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boat AC/heatpump
I am told that some boat owners use a residential style of heat pump with
great success. Any thoughts? What brands are best for marine grade? Is this a project that the average boat owner can handle? The cost to go with a residential is much less but I am concerned that the marine products would be better. thanks for help, marshall |
boat AC/heatpump
Almost all residential heat pumps are air cooled/heated. Marine units are
seawater cooled/heated. David |
boat AC/heatpump
"MarshallE" wrote in
: I am told that some boat owners use a residential style of heat pump with great success. Any thoughts? Some of them use window air conditioners on the deck. Is that what you mean? What brands are best for marine grade? Is this a project that the average boat owner can handle? "Marine Grade" just means it came from a marine store at 10 times the price. Marine AC units use the same compressors and electrical connections as any other refridgeration units. It's mostly bull****, except marine installations INSIST on putting the hot electric fan motor and really hot compressor INSIDE the air conditioned space where it will make the most noise all the time, keeping you awake, and create the most inefficient air conditioning system in the process because the unit expends a LOT of its Btu capacity cooling ITSELF, pumping its OWN heat out of the boat before it can pump your heat out of the boat. Stupid, isn't it? Any boat owner who can do basic electrical wiring and rubber hose plumbing, which I figure is about 30% of the owners in any marina, maybe less where the lawyers park their big yachts, can accomplish. Testing is easy. Hand them a two cell flashlight, two D cell batteries and a flashlight bulb. Tell them to make it light. The only thing you really have to concern yourself with is: 1) Electrical wiring to the AC panel, preferably to the NEC would be nice, but not necessary. 2) Installation of a seawater electric pump, strainer, and hooking them up to an underwater through-hull source of seawater, preferably not shared with anything else in the boat, low enough so the damned thing will SELF PRIME without tearing the hoses apart to prime it under the V- berth every time you come home from sailing heeled over so that fitting comes out of the water and it all drains out letting air in....grrr...nuts. 3) Plumbing in flexible duct work INSULATED so it doesn't sweat inside the cabinets it passes through rotting all the wood inside the cabinets to hell a couple of years from now. The cabinet the AC unit sits in will be like a swamp because it constantly drips condensate water, just like at home only 5 times as much in the sea air. That cabinet is like a swamp as soon as you shut it down and the stagnant water in the drain pan that never drains right makes it like a swamp in there as the hot fan motor and hot, hot compressor raise the cabinet temperature after shutdown to 150F for a couple of hours....(c; The cost to go with a residential is much less but I am concerned that the marine products would be better. I have a terrible time convincing them, but the BEST solution I ever installed was a nice Coleman 18000 Btu RV rooftop HEAT PUMP over the main cabin hatch with the Coleman Easy Start Kit already installed. All the noise from the AC, the noisy compressor, the noisy fan motor, the condensate swamp water and everything except the small inside control panel and distribution outlets fore and aft that stick down in the cabin about 2 inches is OUTSIDE WHERE YOU'RE SLEEPING! Even the smallest RV unit will make a boat MUCH colder, MUCH quicker than a "marine grade" unit twice its capacity. You'll freeze your ass if you turn it wide open...(c; The "Easy Start Kit", not available on "marine grade" units I've ever seen, starts the compressor SLOWLY, without the 30A starting surge current every time the compressor comes on. This allows you to run the little rooftop unit with a PORTABLE or SMALL INBOARD generator! How cool that is anchored up a creek on a hot, sweltering night full of Florida mosquitoes the Manatees are afraid to surface under! One of our old neighbors had a 40' catamaran sloop. He nearly died while trying to figure out how and where to put a Marine Air that still left room for a few cans of food and a plate or two in one of his pontoons....er, ah, belay that, I'm supposed to call them "hulls", not pontoons. He asked me what I thought and I put the Coleman buzz in his ear over that really nice skylight hatch that was just sitting there cooking anyone in the sunlight that sat under its cheap, clear-plastic cover. He tried it. He like to froze to death the first night as he forgot to turn the thermostat down and woke up at 2AM to a boat only 47F internal temperature...(c; If you think it looks just awful sitting there on the deck, have your custom canvas shop make an anchor or ship's wheel logo cover for it that's padded on top. Ignoring the snobs' comments about it being a trailer air conditioner, after seeing them cursing those biting little centipedes that filled up their sea strainers causing THEIR professional "marine-grade" AC to overpressure and trip out 3 days ago, and tell them it's a "custom made deck seat" with ship's wheel upholstery....(c; Oh, get the model that you can control the airflow out each of the outlet ports individually. That way you can force more air one way where there's more heat and not into the V-berth freezing her you-know-what during sex...not a good thing. PERMANENTLY MOUNTED with the included hardware, that makes it MUCH better than those damned portable marine units you have to lug around every time the boat moves. Look on top of the tugboats and trawlers! They use them because they WORK. The whole thing costs just a little more than the seawater pump in the "marine grade" thing in the closet. So, when it finally rusts out...you just BUY A WHOLE NEW ONE. It takes YEARS on a shrimp boat with NO MAINTENANCE WHATSOEVER.... |
boat AC/heatpump
I looked on the web and I can see that Coleman makes up to a 27KBTU
12/120v rooftop AC for rv's but I couldn't find a source. Any suggestions? Mike Larry wrote - in part: I have a terrible time convincing them, but the BEST solution I ever installed was a nice Coleman 18000 Btu RV rooftop HEAT PUMP over the main cabin hatch with the Coleman Easy Start Kit already installed. All the noise from the AC, the noisy compressor, the noisy fan motor, the condensate swamp water and everything except the small inside control panel and distribution outlets fore and aft that stick down in the cabin about 2 inches is OUTSIDE WHERE YOU'RE SLEEPING! Even the smallest RV unit will make a boat MUCH colder, MUCH quicker than a "marine grade" unit twice its capacity. You'll freeze your ass if you turn it wide open...(c; The "Easy Start Kit", not available on "marine grade" units I've ever seen, starts the compressor SLOWLY, without the 30A starting surge current every time the compressor comes on. This allows you to run the little rooftop unit with a PORTABLE or SMALL INBOARD generator! How cool that is anchored up a creek on a hot, sweltering night full of Florida mosquitoes the Manatees are afraid to surface under! ---------- Look on top of the tugboats and trawlers! They use them because they WORK. The whole thing costs just a little more than the seawater pump in the "marine grade" thing in the closet. So, when it finally rusts out...you just BUY A WHOLE NEW ONE. It takes YEARS on a shrimp boat with NO MAINTENANCE WHATSOEVER.... |
boat AC/heatpump
"Roger Long" wrote in news:zovlg.18648$W97.2222
@twister.nyroc.rr.com: I put this post quite well up on my mental list of the ten best posts ever to the forum. It's not really my original idea. Every shrimp boat in Charleston has one on their pilot house....tugboats and pushboats, too. It just makes good economic sense and is much more efficient..... .....not to mention you DON'T LOSE STORAGE SPACE WHERE ALL THE DAMNED DUCTS GO! |
boat AC/heatpump
"Mike" wrote in news:1150732613.625799.66240
@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com: I looked on the web and I can see that Coleman makes up to a 27KBTU 12/120v rooftop AC for rv's but I couldn't find a source. Any suggestions? Somewhere near you is a motorhome/travel trailer superstore. They all have them. Google search for "Coleman RV air conditioner" and find thousands. |
boat AC/heatpump
I do find thousands of 110v AC's, but no 12 or 24v AC's.
Mike Larry wrote: "Mike" wrote in news:1150732613.625799.66240 @c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com: I looked on the web and I can see that Coleman makes up to a 27KBTU 12/120v rooftop AC for rv's but I couldn't find a source. Any suggestions? Somewhere near you is a motorhome/travel trailer superstore. They all have them. Google search for "Coleman RV air conditioner" and find thousands. |
boat AC/heatpump
Mike wrote:
I do find thousands of 110v AC's, but no 12 or 24v AC's. Mike Larry wrote: "Mike" wrote in news:1150732613.625799.66240 : I looked on the web and I can see that Coleman makes up to a 27KBTU 12/120v rooftop AC for rv's but I couldn't find a source. Any suggestions? Somewhere near you is a motorhome/travel trailer superstore. They all have them. Google search for "Coleman RV air conditioner" and find thousands. Do you realize how many amps a 6000 btu air conditioner would require at 12 volts? Hey Larry, they don't just take heaters to the boat. krj |
boat AC/heatpump
krj wrote in news:lbVlg.506$Ju2.28
@bignews1.bellsouth.net: Do you realize how many amps a 6000 btu air conditioner would require at 12 volts? Hey Larry, they don't just take heaters to the boat. krj Yeah, but they're not smiling luggin' a 12V AC down the dock. Hmm....My 8000 window unit in the computer room runs about 800 watts..... 800 watts divided by 14 volts (to be fairer) still equals a CONSTANT DRAIN of over 57 amps! Man, we're back trying to figure out where to stow these 3 ton submarine cells, again, to run it all!.... Nope...A/C is NEVER gonna run off 12V! "But you sold me a 4,000 watt inverter, didn't you?"......(c; http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs...oducte/10001/- 1/10001/139948/0/0/inverter/All_2/mode+matchallpartial/0/0 "Only $US3,299.99" at Waste Marine! |
boat AC/heatpump
Larry wrote: Hmm....My 8000 window unit in the computer room runs about 800 watts..... 800 watts divided by 14 volts (to be fairer) still equals a CONSTANT DRAIN of over 57 amps! Man, we're back trying to figure out where to stow these 3 ton submarine cells, again, to run it all!.... Nope...A/C is NEVER gonna run off 12V! Hmm... 3 ton submarine cells. Too bad we couldn't talk the manufacturers into making my 8500 lb keel into one big lead acid battery ;-) Don W. |
boat AC/heatpump
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boat AC/heatpump
On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 09:45:43 -0400, Larry wrote:
Call Electric Boat! Electric Boat Corp 75 Eastern Point Rd Groton, CT zip code Phone: (860) 433-3000 =================== Better yet: http://www.duffyelectricboats.com/ |
boat AC/heatpump
Wayne.B wrote in
: http://www.duffyelectricboats.com/ Wow...Rolls Batteries (Would you use anything else in a Duffy?!) lists 8D batteries between $433 and $907 each on: http://www.staabbattery.com/rolls_de...atteries.shtml We'll need the biggest capacity superbattery as only the best will do. $907 each times 16 batteries equals $14,512 if you replaced them TODAY. With a 7 year warranty that's conspicuously missing from the warranty explanation webpage I'm not sure how long the REPLACEMENT warranty actually is, but from the look of the other batteries, a 72 month battery only replaces for 18 months. Beyond that it is pro rated down to nothing at 72 months. Anyone had an old Rolls deep cycle like the 8D replaced by them? If they last 3 years before the capacity starts limiting cruising range uncomfortably, at today's awful inflation rate over the next 3 years of, say, 15%, replacement's gonna cost you around $16,000 to 17,000 PLUS INFLATION EVERY 3 years....or so... Sure makes what the boatyard told you it was gonna cost to overhaul the old 3 cyl Yanmar look real cheap after 7000 hours, doesn't it? And, curiously, the Yanmar doesn't eat itself just sitting at the dock like lead-acid batteries do. OUCH! |
boat AC/heatpump
On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 23:39:47 -0400, Larry wrote:
If they last 3 years before the capacity starts limiting cruising range uncomfortably, at today's awful inflation rate over the next 3 years of, say, 15%, replacement's gonna cost you around $16,000 to 17,000 PLUS INFLATION EVERY 3 years....or so... Rolls batteries typically last 7 to 10 years if well cared for. We are *not* talking Walmart quality here. Most of the folks who buy those beautiful little Duffy boats are old enough that 7 to 10 years is as good as a lifetime warranty. |
boat AC/heatpump
Roger Long wrote:
Larry, snip RV heat pump advice for sailors I put this post quite well up on my mental list of the ten best posts ever to the forum. I would also add KUDOS to common sense, a commodity often absent from gold plated boaters with unqualified aspirations to snobbery. Hint: real snobs don't need bling. As an unconcerned snob, far too snobbish to usually involve one's self with stupid people, I have however been unavoidably forced to contemplate some issues of stupidity WRT heating and cooling and energy. The question in this vein begs expression: why do not all air conditioners include the obviously useful option of being reversible? Why do people not insist on this option? To use an air conditioner as a heating appliance seems to me to be so basic an idea thet there must be a conspiracy of stupid marketing people to not advertise this as an option to save energy for heating, and of course, money. If every a/c could be switched to a heat pump function the energy saved in winter, spring and fall heating applications would surely be significant on a national scale, even if all we did was to reverse the mounting in our window units and control the heating function by unplugging it. Pumping heat is cheaper than creating it. Why does not every a/c unit include provision to use it as a heater? It's a national scandal of stupidity, especially given the efficiency placards we see on refrigerators, stoves, etc. It's a scandal because the efficiency would figure so obviously in an energy short world, or just in dollars spent for heat. Possibly a reversible control panel would be cheaper than reversible valving solenoids or manual valves, even if, as some will say, it won't work in a cold winter because of the freon, etc, etc, it would be worth it if you do the math, even if the freon used were a little more expensive. Sometimes and once again, CHEAP is BETTER. It is only stupidity that we do not, did not start on this 50 years ago. Terry K |
boat AC/heatpump
I do realize how many amps, but I have a DC generator and don't want to
run the thing on an inverter. Mike Do you realize how many amps a 6000 btu air conditioner would require at 12 volts? Hey Larry, they don't just take heaters to the boat. krj |
boat AC/heatpump
Wayne.B wrote in
: Rolls batteries typically last 7 to 10 years if well cared for. We are *not* talking Walmart quality here. Most of the folks who buy those beautiful little Duffy boats are old enough that 7 to 10 years is as good as a lifetime warranty. Running sailboat lighting, the stereo and some electronics with the intermittent load of the bilge pump and inverter is a far cry from running a 20 horsepower DC propulsion motor pulling a large boat at 8 knots, discharging the hell out of the Sooperbatteries in the process. Guessing, using the standard 846 watts/hp, 20hp = 16,920 watts divided by the 96 volts all the series batteries produce = 176 (and change) AMPS if you're running it at 8 knots, wide open. Wanna bet they get HOT?! Pouring out 180 amps from a plastic cased lead-acid battery, subject to physics and chemistry no amount of advertising hype can contradict, I submit there's no way a Rolls sooper-dooper battery will survive 7 years of this abuse, which amounts to connecting your Rolls house batteries to the starter motor and driving home without diesel fuel every time you run the boat. I'd love to test this theory if Rolls is willing to fund the Duffy and $14,000 worth of Rolls batteries for an honest test, however. LET THE DEEP CYCLING BEGIN! I see the accessories all run off yet another $900 house battery. I didn't add that figure in because every boat has those. The damned battery supplies from anywhere seem to go flat when someone shows up with the simplest calculator and ohms law asking embarrassing questions why the 4KW inverter can't run 2 ton of air conditioning off $15,000 in batteries....(c; |
boat AC/heatpump
On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 15:12:59 -0400, Larry wrote:
Running sailboat lighting, the stereo and some electronics with the intermittent load of the bilge pump and inverter is a far cry from running a 20 horsepower DC propulsion motor pulling a large boat at 8 knots, discharging the hell out of the Sooperbatteries in the process. Guessing, using the standard 846 watts/hp, 20hp = 16,920 watts divided by the 96 volts all the series batteries produce = 176 (and change) AMPS if you're running it at 8 knots, wide open. Wanna bet they get HOT?! Your numbers are off a bit. Around here these things get driven by little old men and ladys around the canals for a few hours on Sunday afternoon when the grand children are visiting. Average speed is probably about 5 kts which requires no more than 3 or 4 hp with an easily driven hull. Figure 4,000 watts give or take, around 40 amps, no heat generated, no animals killed, injured or abused. After 3 hours the batteries are still at greater than 50%. These things do not get taken off shore. :-) |
boat AC/heatpump
"Terry K" wrote in news:1151068708.100276.227550
@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com: Why does not every a/c unit include provision to use it as a heater? Most have strip heaters in them, or have it an available option..... A heat pump needs, well, heat to function well. Here in the South we heat our homes with heat pumps. But, alas, they only work good down to about 40F outside air temperature, then the evaporator (the outside unit of the reversed cycle) starts to freeze up requiring us to temporarily reverse it again to boil off the ice that forms on the outside coils. They call it "Defrost Cycle". I've always called it "Freeze Your Ass Cycle" as really COLD air comes out of my vents when it's going on. Boats with heat pumps work great in Charleston because the water from the Atlantic is always WARM, even in January. The water never gets below about 50F for long, so the warm water pumping through the water-cooled heat pump keeps it from freezing up. If a water-pumped heat pump ever DOES freeze up, say from the creepy crawlers plugging up the seawater strainer, for instance, or the seawater pump failing, an amazingly fast block of ICE forms INSIDE the seawater heat exchanger, which is just tubing, after all. This ice, of course, does what ice likes to do, expand and rip open any "pipe" it freezes in, including the amazingly expensive seawater heat exchanger. Another reason I don't like it is the damned maintenance, especially going to the boat in winter to clean the creepy crawlers out of the strainer so often. Even in winter they colonize a strainer here as they get sucked in. One good reason for that is the ones trapped in the strainer are warmer than the ones outside the boat, I suspect. They seem to relish in the warmth of the strainer. Electric heat, heat strips, suffers from none of these problems. When's the last time you took your electric heater apart to clean it out? Mostly never? Now, economics. Noone gives a rat! They're paying for dock space with 50A of 120VAC for a god-awful amount each month. If the electric bill on the boat is $200/month or $20, who cares? Boaters with electric meters, excepted, running strip heat in the boat simply drops marina profits. It's cheap heat when someone else is paying for the power to run it...especially if you factor in the boater's expense of heat pumps, maintenance, the damned seawater pump that has a MTBF of 150 hours, cleaning out strainers on a freezing, deserted dock on Feb 2nd in the gale. It's not an issue "Up Nawth", anyway. With a seawater temperature of 33F, the heat pump is nearly useless as its seawater heat exchanger freezes below the water freezing point and it either has to do frequent reverses of the cycle to deice it or just freeze it solid..... |
boat AC/heatpump
On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 15:12:59 -0400, Larry wrote:
/// Guessing, using the standard 846 watts/hp, 20hp = 16,920 watts divided by the 96 volts all the series batteries produce = 176 (and change) AMPS if you're running it at 8 knots, wide open. Wanna bet they get HOT?! // Make that 746 watts per horse Brian Whatcott Altus OK |
boat AC/heatpump
Brian Whatcott wrote in
: Make that 746 watts per horse oops....anyway it's way too many amps...continuously. |
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