Safety tether snaps
 

I think this was discussed recently here but it wasn't on my radar
screen at the time. Apologies if it’s too soon to bring it up again.

Would someone please tell me why standard snap shackles shouldn't be
used for safety harness tethers, at least on a casual cruising boat
where midnight headsail changes and spinnaker dousing isn't part of
the normal drill?

I looked at the double acting Winchard shackles that are supposed to
be the latest and greatest and the designer in me goes "Ugh". Your
fingers are in the way of what you want to clip to and the sharp edges
are going to be hard on jacklines or any other fiber. The tightwad in
me says something even less printable.

Does anyone have another recommendation for a boat where there is very
little deck work or much unclipping and moving around?

--

Roger Long

Safety tether snaps
 

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:58:11 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

Does anyone have another recommendation for a boat where there is very
little deck work or much unclipping and moving around?

I have used aluminum mountain climbing carbiners on my harness for
many years, one long tether, one short tether.

Safety tether snaps
 

Hard to undo quickly, especially if you have to switch tethers when moving
around... I can't think of any other reason.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
I think this was discussed recently here but it wasn't on my radar screen
at the time. Apologies if it's too soon to bring it up again.

Would someone please tell me why standard snap shackles shouldn't be used
for safety harness tethers, at least on a casual cruising boat where
midnight headsail changes and spinnaker dousing isn't part of the normal
drill?

I looked at the double acting Winchard shackles that are supposed to be
the latest and greatest and the designer in me goes "Ugh". Your fingers
are in the way of what you want to clip to and the sharp edges are going
to be hard on jacklines or any other fiber. The tightwad in me says
something even less printable.

Does anyone have another recommendation for a boat where there is very
little deck work or much unclipping and moving around?

--

Roger Long

Safety tether snaps
 

"Capt. JG" wrote:

Roger Long" wrote:
please tell me why standard snap shackles shouldn't be used
for safety harness tethers, at least on a casual cruising boat where
midnight headsail changes and spinnaker dousing isn't part of the normal
drill?

Hard to undo quickly, especially if you have to switch tethers when moving
around... I can't think of any other reason.

There have also been a few reports to the effect that a rescuer's
grabbing on the line of a crew-in-water attached to his or her harness
by a snap shackle with a short string attached to the movable pin, a
not uncommon ease-of-opening device attached to such shackles, might
accidentally open the shackle (too easily) - not a happy occurrence,
if the now floating away COB is not fully conscious.

Safety tether snaps
 

According to Nigel Calder (Cruising Handbook - pg. 473):

"When a carabiner-type (snap) hook twists around a pad eye it can trip
itself loose. Come type of locking hook is much safer."

He provides an photo to illustrate.

That being said, I use carabiner-type hooks I got from Bosun Supplies.
I spliced them to 3-strand nylon figuring my aged and brittle bones
would be less likely to snap given some "sproing" in the line. I seem
to only turn clockwise and thus keep getting hockles. Once every two
days I merilly spin anti-clockwise until all is well once again.

Many thanks,

Howard

Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:58:11 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:


Does anyone have another recommendation for a boat where there is very
little deck work or much unclipping and moving around?


I have used aluminum mountain climbing carbiners on my harness for
many years, one long tether, one short tether.

Safety tether snaps
 

I'll report back after a trip to the climbing store tomorrow. My
brother is a climber. We use these things hoping we'll never put a
weight on them and trying hard not to. Climbers put their full trust
in them over and over and over. They expect to fall on them and much
farther than the freeboard of any boat I've been on (except maybe that
Russian square rigger).

Salt water is an issue, of course.

--

Roger Long



"Howard" wrote in message
ervers.com...
According to Nigel Calder (Cruising Handbook - pg. 473):

"When a carabiner-type (snap) hook twists around a pad eye it can
trip itself loose. Come type of locking hook is much safer."

He provides an photo to illustrate.

That being said, I use carabiner-type hooks I got from Bosun
Supplies. I spliced them to 3-strand nylon figuring my aged and
brittle bones would be less likely to snap given some "sproing" in
the line. I seem to only turn clockwise and thus keep getting
hockles. Once every two days I merilly spin anti-clockwise until
all is well once again.

Many thanks,

Howard

Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:58:11 GMT, "Roger Long"

wrote:


Does anyone have another recommendation for a boat where there is
very little deck work or much unclipping and moving around?


I have used aluminum mountain climbing carbiners on my harness for
many years, one long tether, one short tether.

Safety tether snaps
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:58:11 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:


Does anyone have another recommendation for a boat where there is very
little deck work or much unclipping and moving around?


I have used aluminum mountain climbing carbiners on my harness for
many years, one long tether, one short tether.

Me too!

Safety tether snaps
 

Roger Long wrote:
I'll report back after a trip to the climbing store tomorrow. My
brother is a climber. We use these things hoping we'll never put a
weight on them and trying hard not to. Climbers put their full trust
in them over and over and over. They expect to fall on them and much
farther than the freeboard of any boat I've been on (except maybe that
Russian square rigger).

Salt water is an issue, of course.

You can also buy stainless carabiners for sal****er environments. Sea
Kayakers use them as do Navy special forces.

Safety tether snaps
 

Same store has a big kayak section.

--

Roger Long



"Gary" wrote in message
news:XKGUf.177142$B94.116103@pd7tw3no...
Roger Long wrote:
I'll report back after a trip to the climbing store tomorrow. My
brother is a climber. We use these things hoping we'll never put a
weight on them and trying hard not to. Climbers put their full
trust in them over and over and over. They expect to fall on them
and much farther than the freeboard of any boat I've been on
(except maybe that Russian square rigger).

Salt water is an issue, of course.

You can also buy stainless carabiners for sal****er environments.
Sea Kayakers use them as do Navy special forces.

Safety tether snaps
 

You might want to look here
http://www.setsail.com/c_central/techtalk/harness.html when thinking
about "biners" for the boat side of the harness. Experience in the 98
Sydney-Hobart showed that drowning can occur if the harness can not be
released by the wearer. I use a snap shacle on the harness side and a
biner on the boat side of my tether, but suspect there are better
set-ups.

-- Tom.

Safety tether snaps
 

I had my dinghy come unhooked about a dozen times last year due to
exactly this reason. It can happen with any spring latch hook, even
on a jackline if the line gets around it the right way. This is one
of the reasons I was asking about snap shackles.

--

Roger Long



wrote in message
oups.com...
You might want to look here
http://www.setsail.com/c_central/techtalk/harness.html when thinking
about "biners" for the boat side of the harness. Experience in the
98
Sydney-Hobart showed that drowning can occur if the harness can not
be
released by the wearer. I use a snap shacle on the harness side and
a
biner on the boat side of my tether, but suspect there are better
set-ups.

-- Tom.

Safety tether snaps
 

Gary wrote:
Roger Long wrote:

I'll report back after a trip to the climbing store tomorrow. My
brother is a climber. We use these things hoping we'll never put a
weight on them and trying hard not to. Climbers put their full trust
in them over and over and over. They expect to fall on them and much
farther than the freeboard of any boat I've been on (except maybe that
Russian square rigger).

Salt water is an issue, of course.

You can also buy stainless carabiners for sal****er environments. Sea
Kayakers use them as do Navy special forces.


I believe mine are aluminum.

Safety tether snaps
 

On 23 Mar 2006 18:31:02 -0600, Dave wrote:

I'm curious how you use these. Clip both onto the jack line or other
terminal at the same time so you can move the short one while leaving the
long one attached and vice versa?

I'll typically clip the long one to a jack line if I'm on the move,
and clip on with the short one if I'm staying put somewhere.

It's important to have a padeye near the companionway hatch so you can
clip on before going out.

Safety tether snaps
 

On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 02:50:38 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

I had my dinghy come unhooked about a dozen times last year due to
exactly this reason. It can happen with any spring latch hook, even
on a jackline if the line gets around it the right way. This is one
of the reasons I was asking about snap shackles.

I've seen lots of snap shackles release accidently for one reason or
another.

Safety tether snaps
 

Roger Long wrote:
I had my dinghy come unhooked about a dozen times last year due to
exactly this reason. It can happen with any spring latch hook, even
on a jackline if the line gets around it the right way. This is one
of the reasons I was asking about snap shackles.

You can use locking carabiners. They are designed for one handed
operation.

Safety tether snaps
 

Roger Long wrote:

Would someone please tell me why standard snap shackles shouldn't be
used for safety harness tethers, at least on a casual cruising boat
where midnight headsail changes and spinnaker dousing isn't part of
the normal drill?
Roger Long


Hi Roger:
I can not tell you why not, but I can tell why I do...

I was a hairy chested deep sea diver working the offshore oil patch in
the early 1980s. The industry standard for attaching a diver to the
umbilical was:
Diver...harness usually with 2 D-rings attached on the chest straps...
small stainless shackle on lower left D-ring connecting a snap shackle
to harness... followed by the umbilical D-ring . The idea was to attach
the umbilical to the diver and for the diver to "bail out" when
needed.

When I am on my boat and on deck I have a snap shackle attached to my
harness. I guess I am a creature of habit. Since not many of us here
have the statistics for recreational sail vessel mob events we are a
left with lots of what iffs and personal preferences. I can say this
for a fact:: the commercial diving industry requires diver side snap
shackles. But then again the tenders knew enough not to go yanking at a
diver's snap shackle. Or as I was taught, "just slip you're hand
under his harness. Then ya can drag the cocky ******* to the chamber
with no problems."

Personal preference............... I want the ability to detach myself
from any line..... instantly!

On the other hand I was one of those Big Government Liberals who always
wore my seatbelt years before it was mandatory.
Bob

Safety tether snaps
 

"Bob" wrote

I was a hairy chested deep sea diver ....
You must have enjoyed reading "Shadow Divers" I had the privilege of
working with those two characters on the Titanic expedition last
summer. (If you didn't read it, you should)

I was agree entirely about the harness end release. I was actually
asking about the free end where I have heard a lot of negative things
about the standard snap shackle that seems to work so well in other
applications.

Do you know the story of how a clip shackle killed Edwin Link's son?


--

Roger Long

Safety tether snaps
 

The Wichard type of shackles wont self release when tangled in the
teather line, etc. as do mountain climbers caribiners, etc.
(caribiners that dont have a locking 'gate' hinge). To constantly
needing to turn the ferruled hing gate lock on a mountaineers caribiner
every time you 'clip in or out' .... well you just wont do this on a
boat.

Most of such attachement shackles can quickly and surprisingly open
under load if the rope/sling slips and touches the 'gate' of the
shackle. Wichard has worked out this dangerous problem to some extent
.... but its still not foolproof, just a lot safer. You dont want to be
cheap when it comes to deck safety gear .... thats very false economy
that may cost you your life.


In article , Roger Long
wrote:

I think this was discussed recently here but it wasn't on my radar
screen at the time. Apologies if it’s too soon to bring it up again.

Would someone please tell me why standard snap shackles shouldn't be
used for safety harness tethers, at least on a casual cruising boat
where midnight headsail changes and spinnaker dousing isn't part of
the normal drill?

I looked at the double acting Winchard shackles that are supposed to
be the latest and greatest and the designer in me goes "Ugh". Your
fingers are in the way of what you want to clip to and the sharp edges
are going to be hard on jacklines or any other fiber. The tightwad in
me says something even less printable.

Does anyone have another recommendation for a boat where there is very
little deck work or much unclipping and moving around?

Safety tether snaps
 

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:58:11 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

I think this was discussed recently here but it wasn't on my radar
screen at the time. Apologies if it’s too soon to bring it up again.

Would someone please tell me why standard snap shackles shouldn't be
used for safety harness tethers, at least on a casual cruising boat
where midnight headsail changes and spinnaker dousing isn't part of
the normal drill?

I looked at the double acting Winchard shackles that are supposed to
be the latest and greatest and the designer in me goes "Ugh". Your
fingers are in the way of what you want to clip to and the sharp edges
are going to be hard on jacklines or any other fiber. The tightwad in
me says something even less printable.

Does anyone have another recommendation for a boat where there is very
little deck work or much unclipping and moving around?


I use only Wiwchar or Gibb connectors for jacklines. I have a snap
shackle on the harness end.

On a deilivery from Hawaii, I was going forward in the middle on the
night on a tether with a biner attached to the jackline. The tether
fouled on the way forward. I gave it a tuck; it came loose, but
attached itself to a genoa sheet. I will never use another similar
system.

Jack

_________________________________________
Jack Dale
ISPA Yachtmaster Offshore Instructor
CYA Advanced Cruising Instructor
http://www.swiftsuresailing.com
_________________________________________

Safety tether snaps
 

I believe the TransPacific Yacht Race to Hawaii requires that safety
harness attachment devices be releasable under load by the wearer, for
precisely that reason.

Safety tether snaps
 

Sounds like a non-lock carbiner. I wouldn't use those either.

--

Roger Long

Safety tether snaps
 

Roger-

On the body side, a snap shackle is what is recommended, as it can be
easily released under load. There are many situations where you may
not want to stay attached, and getting the tether off quickly is an
imperative. This is also a good reason to always carry a knife with
you, when on a sailboat.

On the boat side of the tether, you want something that is sal****er
corrosion resistant, which the standard climbing aluminum carabiners
really aren't designed for. You also want something that will only
come detached intentionally. The Gibb and Wichard safety snap hooks (as
opposed to snap shackles which are a different beast entirely) are much
better at staying attached to the boat than regular snap hooks or
carabiners. The mountain climbing ones have mild steel springs that
are subject to corrosion, especially the ones used in the locking
ferrules, and they are difficult to undo with one hand. Of the Gibb
and the Wichard, I prefer the Wichard, although the Gibb design is a
bit more secure. The Gibb will tend to bind up on webbing jacklines at
times, due to the secondary gate across the hook—this doesn't seem to
be an issue with the WIchard.

Given that a majority of the fatalities in boating are due to falling
overboard—because of failure to recover the COB, hypothermia setting
in, or the person drowning—I would prefer to stay on board and deal
with the slight additional expense and hassle of dual-action snap hooks
on my safety harness.

Regards,

Dan

On 2006-03-23 14:58:11 -0500, "Roger Long" said:

I think this was discussed recently here but it wasn't on my radar
screen at the time. Apologies if itÂ’s too soon to bring it up again.

Would someone please tell me why standard snap shackles shouldn't be
used for safety harness tethers, at least on a casual cruising boat
where midnight headsail changes and spinnaker dousing isn't part of the
normal drill?

I looked at the double acting Winchard shackles that are supposed to be
the latest and greatest and the designer in me goes "Ugh". Your fingers
are in the way of what you want to clip to and the sharp edges are
going to be hard on jacklines or any other fiber. The tightwad in me
says something even less printable.

Does anyone have another recommendation for a boat where there is very
little deck work or much unclipping and moving around?

Safety tether snaps
 

The regular snap shackle is what I am using on the body side for
exactly the reasons you cite.

The sea kayakers are using the cabiners so they can't be too bad in
salt water. Besides, at less than 10 bucks each, I can replace them
as frequently as needed.

The binding you mention is the primary reason I'm going with the
carbiners. There will be very little clipping and reclipping on our
boat.

The world is till waiting for a good teather snap hook design. I've
got it in my head but I don't have time to go about trying to get
someone to build and market it.

--

Roger Long



"dog" wrote in message
news:2006032509134916807-dog@nomailcom...
Roger-

On the body side, a snap shackle is what is recommended, as it can
be easily released under load. There are many situations where you
may not want to stay attached, and getting the tether off quickly is
an imperative. This is also a good reason to always carry a knife
with you, when on a sailboat.

On the boat side of the tether, you want something that is sal****er
corrosion resistant, which the standard climbing aluminum carabiners
really aren't designed for. You also want something that will only
come detached intentionally. The Gibb and Wichard safety snap hooks
(as opposed to snap shackles which are a different beast entirely)
are much better at staying attached to the boat than regular snap
hooks or carabiners. The mountain climbing ones have mild steel
springs that are subject to corrosion, especially the ones used in
the locking ferrules, and they are difficult to undo with one hand.
Of the Gibb and the Wichard, I prefer the Wichard, although the Gibb
design is a bit more secure. The Gibb will tend to bind up on
webbing jacklines at times, due to the secondary gate across the
hook-this doesn't seem to be an issue with the WIchard.

Given that a majority of the fatalities in boating are due to
falling overboard-because of failure to recover the COB, hypothermia
setting in, or the person drowning-I would prefer to stay on board
and deal with the slight additional expense and hassle of
dual-action snap hooks on my safety harness.

Regards,

Dan

On 2006-03-23 14:58:11 -0500, "Roger Long"
said:

I think this was discussed recently here but it wasn't on my radar
screen at the time. Apologies if it’s too soon to bring it up
again.

Would someone please tell me why standard snap shackles shouldn't
be used for safety harness tethers, at least on a casual cruising
boat where midnight headsail changes and spinnaker dousing isn't
part of the normal drill?

I looked at the double acting Winchard shackles that are supposed
to be the latest and greatest and the designer in me goes "Ugh".
Your fingers are in the way of what you want to clip to and the
sharp edges are going to be hard on jacklines or any other fiber.
The tightwad in me says something even less printable.

Does anyone have another recommendation for a boat where there is
very little deck work or much unclipping and moving around?