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Boat Safety - and thread arguments
On Sat, 15 Apr 2006 12:32:52 +0100, "News f2s"
wrote: Can we curtail this discussion until we have input from someone who has actually died from sailing. |
Boat Safety - and thread arguments
In article .com,
" wrote: Very glad to see the safety discussion. Most informative. I am very involved in the US effort to require that all exposed propellers on boats are guarded. We can use your assistance and input. Short answer - no. Please give up now. I am fully aware of the injury potential, I have seen the results, some of my work IRB's have prop guards because of where they operate. To move to a blanket rule is uncalled for and ridiculous. Are you seriously proposing that a 500K tonne bulk carrier have prop guards fitted? Good luck..... PDW |
Boat Safety - and thread arguments
"Gary" wrote in message news:4pT0g.33655$WI1.11728@pd7tw2no... Rob Cullen wrote: I imagine the chances of being killed by falling are somewhat higher. Someone once said: "Novice climbers worry about falling, experienced climbers worry about something falling on them." Someone else said: "If at first you don't succeed............. Sky diving is not the sport for you." |
Boat Safety - and thread arguments
Duncan Heenan wrote: Someone else said: "If at first you don't succeed............. Sky diving is not the sport for you." Aker Bilk, I believe. And slightly reworded: If at first you don't succeed, don't go hang gliding. |
Boat Safety - and thread arguments
a valid point
what's the normal driving of a car equivalent to sailing a very high percormance dinghy or sailing a more conventiona ldinghy class in close racing ( even at the club or regional level) tryign to force your way through or on your chosen route on the road is 'dangerous driving' it's all part of the game even in an Optimist! |
Boat Safety - and thread arguments
The figures are not all that accurrate at the USCG but they are working
on them and should be able to provide more detailed data soon. At the most recent meeting the following figures were presented. In the summer of 2005 alone, a brief and very limited media (90 days) search, uncovered 58 exposed recreational boat propeller strikes: 34% were fatal 14% led to amputation of a limb 42% were severe lacerations requiring hospitalization for extended periods. (Note when we speak of "severe lacerations" from a propeller strike we mean severe life altering/changing lacerations) The above demonstrates an extraordinary result but unfortunately the standard consequences, common to most grievous of boating accidents. Worst of all we are finding far too many children from age 3-18 represented in these horrifying statistics. Similar to the automotive industry forty years ago, the recreational boating manufactures argue wrongly, safety is the responsibility of the operator. We believe safety can be designed into a product and that safety is not an option, it should be mandated. Safety does sale! RT |
Boat Safety - and thread arguments
Of course not. Only intersted in Recreational craft.
RT |
Boat Safety - and thread arguments
The stats you are citing have many, many missing events and that is the
view of the USCG. The stats until recently did not separate out "overboards" that were struck by Propellers or the drownings that were caused after being struck by a propeller but the primary cause of death is the drowning. RT |
Boat Safety - and thread arguments
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Boat Safety - and thread arguments
Dave,
I do not think that figure is known? RT |
Boat Safety - and thread arguments
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Boat Safety - and thread arguments
Pete Verdon wrote:
wrote: Of course not. Only intersted in Recreational craft. Oh? So small power craft that happen to be doing a job of work are exempt? Pete best way to get prop guards into general usage would be to have a discount on your insurance premium if you have an approved one installed. Basically in the same way as I have a discount on my car insurance for having an approved immobiliser installed. -- XP, unsafe on the information highway at any speed |
Boat Safety - and thread arguments
In article .com,
" wrote: Of course not. Only intersted in Recreational craft. I have 2 workboats, approx 30' LOA, with twin 225HP o/bs. They're commercially registered (in survey). I have a 12' sailing dinghy with a sometimes used 2HP o/b that's not registered at all, and doesn't have to be. Now, which is capable of inflicting more damage? Which would your proposed rule apply to? You're really not thinking this through. I strongly suspect you chant the 'if it saves one life, it's worth it' mantra at every opportunity. Any analogy with cars doesn't really hold as far as I can see. Perhaps you'd care to be more specific. Then we'll see if the logic actually applies to boats. PDW |
Boat Safety - and thread arguments
"Dave" wrote in message ... On 18 Apr 2006 08:21:00 -0700, " said: The stats until recently did not separate out "overboards" that were struck by Propellers or the drownings that were caused after being struck by a propeller but the primary cause of death is the drowning. You may limit your answer to my question to the period for which the more detailed numbers you presumably have are available. Dave, I think your answer, if not directly available, can be implied by the stat I quoted on an earlier date: ------------------------------------------- Boats (12,000,000 - of which sail and Aux sail 40%) Deaths pa 800 (5 times as many injuries) 0.25 per 100,000 of population 7 per 100,000 boats 2.8 per 10,000,000 hours (heroic assumption; 250hrs per boat pa) However: sailboats are only 1% of deaths! ------------------------------------------- It would be reasonable to assume that if sail and auxiliary sail boats represented 40% of the fleet, but only 1% of the deaths, then deaths (and severe injury for that matter) due to props on these vessels are not significant. And surely that's the point. There may be a target group in which prop guards make economic sense - small motor vessels? But perhaps there's much better value for money educating peple to use lifejackets and buoyancy aids - whose lack is one of the biggest contributions to death on the water. The other major contribution - alcohol - has been tackled in cars through draconian punishment. Very difficult to apply in the pure leisure field of boating! -- JimB http://www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/ Describing some Greek and Spanish cruising areas |
Boat Safety - and thread arguments
I have trouble following your logic, and where did you get those
numbers??? here's a good source: http://www.uscgboating.org/statistic...dent_stats.htm News f2s wrote: I think your answer, if not directly available, can be implied by the stat I quoted on an earlier date: ------------------------------------------- Boats (12,000,000 - of which sail and Aux sail 40%) 12 million boats are registered, but only about 140,000, or 1.2% are auxiliary sail, with slightly over have being outboards. I don't know how you could think 40% of all boats are sail! Deaths pa 800 (5 times as many injuries) The death rate has dropped about to 700 or less for 4 of the last 5 years, there has been a significant trend towards safety in recent years. 0.25 per 100,000 of population ??? 7 per 100,000 boats deaths per boat? 2.8 per 10,000,000 hours (heroic assumption; 250hrs per boat pa) This has to be hugely overstated, but what's the point? However: sailboats are only 1% of deaths! Sailboat related deaths occur in almost exactly the same proportion as their numbers in the registered fleet. They probably are statistically safer if you could include all of the unregistered human powered vehicles (which also includes some sailboats) since canoes and kayaks are a major source of fatalities. ------------------------------------------- It would be reasonable to assume that if sail and auxiliary sail boats represented 40% of the fleet, but only 1% of the deaths, then deaths (and severe injury for that matter) due to props on these vessels are not significant. Your 40% assumption is bogus, but the accident stats do actually say how many of the prop strikes occur for sailboats. My tally showed 2 of the 1000 strikes in the last 8 years were related to sailboats, where 12 would be the expected number. Unfortunately, these numbers only list the "first event" in an accident, so it does not include cases where the engine/prop strike is the second event. Unlike every other category, 2/3 of engine/prop strike accidents are second or third events, meaning that most strikes start with another event, likely falling overboard (or capsizing, ejection, etc.). However, there is no reason to think sailboats would be any worse in "second events" than in "first event." And surely that's the point. There may be a target group in which prop guards make economic sense - small motor vessels? Actually in 2004 10% of the strikes were vessels 26 feet and over, and they represent only about 5% of the fleet. (Small numbers are at work here, though.) The one stat that does jump out is that stern drives are only about 15% of the fleet, but were involved in about 45% of the accidents! This seems to vary year to year, but there is a definite trend. But perhaps there's much better value for money educating peple to use lifejackets and buoyancy aids - whose lack is one of the biggest contributions to death on the water. Yup. And education. The other major contribution - alcohol - has been tackled in cars through draconian punishment. Very difficult to apply in the pure leisure field of boating! Of course, we could just accept the fact that there is a certain risk in living. Personally, I would favor required training, and stricter enforcement of drinking, speeding, and reckless boating laws. But sometimes we go "overboard" on some of the safety regs - for example, my 11 year old kid is required (in some states) to wear a PFD while sleeping down below. |
Boat Safety - and thread arguments
"Jeff" wrote in message . .. I have trouble following your logic, and where did you get those numbers??? here's a good source: http://www.uscgboating.org/statistic...dent_stats.htm same source, excepting a correction in sailboat numbers for those states which don't require sailboats and auxiliary sailboats to be registers. *However* serious finger trouble on my part and lack of double checking changed 4% into 40%! ------------------------------------------- Boats (12,000,000 - of which sail and Aux sail 40%) 12 million boats are registered, but only about 140,000 see below, or 1.2% are auxiliary sail, with slightly over have being outboards. I don't know how you could think 40% of all boats are sail! Agreed. I was looking in 2002 for comparable figures in aviation and vehicles as well. In 2002 the CG recorded 216,657 auxiliary sailboats and 123,772 sail boats (340,429 - 2.5% of the total fleet) with possibly a further 50,000 from states which did not require registration of these vessels, but required power only registration. I know - 3%. Good thing you were there to check! Deaths pa 800 (5 times as many injuries) The death rate has dropped about to 700 or less for 4 of the last 5 years, there has been a significant trend towards safety in recent years. Agreed. The year I was looking at 5,705 accidents, 4,062 injuries and 750 fatalities. 0.25 per 100,000 of population Assuming you've 300,000,000 people living in US 7 per 100,000 boats 5.77 to be exact. I was doing back of the envelope comparisons between different transport modes, and 20% error either way made no difference to the argument. 2.8 per 10,000,000 hours (heroic assumption; 250hrs per boat pa) This has to be hugely overstated, but what's the point? However: sailboats are only 1% of deaths. Sorry, 1.5%, but with only 11 deaths the percentage assumption is weak. Sailboat related deaths occur in almost exactly the same proportion as their numbers in the registered fleet. They probably are statistically safer if you could include all of the unregistered human powered vehicles (which also includes some sailboats) since canoes and kayaks are a major source of fatalities. Broadly agreed. We had been selecting different elements of the stats for different purposes, and on my game sailboats plus auxiliary sailboats had roughly half the death rate (hangs head in shame about bogus 40%). Very much agree with all your other (snipped) comments. It's good to see a rational discussion with bad assumptions/statements being corrected like this. The point of my original quotation of rates per 100,000 etc was to show the following(now corrected!) ------------------------------------- Cars. (number not known by me) 38,000 deaths pa, (10 times as many injuries). 15 per 100,000 population (UK, about 7/100,000) 1.5 per 100,000,000 miles 4.5 per 10,000,000 hours Source: http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/ -------------------------------------- Boats (12,000,000) Deaths pa 750 (5 times as many injuries), 5000 accidents 0.25 deaths per 100,000 of population 6 deaths per 100,000 boats 2.8 deaths per 10,000,000 boating hours (heroic assumption; 250hrs per boat pa) Source: http://www.uscgboating.org/statistic...stics_2002.pdf --------------------------------------- General Aviation (220,000 aircraft, 30,000,000 hours flown) Deaths pa 600 (1,800 accidents) 0.2 deaths per 100,000 population 270 deaths per 100,000 aircraft 200 deaths per 10,000,000 flying hours Source: http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2004/ARG0401.pdf ---------------------------------------------- The idea was to put some factual scale into rants about relative safety of different leisure occupations. Apologies to those who've been bored by these tables before. They're more accurate now. -- JimB http://www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/ Describing some Greek and Spanish cruising areas |
Boat Safety - and thread arguments
How does the "recreational mind set" modify or accentuate stupid
behavior and is such behavior encouraged by the promotion of the activity? Good point though that seems to apply almost universally inall activity. Knowing that, auto manufacturers have designed cars to anticipate 'some" stupid behaviors. RT |
Boat Safety - and thread arguments
News f2s wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message . .. I have trouble following your logic, and where did you get those numbers??? here's a good source: http://www.uscgboating.org/statistic...dent_stats.htm same source, excepting a correction in sailboat numbers for those states which don't require sailboats and auxiliary sailboats to be registers. *However* serious finger trouble on my part and lack of double checking changed 4% into 40%! ------------------------------------------- Boats (12,000,000 - of which sail and Aux sail 40%) 12 million boats are registered, but only about 140,000 see below, or 1.2% are auxiliary sail, with slightly over have being outboards. I don't know how you could think 40% of all boats are sail! Agreed. I was looking in 2002 for comparable figures in aviation and vehicles as well. In 2002 the CG recorded 216,657 auxiliary sailboats and 123,772 sail boats (340,429 - 2.5% of the total fleet) with possibly a further 50,000 from states which did not require registration of these vessels, but required power only registration. I know - 3%. Good thing you were there to check! The 2002 numbers are quite quirky. In the several years before, and several years after, the number of auxiliary sailboats is about 140,000, or 1.2% of the fleet. How 75000 sailboats suddenly appeared in 2002 and then disappeared in 2003 is beyond me. The only aux sailboats not registered would be in some states that waive registration of vessels with engines under 10 hp, and I don't think many of those are left. Unpowered sailboats are hardly worth considering because the numbers are so unreliable. In addition to the problems in counting them, I've never heard of an accident (other than a fatality) on a small boat being reported. And certainly, in a discussion about propeller strikes, including unpowered vessels isn't fair! .... The point of my original quotation of rates per 100,000 etc was to show the following(now corrected!) ------------------------------------- Cars. (number not known by me) .... 4.5 per 10,000,000 hours .... 2.8 deaths per 10,000,000 boating hours (heroic assumption; 250hrs per boat pa) Remember, if your guess of 250 hours is high by a factor of 2, then boats are more dangerous (by the hour) then cars. |
Boat Safety - and thread arguments
"Jeff" wrote in message ... The 2002 numbers are quite quirky. In the several years before, and several years after, the number of auxiliary sailboats is about 140,000, or 1.2% of the fleet. How 75000 sailboats suddenly appeared in 2002 and then disappeared in 2003 is beyond me. Sure , take your word for it. And certainly, in a discussion about propeller strikes, including unpowered vessels isn't fair! Didn't intend that . Agreed. My thesis, earlier in the thread, was tackling the comparative risks between Autos, Aviation and Boats. So I jumped into a discussion on a different beam. Remember, if your guess of 250 hours is high by a factor of 2, then boats are more dangerous (by the hour) then cars. Sure. Except in UK. We seem to have very safe roads; heaven knows why, they're so crowded! It was the Aviation stats that interested me. An earlier argument in this forum contended that Genreal Aviation flying was safer then whatever. The imputaion was that the insurance hikes in general aviation may invade boating if boating third party boat insurance was made compulsory. I couldn't swallow that, so I went home to do the work. You can see the numbers. It's not often you see two orders of difference in the risks. Trivialises other activities. I'll go with the idea that boating risks are similar to car risks. That's why insurance premiums per capital value are similar. Private aircraft? Whoa there! different game! 10 times the risk? 100 times the risk? Who cares about the odd 20% here or there. Definitely dodgy. Perspective - which you have. Picks up stupid errors. -- JimB http://www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/ Describing some Greek and Spanish cruising areas |
Boat Safety - and thread arguments
"News f2s" wrote in message ... Sure. Except in UK. We seem to have very safe roads; heaven knows why, they're so crowded! The UK ranks very low, with 1.4 deaths per 100 million passenger miles, but the USA is not too far off at 1.7, with stricter reporting. Most other coutries are significantly worse. http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/causes.html scroll about 85% down. Private aircraft? Whoa there! different game! 10 times the risk? 100 times the risk? Who cares about the odd 20% here or there. Definitely dodgy. I started taking lessons once, until a friend (who now owns a plane) pointed out that many of the pilots we knew had crashed or had done a rough forced landing. I decided I could only fully commit to one sport! |
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