head intake line works great although
it means a lot of head pumping.

Most likely because the toilet is pulling air through the sink
that's preventing from priming. Put a plug in the sink when flushing
with sea water...when flushing with water from the sink, the sink
needs to be at least half full. Just running water down the sink
drain won't work 'cuz the toilet will pull more air than water.

No, it works perfectly in normal head mode. There is a valve in the
line from the sink to the head intake line.

What I meant by lots of head pumping was filling a 13 gallon holding
tank by pumping the head. I really shouldn't have posted that point
because it only applies to our very funky marina where there is no
water hose bib within reach of the pump out station. I tried filling
the holding tank by pumping fresh water through the system to avoid
motoring back to the dock to fill with the hose through the deck pump
out the way any normal person would. Now that I've done that once,
motoring back and redocking doesn't seem like as much work as it did
befo)

--

Roger Long

Water heater leak?
 

Although, if the pump diaphragm is starting to leak air on the back
stroke, wouldn't air bubbles or froth start to show up in the water
stream? I haven't seen any yet.

--

Roger Long

Water heater leak?
 

Roger Long wrote:
The sink drain "T" into the head intake line works great although
it means a lot of head pumping.

What I meant by lots of head pumping was filling a 13 gallon holding
tank by pumping the head.

You--and most other boat owners too--need to learn to use the "dry" mode
to do more than pump the last of the water out of the bowl. Few people
realize that any manual toilet that's working anywhere near factory
specs can move bowl contents up to 6 linear feet (further if you get
some help from gravity, at least 4' vertically, in the dry mode. You can
cut your flush water by at least 50%, doubling the number of flushes
your tank can hold if you'll do this:

Pump only 2-3x in the wet mode to wet the bowl ahead of use...or add 2-3
cupfuls from the sink ahead of solids. Switch to dry. After use, pump
enough times in the dry mode to move the bowl contents to the
tank...then switch to wet only long enough to rinse the bowl...and back
to dry to push the rinse water through to the tank.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

Water heater leak?
 

Roger Long wrote:
Although, if the pump diaphragm is starting to leak air on the back
stroke, wouldn't air bubbles or froth start to show up in the water
stream? I haven't seen any yet.

Nope...and you won't. 'Cuz it's not PULLING any air into the line, it's
just a slight air leak that breaks the prime.



--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

Water heater leak?
 

"Peggie Hall" wrote tank by pumping the head.

You--and most other boat owners too--need to learn to use the "dry"
mode

It does work and I use a variation of this method. The variation is
only because our Groco, at least, requires more wet strokes to move
paper to the bottom As soon as stuff is out of sight, I switch to
dry.

At the end of any weekend trip or day sail with lots of guests, I do a
long wet flush from empty to be sure the line is clear.

In view of the difficulty most guests have with the regular method,
even with printed instructions, I think I'll just put up with more
frequent trips to the pump out instead of trying to add another lever
sequence.

BTW tightening up that hose clamp has brought the water off pump
cycling of my fresh water pressure set down to only about once every
2 -3 hours. I can't fix the last little drip until I move the pump so
I can get at a metal joint on the tank that is weeping slightly but
it's quite livable. I'll do that when I install the accumulator tank
I bought yesterday.

--

Roger Long

Water heater leak?
 

"Roger Long" wrote in news:a1Bsg.19945$O35.10662
@twister.nyroc.rr.com:

A failing/failed diaphragm wouldn't cause the pump to leak...it
creates an air leak in the pump ....

Ah, light dawns! It's harder to make things vacuum tight than pressure
tight and much, much, harder than watertight. Developing porosity in
the rubber would do exactly what you describe.


The little rubber valves holding back the pressurized water from going back
into the supply tank also leak. They don't fill the bilge and nothing
leaks out of the pump as it goes back into the tank.

That damned buzzing of the pump coming on every 2 minutes for no apparent
reason while you're laying there thinking about all the things that can
sink the boat while you sleep just drives me crazy....trying to get to
sleep in the first place.

Same goes for the stupid electronic bilge pumps that come on to see if
something is there to pump all night....

"Why did that come on? I better get up and check, again."....and
again...and....nuts.

Water heater leak?
 

Roger Long wrote:
I woke up last night to the sound of the fresh water. I'd left the
switch on and it started in the middle of the night. The pump was
running dry and the water tank was empty.

Hi All:

Help me out here. Why do I need a preasure water system for my
drinking/galley water.

For that matter why a water heater? Yea I know to have hot water. So
why need hot water?

Water heater leak?
 

Bob wrote:
Roger Long wrote:
I woke up last night to the sound of the fresh water. I'd left the
switch on and it started in the middle of the night. The pump was
running dry and the water tank was empty.

Hi All:

Help me out here. Why do I need a preasure water system for my
drinking/galley water.

For that matter why a water heater? Yea I know to have hot water. So
why need hot water?


You don't need either but you (or others) may want them.

Personally, I enjoy dropping the hook after a long sail and taking a
nice hot shower before hitting the sack.

YMMV

--AG

Water heater leak?
 

"Bob" wrote
Hi All:

Help me out here. Why do I need a pressure water system for my
drinking/galley water.

For that matter why a water heater? Yea I know to have hot water. So
why need hot water?


Because it came with the boat and now I've been softened, corrupted.
Gosh, it was so much fun to be hunched naked over a bucket of tipid
water in the cockpit on a cool Maine morning with a sponge. A proper
hot shower is sort of like GPS, it takes all the fun and charm out of
cruising but, once you've tried it, you can't give it up.

Besides, it's so much fun to see the faces of visitors when I say,
"Look, hot running water!"

--

Roger Long

Water heater leak?
 

I found the leak. The PO (with typical optimism) put the brass hose
barb fitting into a brass elbow without any tape or sealant. The seep
ran down the hose to where the shelf the pump sits on was always damp.
Since it was the cold water hose, I thought it was condensation on the
hose.

Once that was tightened up, pump cycling dropped to maybe once in the
night before I installed the accumulator.

I could have lived without the accumulator after fixing the leak. The
water flow was fairly steady. It's nice though to be able to fill a
cup or brush my teeth without the pump coming on. It's also nice to
be able to get a usable amount of water when the pressure pump switch
is off. I'm not sure I would have paid the sixty bucks of materials
and my three hours work if I could have done a direct comparison
beforehand but it's nice now that it's done.

I woke up this morning and the water flowed the usual amount without
the pump coming on so the system is now completely tight.

--

Roger Long

Water heater leak?
 

If the pump cycles even once, there's still a leak somewhere,but it
might not be enough to bother with. After I found my leak on Tuesday,
I left the boat with the pump turned off, and I was still able to draw
a pint or two off of the accumulator a day later.


Roger Long wrote:
I found the leak. The PO (with typical optimism) put the brass hose
barb fitting into a brass elbow without any tape or sealant. The seep
ran down the hose to where the shelf the pump sits on was always damp.
Since it was the cold water hose, I thought it was condensation on the
hose.

Once that was tightened up, pump cycling dropped to maybe once in the
night before I installed the accumulator.

I could have lived without the accumulator after fixing the leak. The
water flow was fairly steady. It's nice though to be able to fill a
cup or brush my teeth without the pump coming on. It's also nice to
be able to get a usable amount of water when the pressure pump switch
is off. I'm not sure I would have paid the sixty bucks of materials
and my three hours work if I could have done a direct comparison
beforehand but it's nice now that it's done.

I woke up this morning and the water flowed the usual amount without
the pump coming on so the system is now completely tight.

Water heater leak?
 

In article .com,
"Bob" wrote:


Roger Long wrote:
I woke up last night to the sound of the fresh water. I'd left the
switch on and it started in the middle of the night. The pump was
running dry and the water tank was empty.

Hi All:

Help me out here. Why do I need a preasure water system for my
drinking/galley water.

For that matter why a water heater? Yea I know to have hot water. So
why need hot water?

it is obvious that "Bob" doesn't cruise with Ladies...... WomenFolk
demand water, and Hot water is what "Bob will be in, if he tries to
cruise around a lot, with women aboard, and no running water.......

Water heater leak?
 

You wrote:
it is obvious that "Bob" doesn't cruise with Ladies...... WomenFolk
demand water, and Hot water is what "Bob will be in, if he tries to
cruise around a lot, with women aboard, and no running water.......

I gave up on "ladies" a long time ago. I prefer women now.
You know the ones..... ex peace corps volunteers with harry arm pits
and a passion for adventure.

But I do agree, ot water is ablessing in anything up from N38.
Bob