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How Long ???
How long should it take for a purchase to be completed when buying a
cruising sailboat. First, find boat and visit boat. Then, go back for second visit. Meet with owner and discuss the price etc.. Once a price has been agreed to ; draw up purchase and sales,, put money down,,, try to find a surveyor ,,, get surveyor to come and look at boat ,,,, make repairs based on survey ,, usually means going back and forth with owner... So, how long should all this take? A month? Two months? I was just wondering .. no particular reason. |
How Long ???
All I can say is that I know of at least one case where it has been
done very successfully in way, way, less time than I've been following your posts on the subject. -- Roger Long "Thomas Wentworth" wrote in message news:SVoPf.6291$Rv1.4145@trndny07... How long should it take for a purchase to be completed when buying a cruising sailboat. First, find boat and visit boat. Then, go back for second visit. Meet with owner and discuss the price etc.. Once a price has been agreed to ; draw up purchase and sales,, put money down,,, try to find a surveyor ,,, get surveyor to come and look at boat ,,,, make repairs based on survey ,, usually means going back and forth with owner... So, how long should all this take? A month? Two months? I was just wondering .. no particular reason. |
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On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 23:44:50 GMT, "Thomas Wentworth"
wrote: How long should it take for a purchase to be completed when buying a cruising sailboat. Based on my own experiences buying various boats over the years, I'd say that 4 to 6 weeks is probably typical, sometimes a bit longer. It can go a lot quicker of course if you hurry the process along but I think it's to the buyers advantage to take your time, negotiate a good price, write up a solid contract with lots of time and an airtight escape clause, do the survey and sea trial, digest the results, renegotiate the price, etc. It's a buyers market, take your time, and be prepared to walk away, maybe twice. It is a powerful negotiating strategy. |
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Well, in my case, two weeks for every thing you mention and 6 months to
convience the wife. Thomas Wentworth wrote: How long should it take for a purchase to be completed when buying a cruising sailboat. First, find boat and visit boat. Then, go back for second visit. Meet with owner and discuss the price etc.. Once a price has been agreed to ; draw up purchase and sales,, put money down,,, try to find a surveyor ,,, get surveyor to come and look at boat ,,,, make repairs based on survey ,, usually means going back and forth with owner... So, how long should all this take? A month? Two months? I was just wondering .. no particular reason. |
How Long ???
Thomas Wentworth wrote:
How long should it take for a purchase to be completed when buying a cruising sailboat. First, find boat and visit boat. Then, go back for second visit. Meet with owner and discuss the price etc.. Once a price has been agreed to ; draw up purchase and sales,, put money down,,, try to find a surveyor ,,, get surveyor to come and look at boat ,,,, make repairs based on survey ,, usually means going back and forth with owner... So, how long should all this take? A month? Two months? I was just wondering .. no particular reason. There are certainly cases where it does get prolonged, but it doesn't have to be that way. The two boats that I bought used were negotiated in a few hours, the survey was within a few days (they are used to working on short notice), and consummated within a day after the survey. The last purchase I think we were told about the boat on Tuesday, went aboard on Wednesday, surveyed on Friday, and wrote the check that night. My last sale was handled long distance though a broker with some give and take, but I think that took under two weeks from the time the boat was shown. The only reason for it to take a long time is if there are unresolved issues from the survey, such as an engine that can't be started; this can require an escrow. A friend bought an older boat after the survey showed rot under the deck. I think that purchase was delayed about a week so that estimates could be made and the price adjusted downward about $5K. But still, it was all handled in well less than a month. Purchasing at a distance can be a problem because you have to find a surveyor, but if its local, you should already have a surveyor lined up. Never, ever ask the selling broker if he can recommend a surveyor, unless you only want a good report for insurance/loan purposes. What you really want is a survey the has 10 pages of problems reported on a boat that looks perfect. Personally, I don't think this should be used to lower the price unless there is a specific serious problem uncovered, but the survey should provide you with several years worth of odd jobs. |
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On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 20:45:36 -0500, Jeff wrote:
Personally, I don't think this should be used to lower the price unless there is a specific serious problem uncovered, I disagree. If the survey and/or sea trial turns up issues that you did not know about at the time of your offer, you are perfectly entitled to renogotiate. Some sellers will stone wall on that. If so, excercise your purchase contract option to reject the vessel and notify both the seller and broker via fax and letter. You did include that clause in your agreement, right? That will usually get things moving again quickly. The broker is eager to see the deal go down and will put a lot of pressure on the seller. |
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Thomas Wentworth wrote:
How long should it take for a purchase to be completed when buying a cruising sailboat. First, find boat and visit boat. Then, go back for second visit. Meet with owner and discuss the price etc.. Once a price has been agreed to ; draw up purchase and sales,, put money down,,, try to find a surveyor ,,, get surveyor to come and look at boat ,,,, make repairs based on survey ,, usually means going back and forth with owner... So, how long should all this take? A month? Two months? I was just wondering .. no particular reason. First boat: Look at boat, make offer 10 minutes later. Broker says go and sit on the boat for another 1/2 hour so you'll be sure. Go back in 1/2 hour, make offer, put down deposit cheque. Broker calls owner. We haggle over the price for 10 minutes and come to an agreement. Survey the next weekend, money changes hands that day, we own a boat. Total time = 8 days 2nd boat: Look at boat, make low ball offer, get call back the next day, agree on price. self-survey that week one lunch time (I work close to the boat). Have it 4 or 5 days. 3rd boat: Go and look at boat. Go and look again in a month. Think a bit and make an offer. Go back and forth for a few days, agree on price. Survey in 2 weeks because it's hard to find a place to haul a 23' wide boat. Survey, haggle over items found, send certified cheque by courier in a few days. Total time about 3-4 weeks. Evan Gatehouse |
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Evan Gatehouse wrote:
Thomas Wentworth wrote: How long should it take for a purchase to be completed when buying a cruising sailboat. First, find boat and visit boat. Then, go back for second visit. Meet with owner and discuss the price etc.. Once a price has been agreed to ; draw up purchase and sales,, put money down,,, try to find a surveyor ,,, get surveyor to come and look at boat ,,,, make repairs based on survey ,, usually means going back and forth with owner... So, how long should all this take? A month? Two months? I was just wondering .. no particular reason. First boat: Look at boat, make offer 10 minutes later. Broker says go and sit on the boat for another 1/2 hour so you'll be sure. Go back in 1/2 hour, make offer, put down deposit cheque. Broker calls owner. We haggle over the price for 10 minutes and come to an agreement. Survey the next weekend, money changes hands that day, we own a boat. Total time = 8 days 2nd boat: Look at boat, make low ball offer, get call back the next day, agree on price. self-survey that week one lunch time (I work close to the boat). Have it 4 or 5 days. 3rd boat: Go and look at boat. Go and look again in a month. Think a bit and make an offer. Go back and forth for a few days, agree on price. Survey in 2 weeks because it's hard to find a place to haul a 23' wide boat. Survey, haggle over items found, send certified cheque by courier in a few days. Total time about 3-4 weeks. Evan Gatehouse One must assume he has the cash. If a marine mortgage is involved and the boat is not registered, (I'm talking about the UK, not US), it could take a faily long time as the various previous owners have to be traced before the mortgage can be set up by the finance company. About 6-7 weeks in the UK. If the cash is available, then the only delay is likely to be the survey report and it's resultant haggling. If the survey is satisfactory, and a broker is involved, make him earn his fee by pressurising him to hurry the sale through. Impose penalty clauses in writing to enforce this. These guys get away with murder, and are employed by YOU to see that the sale goes through quickly and smoothly. Use 'em! |
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Roger,,,, if the Captain of the Titanic had taken his time, slowed the ship
down, and avoided the iceburg; YOU WOULDN'T BE VISITING THE WRECK 21/2 MILES UNDER THE SEA! Patience Roger ... ================== ps... I like your posts,, they always get me going. --- instead of "Roger Long" wrote in message ... All I can say is that I know of at least one case where it has been done very successfully in way, way, less time than I've been following your posts on the subject. -- Roger Long "Thomas Wentworth" wrote in message news:SVoPf.6291$Rv1.4145@trndny07... How long should it take for a purchase to be completed when buying a cruising sailboat. First, find boat and visit boat. Then, go back for second visit. Meet with owner and discuss the price etc.. Once a price has been agreed to ; draw up purchase and sales,, put money down,,, try to find a surveyor ,,, get surveyor to come and look at boat ,,,, make repairs based on survey ,, usually means going back and forth with owner... So, how long should all this take? A month? Two months? I was just wondering .. no particular reason. |
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Hey, Roger .... if the boat deal falls through ,,, there is always Spring
Break! ================ CHICAGO - The American Medical Association is warning girls not to go wild during spring break. All but confirming what goes on in those "Girls Gone Wild" videos, 83 percent of college women and graduates surveyed by the AMA said spring break involves heavier-than-usual drinking, and 74 percent said the break results in increased sexual activity. The women's answers were based both on firsthand experience and the experiences of friends and acquaintances. Sizable numbers reported getting sick from drinking, and blacking out and engaging in unprotected sex or sex with more than one partner, activities that increase their risks for sexually transmitted diseases and unwanted pregnancies. The AMA is trying to call attention to underage drinking among women because their bodies process alcohol differently and put them at greater risk for health problems, Dr. J. Edward Hill, AMA's president, said Tuesday. The AMA-commissioned online survey queried a nationwide random sample of 644 college women or graduates ages 17 to 35 last week. Kathleen Fitzgerald, a 21-year-old junior at Illinois State University, said the AMA's effort to raise awareness is a good idea, but probably won't do much to curb drinking during spring break. "I think a lot of students wouldn't really pay that much attention to it," Fitzgerald said. "They would just be like, `Duh, that's why we do it.'" About 30 percent of women surveyed said spring break trips with sun and alcohol are an essential part of college life. Also, 74 percent said women use spring break drinking as an excuse for "outrageous" behavior that the AMA said could include public nudity and dancing on tables. Of the 27 percent who said they had attended a college spring break trip: _More than half said they regretted getting sick from drinking on the trip. _About 40 percent said they regretted passing out or not remembering what they did. _13 percent said they had sexual activity with more than one partner. _10 percent said they regretted engaging in public or group sexual activity. _More than half were underage when they first drank alcohol on a spring break trip. The AMA said the findings highlight the need for alternative spring break activities. For example, the University of Nebraska, Lehigh University in Bethlehem, Pa., and the University of Wisconsin offer spring break "service" trips. Gemma Kite, a 21-year-old Lehigh junior, is in Brunswick, Ga., for spring break this week, helping build a house for Habitat for Humanity. "It's so much fun. We're working outside in the sun," Kite said. She said many students see spring break as "your chance to go wild and crazy in a different country where no one's going to know you." Kite admitted those trips have a certain appeal, and she hopes to take a more party-oriented vacation next year. "I like to have my fun," Kite said. ___ "Roger Long" wrote in message ... All I can say is that I know of at least one case where it has been done very successfully in way, way, less time than I've been following your posts on the subject. -- Roger Long |
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Duh? I don't see the average boat owner walking out on a purchase because
the fire extinguisher isn't working just right ... But,,, when the surveyor says "you know, it looks like your gonna need a whole bunch of deck work don't on this boat, the deck core is full of moisture" .. Then,,, walk? No run. Or, sit down and discuss. Let's face it,, the buyer wants to buy and the seller wants to sell..... -------------- "Dave" wrote in message ... On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 23:00:12 -0500, Wayne.B said: I disagree. If the survey and/or sea trial turns up issues that you did not know about at the time of your offer, you are perfectly entitled to renogotiate. Some sellers will stone wall on that. If so, excercise your purchase contract option to reject the vessel and notify both the seller and broker via fax and letter. You did include that clause in your agreement, right? The survey will virtually always turn up some issue you didn't know about when you made your offer. If I'm the seller, and it's a bunch of minor items that are within the range of what you'd expect, I'm gonna tell the buyer I have no problem with his walking, but the agreed price isn't gonna change. Most buyers at that point want the boat more than they want to beat their chests about how they hondled down the price. If it's something significant, it's a different story. When we bought our last boat, no water came out the exhaust when we did initial sea trials. Had to have an exhaust elbow replaced. This was something significant enough that if the price hadn't been adjusted to cover it I'd have walked. |
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On 8 Mar 2006 12:41:02 -0600, Dave wrote:
That sounds good at first blush. But I don't think so. Example: the surveyor points out that a fitting on the boat's gasoline engine is leaking. The required repair is to get out a wrench and tighten the fitting. Insurer prolly won't insure with that problem uncorrected. Not safe to use it with that problem uncorrected. But if I'm the seller, and the buyer asks for an adjustment I say "You want out of the contract, here's your deposit. I'll tighten the fitting and sell the boat to somebody else." That's a minor repair by anyones definition and typically would be fixed by the seller at his expense. It is very rare however for a boat of any significant age to come through a survey without some previously undiscovered items showing up, and as we all know, almost everything costs more to repair than we would like. The broker has an issue at this point as well as the seller. If the broker has seen the survey items of things that need repair, he is in a difficult ethical dilemna with subsequent deals if the first purchaser walks away. How many boats have you sold recently with that kind of attitude? It's a buyers market out there and most sellers are thrilled just to have a live buyer in hand, and will do just about anything to make sure the deal goes down. |
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Oh come on! Apply some of that not at all common common sense.
Cost to tighten fitting? - $0.00 Adjustment to sale prince? - $0.00 Buying the boat you want? - Priceless. I'm talking about where the surveyor discovers something like a pinhole leak in the gas tank fiberglassed into the bilge. No way you'll get insurance after that has been identified without committing a bit of fraud. If the owner had discovered it and wanted to keep the boat, he would be out the cost of fixing it. Now that you and he have agreed on a price and both of you assume that the tank was sound, he's out the same amount but you're the one who has to deal with getting it fixed. -- Roger Long "Dave" wrote in message ... On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 18:17:59 GMT, "Roger Long" said: A good test for whether something turned up on the survey should effect the price is whether the boat can be insured and used safely after the sale. That sounds good at first blush. But I don't think so. Example: the surveyor points out that a fitting on the boat's gasoline engine is leaking. The required repair is to get out a wrench and tighten the fitting. Insurer prolly won't insure with that problem uncorrected. Not safe to use it with that problem uncorrected. But if I'm the seller, and the buyer asks for an adjustment I say "You want out of the contract, here's your deposit. I'll tighten the fitting and sell the boat to somebody else." |
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"Dave" wrote
Of course it is. I mentioned it solely to demonstrate that your proposed test of safety and insurability is a silly and useless test. No, you sized on my failure to burden all the other readers of this newsgroup with all the words to point out the obvious fact that this is a principle that can be used to guide the judgement and common sense of reasonable people and not an ironclad idea that they need to be enslaved to. The key words are "silly and useless" which so many people are just so itching to use that they make these newsgroups a lot less useful and enjoyable to read than if everyone would exercise a little common sense and judgement. -- Roger Long |
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Dave ,,, here is an example of a problem that I haven't read about here...
Hypothetical story; Buyer finds boat ,, boat is looking pretty good. Buyer and Seller come to terms on price, subject to survey. The survey turns up deck problems. Say, some of the deck core is rotten and the deck will need repair. Then, refinish I suppose. The Buyer decides to look around for a repair .. so that he/she can factor in the repair cost and ask the Seller to work with him/her to get the repair done and the deal done. One problem.. the boatyards are so expensive that their repair will kill the deal. What does the Buyer do now? The Buyer can't go through with the deal even though he/she wants to buy the boat. Does the Buyer approach the Seller and say "find a repair guy or the deals's off" ? I suppose that would be the case. I guess what I am asking is: What happens if the repair isn't that complicated but there isn't any affordable repair people in the area? === "Dave" wrote in message ... On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 16:59:41 GMT, "Thomas Wentworth" said: Duh? I don't see the average boat owner walking out on a purchase because the fire extinguisher isn't working just right ... Skip the "Duh" crap, Thomas. It betrays your own limitations, not mine. That was precisely my point. However, depending on what part of the country you live in you may find a lot of potential buyers who feel they have to try and haggle the last dime on the price. That kind of buyer tries to take quite literally Wayne's "issues that you did not know about at the time of your offer." The back of my hand to such a buyer. |
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On 8 Mar 2006 14:30:01 -0600, Dave wrote:
Of course it is. I mentioned it solely to demonstrate that your proposed test of safety and insurability is a silly and useless test. That was not my proposal, someone else. My personal criteria is one or more conditions unknown before the survey that will collectively cost more than a thousand or so to repair. Below that price I expect the seller to make the repair at his expense. Over that, I wan't a price adjustment so that I can make the repair myself and insure that it is done correctly. It has been my experience that almost all boats older than 5 to 10 years will have some non trivial issue turn up in the survey. I have no qualms about asking the seller to adjust the price because it has also been my experience that the survey will miss a few things that are non trivial to fix. I've never had this happen, but if the survey turned up a major structural or mechanical issue, I would walk away from the deal and thank the surveyor. |
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Hypothetical? Give us a break. Few of us were born yesterday.
Screw the deck core problems and go look at this 1981 Endeavor 32 Listing ID 38308-1494712 St. Augustine Yacht Sales Phone 904-829-1589 I don't know squat about this boat or this broker or this boat but, if my boat yard called up and said my boat burned up last night, I'd be on the plane tomorrow with the insurance check in my hand to look at this one. That's the judgement of a lifetime with boats and a year of sailing and refitting ours. These boats are all solid glass with a minimum of construction features that can lead to repairs requiring major disassembly. They have very sensibly designed interiors that stay light, airy, and well ventilated. There is lots of wood. Much of the construction detailing give the impression that they were built by hobbits (close neat fits but almost nothing is straight) but it gives them a certain charm often lacking in glass boats. Shoal draft, a good turn of speed in cruising terms, wonderful handling characteristics, great cockpit, comfortable and reassuring motion. You can find a boat that does almost anything better but few that sum it all together as well. They are almost always priced below comparable boats. Our boat was listed at the same price as this one and we got it for 15 K. -- Roger Long "Thomas Wentworth" wrote in message news:zCKPf.19059$6h1.6393@trndny09... Dave ,,, here is an example of a problem that I haven't read about here... Hypothetical story; Buyer finds boat ,, boat is looking pretty good. Buyer and Seller come to terms on price, subject to survey. The survey turns up deck problems. Say, some of the deck core is rotten and the deck will need repair. Then, refinish I suppose. The Buyer decides to look around for a repair .. so that he/she can factor in the repair cost and ask the Seller to work with him/her to get the repair done and the deal done. One problem.. the boatyards are so expensive that their repair will kill the deal. What does the Buyer do now? The Buyer can't go through with the deal even though he/she wants to buy the boat. Does the Buyer approach the Seller and say "find a repair guy or the deals's off" ? I suppose that would be the case. I guess what I am asking is: What happens if the repair isn't that complicated but there isn't any affordable repair people in the area? === "Dave" wrote in message ... On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 16:59:41 GMT, "Thomas Wentworth" said: Duh? I don't see the average boat owner walking out on a purchase because the fire extinguisher isn't working just right ... Skip the "Duh" crap, Thomas. It betrays your own limitations, not mine. That was precisely my point. However, depending on what part of the country you live in you may find a lot of potential buyers who feel they have to try and haggle the last dime on the price. That kind of buyer tries to take quite literally Wayne's "issues that you did not know about at the time of your offer." The back of my hand to such a buyer. |
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Thomas Wentworth wrote:
Dave ,,, here is an example of a problem that I haven't read about here... Hypothetical story; Buyer finds boat ,, boat is looking pretty good. Buyer and Seller come to terms on price, subject to survey. I wonder how your contract is worded. Many 'standard forms' are worded such that you (the buyer) are liable to pay for all kinds of things as well as giving up your deposit, regrdless of the *result* of the survey & sea trial. I don't know of such contracts being tested in court. But I do know of a lot of brokers who are very very slow to return deposits on deals that fall thru because of major discrepancies in the survey. When my wife & I were seriously boat shopping a few years back, I sat down with our lawyer and wrote out my own sales contract. When we made offers on boats, I gave it to the broker... a few said "No, we only use our own contract form" and we walked. Most of them then said, "Wait, come back, we'll be glad to use your form." The survey turns up deck problems. Say, some of the deck core is rotten and the deck will need repair. Then, refinish I suppose. Refinishing is a minor job if the deck panel is cut out carefully & put back in place properly. The Buyer decides to look around for a repair .. so that he/she can factor in the repair cost and ask the Seller to work with him/her to get the repair done and the deal done. One problem.. the boatyards are so expensive that their repair will kill the deal. What does the Buyer do now? 1- walk away, there are lots of boats out there for sale. 2- get the buyer to drop the price by the amount of the repair, knowing that the repair will actually cost a minimum of estimate +10%. 3- buy the boat anyway and regret it. 4- buy the boat anyway, ignore the problem, and have fun. The Buyer can't go through with the deal even though he/she wants to buy the boat. Why does the buyer want to buy a headache? Is the buyer friggin' nuts? I guess what I am asking is: What happens if the repair isn't that complicated but there isn't any affordable repair people in the area? Either move the boat or fix it yourself. Deck core repairs aren't hard. I've done it so it must be pretty easy ;) Tom, less hand-wringing, OK? It's not becoming in a grown man and potential cruising sailor. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
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"DSK" wrote
Tom, less hand-wringing, OK? It's not becoming in a grown man and potential cruising sailor. Wow! Look at that. Hit that nail right on the head and drove it flush with a single swipe:) -- Roger Long |
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On Thu, 09 Mar 2006 13:02:47 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote: Tom, less hand-wringing, OK? It's not becoming in a grown man and potential cruising sailor. Wow! Look at that. Hit that nail right on the head and drove it flush with a single swipe:) Indeed, chuckle. |
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On 9 Mar 2006 11:51:01 -0600, Dave wrote:
One way it's sometimes dealt with is to provide something like if the estimated cost of repairs is less that, say $1,000, the seller may at his option either make the repair at his own cost and require the buyer to complete the contract, or cancel the contract. I always write my purchase contract to have an acceptance period after the survey is complete, typically 7 to 10 days. During that time you can accept the boat as is, attempt to renegotiate the price, or reject with full refund. That is a much more flexible arrangement than trying to spell out exact terms and conditions. If the seller refuses to renegotiate and/or fix to my satisfaction, I fire off the rejection letter. That has always gotten things moving again. |
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Roger that, Roger ... but this is actually a hypothetical story... in
anticipation of the real deal.. As I have been mucking about boats, especially the old ones which I love, the deck keeps getting more and more attention. Most items on a boat are dealable. But, the deck? For the fun of it I called a boatyard and asked "what is the going rate for a deck refinish job"? The guy said they just finished one and it cost $30,000! I'm not kidding! I almost fell over, well I was on the phone so more like dropped the phone. When I was younger and dump as a stump, I bought a full keel boat. Took a look, bought it, and went sailing. Never had much in the way of problems... the AT4 did die. Now, I read Casey's book, and worry. Too many stories about people who buy low and then find out later why the boat was "low". ---- "Roger Long" wrote in message ... Hypothetical? Give us a break. Few of us were born yesterday. Screw the deck core problems and go look at this 1981 Endeavor 32 Listing ID 38308-1494712 St. Augustine Yacht Sales Phone 904-829-1589 I don't know squat about this boat or this broker or this boat but, if my boat yard called up and said my boat burned up last night, I'd be on the plane tomorrow with the insurance check in my hand to look at this one. That's the judgement of a lifetime with boats and a year of sailing and refitting ours. These boats are all solid glass with a minimum of construction features that can lead to repairs requiring major disassembly. They have very sensibly designed interiors that stay light, airy, and well ventilated. There is lots of wood. Much of the construction detailing give the impression that they were built by hobbits (close neat fits but almost nothing is straight) but it gives them a certain charm often lacking in glass boats. Shoal draft, a good turn of speed in cruising terms, wonderful handling characteristics, great cockpit, comfortable and reassuring motion. You can find a boat that does almost anything better but few that sum it all together as well. They are almost always priced below comparable boats. Our boat was listed at the same price as this one and we got it for 15 K. -- Roger Long "Thomas Wentworth" wrote in message news:zCKPf.19059$6h1.6393@trndny09... Dave ,,, here is an example of a problem that I haven't read about here... Hypothetical story; Buyer finds boat ,, boat is looking pretty good. Buyer and Seller come to terms on price, subject to survey. The survey turns up deck problems. Say, some of the deck core is rotten and the deck will need repair. Then, refinish I suppose. The Buyer decides to look around for a repair .. so that he/she can factor in the repair cost and ask the Seller to work with him/her to get the repair done and the deal done. One problem.. the boatyards are so expensive that their repair will kill the deal. What does the Buyer do now? The Buyer can't go through with the deal even though he/she wants to buy the boat. Does the Buyer approach the Seller and say "find a repair guy or the deals's off" ? I suppose that would be the case. I guess what I am asking is: What happens if the repair isn't that complicated but there isn't any affordable repair people in the area? === "Dave" wrote in message ... On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 16:59:41 GMT, "Thomas Wentworth" said: Duh? I don't see the average boat owner walking out on a purchase because the fire extinguisher isn't working just right ... Skip the "Duh" crap, Thomas. It betrays your own limitations, not mine. That was precisely my point. However, depending on what part of the country you live in you may find a lot of potential buyers who feel they have to try and haggle the last dime on the price. That kind of buyer tries to take quite literally Wayne's "issues that you did not know about at the time of your offer." The back of my hand to such a buyer. |
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On 9 Mar 2006 14:05:02 -0600, Dave wrote:
I guess some folks want to buy boats and others want to show what big dicks they have. Uncalled for in my opinion. The process is all about buying the right boat at the right price. Virtually all sellers have an inflated view of what their boat is worth, and virtually all boats have undisclosed problems. It is your job as a buyer to bring some reality back into the picture. Unless of course, you enjoy over paying. Perhaps some people do. You were giving out bad advice in my opinion and I consider it my job to set the record straight. You sound like a dealer or broker to me. |
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On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 00:45:57 GMT, "Thomas Wentworth"
wrote: Too many stories about people who buy low and then find out later why the boat was "low". That's why picking the right surveyor and learning to read between the lines of his report is such an important part of the process. A good surveyor will always save you money, sometimes a lot of it. In the world of older sail boats, there are a lot of negative value hulls out there. These are the boats that will cost more to fix up and make seaworthy than they will ever be worth again. |
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Wayne,, I think Dave is even worse than a boat broker ... a LAWYER!
Like we don't have enough LAWYERS? ----------------------- "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On 9 Mar 2006 14:05:02 -0600, Dave wrote: I guess some folks want to buy boats and others want to show what big dicks they have. Uncalled for in my opinion. The process is all about buying the right boat at the right price. Virtually all sellers have an inflated view of what their boat is worth, and virtually all boats have undisclosed problems. It is your job as a buyer to bring some reality back into the picture. Unless of course, you enjoy over paying. Perhaps some people do. You were giving out bad advice in my opinion and I consider it my job to set the record straight. You sound like a dealer or broker to me. |
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On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 16:04:45 GMT, "Thomas Wentworth"
wrote: Wayne,, I think Dave is even worse than a boat broker ... a LAWYER! Like we don't have enough LAWYERS? Careful now, my oldest son is about to become one. I'll try not to hold it against him. :-) I made the comment about Dave because he seemed to be spouting the party line from the seller side, and some people actually believe that sort of thing. Truth is, everything is negotiable and no one should ever give a deposit or sign a purchase agreement without putting the maximum amount of buyer protection into it. We had the same issue when buying a house here in Florida three years ago. The FL realtors all have a standard purchase agreement form that they want you to sign. When I read it, there was little or no protection for the buyer if the inspection report turned up a serious problem. I insisted on the same sort of verbiage that is in my boat purchase agreements, where I reserved the right to reject the house for 7 days after the inspection. They eventually agreed to my wording and it saved me the cost of a new roof. |
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On 10 Mar 2006 10:27:09 -0600, Dave wrote:
Nope. Just somebody who thinks buying or selling a boat should be a matter of spelling out what each party expects in advance The problem is that it is just about impossible to anticipate every single issue that may pop up in the survey, or the reaction of the seller. That's why I consider it vitally important to have an escape clause, and it doesn't really matter if we are talking boats, houses, cars or something else. |
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Nope. Just somebody who thinks buying or selling a boat should be a matter
of spelling out what each party expects in advance Wayne.B wrote: The problem is that it is just about impossible to anticipate every single issue that may pop up in the survey, or the reaction of the seller. That's why I consider it vitally important to have an escape clause, and it doesn't really matter if we are talking boats, houses, cars or something else. The issue here is that the buyer does not expect to be forced to complete the sale of a boat with a serious problem, hitherto unkown, turned on the survey; it is in the seller's interest (and the brokers) to at least have some legal phrases in the contract to browbeat him with. That's why I agree with Wayne and also wrote my own sales contract. Most "standard contracts" have words to the effect of "approval subject to survey" which is not very specific, it certainly does not specifically spell out that the buyer can reject the boat AND get his deposit back, in the event of discovered problems that he doesn't like & the seller will not dicker over. You also hear people talk about a boat 'passing' the survey, there is not a grade issued so a boat can neither pass nor fail. It should also be noted the dollar value assigned has more meaning to the insurance company than to the buyer. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
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Of course it is. I mentioned it solely to demonstrate that your proposed
test of safety and insurability is a silly and useless test. Not hardly, some boats are very difficult to insure... and would you rely on the broker to tell you that? Wayne.B wrote: That was not my proposal, someone else. My personal criteria is one or more conditions unknown before the survey that will collectively cost more than a thousand or so to repair. Below that price I expect the seller to make the repair at his expense. Over that, I wan't a price adjustment so that I can make the repair myself and insure that it is done correctly. It has been my experience that almost all boats older than 5 to 10 years will have some non trivial issue turn up in the survey. Agreed. The scary part is that the surveyor *will* miss something. You just hope he doesn't miss a biggy. .... I have no qualms about asking the seller to adjust the price because it has also been my experience that the survey will miss a few things that are non trivial to fix. I've never had this happen, but if the survey turned up a major structural or mechanical issue, I would walk away from the deal and thank the surveyor. Agreed again, and I *have* had this happen. My wife & I were very serious about buying a trawler that turned out to have been sunk. There were a number of things I didn't like about the boat, but the pickings were slim so we were going ahead. The surveyor poked his head into a couple of nooks & crannies & had not, and said "Hey did you see this mud line?" Then we hunted thru the boat together and found some major cracked structural members. Another important thing: *be there* when your surveyor does his inspection. You will learn a lot. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
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On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 15:25:08 -0500, DSK wrote:
My wife & I were very serious about buying a trawler that turned out to have been sunk. And of course the seller just sort of forgot to tell you... My biggest concern is that the surveyor will miss a major problem that doesn't surface until after the deal has closed. You really don't have a lot of recourse other than suing the surveyor, seller and broker but it will take a long time to resolve and in the end you may collect nothing. |
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"Wayne.B" wrote
You really don't have a lot of recourse other than suing .... Sheesh! No wonder people like me have to give up flying, doctors have to give up practicing medicine, we're all paying through the nose for insurance. For cripes sake! Buying a boat is something you as an adult take responsibility for. Everything that may go wrong isn't someone else's fault. The survey report is just a guide to your judgement to be backed up and utilized with all the other information available. You ultimately are captain of the process. The surveyor is like an aid to navigation. It's still your responsibility to see that the boat gets where it's going without running aground even if the buoy drifted out of position, the channel was located on the chart from a 1890 datum, the channel shoaled, the third mate forgot to fill the day tank, the compass wasn't adjusted properly, etc, etc. I can't believe that people who profess to be ready to go out and be masters of vessels are filling this newsgroup with this whining. (Wayne, I know you probably actually agree with this but I'm just taking you wording as a soapbox to jump up on.) -- Roger Long |
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On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 21:38:21 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote You really don't have a lot of recourse other than suing .... Sheesh! No wonder people like me have to give up flying, doctors have to give up practicing medicine, we're all paying through the nose for insurance. ======================== I didn't say it was a good recourse, and certainly not one to be taken lightly, but it is just about your only option if somthing truly major pops up - sort of like the wings falling off your new plane as it takes off for the first time. :-) |
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New planes, that's a different matter. When it comes to old planes,
even a few weeks old, there is a principle in aviation regulations that is far more true of boats than most of us realize. If the wings fall off the plane, it's the fault of the pilot. The pilot is captain of the aircraft. Just like the captain of a ship, he (or she) was supposed to have been aware enough of how the maintenance was being conducted to be sure that the bolts the hold the wings on were tightened. If he knows he has a great maintenance crew, he may responsibly let it go at that. If he knows that the company has hired a bunch of jerks, he should go look at the bolts himself. This isn't always fair. If a ship loses it's steering and goes up on the rocks because someone in the black gang didn't grease the steering gear, it's the captain's fault. True, the captain can't be expected to go down and check the greasing of every piece of equipment but he's supposed to be aware enough of the quality of his crew and exercise enough oversight of the staff in the chain of command that he can be sure that stuff is getting done. RESPONSIBILITY MEANS THAT SOMEONE CAN LET YOU DOWN THROUGH NO FAULT OF YOUR OWN AND IT'S STILL YOUR FAULT! If you don't like it, get another hobby. Stamp collecting is nice and relaxing. A surveyor may really screw you up but evaluating the surveyor and the quality of his work is part of your job as a boat owner. He works for you. You are his boss and his supervisor. You are buying a boat. You are going to be captain of it and that responsibility starts when you decide to buy it. You may not know enough to fully fulfil these responsibilities but, welcome to real life, you are NEVER going to know enough and have enough experience to carry the responsibilities given you with complete confidence that nothing will happen. The whole damn society is falling apart because nobody will take goddamn responsibility for anything anymore. That's why I flew planes and sail boats. Because, when I accept that complete responsibility and hold my fate in my hands (along with anybody foolish enough to tag along) I'm truly alive. -- Roger Long "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 21:38:21 GMT, "Roger Long" wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote You really don't have a lot of recourse other than suing .... Sheesh! No wonder people like me have to give up flying, doctors have to give up practicing medicine, we're all paying through the nose for insurance. ======================== I didn't say it was a good recourse, and certainly not one to be taken lightly, but it is just about your only option if somthing truly major pops up - sort of like the wings falling off your new plane as it takes off for the first time. :-) |
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On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 00:21:51 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote: All I can say is that I know of at least one case where it has been done very successfully in way, way, less time than I've been following your posts on the subject. Heh. Fair winds, Roger. R. |
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My wife & I were
very serious about buying a trawler that turned out to have been sunk. Wayne.B wrote: And of course the seller just sort of forgot to tell you... I don't think he forgot, but I think he didn't know the whole story... in fact I think 'deliberate ignorance' would cover his approach, since he is not required to disclose what he doesn't "know." Actually the shiftiness of the broker was already setting off alarm bells. This boat did sell, two or three years later. I sometimes wonder who bought it. My biggest concern is that the surveyor will miss a major problem that doesn't surface until after the deal has closed. You really don't have a lot of recourse other than suing the surveyor, seller and broker but it will take a long time to resolve and in the end you may collect nothing. I don't think the surveyor is liable, quite frankly. If there was something major and that would be extremely obvious to a competent professional, you might take a swing at it. Another thing is, most people are already reluctant to pay a surveyor for a full day of inspecting. And most people are more interested in whether the hot water works. So if you don't write a blank check & say, "take as much time as you need to thoroughly inspect absolutely every single thing on the boat," then the surveyor can rightfully say that the buyer did not cover his bets. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
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The surveyor is also just a more (very important word "more")
knowledgable person. He is not psychic. If he was, he would be making millions on Wall Street instead of crawling around the bilges of old boats. The surveyor is also struggling against the fact that, if he did the job every buyer wants him to do, he wouldn't get enough work to stay in business. It's the same kind of bind many professions are in. The airline pilot isn't supposed to endanger his passengers by flying in very bad weather but the dispatcher is telling him, "If you don't take this flight, we'll find someone who will." Most survey referrals come from brokers and boatyards who like to see boats move. My brief surveying career came to an end because I thought the owner should end up with a complete list and plan for the first couple of years of upgrades and fixes. My goal was the the buyer have no surprises during the honeymoon period. I'd say, "This is a great boat, here are the things it needs done." The yardowner would come out screaming, "You trashed a perfectly good boat. Don't expect me to recommend you again." In the sunken boat case, forget about suing the surveyor. Your job as a boat buyer was to hire someone competent. You screwed up. Picking the right surveyor is actually harder than picking the right boat. However, if you find an obvious scum line in the boat, start asking around, and someone tells you that the surveyor was onboard just after it was raised and he was recommended by the yard that raised it, it might be worth pursuing. You've got to have some evidence of intentional wrongdoing or utter incompetence; not just something missed. Otherwise, you will just be one of the people pushing us closer to the day when boating will be like aviation and a lot of other things, there either won't be any surveyors or surveys will cost $5000 for a 30 foot boat to cover the surveyor's malpractice insurance. -- Roger Long "DSK" wrote in message ... My wife & I were very serious about buying a trawler that turned out to have been sunk. Wayne.B wrote: And of course the seller just sort of forgot to tell you... I don't think he forgot, but I think he didn't know the whole story... in fact I think 'deliberate ignorance' would cover his approach, since he is not required to disclose what he doesn't "know." Actually the shiftiness of the broker was already setting off alarm bells. This boat did sell, two or three years later. I sometimes wonder who bought it. My biggest concern is that the surveyor will miss a major problem that doesn't surface until after the deal has closed. You really don't have a lot of recourse other than suing the surveyor, seller and broker but it will take a long time to resolve and in the end you may collect nothing. I don't think the surveyor is liable, quite frankly. If there was something major and that would be extremely obvious to a competent professional, you might take a swing at it. Another thing is, most people are already reluctant to pay a surveyor for a full day of inspecting. And most people are more interested in whether the hot water works. So if you don't write a blank check & say, "take as much time as you need to thoroughly inspect absolutely every single thing on the boat," then the surveyor can rightfully say that the buyer did not cover his bets. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
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On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 12:34:36 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote: You've got to have some evidence of intentional wrongdoing or utter incompetence; not just something missed. Otherwise, you will just be one of the people pushing us closer to the day when boating will be like aviation and a lot of other things, there either won't be any surveyors or surveys will cost $5000 for a 30 foot boat to cover the surveyor's malpractice insurance. All valid points of course. My statement was made primarily to highlight the limited amount of recourse available, not to recommend a specific course of action. |
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I wasn't really responding to anyone in particular (especially Doug).
Just trying to stick a finger in the collapsing levees of common sense and decency that surround our society. -- Roger Long "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 12:34:36 GMT, "Roger Long" wrote: You've got to have some evidence of intentional wrongdoing or utter incompetence; not just something missed. Otherwise, you will just be one of the people pushing us closer to the day when boating will be like aviation and a lot of other things, there either won't be any surveyors or surveys will cost $5000 for a 30 foot boat to cover the surveyor's malpractice insurance. All valid points of course. My statement was made primarily to highlight the limited amount of recourse available, not to recommend a specific course of action. |
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