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Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
Does anyone have experience either storing an ocean kayak (closed, sit on top variety) on a 27 foot sailboat, or towing it behind? What are your experiences? Doable? Horrible? Good idea? Thanks! |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
wrote in message
oups.com... Does anyone have experience either storing an ocean kayak (closed, sit on top variety) on a 27 foot sailboat, or towing it behind? What are your experiences? Doable? Horrible? Good idea? Thanks! I believe there's another thread about towing... you should probably avoid this except for short distances in protected waters. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
Thanks, but I was asking for EXPERIENCES.
There are plenty of threads about towing, the most recent about towing a heavy motorboat. Not my interest. Pleeaaaaase, experiences from people who have done it. I can speculate plenty myself. |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
On 3 Feb 2006 15:30:43 -0800, "
wrote: Pleeaaaaase, experiences from people who have done it. I can speculate plenty myself. That kind of smart-assed comment is a pretty sure way to cut off further answers. I think Jon was suggesting that the issues involved in towing a kayak are similar to the issues of towing any dinghy. And he helpfully pointed you toward a disscussion of those issues that included input from people with experiences. |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
I think Garhauer makes racks that mount to stanctions for hanging kayaks
outside the rail. I agree with the below, heard too many "wasn't there a dinghy back there when we left?" stories to do that myself. "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... wrote in message oups.com... Does anyone have experience either storing an ocean kayak (closed, sit on top variety) on a 27 foot sailboat, or towing it behind? What are your experiences? Doable? Horrible? Good idea? Thanks! I believe there's another thread about towing... you should probably avoid this except for short distances in protected waters. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
wrote in message
oups.com... Thanks, but I was asking for EXPERIENCES. There are plenty of threads about towing, the most recent about towing a heavy motorboat. Not my interest. Pleeaaaaase, experiences from people who have done it. I can speculate plenty myself. I think many of us have towed dinghies for some distances. My *experience* is that it's not a good idea, except in protected waters for short periods. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
wrote in message
... On 3 Feb 2006 15:30:43 -0800, " wrote: Pleeaaaaase, experiences from people who have done it. I can speculate plenty myself. That kind of smart-assed comment is a pretty sure way to cut off further answers. I think Jon was suggesting that the issues involved in towing a kayak are similar to the issues of towing any dinghy. And he helpfully pointed you toward a disscussion of those issues that included input from people with experiences. You were thinking correctly. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
"MMC" wrote in message
.. . I think Garhauer makes racks that mount to stanctions for hanging kayaks outside the rail. I agree with the below, heard too many "wasn't there a dinghy back there when we left?" stories to do that myself. "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... wrote in message oups.com... Does anyone have experience either storing an ocean kayak (closed, sit on top variety) on a 27 foot sailboat, or towing it behind? What are your experiences? Doable? Horrible? Good idea? Thanks! I believe there's another thread about towing... you should probably avoid this except for short distances in protected waters. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com I have that tee shirt. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
Capt. JG wrote:
wrote in message oups.com... Does anyone have experience either storing an ocean kayak (closed, sit on top variety) on a 27 foot sailboat, or towing it behind? What are your experiences? Doable? Horrible? Good idea? Thanks! I believe there's another thread about towing... you should probably avoid this except for short distances in protected waters. The question is a little different than towing a dinghy. I too have wondered about towing a sit-on-top kayak. The difference is they are self bailing, unsinkable and fairly light. It is more akin to towing a styrofoam log than a dinghy. Good question. I am also interested in hearing if anyone has done it. Gaz |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
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Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
MMC wrote:
I think Garhauer makes racks that mount to stanctions for hanging kayaks outside the rail. I agree with the below, heard too many "wasn't there a dinghy back there when we left?" stories to do that myself. I've seen those hangers and it looks like it would rip the stanchions off in any kind of a seaway. I think that is a very "near shore" weekender design. I like the idea of towing the kayak (sit-on-top) better. Gaz |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
On Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:20:06 -0800, "Capt. JG"
wrote: You were thinking correctly. See Jon, I back you up when you're right. It just happens so seldom g. |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
I know. I'm imperfect. Not too humble either.
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com wrote in message ... On Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:20:06 -0800, "Capt. JG" wrote: You were thinking correctly. See Jon, I back you up when you're right. It just happens so seldom g. |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
Well, I've seen it done, and I've seen the result...
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Gary" wrote in message news:p%SEf.424192$2k.384298@pd7tw1no... Capt. JG wrote: wrote in message oups.com... Does anyone have experience either storing an ocean kayak (closed, sit on top variety) on a 27 foot sailboat, or towing it behind? What are your experiences? Doable? Horrible? Good idea? Thanks! I believe there's another thread about towing... you should probably avoid this except for short distances in protected waters. The question is a little different than towing a dinghy. I too have wondered about towing a sit-on-top kayak. The difference is they are self bailing, unsinkable and fairly light. It is more akin to towing a styrofoam log than a dinghy. Good question. I am also interested in hearing if anyone has done it. Gaz |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
Capt. JG wrote:
Well, I've seen it done, and I've seen the result... What did you see? What was the result? |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
A broken painter.
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Gary" wrote in message news:hkXEf.544273$ki.301436@pd7tw2no... Capt. JG wrote: Well, I've seen it done, and I've seen the result... What did you see? What was the result? |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
Capt. JG wrote:
A broken painter. That's it? |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
Damn expensive experience gathering! A good friend has lost 2 inflatables
while towing! He finally bought davits..... "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... "MMC" wrote in message .. . I think Garhauer makes racks that mount to stanctions for hanging kayaks outside the rail. I agree with the below, heard too many "wasn't there a dinghy back there when we left?" stories to do that myself. "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... wrote in message oups.com... Does anyone have experience either storing an ocean kayak (closed, sit on top variety) on a 27 foot sailboat, or towing it behind? What are your experiences? Doable? Horrible? Good idea? Thanks! I believe there's another thread about towing... you should probably avoid this except for short distances in protected waters. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com I have that tee shirt. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
How about if they rotated, inside for passage making and outside for in
port? MMC "Gary" wrote in message news:Q9TEf.318255$tl.270005@pd7tw3no... MMC wrote: I think Garhauer makes racks that mount to stanctions for hanging kayaks outside the rail. I agree with the below, heard too many "wasn't there a dinghy back there when we left?" stories to do that myself. I've seen those hangers and it looks like it would rip the stanchions off in any kind of a seaway. I think that is a very "near shore" weekender design. I like the idea of towing the kayak (sit-on-top) better. Gaz |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
MMC wrote:
Damn expensive experience gathering! A good friend has lost 2 inflatables while towing! He finally bought davits..... "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... The reason I am interested in hearing from someone who has actually towed a sit on top is because of all the types of towed dinghies, it seems like it would be the best. It can't fill with water. It won't suddenly weigh 1000 pounds. It is unsinkable. The only thing that I can think of that would be of concern is it flipping over in a seaway and diving. Painter chafe is a solveable problem. Carrying one onboard is easy and I do that regularily. I don't tie it to the guardrails/lifelines though. They are not strong enough for that. Gaz |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
"Gary" wrote in message
news:bg5Ff.322948$tl.239395@pd7tw3no... MMC wrote: Damn expensive experience gathering! A good friend has lost 2 inflatables while towing! He finally bought davits..... "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... The reason I am interested in hearing from someone who has actually towed a sit on top is because of all the types of towed dinghies, it seems like it would be the best. It can't fill with water. It won't suddenly weigh 1000 pounds. It is unsinkable. The only thing that I can think of that would be of concern is it flipping over in a seaway and diving. Painter chafe is a solveable problem. Carrying one onboard is easy and I do that regularily. I don't tie it to the guardrails/lifelines though. They are not strong enough for that. Gaz Yes, it would seem like it would be the best... but they get pretty squirrelly I would think... whipping around because they have no substance. I believe that the one I saw lost kept getting whipped from side to side and this finally did in the painter. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
You asked me what I saw... that's what I saw... isn't that enough? It
probably chafed through? Just a guess. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Gary" wrote in message news:303Ff.547604$ki.339867@pd7tw2no... Capt. JG wrote: A broken painter. That's it? |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
Gary wrote:
MMC wrote: Damn expensive experience gathering! A good friend has lost 2 inflatables while towing! He finally bought davits..... "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... The reason I am interested in hearing from someone who has actually towed a sit on top is because of all the types of towed dinghies, it seems like it would be the best. It can't fill with water. It won't suddenly weigh 1000 pounds. It is unsinkable. The only thing that I can think of that would be of concern is it flipping over in a seaway and diving. Painter chafe is a solveable problem. Carrying one onboard is easy and I do that regularily. I don't tie it to the guardrails/lifelines though. They are not strong enough for that. Gaz Usually, at this time, someone recommends the PortaBote. It folds up smaller than your kayak for attaching to lifelines, yet would keep you dry rowing back & forth to mooring field. Like a normal dinghy, I would only tow it in calm seas. |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
Capt. JG wrote:
You asked me what I saw... that's what I saw... isn't that enough? It probably chafed through? Just a guess. I was expecting something more dramatic/catastrophic. IE: The kayak surged forward and landed in the cockpit knocking the helmsman overboard; The kayak inverted and dove straight down ripping the cleat right off the back of the boat; The kayak accelerated past the boat while surfing on a wave and when the painter came tight it yanked the kayak bow right through a portlight. Something more........you know. Gaz |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
Don White wrote:
Gary wrote: MMC wrote: Damn expensive experience gathering! A good friend has lost 2 inflatables while towing! He finally bought davits..... "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... The reason I am interested in hearing from someone who has actually towed a sit on top is because of all the types of towed dinghies, it seems like it would be the best. It can't fill with water. It won't suddenly weigh 1000 pounds. It is unsinkable. The only thing that I can think of that would be of concern is it flipping over in a seaway and diving. Painter chafe is a solveable problem. Carrying one onboard is easy and I do that regularily. I don't tie it to the guardrails/lifelines though. They are not strong enough for that. Gaz Usually, at this time, someone recommends the PortaBote. It folds up smaller than your kayak for attaching to lifelines, yet would keep you dry rowing back & forth to mooring field. Like a normal dinghy, I would only tow it in calm seas. Doesn't it also present a lot of area to a boarding sea? There is also the looks thing. PortaBote's are really ugly. They make a MacGregor look nice. Gaz |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
I didn't see that part. I saw the part where the skipper and crew were
yelling "sh*t, sh*t, sh*t" over and over and trying to recover it. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Gary" wrote in message news:PGdFf.434495$2k.336015@pd7tw1no... Capt. JG wrote: You asked me what I saw... that's what I saw... isn't that enough? It probably chafed through? Just a guess. I was expecting something more dramatic/catastrophic. IE: The kayak surged forward and landed in the cockpit knocking the helmsman overboard; The kayak inverted and dove straight down ripping the cleat right off the back of the boat; The kayak accelerated past the boat while surfing on a wave and when the painter came tight it yanked the kayak bow right through a portlight. Something more........you know. Gaz |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
On Sat, 04 Feb 2006 17:12:39 GMT, Gary wrote:
The only thing that I can think of that would be of concern is it flipping over in a seaway and diving. Flipping over is a matter of "when", not "if". It would be good no know in advance how it will react after it flips. I've had 2 towed inflatables flip over, once with a 65 lb outboard motor on the back, and 1 fiberglass dinghy capsize while being towed. It happens with amazing speed under the right conditions, and it doesn't have to be especially rough. I see no reason to think that a kayak is immune. |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
Wayne.B wrote:
On Sat, 04 Feb 2006 17:12:39 GMT, Gary wrote: The only thing that I can think of that would be of concern is it flipping over in a seaway and diving. Flipping over is a matter of "when", not "if". It would be good no know in advance how it will react after it flips. I've had 2 towed inflatables flip over, once with a 65 lb outboard motor on the back, and 1 fiberglass dinghy capsize while being towed. It happens with amazing speed under the right conditions, and it doesn't have to be especially rough. I see no reason to think that a kayak is immune. I don't think the kayak would be immune to flipping. I am interested in what it does after flipping. Unlike a hardshell dinghy, it won't fill with water or behave like a drogue. Unlike a zodiac it shouldn't start to come apart. The kayak can't fill with water and will either dive or just flip back again. Remember, it is more like a log than a boat. Gary |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
OK, from experience - don't tow a kayak. Except for river or squirt
boats the majority of Kayaks are designed to track in a straight line. All goes well until you tack. The painter slakens a bit, then rightens and your Kayak continues on it's merry way on your LAST course, until it is dragged sideways, flips over and fills with water. That does not address your particular question about sit on tops however as it would not fill with water - but I still wouldn't tow it. As to carrying on deck... a major pain in the ass unless you have a 60 ft boat. Any other questions? I've sold about a million dollars worth of Kayaks and have owned up to five at one time and still have a couple of folders (which are what I recomend and use on my sailboat). If you want an economical folder check out pac boat. regards, Capt Spammy On 3 Feb 2006 14:02:52 -0800, " wrote: Does anyone have experience either storing an ocean kayak (closed, sit on top variety) on a 27 foot sailboat, or towing it behind? What are your experiences? Doable? Horrible? Good idea? Thanks! |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
Tried this last year for a weekend. Bigger sailboat, perhaps smaller
kayaks. Good results. We were out for the weekend on a C&C 35 Mk. I and took two friends and their two rotomold kayaks, about 16 or 17 feet long. They fit on deck on edge between the shrouds and the cabin top. They made it a bit more difficult to go forward to tend to bow lines, sails, etc. but not too big a deal. You had to pay more attention to the jib sheets when tacking as once a sheet hooked under a kayak, forcing us to tack back to clear it. This was all in protected waters, the Bras d'Or Lakes, and in generally good weather with wind in the 10 to 20 knot range. We did try towing briefly but they track too well, going off in one straight line until jerked onto another straight line, rather annoying wandering around behind like that. I think the painters wouldn't have lasted very long. We were really glad we had brought the kayaks along as they were great for exploring once we were tucked into an anchorage for the evening and in the morning so our guests could have a little privacy and "sleep in." As Steve says, my experience for what it's worth... -- Ken Heaton & Anne Tobin Cape Breton Island, Canada kenheaton at eastlink dot ca wrote in message oups.com... Does anyone have experience either storing an ocean kayak (closed, sit on top variety) on a 27 foot sailboat, or towing it behind? What are your experiences? Doable? Horrible? Good idea? Thanks! |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
Spammy Spamson wrote:
OK, from experience - don't tow a kayak. Except for river or squirt boats the majority of Kayaks are designed to track in a straight line. All goes well until you tack. The painter slakens a bit, then rightens and your Kayak continues on it's merry way on your LAST course, until it is dragged sideways, flips over and fills with water. That should be the same for boats shouldn't it? That does not address your particular question about sit on tops however as it would not fill with water - but I still wouldn't tow it. I am still looking for experience, not opinion. As to carrying on deck... a major pain in the ass unless you have a 60 ft boat. Concur Any other questions? I've sold about a million dollars worth of Kayaks and have owned up to five at one time and still have a couple of folders (which are what I recomend and use on my sailboat). Me too. If you want an economical folder check out pac boat. My pac boat google's first hit was a pac boat being launched on a lake that was a little choppy and it was taking on water. Didn't look like much boat for a dinghy replacement. Gaz |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
Ken Heaton wrote:
Tried this last year for a weekend. Bigger sailboat, perhaps smaller kayaks. Good results. We were out for the weekend on a C&C 35 Mk. I and took two friends and their two rotomold kayaks, about 16 or 17 feet long. They fit on deck on edge between the shrouds and the cabin top. They made it a bit more difficult to go forward to tend to bow lines, sails, etc. but not too big a deal. You had to pay more attention to the jib sheets when tacking as once a sheet hooked under a kayak, forcing us to tack back to clear it. This was all in protected waters, the Bras d'Or Lakes, and in generally good weather with wind in the 10 to 20 knot range. We did try towing briefly but they track too well, going off in one straight line until jerked onto another straight line, rather annoying wandering around behind like that. I think the painters wouldn't have lasted very long. We were really glad we had brought the kayaks along as they were great for exploring once we were tucked into an anchorage for the evening and in the morning so our guests could have a little privacy and "sleep in." As Steve says, my experience for what it's worth... That is interesting. Thanks. |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
Ken Heaton wrote:
Tried this last year for a weekend. Bigger sailboat, perhaps smaller kayaks. Good results. We were out for the weekend on a C&C 35 Mk. I and took two friends and their two rotomold kayaks, about 16 or 17 feet long. They fit on deck on edge between the shrouds and the cabin top. They made it a bit more difficult to go forward to tend to bow lines, sails, etc. but not too big a deal. You had to pay more attention to the jib sheets when tacking as once a sheet hooked under a kayak, forcing us to tack back to clear it. This was all in protected waters, the Bras d'Or Lakes, and in generally good weather with wind in the 10 to 20 knot range. We did try towing briefly but they track too well, going off in one straight line until jerked onto another straight line, rather annoying wandering around behind like that. I think the painters wouldn't have lasted very long. We were really glad we had brought the kayaks along as they were great for exploring once we were tucked into an anchorage for the evening and in the morning so our guests could have a little privacy and "sleep in." As Steve says, my experience for what it's worth... Found a review of 9 different 'bag boats' that might be useful as a portable way to go ashore ffrom a moored sailboat. http://tinyurl.com/ar3t2 |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
Logs dive. Actually, I think it would dive, depending on the speed it was
towed. It would surface immediately, but that would put a lot of strain on the line.... hmmm... -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Gary" wrote in message news:ePAFf.342302$tl.292301@pd7tw3no... Wayne.B wrote: On Sat, 04 Feb 2006 17:12:39 GMT, Gary wrote: The only thing that I can think of that would be of concern is it flipping over in a seaway and diving. Flipping over is a matter of "when", not "if". It would be good no know in advance how it will react after it flips. I've had 2 towed inflatables flip over, once with a 65 lb outboard motor on the back, and 1 fiberglass dinghy capsize while being towed. It happens with amazing speed under the right conditions, and it doesn't have to be especially rough. I see no reason to think that a kayak is immune. I don't think the kayak would be immune to flipping. I am interested in what it does after flipping. Unlike a hardshell dinghy, it won't fill with water or behave like a drogue. Unlike a zodiac it shouldn't start to come apart. The kayak can't fill with water and will either dive or just flip back again. Remember, it is more like a log than a boat. Gary |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
Capt. JG wrote:
Logs dive. Actually, I think it would dive, depending on the speed it was towed. It would surface immediately, but that would put a lot of strain on the line.... hmmm... From this site: http://www.wavelengthmagazine.com/2005/fm05primer.php "Kayaks do not tow well. They tend to surf a boat’s wake, go broadside and flip. Two kayaks will tow better than one if they are lashed together at the bow and stern, creating a catamaran shape. The best plan for towing is to put them inside your dinghy if you don’t have enough room on the deck." |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
"Jeff" wrote in message
... Capt. JG wrote: Logs dive. Actually, I think it would dive, depending on the speed it was towed. It would surface immediately, but that would put a lot of strain on the line.... hmmm... From this site: http://www.wavelengthmagazine.com/2005/fm05primer.php "Kayaks do not tow well. They tend to surf a boat’s wake, go broadside and flip. Two kayaks will tow better than one if they are lashed together at the bow and stern, creating a catamaran shape. The best plan for towing is to put them inside your dinghy if you don’t have enough room on the deck." Jeff, this is invalid...Gary only wants to hear about your own experiences. :-) -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
Capt. JG wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message ... Capt. JG wrote: Logs dive. Actually, I think it would dive, depending on the speed it was towed. It would surface immediately, but that would put a lot of strain on the line.... hmmm... From this site: http://www.wavelengthmagazine.com/2005/fm05primer.php "Kayaks do not tow well. They tend to surf a boat’s wake, go broadside and flip. Two kayaks will tow better than one if they are lashed together at the bow and stern, creating a catamaran shape. The best plan for towing is to put them inside your dinghy if you don’t have enough room on the deck." Jeff, this is invalid...Gary only wants to hear about your own experiences. :-) Actually, he and the OP do ask an interesting question - since a sit-on-top can't fill, will it really be a problem to tow? Although I have such a beast, I haven't tried towing, since most of my trips start or end in crowded harbors or involve nasty sections, like Wood's Hole, where you don't want to experiment. However, I've been put off of any thoughts of trying by descriptions such as the link I posted, and a book that said it was stressful on the hull to tow above its hull speed. Also, it only takes a few minutes to lift it on deck; its so easy that we do that in preference to launching the dinghy if conditions allow. If I did have to tow it, I think I'd pull it tight and lift the bow some, so that it drags butt - it might stay well behaved in that mode. |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
Capt. JG wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message ... Capt. JG wrote: Logs dive. Actually, I think it would dive, depending on the speed it was towed. It would surface immediately, but that would put a lot of strain on the line.... hmmm... From this site: http://www.wavelengthmagazine.com/2005/fm05primer.php "Kayaks do not tow well. They tend to surf a boat’s wake, go broadside and flip. Two kayaks will tow better than one if they are lashed together at the bow and stern, creating a catamaran shape. The best plan for towing is to put them inside your dinghy if you don’t have enough room on the deck." Jeff, this is invalid...Gary only wants to hear about your own experiences. :-) I think I am just gonna tow my kayak for a while and see. I'll let you guys know how it turns out. If it gets squirrily or breaks loose I'll just bring it aboard. I don't think anything awful will happen. |
Ocean Kayak and 27footer: store / tow
"Gary" wrote in message
news:a1RFf.351870$tl.349701@pd7tw3no... Capt. JG wrote: "Jeff" wrote in message ... Capt. JG wrote: Logs dive. Actually, I think it would dive, depending on the speed it was towed. It would surface immediately, but that would put a lot of strain on the line.... hmmm... From this site: http://www.wavelengthmagazine.com/2005/fm05primer.php "Kayaks do not tow well. They tend to surf a boat’s wake, go broadside and flip. Two kayaks will tow better than one if they are lashed together at the bow and stern, creating a catamaran shape. The best plan for towing is to put them inside your dinghy if you don’t have enough room on the deck." Jeff, this is invalid...Gary only wants to hear about your own experiences. :-) I think I am just gonna tow my kayak for a while and see. I'll let you guys know how it turns out. If it gets squirrily or breaks loose I'll just bring it aboard. I don't think anything awful will happen. There you go... the scientific method. Good idea! -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
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