RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

I use it all the time. it is one more way of navigating and I use all
forms all the time.

Tell me where you went and never learned to navigate using some of the
oldest methods of navigation that there is?
If you have never heard of this before then you should be really
embarrassed. No one that has been around the sea for very long has gone
without knowing about it. A few years ago there was a TV series on the
discovery of Hawaii and a boat sailed to Hawaii using the same methods
- no compass or anything and made it just fine.

Better to keep your mouth shut and thought of as a fool then to open it
and remove all doubt!

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

Da Kine wrote:
Why is it that you don't like the idea of needing to know/learn
something?
I know celestial Nav.
My watch never got hurt when we were hit. My clock never got hurt. My
TV that had a clock didn't get hurt but that clock sped up. NOTHING
WAS HURT because I knew when to turn the power off and navigate like a
sailor!

As for celestial, I think I made a point that I use my sextant more for
weather observation then anything else, but I have ALWAYS done my math
longhand on paper. If you don't, you don't know celestial.
Computers are great, I'm on one now, but I trust paper charts, and
old school learning.
Tell me what your sextant tells you about the clouds?

The lightning excuse is not BS. Fighting someone who recommends being
smarter is BS. This is why I only come here once in a while, that and
the fact that I am more often then not out to sea as I will be in a few
weeks. I'm sorry if I stepped on your only chance to feel important.
I was giving information to someone that wanted to learn and someone
that might actually go sailing and lose sight of land. You don't need
to stick your head in to protect anything. I will be out sailing again
soon and your little domain will be yours again to spread stupidly with
your other slip sailing friends.

Keep your armchair warm and stay dry. You're suited for it.

What?? I still agree with the feloow who said that GPS is the best nav
tool to date. Don't leave home without it. While celestial worked, it
wasn't and isn't as good. What is your personal error? 3-5 metres like
GPS or 2 miles like everyone else that uses a sky wrench.

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

Da Kine wrote:
clouds rise over land faster then water. Waves bend around islands.
.... the really short version.

So how reliable is that fix? "There is land over there because of the
cloud rising above it."

What land, how far, what is the safe approach? How about at night? in
fog? in rain? or when it is completely over cast?

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

Da Kine wrote:
that is a good rule - just think about what might be important that you
are forgetting.

If you can't aford great stuff, at least buy a cheap sextant and learn
to use it. Learn a bit about the ocean for crying out load. If you want
to be a sailor then step up to the plate and learn the things that most
of us love to learn. You might even enjoy yourself and enjoy sailing
more then you do now.

Got the kit, been using it for 25+ years. I even watched the waves.
Like the GPS better.

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

otnmbrd wrote:
That same bolt of lightening will take out your calculator so you then
have to work stars long hand. It'll also kill your digital watch and
radio so you won't have the correct time. It'll probably short out your
boat so you won't be able to work the stars out until light the next
morning. The lightening excuse to learn astro is BS. Learn it because
you want to or take a couple extra handheld GPS. Practice dead
reckoning. Know where you are all the time.

Gaz


Let's see...... calculator gone, long hand star calc's....add a minute or
two to the solution.
digital watch killed..... in that case I'm probably dead too so what do I
care.... always have a mechanical clock that you know the error...no big
deal, was done for years.
lights out?....lite a candle or wait till daylight.... what the hell, it's
offshore navigation, what's the rush....
And how did you check the error on that deck watch? Radio? What was the
error and how much does it change daily? Can't just do the time check
anymore. Damn lightening.

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

Da Kine wrote:
you really are a smart ass aren't you. Learn to read and stop taking
things out of context. You're like that little spec of vomit after you
burp. I'm really tired of you.

How about that passage in the south pacific where you navigated by
clouds and waves.....where was that again?

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

Da Kine wrote:
I use it all the time. it is one more way of navigating and I use all
forms all the time.

Tell me where you went and never learned to navigate using some of the
oldest methods of navigation that there is?
If you have never heard of this before then you should be really
embarrassed. No one that has been around the sea for very long has gone
without knowing about it. A few years ago there was a TV series on the
discovery of Hawaii and a boat sailed to Hawaii using the same methods
- no compass or anything and made it just fine.

Better to keep your mouth shut and thought of as a fool then to open it
and remove all doubt!

I saw the show. You are kind of stretching it. Sure it is possible to
navigate using the currents, winds and waves but it is extremely
unreliable and that is why the compass, clocks, radio navigation aids
and all the other stuff was invented.

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

yep and I use them together

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 05:01:05 GMT, otnmbrd
wrote:

Gee, I wonder how I navigated all over the world, offshore, prior to GPS,
if I had no viable alternative to GPS.

Probably celestial and DR unless you were lucky enough to be on a ship
with a good inertial system.

Tell us about the times when you couldn't get a celestial fix because
of clouds.

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

On 5 Mar 2006 21:51:45 -0800, "Da Kine"
wrote:

If you can't aford great stuff, at least buy a cheap sextant and learn
to use it.

Been there, done that.

It's obsolete.

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

Gary wrote:
[snip]
The jamming of GPS is possible and used. The challenge is long range
jamming or continuous jamming. It takes a great deal of power to jam a
GPS that is any distance away. It also needs to run continuously to
really screw you up. Once the jamming stops, or you get too far away,
it just locks back on. The jamming will likely be obvious. You just
won't get a signal. The better way of doing it is not jamming but
deceiving the GPS so it looks like it is working but leads you (or a
missile) away from the intended destination or target. This would be
fairly obvious on a yacht at sea.

In other words, don't worry about it. The 90% of the time you are on
your boat sitting at anchor it won't matter. The rest of the time
nobody cares to jam you.

i never said i was worried about it. i never said i thought anyone was
going to jam me. i never said i was going to high latitudes where i
thought geomagnetic storms would affect me. all i did was answer my
own question which was "can GPS fail ?". to my surprise, yeah, there
were some cases where it has failed. end of story.

GPS is a great tool, my primary navigation tool and i would assume the
primary navigation tool of anyone on a boat. i can't imagine any
reasonable situation where it would ever fail for me. but that doesn't
make understanding when it can fail some kind of crime, it doesn't make
me into some kind of anti-GPS zealot.

Don't forget that tinfoil in your ball cap.

i don't understand why you are being rude to me, i've not done anything
to you.

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

chuck wrote:
Take a look in your local library for a copy of the Radio Amateur's
Handbook. You'll find a discussion there on building small loop antennas
that can be pretty effective in RDF work.

Another option is to check Ebay from time to time for used RDF gear.
Heathkit made a lot of marine RDF units over the years and these are
usually priced reasonably.

thanks chuck, sounds good.

i tried this evening to tune my icom ic-706-mkiig to listen to an NDB
(non directional beacon) at the local airport, failure! i couldn't
figure out why it didn't work either, i was within about 6 miles of one
of the transmitters and that transmitter was listed as being 25 watts,
so i should have had no trouble picking it up even with the crappy whip
antenna i had. but i couldn't hear a thing out of it, just static.
turns out that my icom radio is pretty much deaf as a post below about
300khz, and these transmitters were down in the 200-250khz range. oh
well, i guess i'll just get one of those marine RDF units and be done
with it lol, they can certainly tune to an NDB and listen to it. i
guess hearing it on my icom radio wouldn't have been a big
accomplishment anyway even if it had worked ... except that i could use
the opportunity to listen to the slow speed morse code, i'm still
learning CW/morse and haven't been practicing!

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

Your 706 is probably OK. The problem is that the whip's impedance is a
really poor match to 50 ohms at those long wavelengths. The marine VLF
radios use either an active antenna that performs the impedance
transformation or a special ferrite matching coil.

Try using a long metal fence or something similar and see if that makes
a difference.

Chuck


purple_stars wrote:
chuck wrote:

Take a look in your local library for a copy of the Radio Amateur's
Handbook. You'll find a discussion there on building small loop antennas
that can be pretty effective in RDF work.

Another option is to check Ebay from time to time for used RDF gear.
Heathkit made a lot of marine RDF units over the years and these are
usually priced reasonably.


thanks chuck, sounds good.

i tried this evening to tune my icom ic-706-mkiig to listen to an NDB
(non directional beacon) at the local airport, failure! i couldn't
figure out why it didn't work either, i was within about 6 miles of one
of the transmitters and that transmitter was listed as being 25 watts,
so i should have had no trouble picking it up even with the crappy whip
antenna i had. but i couldn't hear a thing out of it, just static.
turns out that my icom radio is pretty much deaf as a post below about
300khz, and these transmitters were down in the 200-250khz range. oh
well, i guess i'll just get one of those marine RDF units and be done
with it lol, they can certainly tune to an NDB and listen to it. i
guess hearing it on my icom radio wouldn't have been a big
accomplishment anyway even if it had worked ... except that i could use
the opportunity to listen to the slow speed morse code, i'm still
learning CW/morse and haven't been practicing!

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On 5 Mar 2006 14:20:24 -0800, "purple_stars"
wrote:


waynes i'm guessing that you mean that the navy doesn't teach RDF, not
that they don't teach celestial. only reason i say that is because it
seems like the military would need backups like celestial because i
understood that the EMP from a nuclear weapons blast could take out
electronics such as GPS systems. is that wrong ?


Yes, it's wrong. They no longer teach celestial.


You keep saying that. However, celestial navigation is shown as part
of the navigation course at the Naval Academy, which is required for
many majors.

The report from a few years ago which created your myth was that
celestial was no longer required for *all* majors.

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

purple_stars wrote:
Gary wrote:
[snip]

The jamming of GPS is possible and used. The challenge is long range
jamming or continuous jamming. It takes a great deal of power to jam a
GPS that is any distance away. It also needs to run continuously to
really screw you up. Once the jamming stops, or you get too far away,
it just locks back on. The jamming will likely be obvious. You just
won't get a signal. The better way of doing it is not jamming but
deceiving the GPS so it looks like it is working but leads you (or a
missile) away from the intended destination or target. This would be
fairly obvious on a yacht at sea.

In other words, don't worry about it. The 90% of the time you are on
your boat sitting at anchor it won't matter. The rest of the time
nobody cares to jam you.


i never said i was worried about it. i never said i thought anyone was
going to jam me. i never said i was going to high latitudes where i
thought geomagnetic storms would affect me. all i did was answer my
own question which was "can GPS fail ?". to my surprise, yeah, there
were some cases where it has failed. end of story.

GPS is a great tool, my primary navigation tool and i would assume the
primary navigation tool of anyone on a boat. i can't imagine any
reasonable situation where it would ever fail for me. but that doesn't
make understanding when it can fail some kind of crime, it doesn't make
me into some kind of anti-GPS zealot.


Don't forget that tinfoil in your ball cap.


i don't understand why you are being rude to me, i've not done anything
to you.

The ball cap comment was a joke aimed at Da Kine who seems lack a sense
of humour as well.

My comments on jamming are not intended to be rude.

You are being a bit sensitive.

Sorry.

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

Jeff wrote:
Wayne.B wrote:

On 5 Mar 2006 14:20:24 -0800, "purple_stars"
wrote:


waynes i'm guessing that you mean that the navy doesn't teach RDF, not
that they don't teach celestial. only reason i say that is because it
seems like the military would need backups like celestial because i
understood that the EMP from a nuclear weapons blast could take out
electronics such as GPS systems. is that wrong ?



Yes, it's wrong. They no longer teach celestial.



You keep saying that. However, celestial navigation is shown as part of
the navigation course at the Naval Academy, which is required for many
majors.

The report from a few years ago which created your myth was that
celestial was no longer required for *all* majors.
I am in the Navy. We only teach celestial nav to navigators. In the
past all officers had to learn it and do it. Now you have to learn it
yourself to pass the command exams. It is not taught to everyone.
Almost no-one uses it.

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

Gary wrote:
Jeff wrote:

Wayne.B wrote:
....

Yes, it's wrong. They no longer teach celestial.

You keep saying that. However, celestial navigation is shown as part
of the navigation course at the Naval Academy, which is required for
many majors.

The report from a few years ago which created your myth was that
celestial was no longer required for *all* majors.

I am in the Navy. We only teach celestial nav to navigators. In the
past all officers had to learn it and do it. Now you have to learn it
yourself to pass the command exams. It is not taught to everyone.
Almost no-one uses it.

I was talking about the US Naval Academy, where they certainly teach
it. Also, you're saying that celestial is required by the Canadian
Navy for command posts; this seems more significant than whether they
teach it.

Of course no one actually uses celestial, other than as an occasional
novelty. However, even a few hours exposure to it is enough for some
students to learn the basics, such as the meaning of a Noon Sight.

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

Gary wrote in
news:uuQOf.109032$B94.27750@pd7tw3no:


And how did you check the error on that deck watch? Radio? What was
the error and how much does it change daily? Can't just do the time
check anymore. Damn lightening.



Most watches/clocks are fairly consistent in their rate of error.
Prior to your loss of electronics you would have/should have been
maintaining a log of the watch/clock you would use for this type emergency
so that you would know not only it's error but daily rate.
You apply this error and daily rate to your calculations.

otn

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

Wayne.B wrote in
:

On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 05:01:05 GMT, otnmbrd
wrote:

Gee, I wonder how I navigated all over the world, offshore, prior to
GPS, if I had no viable alternative to GPS.

Probably celestial and DR unless you were lucky enough to be on a ship
with a good inertial system.

Tell us about the times when you couldn't get a celestial fix because
of clouds.



First off remember..... you're offshore. Although it's great to know
exactly where you are at all times, for much of your trip it's not really
necessary and even when things were great for celestial you only got three
"exact" fixes every day ... morning/evening stars and noon.
Sure there are times when you don't get a fix for extended periods and
anyone can tell of cases where this caused a grounding, etc., but for the
most part you were and are able to use your knowledge of your boat's
reaction to weather, known currents, etc. to maintain a reasonable DR until
you do get a sight, come on soundings, approach land, etc.
You use whatever is there.
The problem with the sole reliance on GPS or multiple GPS is that you
become a "mechanical" navigator and either forget how to use other methods
or never learn them to begin with, which can rear up and bite you on the
butt when the bananas hit the fan.

otn

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

some guys love to be dumb. Some are so dumb they don't even know they
are

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

Gary wrote:
otnmbrd wrote:

That same bolt of lightening will take out your calculator so you
then have to work stars long hand. It'll also kill your digital
watch and radio so you won't have the correct time. It'll probably
short out your boat so you won't be able to work the stars out until
light the next morning. The lightening excuse to learn astro is BS.
Learn it because you want to or take a couple extra handheld GPS.
Practice dead reckoning. Know where you are all the time.

Gaz



Let's see...... calculator gone, long hand star calc's....add a minute
or two to the solution.
digital watch killed..... in that case I'm probably dead too so what
do I care.... always have a mechanical clock that you know the
error...no big deal, was done for years.
lights out?....lite a candle or wait till daylight.... what the hell,
it's offshore navigation, what's the rush....

And how did you check the error on that deck watch? Radio? What was the
error and how much does it change daily? Can't just do the time check
anymore. Damn lightening.

With all due respect Gary, I think you need a refresher course on
celestial. I wear a "windup" watch, and have two windup ship's
clocks. All of them are accurate to a minute a month, and have a
pretty consistent error rate. I generally set them once a week, so the
error is well under a minute. So, would you care to tell us what the
expected error would be for both Latitude and Longitude?

To be honest, I don't really buy the lightning argument either. But
I'm not sure some find fault in celestial because it is not accurate
to 3 meters.

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

On 6 Mar 2006 01:57:10 -0800, "purple_stars"
wrote:

except that i could use
the opportunity to listen to the slow speed morse code, i'm still
learning CW/morse and haven't been practicing!

Are you familiar with the W1AW code practice sessions? You should
have no trouble picking them up on your ICOM.

http://www.arrl.org/w1aw.html#w1awsked

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 13:19:41 -0500, Jeff wrote:

I generally set them once a week, so the
error is well under a minute. So, would you care to tell us what the
expected error would be for both Latitude and Longitude?

A one minute error in time translates to about a 15 mile error in
longitude at the equator.

If using a noon site to determine latitude, a 1 minute error is almost
inconsequential.

This was all vitally important 20 years ago but the world has changed.

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

and to think i thought one minute = one minute.

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

otnmbrd wrote:
Gary wrote in
news:uuQOf.109032$B94.27750@pd7tw3no:


And how did you check the error on that deck watch? Radio? What was
the error and how much does it change daily? Can't just do the time
check anymore. Damn lightening.




Most watches/clocks are fairly consistent in their rate of error.
Prior to your loss of electronics you would have/should have been
maintaining a log of the watch/clock you would use for this type emergency
so that you would know not only it's error but daily rate.
You apply this error and daily rate to your calculations.

otn
Just my point, but who actually is doing this? Thank goodness for the GPS.

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

otnmbrd wrote:
Wayne.B wrote in
:


On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 05:01:05 GMT, otnmbrd
wrote:


Gee, I wonder how I navigated all over the world, offshore, prior to
GPS, if I had no viable alternative to GPS.

Probably celestial and DR unless you were lucky enough to be on a ship
with a good inertial system.

Tell us about the times when you couldn't get a celestial fix because
of clouds.




First off remember..... you're offshore. Although it's great to know
exactly where you are at all times, for much of your trip it's not really
necessary and even when things were great for celestial you only got three
"exact" fixes every day ... morning/evening stars and noon.
Sure there are times when you don't get a fix for extended periods and
anyone can tell of cases where this caused a grounding, etc., but for the
most part you were and are able to use your knowledge of your boat's
reaction to weather, known currents, etc. to maintain a reasonable DR until
you do get a sight, come on soundings, approach land, etc.
You use whatever is there.
The problem with the sole reliance on GPS or multiple GPS is that you
become a "mechanical" navigator and either forget how to use other methods
or never learn them to begin with, which can rear up and bite you on the
butt when the bananas hit the fan.

otn
How does putting a GPS fix on the chart help you forget your boat's
reaction to weather, currents (it tells you them), DRing etc? If
anything it proves your estimated position.

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

On 6 Mar 2006 13:58:07 -0800, "Da Kine"
wrote:

and to think i thought one minute = one minute.

No. One minute = 1/60th of an hour.

In an hour earth rotates through 900 nautical miles at the equator.

1/60th of 900 = 15 nautical miles.

If your time is off by 1 minute, your east/west distance (aka
longitude) is off by 15 nm.

Issues?

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 23:49:12 GMT, Gary wrote:

I don't miss the days where I wound the
deck watches the same number of turns at the same time every day and
gently put them away in their little gimballed boxes until the next day.
I certainly don't do it on my boat.

And neither is anyone else.

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On 6 Mar 2006 13:58:07 -0800, "Da Kine"
wrote:


and to think i thought one minute = one minute.


No. One minute = 1/60th of an hour.

In an hour earth rotates through 900 nautical miles at the equator.

1/60th of 900 = 15 nautical miles.

If your time is off by 1 minute, your east/west distance (aka
longitude) is off by 15 nm.

Issues?

I guess Mr Da Kine better stick to navigating by clouds!

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 23:49:12 GMT, Gary wrote:


I don't miss the days where I wound the
deck watches the same number of turns at the same time every day and
gently put them away in their little gimballed boxes until the next day.
I certainly don't do it on my boat.


And neither is anyone else.

The voice of reason!

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

Gary wrote in
news:7L3Pf.112368$B94.94115@pd7tw3no:

otnmbrd wrote:
Gary wrote in
news:uuQOf.109032$B94.27750@pd7tw3no:


And how did you check the error on that deck watch? Radio? What was
the error and how much does it change daily? Can't just do the time
check anymore. Damn lightening.

Most watches/clocks are fairly consistent in their rate of error.
Prior to your loss of electronics you would have/should have been
maintaining a log of the watch/clock you would use for this type
emergency so that you would know not only it's error but daily rate.
You apply this error and daily rate to your calculations.

otn
Just my point, but who actually is doing this? Thank goodness for the
GPS.


This series of arguments/discussions, comes up on a fairly regular
basis.
All it takes are statements such as "there is no viable alternative to
GPS" for offshore navigation, or, "celestial is too inaccurate" to bring
those of us with extensive backgrounds in "oldtime navigation" out of
the woodwork.
Who is doing this? In all honesty, anyone who is frequently involved
with offshore navigation and is aware of the possibilities. G It takes
no time and relieves some of the watchstanding boredom and might save
your butt, someday.
I am not talking about 99% of the recreational boaters in this group who
rarely get more than one day from landfall, but rather those who are apt
to take extended cruises wherein you need to plan and be ready for the
worst.
All too often, todays boaters/cruisers tend to feel there is no need to
know anything other than how to turn on their GPS. We hear about them
all the time.....overdue, missing, presumed dead.


otn

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

Gary wrote in
news:EN3Pf.111703$H%4.77487@pd7tw2no:


How does putting a GPS fix on the chart help you forget your boat's
reaction to weather, currents (it tells you them), DRing etc? If
anything it proves your estimated position.



Sure it tells you what, but it doesn't tell you why. Hey, good short term
plan, the GPS says steer 270..... course, this could mean you'll fight the
currents/winds , rather than use them: drive over that rock.....
GPS is a tool and all too many consider it the ultimate tool. It's not and
all too many get into the habit of forgetting to question the "why" of what
it says.
BTW, the GPS doesn't tell you your boat's reaction to weather, currents.
It's telling you your reaction to the cumulative conditions you are in.
YOU have to figure out your boats reactions to weather, currents.


otn

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

otnmbrd wrote:


Just my point, but who actually is doing this? Thank goodness for the
GPS.



This series of arguments/discussions, comes up on a fairly regular
basis.
All it takes are statements such as "there is no viable alternative to
GPS" for offshore navigation, or, "celestial is too inaccurate" to bring
those of us with extensive backgrounds in "oldtime navigation" out of
the woodwork.
Who is doing this? In all honesty, anyone who is frequently involved
with offshore navigation and is aware of the possibilities. G It takes
no time and relieves some of the watchstanding boredom and might save
your butt, someday.
I do believe that some may do it for relief of the boredom. That sounds
right. I am sure that not many are winding chronometers and recording
errors of deck watches anymore. We certainly don't on my ship and most
Captains I know, military and civil don't.

What do you drive where this is done?

Next you'll tell me that airline pilots are taking sights out the
windows of the cockpit "just in case".

I am not talking about 99% of the recreational boaters in this group who
rarely get more than one day from landfall, but rather those who are apt
to take extended cruises wherein you need to plan and be ready for the
worst.
All too often, todays boaters/cruisers tend to feel there is no need to
know anything other than how to turn on their GPS. We hear about them
all the time.....overdue, missing, presumed dead.


otn

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

You say things much better then I. I agree with this 100%.

The work is to much for many to mix in with having fun. Some never will
need it.

There are those of us who learned it before there was another way and
so it is in our habits. I really love staying in touch with nature. I
love looking up and knowing what star is over what island at what time
of night. To me, it is a huge part of sailing and not just a backup.

I tend to take a fix and then check it on the gps to see how close I
got. I love calculating the time between wave crests, height and change
in direction to see where the weather system is heading. To me, it is
what sailing is about, but then some guys only like powerboats. I love
sailing tall ships and race sloops.

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

Gary, Pilots go from point a to b in a few hours. When sailing, I often
leave point a and take 3 or 4 days to point b. Sometimes its more like
a 7-9 days. A lot can happen in that time. Pilots know what they are
flying into. Sailors only know what they left behind.

For most people, sailing is a lot more then drinking beer and going
from cruiser port to cruiser port. Those that do that are more often
then not, motor boaters with a sail for looks and a boat instead of a
motor home. The guys that hang out and talk story and sail a Wednesday
night race are social people that socialize around boats. I doubt any
of them would ever want to learn anything except maybe how to make a
maple leaf flag.

When I drive a boat somewhere for delivery, its not sailing, its
delivery and I am usually in site of land, even between it in the ICW.
The only jobs I have that take me offshore is driving cargo or offshore
towing and both of those are motor driven and fast from a to b.

By the way, you're talking like you're are a captain with "We
certainly don't on my ship and most Captains I know, military and civil
don't." If you were a captain then you would know that celestial is a
required ticket to get a higher license and if you were navy you would
know that it is required to drive one of their rigs. I don't know who
you are or what you do but I do know what you don't do.

What is the ultimate navigation tool? Was - RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

Gary wrote in
news:Z26Pf.112412$H%4.97127@pd7tw2no:

otnmbrd wrote:
Gary wrote in


How does putting a GPS fix on the chart help you forget your boat's
reaction to weather, currents (it tells you them), DRing etc? If
anything it proves your estimated position.


Sure it tells you what, but it doesn't tell you why. Hey, good short
term plan, the GPS says steer 270..... course, this could mean you'll
fight the currents/winds , rather than use them: drive over that
rock.....

The GPS doesn't say steer anything. It just tells you where you are,
exactly, most of the time.

Generally the units I use tell you the course to steer to the next
waypoint.

GPS is a tool and all too many consider it the ultimate tool. It's
not and all too many get into the habit of forgetting to question the
"why" of what it says.
It is currently the ultimate tool but not the only tool and not
infallible. But it is the best.....generally, most of the time,
right?

For offshore navigation, I'd say yes. For inshore, I'd say no, but it
ranks close.


What, in your opinion is the ultimate navigation tool?

Me


BTW, the GPS doesn't tell you your boat's reaction to weather,
currents. It's telling you your reaction to the cumulative conditions
you are in. YOU have to figure out your boats reactions to weather,
currents.


otn

It is the total cumulative reaction that counts. It's the same
information you get off two fixes whether taken by stars, radar,
visually, or GPS. The information is total cumulation of wind and
current affecting the ship. That is what you want. The GPS just does
it quicker and more accurately and more often.

No, it only tells you the cumulative. Once again, YOU need to figure out
the "why" to know how the "cumulative" came about.
For instance, you are on a displacement type boat with 20k of wind on
the port beam. Your GPS tells you, you are making your course good (no
set or drift). What does that tell you?


otn

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

"Tell me what your sextant tells you about the clouds? "
I'm a bit tired of you but -
If you know the dew point and temperature, then you know how high the
bottoms of the clouds are and then with a sextant you know how far away
a storm is. If you know how far away it is, you can tell how high it
is. If you know how high it is you can see how much more it grows and
in what direction it is moving.

I have 2 GPS's on board but I am smart enough to know that electrical
things break and GPS is not guaranteed to be available and there are
things that can go wrong and they don't do everything and its fun to
do old school sailing and and and and and.............. and gps is not
good to 3-5 meters anywhere outside the states and charts are not
accurate enough to use GPS with outside of populated areas and and and
and and............ if you read a damned thing you would already have
read that but then you are what you are and not what you are not!

What is the ultimate navigation tool? Was - RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

otnmbrd wrote:
[snip]
No, it only tells you the cumulative. Once again, YOU need to figure out
the "why" to know how the "cumulative" came about.
For instance, you are on a displacement type boat with 20k of wind on
the port beam. Your GPS tells you, you are making your course good (no
set or drift). What does that tell you?

hi otn,

what you are saying is the same as what the fat navigation book i've
been studying is saying, that the navigator navigates and the GPS just
gives a fix, which is one of the many interesting things a navigator
needs to know to do his/her job. it's brilliant at giving fixes,
fortunately. like you are saying, navigation is more than getting from
A to B, which is what GPS is great at ... but about getting from A to B
safely, in good time, with good weather, with a smooth ride, following
advantageous winds and currents, arriving at tricky harbor entrances in
daylight, etc, etc, things that GPS doesn't know anything about. even
the navigator doesn't know them all, s/he can only use his/her best
judgement and experience when combining the information gained by the
navigational aids at hand such as GPS fixes, wind direction
measurements, wind speed, calculations of currents, route books showing
statistical "best times" for advantageous conditions, and on and on.
it's all important in creating "situational awareness", and the more
accurate information upon which to make a judgement, the better.

which is the most important navigational tool in the middle of the
ocean ? like otn said, himself (i'm assuming you are male otn,
apologies if i'm wrong!). and other really important tools are .. if
using paper charts (doesn't everyone do their real work on paper charts
?) ... good updated charts, pencils and scrap paper, a straight edge,
GPS receivers, wind vane, a calculator, good reference information,
depth finder, radios, etc, etc .. and the most important information
are GPS fixes, current heading, heading made true, magnetic direction
(which is only on occasion coincidentally the same as your GPS
direction), weather reports, etc, etc. but in the end, it is the
totality of all of this information combined in the navigator's own
squishy brain that is the most important thing, and the experience and
knowledge of the navigator to make good judgements that keeps a boat
off of a reef.

in that context, i still think RDF would be interesting to use. if
you're just sitting there in the ocean moving along at a nice pace
without a speck of land in sight, i, personally, would gain an added
measure of comfort in my own decisions by knowing that WABC's
transmitter at location lat/long is located 10 degrees off of
starboard. yes, i want a GPS fix too (goes without saying), and i want
to know a lot more than that, but i'd like to know that RDF information
too if i had the choice between having it and not having it. and as
far as that goes, i'd be happy with celestial fixes along the way too,
even relatively inaccurate ones that put me in the same neighborhood.
and i'd be happy seeing stationary clouds on the horizon forming over
and island, sea birds, knowing what location nearby vessels think they
are at, etc, too, i want as much information as i can get. all of
these perceptions form a picture in the navigator's mind that you hope
is the same as what reality is.

and i'm not saying that anyone here doesn't think the same kind of
thing, i would assume that everyone posting on this thread has some
similar kind of idea in mind even if there is debate over whether RDF
or celestial sights are worth including for the amount of trouble
and/or equipment weight, etc, that's involved. but i personally don't
see RDF, celestial sights, or sea birds as "un-necessary" or "something
to do when bored", i see them as interesting information that i would
rather have than not. i don't see how excluding any of that
information is smart as a goal unto itself .. and for those involved in
a ****ing contest in this thread, i'm not trying to infer that you
think it's a bright idea either. so don't **** on me! lol.

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

"Gary" wrote in message
news:UY5Pf.112065$sa3.81091@pd7tw1no...

I do believe that some may do it for relief of the boredom. That sounds
right. I am sure that not many are winding chronometers and recording
errors of deck watches anymore. We certainly don't on my ship and most
Captains I know, military and civil don't.

Actually, I'm surprised at how many ships I see out there with wind up
chronometers and "Chron logs"


What do you drive where this is done?

Next you'll tell me that airline pilots are taking sights out the windows
of the cockpit "just in case".

G Wrong type of pilot

otn

RDF (radio direction finding) ... do you ?
 

Jeff wrote:
Gary wrote:

otnmbrd wrote:

That same bolt of lightening will take out your calculator so you
then have to work stars long hand. It'll also kill your digital
watch and radio so you won't have the correct time. It'll probably
short out your boat so you won't be able to work the stars out until
light the next morning. The lightening excuse to learn astro is
BS. Learn it because you want to or take a couple extra handheld
GPS. Practice dead reckoning. Know where you are all the time.

Gaz




Let's see...... calculator gone, long hand star calc's....add a
minute or two to the solution.
digital watch killed..... in that case I'm probably dead too so what
do I care.... always have a mechanical clock that you know the
error...no big deal, was done for years.
lights out?....lite a candle or wait till daylight.... what the hell,
it's offshore navigation, what's the rush....


And how did you check the error on that deck watch? Radio? What was
the error and how much does it change daily? Can't just do the time
check anymore. Damn lightening.


With all due respect Gary, I think you need a refresher course on
celestial. I wear a "windup" watch, and have two windup ship's
clocks. All of them are accurate to a minute a month, and have a pretty
consistent error rate. I generally set them once a week, so the error is
well under a minute. So, would you care to tell us what the expected
error would be for both Latitude and Longitude?

To be honest, I don't really buy the lightning argument either. But I'm
not sure some find fault in celestial because it is not accurate to 3
meters.

Jeff,

I'd be very interested in your opinion of where to get an inexpensive
but reliable "windup" clock/watch ?

Thank you,
Courtney