Propane system foul-up
 

I just fouled up my boat's propane tubing to the stove.

What the boat had, was a continuous length of 3/8" rubber hose that ran from
the propane locker to the stove. This hose ran between the ice box and the
hull.

I have just converted to refrigeration and because I could not get at the
area that the hose ran through, I used pour-in foam insulation. To provide a
conduit for the rubber hose, I put in a piece of garden hose with idea that
I would move it back & forth and then pull it out before the foam "set" too
hard. Well as usual, this did not work out! I could not get the garden hose
out! And, the garden hose is about same size as the propane hose, so I can't
run the propane hose through the garden hose (Should have used larger
hose!!)

I was thinking about just using a short piece of copper tubing and then
attaching the rubber hose to each side with double hose clamps. I am sure
this would work, but I don't think it would pass a survey. In fact, I am
concerned that any type of joint inside the boat may not pass. I could use
flared connections on each side, but would still need a barbed hose
connector with clamps.

If I have to have no connections along the run, I would need some type of
tubing that will fit through a 7/16" ID hose. Only thing that comes to mind,
is to use 3/8" copper tubing all the way and then a short rubber hose to
connect to the stove. Interestingly, the Kenyon stove has a barbed fitting
for attaching the hose - I have it double clamped, but from what I have
read, this should probably be a flared connection too? If I do this, I will
have to buy a flaring tool and make the connections after feeding the tubing
through the "conduit".

Other option, is to SOMEHOW remove the garden hose. The section of foam it
passes through is about 30" wide. It seems loose for about 10" but firmly
stuck for the other 20". I have tried to come up with an idea on how to
drill or cut it out, but I can only get at the end openings. Any good ideas
on how to unstick the garden hose :) ??

GBM

Propane system foul-up
 

On Thu, 18 May 2006 23:45:23 -0400, "GBM"
wrote:

Other option, is to SOMEHOW remove the garden hose. The section of foam it
passes through is about 30" wide. It seems loose for about 10" but firmly
stuck for the other 20". I have tried to come up with an idea on how to
drill or cut it out, but I can only get at the end openings. Any good ideas
on how to unstick the garden hose :) ??

GBM


Collapse the hose with a vacuum? Or pressurize it to expand the hole
in the foam? Or both in turn?

__________________________________________________ __________
Glen "Wiley" Wilson usenet1 SPAMNIX at world wide wiley dot com
To reply, lose the capitals and do the obvious.

Take a look at cpRepeater, my NMEA data integrator, repeater, and
logger at http://www.worldwidewiley.com/

Propane system foul-up
 

Glen "Wiley" Wilson wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2006 23:45:23 -0400, "GBM"
wrote:

Other option, is to SOMEHOW remove the garden hose. The section of
foam it passes through is about 30" wide. It seems loose for about
10" but firmly stuck for the other 20". I have tried to come up with
an idea on how to drill or cut it out, but I can only get at the end
openings. Any good ideas on how to unstick the garden hose :) ??

GBM


Collapse the hose with a vacuum? Or pressurize it to expand the hole
in the foam? Or both in turn?

__________________________________________________ __________
Glen "Wiley" Wilson usenet1 SPAMNIX at world wide wiley dot com
To reply, lose the capitals and do the obvious.

Take a look at cpRepeater, my NMEA data integrator, repeater, and
logger at http://www.worldwidewiley.com/

Dunno what country you are in, but in the UK, there are regulations which
would virtually FORCE you to use copper tubing along the whole length of the
run, except at the ends, where a short piece of rubber or armoured rubber is
permisible because of movement and/or ease of connection.

I find it hard to believe we are alone in this recommendation, sure all
countries with large leisure fleets must have similar regs.?

Dennis.

Propane system foul-up
 

"Glen "Wiley" Wilson"

Other option, is to SOMEHOW remove the garden hose. The section of foam
it
passes through is about 30" wide. It seems loose for about 10" but firmly
stuck for the other 20". I have tried to come up with an idea on how to
drill or cut it out, but I can only get at the end openings. Any good
ideas
on how to unstick the garden hose :) ??

GBM


Collapse the hose with a vacuum? Or pressurize it to expand the hole
in the foam? Or both in turn?


Glen,

The thought had passed my mind - But the water hose is designed for water
pressure of at least 80psi, so I did not think my compressor (45psi) would
do much to expand it. I have a hand vacuum pump but vacuum would place at
most about 10 psi external pressure on hose - it might work - I think I will
try it on a short piece of hose in the shop first.

GBM

Propane system foul-up
 

Dennis Pogson wrote:

Dunno what country you are in, but in the UK, there are regulations which
would virtually FORCE you to use copper tubing along the whole length of the
run, except at the ends, where a short piece of rubber or armoured rubber is
permisible because of movement and/or ease of connection.

I find it hard to believe we are alone in this recommendation, sure all
countries with large leisure fleets must have similar regs.?

The ABYC standards, which in many aspects are also the legal standards
(I'm not sure about propane, but I would guess it is), permit both
copper and flexible supply lines. My boat was built in Canada, as was
my previous boat, both use flexible hose throughout. Copper must be
flared, hose fittings must be permanent. Compression fittings are
specifically not allowed, and I think hose clamps would be frowned
upon. One line for each appliance, no joints other than at a flexible
section near the appliance.

There must be support, protection against vibration, etc. Its worth
looking over the rules if you're running new lines, it might even be
worth it have a surveyor bless the system. GBM - I could send you
part of my copy but its 13 years old, and they were revised in 2000.

As for removing the old hose, if there is access, you can use a one
inch flat drill bit and a long extension to ream it out and start anew.

Propane system foul-up
 

"Dennis Pogson" wrote

Dunno what country you are in, but in the UK, there are regulations which
would virtually FORCE you to use copper tubing along the whole length of
the
run, except at the ends, where a short piece of rubber or armoured rubber
is
permisible because of movement and/or ease of connection.

I find it hard to believe we are alone in this recommendation, sure all
countries with large leisure fleets must have similar regs.?


Dennis,

We are in Canada, but many surveyors use the American ABYC regulations.
These regulations allow use of flexible gas hosing ( I have quoted them
below).

What is not clear to me, is Section A-1.9.3 "Flexible LPG supply line shall
be equipped
with permanently attached end fittings, such as a swaged sleeve or sleeve
and threaded insert."

What do they mean by "sleeve and threaded insert" as an end connection on
flexible hose?

GBM


A-1.9 FUEL LINES
A-1.9.1 As installed, the fuel supply line system and
its components shall be compatible with LPG, and shall
withstand the stresses and exposure of the marine
environment.
A-1.9.2 LPG fuel supply line shall comply with the
construction, performance, manufacturing and test, and
marking requirements of UL 21, LP Gas Hose, or
A-1.9.2.1 be corrosion resistant metallic tubing such
as annealed copper tubing, standard type, Grade K or L,
conforming to ASTM B88-75a, Specifications for
Seamless Copper Water Tube, with a wall thickness of not
less than 0.032 inches (0.815 mm).
NOTE to A-1.9.2: The scope of UL 21 states that the
standard is not intended to apply to hose used in confined
areas. A-1.9.2 does not require that the hose be UL listed,
only that it complies with the specified requirements of
the UL standard.
A-1.9.3 Flexible LPG supply line shall be equipped
with permanently attached end fittings, such as a swaged
sleeve or sleeve and threaded insert.
A-1.9.4 Metal tubing shall be connected by means of
flare fittings.
NOTE: “Long nut” flare fittings should be used. The
short nut type fitting used in refrigeration systems can
precipitate fatigue failure due to vibration.
A-1.9.5 Fuel Line Location and Installation
A-1.9.5.1 Fuel supply lines shall be protected from
physical damage, and
A-1.9.5.1.1 shall be accessible for inspection.
A-1.9.5.2 A flexible LPG fuel line section shall be
used to allow free swing of gimbaled stoves.
A-1.9.5.3 Fuel supply lines shall be supported by clips
or straps or other suitable means such as conduit or tray to
prevent vibration damage, and
A-1.9.5.3.1 the clips or straps or other devices shall be
corrosion resistant, and
A-1.9.5.3.2 shall be designed to prevent cutting,
abrading, or damage to the lines, and
A-1.9.5.3.3 shall be galvanically compatible with fuel
supply line material.
A-1.9.5.4 Fuel supply lines shall be protected by close
fitting grommets, sleeves, or sealant of non-abrasive
material wherever they pass through decks or watertight
bulkheads, and the method used shall be watertight.
A-1.9.5.5 Fuel supply lines passing through bulkheads
that need not be watertight shall be installed so that the
bulkheads will not cut, abrade, or damage the line.
A-1.9.5.6 Fuel supply lines shall be continuous lengths
of tubing, piping, or hose from the regulating device,
solenoid valve, or leak detector to the appliance, or to the
flexible section at the appliance.
A-1.9.5.7 LPG fuel supply lines shall not be used for
an electrical ground.

Propane system foul-up
 

This might work, but I'd do it as last resort.
Make a short plug to press fit into the hose on one end and fit a ratchet
wrench on the other. Press the round end into a accessible end of the tube.
Epoxy and or pin the tube to the plug. When cure use your ratchet to twist
the hose which might collapse it and un-glue it from the foam. If you can
get at least half the length un-glued, you have a shot at it.
BF


"GBM" wrote in message
...
I just fouled up my boat's propane tubing to the stove.

What the boat had, was a continuous length of 3/8" rubber hose that ran
from
the propane locker to the stove. This hose ran between the ice box and
the
hull.

I have just converted to refrigeration and because I could not get at the
area that the hose ran through, I used pour-in foam insulation. To provide
a
conduit for the rubber hose, I put in a piece of garden hose with idea
that
I would move it back & forth and then pull it out before the foam "set"
too
hard. Well as usual, this did not work out! I could not get the garden
hose
out! And, the garden hose is about same size as the propane hose, so I
can't
run the propane hose through the garden hose (Should have used larger
hose!!)

I was thinking about just using a short piece of copper tubing and then
attaching the rubber hose to each side with double hose clamps. I am sure
this would work, but I don't think it would pass a survey. In fact, I am
concerned that any type of joint inside the boat may not pass. I could use
flared connections on each side, but would still need a barbed hose
connector with clamps.

If I have to have no connections along the run, I would need some type of
tubing that will fit through a 7/16" ID hose. Only thing that comes to
mind,
is to use 3/8" copper tubing all the way and then a short rubber hose to
connect to the stove. Interestingly, the Kenyon stove has a barbed fitting
for attaching the hose - I have it double clamped, but from what I have
read, this should probably be a flared connection too? If I do this, I
will
have to buy a flaring tool and make the connections after feeding the
tubing
through the "conduit".

Other option, is to SOMEHOW remove the garden hose. The section of foam it
passes through is about 30" wide. It seems loose for about 10" but firmly
stuck for the other 20". I have tried to come up with an idea on how to
drill or cut it out, but I can only get at the end openings. Any good
ideas
on how to unstick the garden hose :) ??

GBM

Propane system foul-up
 

"Jeff" wrote

GBM - I could send you
part of my copy but its 13 years old, and they were revised in 2000.

Thanks, but I have an electronic copy that I obtained somewhere?


As for removing the old hose, if there is access, you can use a one
inch flat drill bit and a long extension to ream it out and start anew.

Because the hose is about 30" long, I was wondering if I could drill it out.
It may be possible if I can get a long extension. One problem, is that it is
likely not a straight run. I have thought of making a long hole drill with a
piece of thin metal tubing that will fit over the hose. Just cut some teeth
into the end of the tubing - If I go at it from each side it only needs to
be about 15" long.

I could seal off the hose and drill a new hole, but because this runs near
the hull, I would have to be careful to get it to go in the right direction!

I will look at running copper all the way too - It's a bit of a job though
to get proper supports all the way - it has to run across the lazarette
lockers and they have limited access. I would be more concerned about copper
without frequent supports than with the rubber hose which were able to
tie-wrap at intervals.

Enough talk - thanks for listening - now I need to go and do it!

GBM

Propane system foul-up
 

pull on one end until it comes out or breaks, then pull on the other
end. Otherwise, poke a hot copper tube through the foam, or reout it
elswhere.

Propane system foul-up
 

"GBM" wrote

Because the hose is about 30" long, I was wondering if I could drill it
out.
It may be possible if I can get a long extension. One problem, is that it
is
likely not a straight run. I have thought of making a long hole drill with
a
piece of thin metal tubing that will fit over the hose. Just cut some
teeth
into the end of the tubing - If I go at it from each side it only needs to
be about 15" long.

Well, I tried this:
- I cut the hose off flush.
- Then used a hole saw to open up the holes in the wood bulkheads from 3/4"
to 1".
- Made up a "foam hole cutter" out of an old piece of 1" S/S tubing - just
ground one end to a circular knife edge.
- slipped the cutter over the garden hose and worked it into the foam - It
needed a bit of force and rotation.

Once I had about 8" loose on each side, a good tug released the remaining
foam.

The stove is now hooked up - still need to test the hose connection onto the
stove which is just a barb with two hose clamps. Can't see a way around this
unless I could crimp the end on the boat. (The connection to the stove is
actually a 45 deg flare nut that attaches the hose barb.

Thanks for all the ideas!

GBM