Licensing alternative
 

I’m probably like a lot of you folks. I would like the effects of
licensing, knowing that the burdened vessel converging with me and
sort of wavering around in his course actually does know which way to
turn, not having my tax dollars spent looking for bozo’s, etc. I would
also like the freedom of making my own decisions about my competence.
It would also be nice not to have a system come to the waters I sail
where there is an incentive for uniforms who were told to go out and
"show that the system is working" but don’t actually know how to come
alongside or use fenders waste a portion of my afternoon looking for
little pieces of paper.

Everything about the way NJ has implemented the system strikes me as a
good example of how government always finds a way to inconvenience
people and restrict their freedoms without actually doing anything
constructive about the problem. I don’t know what’s going on in CT but
it’s probably another reason to stay north of Cape Cod.

It will probably come to Maine too but it will probably come last.
Hopefully, it will be after I’m no longer too concerned about it. If
it does come become an issue, it isn’t going to do any good to spout
some of the nonsense in the mega thread I started below. We aren’t the
NRA with a constitutional amendment backing us up. Some kind of
alternative will have to be presented. Here’s just an idea.

Establish a fee (can’t be a tax because taxes can’t be raised or added
anymore) of, maybe, 1% on the sale of every new and used boat. If the
buyer can produce a certificate from a recognized course such as the
power squadron, or maybe a no claim history from insurance of a vessel
of similar size, the seller can submit a copy of that instead of the
fee. If someone just wants the boat and is willing to pay the fee,
then it goes to safe boating education and printing more of those
silly hand outs.

I’m not advocating doing this either but, if licensing talk starts up
this way, I want some alternative to present.


--

Roger Long

Licensing alternative
 

I'm a licensed USCG captain and ASA instructor. Having said that, any
license that is required for boating on anything other then inland
waterways is easy to shoot down and should be shot point blank. I am
not familiar with what you are referring to and I am not in your area
for ease or will to find out but if you don't like the law, remember
that you can do something about it. If you don't you'll end up like
the lazy fools in south Florida that sat on their collective fat asses
and did nothing while illegal anchoring laws went into effect all over
the state.

Maritime law is locked into place by international treaty and no state
can override the law just because they pass a local BS law. Case in
point is the guy that was anchored out by Estero Island near Fort
Myers. The local socialist republic of Fort Myers (heavily fortified by
old, decrepit, bored and retired New Yorkers) decided to put up a
mooring ball field. No one did anything about it. There was a passage
of a law and even (supposedly) a signoff from the federal secretary of
transportation. The guy refused to move his boat from the now forbidden
zone. Local law reproachment towed his boat. He sued and won. By the
way, he was in Inland water.

Maritime law dates back 4,000 to 5,000 years - Noah probably sailed
by them! It is international and is a major body of sovereign law that
all boaters should be aware of. Your rights are only yours if you claim
them and protect them. People forget that freedom isn't free. I know
most northerners are real big on liberal heart bleeding government but
has never taken more then 10% of any population to win any revolution
against any government in all history. You're only dealing with a few
laws so stand up and burn them down.

Self responsibly may be unfashionable but it still works better then
anything else.

Licensing alternative
 

What problem do you have with the proposal I made, Roger--provide as
one of
the penalties for boating offenses a suspension of the convicted
boater's
right to operate a boat.

Roger Long wrote:
Because I still have to fix the hole the idiot made in the port side
of my boat. Besides, how do you suspend a right with out a license to
take away? Do you issue a piece of paper that says the person is not
permitted to operate a vessel? Do the boating police then board and
say, "We want to check if you have an operation suspension
certificate, please show it to us?"


No, it's much simpler. Just tattoo on their forehead "No
Boating For You!"

DSK

Licensing alternative
 

Look the thing all of us most want to avoid is anything that gives
land lubber bureaucrats reasons to put guys in uniforms out on the
water with occasional quotas of a certain number of boaters to pull
over to "show the flag", "the system is working", etc. Having your
afternoon interrupted by the Coast Guard is bad enough but, at least
they are minimally trained and almost always professional to a fault.

Do you really want someone besides the Coast Guard driving around with
binoculars looking up your boat name and registration numbers and
typing them into a laptop to decide if they should waste a half hour
of your afternoon?

I should mention BTW that I am a Harbormaster. I don't want this kind
of thing added to my duties any more than I want to be the object of
it when I'm boating somewhere else.

--

Roger Long



"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 10:29:57 GMT, "Roger Long"
said:

Besides, how do you suspend a right with out a license to
take away? Do you issue a piece of paper that says the person is
not
permitted to operate a vessel? Do the boating police then board and
say, "We want to check if you have an operation suspension
certificate, please show it to us?"

Simple. When the person is convicted of, say, drunk boating, the
sentence
may include suspension of his right to operate a boat. If he's
stopped
again, the boating police or CG calls in to check whether he's been
suspended. If he has, he's charged with operating while his right to
operate
was suspended--just as if he had that little piece of plastic and it
was
taken away from him.

Licensing alternative
 

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
"Dave" wrote

Because I still have to fix the hole the idiot made in the port
side of my boat. Besides, how do you suspend a right with out a
license to take away? Do you issue a piece of paper that says
the person is not permitted to operate a vessel? Do the boating
police then board and say, "We want to check if you have an
operation suspension certificate, please show it to us?"

I've mentioned before, but do you have compulsory third party
insurance in some or all states for certain classes of vessels?

Europe (excepting UK) has, and also the insurers run a common
database to check the 'no claims' history of clients. Anywhere in
Europe you're likely to be asked for your certificate of
insurance, and in many countries, if you have an accident giving
rise to a claim and you're not insured, you've lost your boat!

Leave it to the insurers if they want to give discounts to people
who've taken courses or got qualifications.

Any legs in this as a method of policing behaviour?
--
JimB
http://www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/
for opinions comparing Greek cruising areas - N Spain recently
added.

U

Licensing alternative
 

"News f2s" wrote

Leave it to the insurers if they want to give discounts to people
who've taken courses or got qualifications.

Any legs in this as a method of policing behavior?

Long legs, very long legs. The insurers now basically have taken over
from the FAA policing pilot proficiency and safety. The FAA still
does the annoying, Mickey mouse, and useless stuff while the insurance
companies determine who gets to fly.

Believe it. We don't want it to come to this in boating. Despite
being a very cautious and excellent (according to everyone else with a
license who has flown with me) pilot, I am now an ex. pilot because of
the insurance climate. Run away insurance could kill boating as
surely as it has killed some branches of medicine and is strangling
aviation.

It's the eternal problem of society, the alternatives to people acting
responsibly and with care for those around them are always ugly and
burdensome, at least those that government is capable of envisioning.
Usually the attempts to curb irresponsible behavior end up costing the
responsible and considerate lots of money, freedom, convenience, and
enjoyment while the irresponsible carry on just as before.

Classic example: City reacts to a few bad incidents in a public park
by closing it at sundown. Now, without large number of law abiding
citizens to set the ambiance, report problems, and just out number the
bad apples, it becomes a jungle of addicts and muggers. City puts in
more police and diverts money from landscaping , taxes go up, real
estate values around it go down, people move out. All this happens
because the city feels that it has to appear to be reacting to a few
well publicized problems that can take place anywhere. Pretty soon,
no one is enjoying the park except the muggers and addicts and there
are even more of them because the city provided them with territory.

--

Roger Long

Licensing alternative
 

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
"News f2s" wrote

Leave it to the insurers if they want to give discounts to
people who've taken courses or got qualifications.

Any legs in this as a method of policing behavior?

Long legs, very long legs. The insurers now basically have
taken over from the FAA policing pilot proficiency and safety.
The FAA still does the annoying, Mickey mouse, and useless stuff
while the insurance companies determine who gets to fly.

Believe it. We don't want it to come to this in boating.

You're implying that third party insurance is very rare in boating
in the states. So, how do aggrieved parties get compensation from
those who create damage? The parallel seems to me to be more in
line with motoring, rather than aviation. Or else there's
something very different about the insurance climates in USA and
Europe, which I don't think is very likely. It's a pretty
competitive market out there.

Your comments seem to prove a combination of things:

First, in USA there are a lot of high value claims against
aviation by third parties.

Second, the high values are either because lots of damage has been
done, or because your litigation climate encourages lots of
marginal claims, or both of these things.

Puzzled.
--
JimB
http://www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/
for opinions comparing Greek cruising areas - and Spain too.

Licensing alternative
 

Insurance is common. I'm not aware of it being mandatory anywhere but
it never occurred to me to go without it so I didn't check. It is
reasonable in cost and not hard to get. They want to see a survey and
some sailing references so, if I'd said, "I just bought this boat and
I don't know nuttin'.", I might not have gotten the insurance.

I made a comment on jury behavior in another thread. Aviation
judgements go through the roof compared similar injury in other
activities. It's not just the pilots insurance but the costs past on
in the cost of everything else. About 20% of the cost of an airplane
is the manufacturer's liability insurance load.

Here's a classic (and true) story:

Kid gets his license on his 16 th birthday. The parents let him load
up the family plane with three friends his age. The go out and start
buzzing cars up the mountain canyon highways in California. The NTSB
report relates how they were followed across the state by police
reports and the state police were out in cars and other aircraft
looking for them. Finally, they flew into some powerlines that were
not marked because no one ever thought a plane would be down that low
in the canyon.

The mother spent ten years suing Cessna (the builder of the aircraft)
and won!

NTSB reports in this country are not admissible in court. This is
designed to keep the NTSB staff out making aviation safer instead of
being the full time, taxpayer paid, witnesses they would be if the
reports were admitted. The plane type had an occasional fuel flow
vapor interruption issue that was covered in the handbook and the
instructions for dealing with it by turning on a boost pump were
placarded on the panel. Never the less, a number of pilots had
previously gotten over excited when the engine stopped and forgotten
about the instructions in the book and on the panel. The mother's
lawyers just kept hammering away at this issue and these incidents
until he got a jury to believe that the plane hit the wires because it
was gliding down after the engine quit.

Yes, I suspect that things are very different on your side of the
pond.

--

Roger Long

Licensing alternative
 

Quite true.

--

Roger Long

Licensing alternative
 

On 6 Apr 2006 10:50:05 -0500, Dave wrote:

Feel free to champion
the do nothing approach if you think it'll fly.

It certainly flys with me. Don't fix anything if it isn't broken,
especially if the "fix" involves politics and government.

Licensing alternative
 

On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 16:28:11 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

The FAA still
does the annoying, Mickey mouse, and useless stuff while the insurance
companies determine who gets to fly.

Believe it. We don't want it to come to this in boating.

This has already happened with larger boats (60+), and I'm actually
fine with it. Most large yacht policies specify requirements for
captain and crew.

Licensing alternative
 

Da Kine wrote:
I'm a licensed USCG captain and ASA instructor. Having said that, any
license that is required for boating on anything other then inland
waterways is easy to shoot down and should be shot point blank.

OOhhh.... Gee, a real captain. So you signed the Small Vessel Sea
Searvice Form testifying that you owned a 16' boat and lied about
having 360 days on the river with uncle Bubba when you were sixteen? I
guess that 25 GRT Master Inland waters was really tough to get.

So why bother with that caaptain license? Isn't that just another
example of liberal big government manipulating you?

Sarcastic Bob

Licensing alternative
 

No, I drive cargo ships from time to time, have about 25,000 miles of
open ocean towing, do deliveries from here to there like from
California to Florida, Florida to either North Carolina or New York and
back, and a few to Asia, Drive charters and instruct on all kinds of
boats with all kinds of formats from ASA 101 to working with Denis
Conner in San Diego on Stars and Stripes. Most of the boats I drive for
charter don't exceed 120' and for fun I captain tall ships, or at
least the smaller ones like Swift of Ipswich in Los Angeles. If you
want to count mate work, my resume really gets rather extensive.

You obviously haven't learned what you should have about maritime law
and where it came from. If you did you wouldn't be so willfully
ignorant. I suggest you have some fun and read a little.

As for my background, Any other questions? .... Give me a little time
to get back to you if you do because I am only in port until morning
and then I will be underway again for a spell and may not have
connection.

P.S., Bite me!

Licensing alternative
 

In article ,
"Roger Long" wrote:

Aviation judgements go through the roof compared similar injury in
other activities. It's not just the pilots insurance but the costs
past on in the cost of everything else. About 20% of the cost of an
airplane is the manufacturer's liability insurance load.

Multi-million judgements against manufacturers on 20 year-old planes,
nevermind that the "pilot" had a .15 blood alcohol and he "flew" the
plane into the ground 1 mile short at full power.....

Got so bad that no small (2-4 seat) planes were made commercially in the
US for 15-20 years. Think one of them got back in the biz a couple of
years ago.

I carry full *marine* insurance though I am a programmer for the biz and
know the odds intimately, but I sail a *lot* where there are are 'way
too many lawyers.

I also don't worry about licensing requirements. Passed my FAA written
on the first try with 97%. (at the time, about 60% flunked the first
try.) BUT, it's a bother and won't do anything meaningful.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Licensing alternative
 

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Insurance is common. I'm not aware of it being mandatory
anywhere but it never occurred to me to go without it so I
didn't check. It is reasonable in cost and not hard to get.
They want to see a survey and some sailing references so, if I'd
said, "I just bought this boat and I don't know nuttin'.", I
might not have gotten the insurance.

I made a comment on jury behavior in another thread. Aviation
judgements go through the roof compared similar injury in other
activities. It's not just the pilots insurance but the costs
past on in the cost of everything else. About 20% of the cost
of an airplane is the manufacturer's liability insurance load.

Well, the conclusions I'm forming a

1. Aviation insurance effects are not a good model for boat
insurance effects.

2. Third party boat insurance is common in USA, therefore
inexpensive, but not universal.

3. Making third party insurance compulsory for boats over a
certain size/speed may have unwanted side effects, which should be
investigated. Some side effects are the need for policing, and
penalties for infringement. Ingenuity and use of the market place
should deal with these, but there may be other cosiderations which
my limited imagination isn't coping with. Think car insurance?

4. If those side effects don't kill the idea, this does sound
like a sensible alternative to licencing. It deals with boat
damage by third parties. As the market develops, the insurers will
start to differentiate between their clients, implementing cheaper
policies for some groups (licenced sailors? Those who've attended
training courses? Those who don't have claims?).

Indeed, why are licences so often a chosen control method in law?
They don't deal with the unwanted side effects of ignorance or
carelessness.


--
JimB
http://www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/
for opinions comparing Greek cruising areas - and Spain

Licensing alternative
 

They don't deal with the unwanted side effects of ignorance or
carelessness.

Because with people being part of the equation those variables can't be
eliminated.

Licensing alternative
 

"Bill Kearney" wrote in message
t...

They don't deal with the unwanted side effects of ignorance or
carelessness.

Because with people being part of the equation those variables
can't be
eliminated.

Agreed. With insurance though - damage (of any sort) can be
repaired to some degree. Excepting for those who choose to be
outside the law by not insuring. Although with European car
insurance (and I suspect in the US too) the insurers run a pool of
cash to cover victims of un-insured drivers.
--
JimB
http://www.jimbaerselman.f2s.com/
for opinions comparing Greek cruising areas - N Spain too

Licensing alternative
 

Roger ,, are you a Communist? What part of "leave me, my boat, my life, my
life on the water" out of your socialist ideas don't you get?

A fee isn't a tax? Sure,,, no, it is a fee. Are you truly so nuts as
this?

The reason we, me, us, go sailing is to get away from authority. To be
FREE. Let the wind drive us forward, the sea our friend ....

But that isn't good enough for you ,, nope. You want to ruin sailing.



================================================== ===========================
"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
I'm probably like a lot of you folks. I would like the effects of
licensing, knowing that the burdened vessel converging with me and sort of
wavering around in his course actually does know which way to turn, not
having my tax dollars spent looking for bozo's, etc. I would also like the
freedom of making my own decisions about my competence. It would also be
nice not to have a system come to the waters I sail where there is an
incentive for uniforms who were told to go out and "show that the system
is working" but don't actually know how to come alongside or use fenders
waste a portion of my afternoon looking for little pieces of paper.

Everything about the way NJ has implemented the system strikes me as a
good example of how government always finds a way to inconvenience people
and restrict their freedoms without actually doing anything constructive
about the problem. I don't know what's going on in CT but it's probably
another reason to stay north of Cape Cod.

It will probably come to Maine too but it will probably come last.
Hopefully, it will be after I'm no longer too concerned about it. If it
does come become an issue, it isn't going to do any good to spout some of
the nonsense in the mega thread I started below. We aren't the NRA with a
constitutional amendment backing us up. Some kind of alternative will have
to be presented. Here's just an idea.

Establish a fee (can't be a tax because taxes can't be raised or added
anymore) of, maybe, 1% on the sale of every new and used boat. If the
buyer can produce a certificate from a recognized course such as the power
squadron, or maybe a no claim history from insurance of a vessel of
similar size, the seller can submit a copy of that instead of the fee. If
someone just wants the boat and is willing to pay the fee, then it goes to
safe boating education and printing more of those silly hand outs.

I'm not advocating doing this either but, if licensing talk starts up this
way, I want some alternative to present.


--

Roger Long

Licensing alternative
 

Roger, if boat licensing ever comes to my sailing grounds, I am leaving the
USA. I've about had it with this F'n country as it is ,,,, this will just
be the last straw.

The USA .. can't control the millions of illegals who have invaded us ..
gives away millions of dollars to some stinking pit like Iraq,,,, we are
fighting wars in 2 or 3 countries ,, we are being taxed off the planet ,,,
can't buy a house because it cost too much ,,, our public schools suck ,,,,
the politicians are corrupt ...

And now you want to give some fat, dumb, related to the politician,,,
asshole the right to stop me on the high seas so he can decide if I'm
worthy?


That is it for me ... you won't be seeing me in the USA ... good bye.


One good thing about the world,,, lots of water...


I hope your happy.. Communist.


--------------------------------------------------------------
"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Look the thing all of us most want to avoid is anything that gives land
lubber bureaucrats reasons to put guys in uniforms out on the water with
occasional quotas of a certain number of boaters to pull over to "show the
flag", "the system is working", etc. Having your afternoon interrupted by
the Coast Guard is bad enough but, at least they are minimally trained and
almost always professional to a fault.

Do you really want someone besides the Coast Guard driving around with
binoculars looking up your boat name and registration numbers and typing
them into a laptop to decide if they should waste a half hour of your
afternoon?

I should mention BTW that I am a Harbormaster. I don't want this kind of
thing added to my duties any more than I want to be the object of it when
I'm boating somewhere else.

--

Roger Long



"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 10:29:57 GMT, "Roger Long"
said:

Besides, how do you suspend a right with out a license to
take away? Do you issue a piece of paper that says the person is not
permitted to operate a vessel? Do the boating police then board and
say, "We want to check if you have an operation suspension
certificate, please show it to us?"

Simple. When the person is convicted of, say, drunk boating, the sentence
may include suspension of his right to operate a boat. If he's stopped
again, the boating police or CG calls in to check whether he's been
suspended. If he has, he's charged with operating while his right to
operate
was suspended--just as if he had that little piece of plastic and it was
taken away from him.

Licensing alternative
 

On Sun, 09 Apr 2006 16:30:06 GMT, "Thomas Wentworth"
wrote:

Let the wind drive us forward, the sea our friend ....

Even though you may love the water, never think of the sea as your
friend.

A friend cares about you, but the sea is indifferent.

/end sermon

Licensing alternative
 

"Wayne.B" wrote


A friend cares about you, but the sea is indifferent.

I think the sea will be particularly indifferent to this fellow since
I can see no evidence that he will ever have a boat to go on it. Have
you noticed how increasingly off the wall and emotional his posts have
gotten since he first showed up here asking some apparently reasonable
questions about looking for a boat?

I offered him some help in a personal email with no response and I get
these bitter attacks based on his inability to read my posts carefully
enough to see that I'm not saying what he accuses me of at all. (What
do I know? Well, while I'm just getting involved with the details of
small yachts again after several decades, large institutions pay me to
advised them on the procurement of millon dollar plus vessels.)

Too bad, something made me want to help this guy early on but my next
keyclicks after this post will be to killfile him.

--

Roger Long

Licensing alternative
 

Thomas Wentworth wrote:
Roger, if boat licensing ever comes to my sailing grounds, I am leaving the
USA. I've about had it with this F'n country as it is ,,,, this will just
be the last straw.

The USA .. can't control the millions of illegals who have invaded us ..
gives away millions of dollars to some stinking pit like Iraq,,,, we are
fighting wars in 2 or 3 countries ,, we are being taxed off the planet ,,,
can't buy a house because it cost too much ,,, our public schools suck ,,,,
the politicians are corrupt ...

And now you want to give some fat, dumb, related to the politician,,,
asshole the right to stop me on the high seas so he can decide if I'm
worthy?


That is it for me ... you won't be seeing me in the USA ... good bye.


One good thing about the world,,, lots of water...


I hope your happy.. Communist.


Anyone care?

Licensing alternative
 

Thomas Wentworth wrote:
Roger ,, are you a Communist? What part of "leave me, my boat, my life, my
life on the water" out of your socialist ideas don't you get?

A fee isn't a tax? Sure,,, no, it is a fee. Are you truly so nuts as
this?

The reason we, me, us, go sailing is to get away from authority. To be
FREE. Let the wind drive us forward, the sea our friend ....

But that isn't good enough for you ,, nope. You want to ruin sailing.



Actually good sensible sailors want & need some kind of minimal
protection from irresponsible, don't tell me what to do, type of
boaters. Without rules and regulations and an authority to enforce same,
chaos would take over.
Not the type of environment I'd want to take my family sailing in.

Licensing alternative
 

Oh,, you mean like the roads in the USA,,, is that the kind of environment
you are talking about?

Drunk drivers, people who have no licenses, illegals driving all over and
they don't care it they kill you ..no insurance in Mexico..

And you want to bring that to the local ocean?

Are you F'n nuts?

================================================== ========================
"Don White" wrote in message
...
Thomas Wentworth wrote:
Roger ,, are you a Communist? What part of "leave me, my boat, my life,
my life on the water" out of your socialist ideas don't you get?

A fee isn't a tax? Sure,,, no, it is a fee. Are you truly so nuts as
this?

The reason we, me, us, go sailing is to get away from authority. To be
FREE. Let the wind drive us forward, the sea our friend ....

But that isn't good enough for you ,, nope. You want to ruin sailing.



Actually good sensible sailors want & need some kind of minimal protection
from irresponsible, don't tell me what to do, type of boaters. Without
rules and regulations and an authority to enforce same, chaos would take
over.
Not the type of environment I'd want to take my family sailing in.

Licensing alternative
 

Roger ,, why do you want to ruin sailing? Why are you looking to the
"government" all the time? Can't you take care of yourself? Are you some
type of lame ass?

Don't you see what the program you want will lead too? Can't you see the
mess the US Government is in? Do you want some government hack telling you
when you can go sailing?

What on earth is in your head?


I can't believe any sailor would want the government for anything? Take
care of yourself. If you act irrisponsible and die,, good.

The last think on earth any sailor needs is the government telling him/her
when he/she can go out on the ocean.

Bad weather ,,,, big stop sign at the end of the harbor...

Big wind .... Uncle Sam says you can't go out today...

What are you thinking?

I thought you were a sailor?// act and think like one..


========================================
"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
"Wayne.B" wrote


A friend cares about you, but the sea is indifferent.

I think the sea will be particularly indifferent to this fellow since I
can see no evidence that he will ever have a boat to go on it. Have you
noticed how increasingly off the wall and emotional his posts have gotten
since he first showed up here asking some apparently reasonable questions
about looking for a boat?

I offered him some help in a personal email with no response and I get
these bitter attacks based on his inability to read my posts carefully
enough to see that I'm not saying what he accuses me of at all. (What do
I know? Well, while I'm just getting involved with the details of small
yachts again after several decades, large institutions pay me to advised
them on the procurement of millon dollar plus vessels.)

Too bad, something made me want to help this guy early on but my next
keyclicks after this post will be to killfile him.

--

Roger Long

Licensing alternative
 

YOu can't take away rights like that. The bottom line is that when you
go out to sea you are at risk. If you can't handle it you better not
go. I don't like it either. Wilma found the boat next to me and ripped
its roof off and knocked down a very high priced rig that I can not
afford to buy new again. There is no way for me to get the owner to pay
though it is his fault since he did NOTHING to protect from this while
a major cane was coming. I am going to end up with a standard rig and
at the cost of about 10K to me. It sucks but not as much as more rules.

Life goes on and my mast will be back on my boat in another 6 weeks or
less. Its been costly and my boat has been ill since oct. 25 2005 but
still I love sailing and the freedom of the oceans - the last freedom.

Licensing alternative
 

Thomas Wentworth wrote:
Why are you looking to the
"government" all the time? Can't you take care of yourself? Are you some
type of lame ass?


Hi All:
I thinkI have probable spent enough time on this one.

Thomas W. Try the folloing discusion group. You may find a more willing
audience.
alt.fan.rush-limbaugh

Bob
Volunteer Instructor, Oregon Manditory Boater Education Prgram
(Why volunteer?)

Licensing alternative
 

Oh I see ,,, like the Border Patrol!

Or the Drug Enforcement Authority?

How dumb of me ,, of course..

======================

I always thought sailors were self sufficient ,, people who set out on the
ocean for adventure ,, risk takers ,,,

Not on this newsgroup.. nope... the government loving, uncle sam will save
me crowd is here..

What a bunch of losers. And to think I actually thought some of you might
be worth a tally ho...

I would not want you near my boat. A bunch of cry babies, you need the
government to tell you what to do, when to do it, and you even want a
license!

You make me sick!


Sailors? That is a joke... most of you government will save me liberal
weenies aren't deserving of the term.

===================

Roger Long ,,, ya. Long winded. If his boat ever gets wet he can call
uncle sam..... please come and save me,,, my boat is dirty ,,,,, what do I
do ,,,,, help me ,,, help me ,,,,

I'm shipping out ... leaving the port.....

The water here is polluted.

========================


"Don White" wrote in message
...
"and an authority to enforce same,"
above quote lifted from my previous reply might cover that.


Thomas Wentworth wrote:
Oh,, you mean like the roads in the USA,,, is that the kind of
environment you are talking about?

Drunk drivers, people who have no licenses, illegals driving all over and
they don't care it they kill you ..no insurance in Mexico..

And you want to bring that to the local ocean?

Are you F'n nuts?

================================================== ========================
"Don White" wrote in message
...

Thomas Wentworth wrote:

Roger ,, are you a Communist? What part of "leave me, my boat, my life,
my life on the water" out of your socialist ideas don't you get?

A fee isn't a tax? Sure,,, no, it is a fee. Are you truly so nuts as
this?

The reason we, me, us, go sailing is to get away from authority. To be
FREE. Let the wind drive us forward, the sea our friend ....

But that isn't good enough for you ,, nope. You want to ruin sailing.



Actually good sensible sailors want & need some kind of minimal
protection from irresponsible, don't tell me what to do, type of boaters.
Without rules and regulations *and an authority to enforce same*, chaos
would take over.
Not the type of environment I'd want to take my family sailing in.

Licensing alternative
 

Thomas Wentworth wrote:
Oh I see ,,, like the Border Patrol!

Or the Drug Enforcement Authority?

How dumb of me ,, of course..

======================

I always thought sailors were self sufficient ,, people who set out on the
ocean for adventure ,, risk takers ,,,

Not on this newsgroup.. nope... the government loving, uncle sam will save
me crowd is here..

What a bunch of losers. And to think I actually thought some of you might
be worth a tally ho...

I would not want you near my boat. A bunch of cry babies, you need the
government to tell you what to do, when to do it, and you even want a
license!

You make me sick!


Sailors? That is a joke... most of you government will save me liberal
weenies aren't deserving of the term.


Yea yea! And you'd be the first one crying his eyes out for the Coast
Guard to save you when (not if) you get into trouble a couple miles
offshore.

Licensing alternative
 

Dear Don, I would not call the Coast Guard or any Guard ... I take care of
myself.

I will say, at least the Coast Guard is professional at what they do.. they
aren't a bunch of "hacks" who got the job because they gave money to some
corrupt politician.

================
"Don White" wrote in message
...
Thomas Wentworth wrote:
Oh I see ,,, like the Border Patrol!

Or the Drug Enforcement Authority?

How dumb of me ,, of course..

======================

I always thought sailors were self sufficient ,, people who set out on
the ocean for adventure ,, risk takers ,,,

Not on this newsgroup.. nope... the government loving, uncle sam will
save me crowd is here..

What a bunch of losers. And to think I actually thought some of you
might be worth a tally ho...

I would not want you near my boat. A bunch of cry babies, you need the
government to tell you what to do, when to do it, and you even want a
license!

You make me sick!


Sailors? That is a joke... most of you government will save me liberal
weenies aren't deserving of the term.


Yea yea! And you'd be the first one crying his eyes out for the Coast
Guard to save you when (not if) you get into trouble a couple miles
offshore.

Licensing alternative
 

Hey Bob ,,, your the "government" ? What a joke. The "government" is
bought and paid for... ka ching

Turn on your tv, take a look.. That is your country that is being invaded by
people who don't even care that there is a BORDER... do you see any
Government stopping them?

You aren't going to fire or retain anyone ... over 90% of the incumbent
Congressmen will be re-elected. Why? Because they have the money to get
re-elected.. and where does that money come from? The big corporations who
run the USA..

This is why I can't believe anybody in his right mind would want to impose a
license on themselves as a sailor..

The money for the license is going to go to the same corrupt politicians
that all the other tax money goes to ..

Totally CRAZY.. this is totally CRAZY..

I spoke to a sailor the other day who keeps his boat in the Bahama's... he
said he never looks back.. he said the USA and its taxes, corruption, anti
boating rules and laws ... made him go offshore..

He isn't sailing back to the USA ... in fact he is buying another boat to
sail further away from this corrupt ******** we call the USA.

What once was the greatest country on earth is becoming the next third world
dump.

And you want sailors to get licenses ,,,,


Holy **** ,,, I can't even begin to believe this one.


===================================
"Bob" wrote in message
ups.com...

Thomas Wentworth wrote:
I always thought sailors were self sufficient ,, people who set out on
the
ocean for adventure ,, risk takers ,,,


Nope. Some of do it for an enjoyable way to make a living.

I would not want you near my boat. A bunch of cry babies, you need the
government to tell you what to do, when to do it, and you even want a
license!

You make me sick!

You seem to forget that we/you/I are the government.................
And come a few months it will be time to fire or retain the the current
administration.

Licensing alternative
 

Hey Dave ,,, you left one group out ;;; YOU, the taxpayer and FEE's payer.

Just take a moment to consider what and where the license money that
Commodore Long is so willing to throw away is going to go.

Boating safety? Nope.
Safe boating classes? Nope ,, take a look at the tobacco money.

Better harbors,, ? Nope


The money is going to go in some big fat ass's pocket.

But sheep like Commodore Long can't wait to give their money away. The
Commodore has been contoled for so long ( ????? ) that he can't think for
himself. He needs someone to say "you can't go out today".

I wonder if he wears the jacket with the epaulet... his boat should be named
"Gilbert and Sullivan".




"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 14:22:02 GMT, "Thomas Wentworth"
said:

Because they have the money to get
re-elected.. and where does that money come from? The big corporations

And the trial lawyers, and Hollywood, and the George Soroses and the
teachers' unions and the government employees' unions and the AFL-CIO
and........

You get the picture.

Licensing alternative
 

Thomas Wentworth wrote:
Just take a moment to consider what and where the license money that
Commodore Long is so willing to throw away is going to go.

Boating safety? Nope.
Safe boating classes? Nope ,, take a look at the tobacco money.

Better harbors,, ? Nope


The money is going to go in some big fat ass's pocket.

Humm, so this is what I hear:

1) "Nobody has the right to tell me what to do."

I gues that is because your are one very smart person. Personally I
read the national electrical code, asked a few electricians a few
questions, and thumbed through a few How-to books before replacing the
old knob and tube wiring in my home. Did the same before doing the ac
and dc wiring on my boat. Personally I could care less if a few people
who know more about wiring tell me what to do. And I could care less
about the local residential electrical code. I just did it. Why? It
made since.

2) "We are not the government. We are powerless against all the
corrupt politicians. There is nothing we can do except sail off into
the sea were nobody can tell us what to do."

Funny I lived in a town of about 15,000 people for 13 years. I knew
the mayor by name, and a few of cops, and when my ex was getting her
mandatory EOW child visit and dating a dirt bag I just went over to the
county sheriff and asked if I should be worried about my 6 year old
daughter being in the same house with a dirt bag. The Sheriff ran the
boyfriend through NCIC and gave me the whole scoop. Yes, that is not
legal, but.....
A neighbor down the street went to a city council meeting and got some
bs city ordinance changed. Personally I believe if you do not like
something, change it and stop whining like some powerless pussy. You do
have balls don't you? Or are you just another limp dick standing
around raging that everyone is picking on you?

The Republikans with all their devote bible thumpers sure have changed
the US. So get off your ass and do something besides whine. The
Republikans have. And I think now more than ever we need to protect
what few rights the Republicaks have taken away.
Lets see, would you rather have a government require you to get better
gas milage or have a govenment listen to your phone converstions, bag
and grab your ass and wake up in east poland.

To quote a frog, it aint easy being green. But better that, than some
christian bible thumping president telling me I can't **** my wife in
the ass.
Bob
(the guy who said there's no such thing as a "sneeker waver" and "we
are the government." See a pattern yet?)

Licensing alternative
 

Thomas Wentworth wrote:
Just take a moment to consider what and where the license money that
Commodore Long is so willing to throw away is going to go.

Boating safety? Nope.
Safe boating classes? Nope ,, take a look at the tobacco money.

Better harbors,, ? Nope


The money is going to go in some big fat ass's pocket.

Humm, so this is what I hear:

1) "Nobody has the right to tell me what to do."

I gues that is because your are one very smart person. Personally I
read the national electrical code, asked a few electricians a few
questions, and thumbed through a few How-to books before replacing the
old knob and tube wiring in my home. Did the same before doing the ac
and dc wiring on my boat. Personally I could care less if a few people
who know more about wiring tell me what to do. And I could care less
about the local residential electrical code. I just did it. Why? It
made since.

2) "We are not the government. We are powerless against all the
corrupt politicians. There is nothing we can do except sail off into
the sea were nobody can tell us what to do."

Funny I lived in a town of about 15,000 people for 13 years. I knew
the mayor by name, and a few of cops, and when my ex was getting her
mandatory EOW child visit and dating a dirt bag I just went over to the
county sheriff and asked if I should be worried about my 6 year old
daughter being in the same house with a dirt bag. The Sheriff ran the
boyfriend through NCIC and gave me the whole scoop. Yes, that is not
legal, but.....
A neighbor down the street went to a city council meeting and got some
bs city ordinance changed. Personally I believe if you do not like
something, change it and stop whining like some powerless pussy. You do
have balls don't you? Or are you just another limp dick standing
around raging that everyone is picking on you?

The Republikans with all their devote bible thumpers sure have changed
the US. So get off your ass and do something besides whine. The
Republikans have. And I think now more than ever we need to protect
what few rights the Republicaks have taken away.
Lets see, would you rather have a government require you to get better
gas milage or have a govenment listen to your phone converstions, bag
and grab your ass and wake up in east poland.

To quote a frog, it aint easy being green. But better that, than some
christian bible thumping president telling me I can't **** my wife in
the ass.
Bob
(the guy who said there's no such thing as a "sneeker wave" and "we are
the government." See a pattern yet?)

Licensing alternative
 

Good points.

richforman

Licensing alternative
 

Hey Bob ,, you are one of the biggest assholes on earth..

Don't respond to any posting I write.. I don't want to deal with a complete
moron.

================================
"Bob" wrote in message
oups.com...

Thomas Wentworth wrote:
Just take a moment to consider what and where the license money that
Commodore Long is so willing to throw away is going to go.

Boating safety? Nope.
Safe boating classes? Nope ,, take a look at the tobacco money.

Better harbors,, ? Nope


The money is going to go in some big fat ass's pocket.

Humm, so this is what I hear:

1) "Nobody has the right to tell me what to do."

I gues that is because your are one very smart person. Personally I
read the national electrical code, asked a few electricians a few
questions, and thumbed through a few How-to books before replacing the
old knob and tube wiring in my home. Did the same before doing the ac
and dc wiring on my boat. Personally I could care less if a few people
who know more about wiring tell me what to do. And I could care less
about the local residential electrical code. I just did it. Why? It
made since.

2) "We are not the government. We are powerless against all the
corrupt politicians. There is nothing we can do except sail off into
the sea were nobody can tell us what to do."

Funny I lived in a town of about 15,000 people for 13 years. I knew
the mayor by name, and a few of cops, and when my ex was getting her
mandatory EOW child visit and dating a dirt bag I just went over to the
county sheriff and asked if I should be worried about my 6 year old
daughter being in the same house with a dirt bag. The Sheriff ran the
boyfriend through NCIC and gave me the whole scoop. Yes, that is not
legal, but.....
A neighbor down the street went to a city council meeting and got some
bs city ordinance changed. Personally I believe if you do not like
something, change it and stop whining like some powerless pussy. You do
have balls don't you? Or are you just another limp dick standing
around raging that everyone is picking on you?

The Republikans with all their devote bible thumpers sure have changed
the US. So get off your ass and do something besides whine. The
Republikans have. And I think now more than ever we need to protect
what few rights the Republicaks have taken away.
Lets see, would you rather have a government require you to get better
gas milage or have a govenment listen to your phone converstions, bag
and grab your ass and wake up in east poland.

To quote a frog, it aint easy being green. But better that, than some
christian bible thumping president telling me I can't **** my wife in
the ass.
Bob
(the guy who said there's no such thing as a "sneeker waver" and "we
are the government." See a pattern yet?)

Licensing alternative
 

Thomas Wentworth wrote:
Hey Bob ,, you are one of the biggest assholes on earth..

Don't respond to any posting I write.. I don't want to deal with a complete
moron.

Hello Thomas:

Sounds fair to me. I certainly would not want to be intrusive.

So what offended you so much? Was it when I quoted Kermit, the frog?
Bob

Licensing alternative
 

This guy with the ripping roof had stripped his deck of all fittings to
paint and had built a 6 foot overhang with no supports at its stern.
The cane hit at his stern and in his case, there was no hope. I just
happened to be next to him. I tried to secure his boat but I think he
thought he was covered by insurance and wanted the damage. My rod
rigging was worth more then his entire boat!

Normally, I jsut a foot or two of chain from the dock to my line so
that the lines don't cut and then I use those black snubbers to give
way and the longer the line the better the hope. I had 5 feet of surge
many miles back into the north part of biscayne bay where a normal full
moon tide is only 2 feet or so.

The boats that went to anchor all ended up on a beach, or worse, they
sank. I think the official wind is at 157 sus. for our area for wilma
so with a storm like that there isn't much hope no matter what you do.

Licensing alternative
 

Dave wrote:

Nonsense. Unless you happen to be a government bureaucrat, chances that the
interests of government employees align with your own are about zip.

If you don't like the rules that the "government bureaucrat" is trying
to enforce...FIRE the SOB that YOU elected as your Senator and/or
Representative at whatever level. They're the ones who passed the
DAMNED LAW! Ask yourself when was the last time one of them rescinded a
law.

Licensing alternative
 

Steve Thrasher wrote:

Dave wrote:

Nonsense. Unless you happen to be a government bureaucrat, chances that the
interests of government employees align with your own are about zip.


If you don't like the rules that the "government bureaucrat" is trying
to enforce...FIRE the SOB that YOU elected as your Senator and/or
Representative at whatever level. They're the ones who passed the
DAMNED LAW! Ask yourself when was the last time one of them rescinded a
law.


Hello Steve:

I agree with you 100% !

I agree also that it is very difficult to get a change but it is not
impossible. Just vote the SOB out and make it clear that we butter
her/his bread. The only problem I see is that there are lots of
politicians that listen more closely to their Special Interest $
donors. But hey, just vote the smuck out.

For example, in Oregon we have a US senator who goes around talking to
people. I was sitting in a room with about 50-60 other people along
with our Dem. Senator. Last month. Got to ask two questions and get to
know the guy. It wasn't one of thoes cheesey managed "town hall
meetings" by invation only media gigs. It was the real thing.

I'll vote for him again. Why, his voting record mirrors MY idea of how
Oregon should operate.
That is how government is suppose to work!


Oh an to Dave's remarks below:

Nonsense. Unless you happen to be a government bureaucrat, chances that the
interests of government employees align with your own are about zip.

YES I was a bureaucrat. The worst kind: a volunteer bureaucrat. And
even more hoarrible............I was one of the SOBs who help teach the
mandatory "boat driver license course" in Oregon!!!!

Why? Because I wanted to make sure those idiot PWC guys didn't get a
chance to take the program over! Oh, I mean, "...to make our state's
waters a safer and more enjoyable place for all...." ;)

(Hey Steve, what kind of flamming do you think I'll get for that
remark?)

Bureaucrat Bob