Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

I was talking to an engineer with a local school bus manufacturer yesterday
about Rutu's progress. I mentioned that I was leaning towards a high
capacity Group 31 battery to use for the starter bank. More than the 4JH4
needs but would give me a lot of reserve. He replied that was a bad idea
on a sailboat. Seems that they no longer equip their school busses with 925
CCA Group 31's because they have a very high self discharge rate. They are
great for regular highway use but school busses like sailboats spend a lot
of time with the engine off. The 620 to 700 CCA batteries hold their charge
much better and will last a lot longer in that type service.

Just another tidbit to store away for future use.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

Glenn Ashmore wrote:
I was talking to an engineer with a local school bus manufacturer yesterday
about Rutu's progress. I mentioned that I was leaning towards a high
capacity Group 31 battery to use for the starter bank. More than the 4JH4
needs but would give me a lot of reserve. He replied that was a bad idea
on a sailboat. Seems that they no longer equip their school busses with 925
CCA Group 31's because they have a very high self discharge rate. They are
great for regular highway use but school busses like sailboats spend a lot
of time with the engine off. The 620 to 700 CCA batteries hold their charge
much better and will last a lot longer in that type service.

Just another tidbit to store away for future use.

I've used AGM's for my starting batteries. The self discharge is very
low, and the cost isn't that high.

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

Glenn Ashmore wrote:
I was talking to an engineer with a local school bus manufacturer
yesterday about Rutu's progress. I mentioned that I was leaning
towards a high capacity Group 31 battery to use for the starter bank.
More than the 4JH4 needs but would give me a lot of reserve. He
replied that was a bad idea on a sailboat. Seems that they no longer
equip their school busses with 925 CCA Group 31's because they have a
very high self discharge rate. They are great for regular highway use
but school busses like sailboats spend a lot of time with the engine
off. The 620 to 700 CCA batteries hold their charge much better and
will last a lot longer in that type service.

Just another tidbit to store away for future use.

Glenn, thanks for the info. I targeted Gr-31s as my battery
because they are cheap & readily available... the last bunch
I bought were no-maintenance types from the 'Batteries Plus'
outlet, re-labelled Exides.


Jeff wrote:
I've used AGM's for my starting batteries. The self discharge is very
low, and the cost isn't that high.


I haven't found AGMs for less than about twice the price of
'dual-purpose' Gr-31s, which are about $60 at the
farm-n-truck supply.

OTOH I'm surprised Glenn isn't buying Surrette batteries for
his boat.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

Someone help me out here. I always thought that the Group number just
specified the size/shape of the battery. Why would thhe size or capcity
affect its ability to hold a charge? Are you talking about a specific
manufacturer's battery? I can see how one manufactures group 31 my not, but
Group 31's in general?


"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:eC4Ef.15932$Dh.8853@dukeread04...
I was talking to an engineer with a local school bus manufacturer yesterday
about Rutu's progress. I mentioned that I was leaning towards a high
capacity Group 31 battery to use for the starter bank. More than the 4JH4
needs but would give me a lot of reserve. He replied that was a bad idea
on a sailboat. Seems that they no longer equip their school busses with
925 CCA Group 31's because they have a very high self discharge rate. They
are great for regular highway use but school busses like sailboats spend a
lot of time with the engine off. The 620 to 700 CCA batteries hold their
charge much better and will last a lot longer in that type service.

Just another tidbit to store away for future use.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

On Wed, 01 Feb 2006 13:03:26 -0500, DSK wrote:

OTOH I'm surprised Glenn isn't buying Surrette batteries for
his boat.

Surrette and Rolls both make great batteries, no question about that.

I'm certainly curious as to why Group 31s would have a higher self
discharge rate than others. I've never heard that before and wonder
if it could possibly have been related to a specific manufacturer or a
bad batch. Any boat left unattended should have some means of keeping
the batteries topped off in my opinion.

On my old boat I used golf cart batts for everything, never had a
problem, even starting up cold 454s. My new boat is set up for 8D
starting batts and I've left it that way but added 8 golf carts in two
separate house banks.

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

It is not all Group 31 batteries. Just the high capacity 925 CCA type.

Here is the service bulletin they got from their chassis supplier:
http://www.internationaldelivers.com...pdf/dyk128.pdf

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"johnhh" wrote in message
...
Someone help me out here. I always thought that the Group number just
specified the size/shape of the battery. Why would thhe size or capcity
affect its ability to hold a charge? Are you talking about a specific
manufacturer's battery? I can see how one manufactures group 31 my not,
but Group 31's in general?


"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:eC4Ef.15932$Dh.8853@dukeread04...
I was talking to an engineer with a local school bus manufacturer
yesterday about Rutu's progress. I mentioned that I was leaning towards a
high capacity Group 31 battery to use for the starter bank. More than the
4JH4 needs but would give me a lot of reserve. He replied that was a bad
idea on a sailboat. Seems that they no longer equip their school busses
with 925 CCA Group 31's because they have a very high self discharge rate.
They are great for regular highway use but school busses like sailboats
spend a lot of time with the engine off. The 620 to 700 CCA batteries
hold their charge much better and will last a lot longer in that type
service.

Just another tidbit to store away for future use.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

OTOH I'm surprised Glenn isn't buying Surrette batteries for his boat.

You just gotta draw the line somewhere. Besides the Trojan distributor here
in town rents his warehouse from me. :-)

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

DSK wrote:
....


Jeff wrote:

I've used AGM's for my starting batteries. The self discharge is very
low, and the cost isn't that high.


I haven't found AGMs for less than about twice the price of
'dual-purpose' Gr-31s, which are about $60 at the farm-n-truck supply.

I found Optima's at an auto shop (PEP? Autozone?) for about $100.
We'll find out in about 3 years if they do better than the el cheapo's
they replaced.


OTOH I'm surprised Glenn isn't buying Surrette batteries for his boat.

I was in my marina office asking if they could match they price I had
for 4 Trojan 105 6 Volts ($280 from a golf cart company). They could
come close using AC Delco, but not Trojan. Just then, the Surrette
distributor walked in and started explaining to me that while Trojan's
were very good, they weren't the same as Surrette's. Since the
Surrette's cost about $800 for the set, I figured that paying a third
for a bank that's almost as good was a deal. The previous Trojans had
lasted 6 hard seasons, so I didn't think Surrettes would be much
better. OTOH, the Surrettes that came with my previous boat lasted 12
years, so it might be a tossup.

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

Hello Glenn,

I am also skeptical. Couldn't find out what the CT-400 is or who wrote
it or why, but the idea that someone would make a high-capacity Group 31
battery and then recommend it only for frequent charging use sounds
almost counter-intuitive.

After a very quick check of Exide's battery application guide, it
appears that their only Group 31, 925 cca battery carries a 24-month
warranty! Talk about disposable.

They have other Group 31's with lower cca ratings carrying the same
warranty, and they also have Group 31's with lower cca ratings carrying
six and seven year warranties.

But it is probably a true statement that all of the Exide Group 31's
rated at 925 cca will not last long, for whatever reason.

A similar statement could not be made about ALL of the Exide Group 31's
with lower 925 cca ratings.

Make sense? Sounds like it might be coincidence.

Chuck

Glenn Ashmore wrote:
It is not all Group 31 batteries. Just the high capacity 925 CCA type.

Here is the service bulletin they got from their chassis supplier:
http://www.internationaldelivers.com...pdf/dyk128.pdf

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

I think what the bus company is saying about the batteries makes
perfect sense. You get CCA, the ability to put out a lot of power in a
short period, by having more plate surface area. The only way to get
more surface area in the same box size is to have more plates. More
plates will be thinner and less rugged. Reducing the space between
the plates also makes the changes in shape that is inevitable with
deep charging cycles more likely to cause plates to touch.

Self discharge should be primarily a function of surface area as that
is where the reactions take place. More surface area for more fast
output capacity has got to be a trade off for self discharge rate.
The only way to avoid these trade offs is to increase the size of the
box which is effectively what they are recommending when they suggest
increasing the number of batteries.

--

Roger Long



"chuck" wrote in message
link.net...
Hello Glenn,

I am also skeptical. Couldn't find out what the CT-400 is or who
wrote it or why, but the idea that someone would make a
high-capacity Group 31 battery and then recommend it only for
frequent charging use sounds almost counter-intuitive.

After a very quick check of Exide's battery application guide, it
appears that their only Group 31, 925 cca battery carries a 24-month
warranty! Talk about disposable.

They have other Group 31's with lower cca ratings carrying the same
warranty, and they also have Group 31's with lower cca ratings
carrying six and seven year warranties.

But it is probably a true statement that all of the Exide Group 31's
rated at 925 cca will not last long, for whatever reason.

A similar statement could not be made about ALL of the Exide Group
31's with lower 925 cca ratings.

Make sense? Sounds like it might be coincidence.

Chuck

Glenn Ashmore wrote:
It is not all Group 31 batteries. Just the high capacity 925 CCA
type.

Here is the service bulletin they got from their chassis supplier:
http://www.internationaldelivers.com...pdf/dyk128.pdf

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

On Wed, 01 Feb 2006 18:12:14 -0500, Jeff wrote:

I was in my marina office asking if they could match they price I had
for 4 Trojan 105 6 Volts ($280 from a golf cart company).

Sam's Club, usually about $55 each here in FL where there are a lot of
golf carts. It's about the cheapest way to get to 440 amp-hours that
I know of.

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

Wayne.B wrote in
:

Surrette and Rolls both make great batteries, no question about that.



They do? Why are they "better" to justify the awful price, probably
funding those fancy ads in the big boy boat rags?

Does their 400 AH battery put out more than the wetcell 400 AH battery?

Hell, for those prices the damned thing should use seawater to charge
itself!

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

Wayne.B wrote in
:

Sam's Club, usually about $55 each here in FL where there are a lot of
golf carts. It's about the cheapest way to get to 440 amp-hours that
I know of.



OH, the shame of it all....If they find out at the yacht club you're usin'
Wally World batteries...oh, I shudder at the ugly image my mind just
flashed me....(c;

Make sure they're in a hidden battery box! Download the Surette logo from
some website and print out a little picture of it. Stick it on the side of
the battery box out where yachties can see it. You'll be the envy of the
whole dock!

Geez, we'll have to change them out in the middle of the night over at the
gas dock so noone see use......how awful....(c;

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

"johnhh" wrote in
:

Someone help me out here. I always thought that the Group number just
specified the size/shape of the battery. Why would thhe size or
capcity affect its ability to hold a charge? Are you talking about a
specific manufacturer's battery? I can see how one manufactures group
31 my not, but Group 31's in general?


They use special "Group 31 lead" that wasn't minted at the Franklin Mint
like Surette battery lead all is. They also use "ordinary acid", not that
special blend of highly purified, laboratory-grade, .99976% fine the $400
battery makers all use made in tiny batches by the same chemists that
invented Amsoil oils and insecticides. Obviously, the combination of
"Group 31 Lead" and ordinary acid in the cheap ordinary plastic case is
inferior to the $400 batteries only sold at fine marine chandleries like
Waste Marine, Boater's World and Doug's Marina and Tire....

Besides....Group 31 batteries all come in ugly black plastic, not those
pretty maroon or red cases that increase CCA and AH by over 40% when placed
in a fine yacht like a Bayliner or Sea Ray....

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

"Roger Long" wrote in news:wRbEf.1929$5Q3.852
@twister.nyroc.rr.com:

deep charging cycles more likely to cause plates to touch.



I can tell this is gonna be a LONG thread....(c;

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 01 Feb 2006 18:12:14 -0500, Jeff wrote:


I was in my marina office asking if they could match they price I had
for 4 Trojan 105 6 Volts ($280 from a golf cart company).


Sam's Club, usually about $55 each here in FL where there are a lot of
golf carts. It's about the cheapest way to get to 440 amp-hours that
I know of.

Was that for Trojans, or for generics?

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

Jeff wrote:
Wayne.B wrote:

On Wed, 01 Feb 2006 18:12:14 -0500, Jeff wrote:


I was in my marina office asking if they could match they price I had
for 4 Trojan 105 6 Volts ($280 from a golf cart company).



Sam's Club, usually about $55 each here in FL where there are a lot of
golf carts. It's about the cheapest way to get to 440 amp-hours that
I know of.

Was that for Trojans, or for generics?
A quick search found Exides for $50 at Sams Club.

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

On Wed, 01 Feb 2006 21:45:52 -0500, Larry wrote:

They do? Why are they "better" to justify the awful price, probably
funding those fancy ads in the big boy boat rags?

They take abuse really well, come with great warranties, and they
offer many different configurations for semi custom installations.


Does their 400 AH battery put out more than the wetcell 400 AH battery?

Of course not, but it will do it for many more years. Take a look at
their spec sheets for charge/recharge cycles. If you really rely on
your batteries, and especially if they are in a difficult location,
that's worth a few bucks. Replacing one of my 120 lb 8Ds from behind
a DD671 and generator without damaging your back or anything else is a
VERY interesting project, not soon to be repeated I hope.

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

On Wed, 01 Feb 2006 21:50:56 -0500, Larry wrote:

Geez, we'll have to change them out in the middle of the night over at the
gas dock so noone see use......how awful....(c;

My dock is in back of the house so there's not much risk to the image
as if I cared anyway. Most of my neighbors are hard working people
who still love a value when they can find it.

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

On Wed, 01 Feb 2006 22:28:53 -0500, Jeff wrote:

Was that for Trojans, or for generics?

I forget who they are made by but they are not Trojans. Mine have
been going strong for awhile but I can't really speak to their long
term durability. There's plenty of lead in them, I know that.

Batteries used in actual golf carts take a tremendous amount of abuse
around here and I suspect that word would get around if people were
having trouble with them.

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

On Wed, 01 Feb 2006 11:32:43 -0500, Jeff wrote:

Glenn Ashmore wrote:
I was talking to an engineer with a local school bus manufacturer yesterday
about Rutu's progress. I mentioned that I was leaning towards a high
capacity Group 31 battery to use for the starter bank. More than the 4JH4
needs but would give me a lot of reserve. He replied that was a bad idea
on a sailboat. Seems that they no longer equip their school busses with 925
CCA Group 31's because they have a very high self discharge rate. They are
great for regular highway use but school busses like sailboats spend a lot
of time with the engine off. The 620 to 700 CCA batteries hold their charge
much better and will last a lot longer in that type service.

Just another tidbit to store away for future use.

I've used AGM's for my starting batteries. The self discharge is very
low, and the cost isn't that high.

I've got a Harley Davidson AGM battery I use for the running lights on
my Zodiac. I charge it from the magneto in an old Honda four-stroke. I
didn't use it all summer (it last took a charge in July) and has lived
in a frozen garage. I was pleasantly surprised to read it gave 12.3
volts the other day. So I gave it an hour on a trickle charger and the
next day it read 12.6.

Good little battery and a nice introduction for me to the type.

R.

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

On Wed, 01 Feb 2006 21:50:56 -0500, Larry wrote:

Wayne.B wrote in
:

Sam's Club, usually about $55 each here in FL where there are a lot of
golf carts. It's about the cheapest way to get to 440 amp-hours that
I know of.



OH, the shame of it all....If they find out at the yacht club you're usin'
Wally World batteries...oh, I shudder at the ugly image my mind just
flashed me....(c;

Make sure they're in a hidden battery box! Download the Surette logo from
some website and print out a little picture of it. Stick it on the side of
the battery box out where yachties can see it. You'll be the envy of the
whole dock!

Geez, we'll have to change them out in the middle of the night over at the
gas dock so noone see use......how awful....(c;

You crack me up, Larry. But in a good way, unlike JAXAsshole, who I
assumed finally vanished up his own.

R.

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

Sounds like I got something wrong. Please explain.

As I understand it, metal physically moves from the plates into
solution as the batteries discharge and back as they charge. Since it
doesn't redeposit perfectly, the plates become lumpy. The greater the
discharge, the greater this effect. Lower clearance between the
plates make the battery less tolerant.

Batteries are far from the center of my expertise so I'm not
embarrassed to be wrong. What am I missing here?

--

Roger Long



"Larry" wrote in message
...
"Roger Long" wrote in news:wRbEf.1929$5Q3.852
@twister.nyroc.rr.com:

deep charging cycles more likely to cause plates to touch.



I can tell this is gonna be a LONG thread....(c;

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

Larry wrote:
snip when placed in a fine yacht like a Bayliner or Sea Ray....

fine yachts indeed!
Recently I found out that there are actually 3 types of yachts cruising
the Great Lakes. Sitting in the cockpit of our sailboat soaking up some
sun and suds the following enlightening exhange was overheard on ch. 68
in the Killarney Channel.

"Sportsman's, Sportsman's, Sportsman's, this is the Lotsa Lettuce, Lotsa
Lettuce, Lotsa Lettuce over..."

"Lotsa Lettuce...this is Sportsman's good day sir"

"Ah yeah we've got a reservation and blah blah blah"

"Roger that sir, please say your length and type."

and in the stentorial tones summoned only by the likes of proprietors of
only the finest of fine yachts and perhaps Ted Baxter we heard in response

"Roger that, ahem, we're a 53 foot -insert dramatic pause here- Searay"

Well you can imagine what a revelation this was for us. As I was in the
middle of a rather largish gulp of the golden brew, my sinuses were
treated to an involuntary high-pressure beer rinse as the import of this
pronouncement washed over me. 3 types??!? Sail, power....and Searay?
My God! who knew???

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

rhys wrote in news:9963u19tfs9s30m7gbi1jl6m81v755cfa4@
4ax.com:

You crack me up, Larry. But in a good way, unlike JAXAsshole, who I
assumed finally vanished up his own.



My sarcasm WAS intended to be funny. I always get sarcastic when I see
people throwing money at some common item like a lead-acid battery that
hasn't really changed in 50 years, even if you roll the plates up around
gauze soaked in acid....just because someone is better at marketing....

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

prodigal1 wrote in :

"Roger that, ahem, we're a 53 foot -insert dramatic pause here- Searay"



Hmm...maybe he was trying to warn the dockhands that he was driving a big
boat made of putty so they'd be very careful not to bump it into the dock,
which may destroy it, unlike real fiberglass boats.

http://yachtsurvey.com/Fiberglass_Boats.htm

I can understand his wanting to warn them he was driving a Sea Bayliner....
(c;

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

"Roger Long" wrote in news:ZTlEf.6124$bU6.389
@twister.nyroc.rr.com:

As I understand it, metal physically moves from the plates into
solution as the batteries discharge and back as they charge. Since it
doesn't redeposit perfectly, the plates become lumpy. The greater the
discharge, the greater this effect. Lower clearance between the
plates make the battery less tolerant.

The plates never move...er, ah...we hope! They certainly don't want to
touch each other or the battery EXPLODES, almost instantly. Lead acid
batteries are very dangerous beasts. Boiling acid from the immense
current passing through the acid, turns to steam very quickly and just
blows the case apart, spreading acid steam throughout the boat and
corroding even the spoons inside the drawers in the galley. Seen that.

The chemistry isn't rocket science. The soft lead is eaten away and
converted into lead sulphate, in solution we hope in the electrolyte.
These ions are fairly stable in the electrolyte so we can recover them
later during charging. The conversion releases an amazing amount of
electrons at a little over 2V potential very quickly, making it a great
starting battery where we need lots of current for a short time. By
applying an external potential force, the charger, we can reverse this
chemical reaction, electrically, and recover most, but not all, of the
ions. Some ions attached themselves to each other forming a crystal of
lead sulphate which is VERY stable and, now a solid, falls out of the
electrolyte into a special cavity under the plates, out of the way. In
AGM batteries, this isn't possible, so I suppose tiny areas of the huge
surface area of the wrapped up plates simply become inert.

The plates are held apart, because lead is so soft, by insulating
separators that are a grid of several materials acid doesn't attack.
This holds the plates firmly for moving vehicles. AGM batteries are held
in place by the guaze, which performs the same exact function...allow the
acid soaked up in the gauze to attack the plates, while holding the
plates apart to prevent shorting. AGM isn't as magic as its marketing
hype. It's still a 50-year-old lead-acid battery manufactured in a
different way to reduce maintenance and volume and production costs.

Batteries are far from the center of my expertise so I'm not
embarrassed to be wrong. What am I missing here?


Don't be embarrassed at all, Roger. The combined knowledge of hulls of
everyone else on this forum is probably less than 5% of your knowledge of
the subject. We all have our specialties in modern society. You make
the hulls more efficient and faster and let us argue over the
batteries...(c;

This argument over ancient battery technology will soon be moot. Toshiba
has used nanotube technology to invent a new Lithium-Ion battery that
charges from dead to 80% of its capacity in SIXTY SECONDS and a full 100%
charge in less than 3 minutes....while amazingly losing less than 1% of
its original capacity (AH rating) in 1000 charge-discharge cycles. This
technology may make hybrid and electric cars a reality in our lifetimes.
We've never been able to charge any battery fast enough. This battery
has solved the problem. You press on the dynamic braking pedal and the
big traction motors driving the wheels charge the hell out of the new
batteries in the trunk, recovering most of the energy wasted in brake
pads on your car so we can use it again and again to drive the car.
Electric cars will plug into huge conductors at charging stations to
charge at hundreds of amperes while you're inside buying a drink and
paying the attendant for the power....in less than 3 minutes.

Instead of running the diesel for hours to recharge the house batteries
from 1% of its wasted power just waiting for lead and acid to replate the
lead plates, the new battery will charge at the full output hp the diesel
can produce, the new battery now waiting for the engine, not the other
way around. Diesel-electric propulsion will also use the prop's traction
motors as generators to recharge the batteries with every available hp
under sail....

http://www.physorg.com/news3539.html

http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Battery/index.html

MIT is working on a nanotube supercapacitor to store energy instantly.
They think possibilities of 100kW/kg is possible, three times what the
batteries can store in the same load! Here's the link:
http://lees.mit.edu/lees/projects/cn...ap_project.htm
Its life will be over 300,000 cycles....never needing replacement??
A better pdf is from the website:
http://lees.mit.edu/lees/posters/RU13_signorelli.pdf
This nanotube capacitor isn't chemical AT ALL...No chemical reaction
takes place....purely electrical in nature, storing the charging
electrons over a massive nanotube surface area in a very tiny space.

Fuji and Mitsubishi are already in full research:
http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/003339.html
You plug it in for 5 minutes, it runs 75 miles at 50. They're working to
expand this to 124 miles, soon. All in 5 minutes charging....at great
power.

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

Harry Krause wrote:


Didn't Bayliner make a sailboat at one point? A small daysailer?

Bayliner Marine made a series of boats called Buccaneers that ranged
from 18 feet to 33 feet. This was their foray into sail when fuel
prices skyrocketed in the early 70s. They were designed by some very
reputable designers including Doug Peterson and Bill Garden. They were
built to a price point and suffered from Bayliners reputation but they
were and still are a deal for liveaboards and coastal cruising. The
boats tend to have very generous amount of room inside.

http://www.geocities.com/buccaneersa...s/history.html

Gaz

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 09:40:26 -0500, Larry wrote:

"Roger Long" wrote in news:ZTlEf.6124$bU6.389
:


Instead of running the diesel for hours to recharge the house batteries
from 1% of its wasted power just waiting for lead and acid to replate the
lead plates, the new battery will charge at the full output hp the diesel
can produce, the new battery now waiting for the engine, not the other
way around. Diesel-electric propulsion will also use the prop's traction
motors as generators to recharge the batteries with every available hp
under sail....

Now you're talking! A genset and a modded Solomon, with these nanotube
babies instead of 14 house batteries and another ton of lead and acid
to haul around.

Larry, do you know if all that microscopic surface area equals a high
mass and/or density? Not that it's likely to be an issue: if these
lithium/nanotube batteries have the same weight and dimensions as
lead-acid, the ability to rapidly charge alone would find them a ready
market.

R.

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

If you think Rolls and Surette are expensive, just think what 1,000 AH of
lithium-ion batteries is going to cost! :-)

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"rhys" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 09:40:26 -0500, Larry wrote:

"Roger Long" wrote in news:ZTlEf.6124$bU6.389
:


Instead of running the diesel for hours to recharge the house batteries
from 1% of its wasted power just waiting for lead and acid to replate the
lead plates, the new battery will charge at the full output hp the diesel
can produce, the new battery now waiting for the engine, not the other
way around. Diesel-electric propulsion will also use the prop's traction
motors as generators to recharge the batteries with every available hp
under sail....

Now you're talking! A genset and a modded Solomon, with these nanotube
babies instead of 14 house batteries and another ton of lead and acid
to haul around.

Larry, do you know if all that microscopic surface area equals a high
mass and/or density? Not that it's likely to be an issue: if these
lithium/nanotube batteries have the same weight and dimensions as
lead-acid, the ability to rapidly charge alone would find them a ready
market.

R.

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 15:41:33 -0500, Glenn Ashmore wrote:

If you think Rolls and Surette are expensive, just think what 1,000 AH of
lithium-ion batteries is going to cost! :-)

This is the problem, and why they won't be used as traction
batteries in mass market vehicles for awhile.

There's been a lot of talk in battery circles lately about "the lithium
economy."

Matt O.

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

rhys wrote in news:epl4u1tijpucflmocbnuf3a5ib100bhlue@
4ax.com:

Larry, do you know if all that microscopic surface area equals a high
mass and/or density? Not that it's likely to be an issue: if these
lithium/nanotube batteries have the same weight and dimensions as
lead-acid, the ability to rapidly charge alone would find them a ready
market.

R.


They are TINY by comparison. That little Li-Ion cell in the picture with
the big spade lugs coming out the bottom is something like 5AH! The name
of all this game is SURFACE AREA. The tiny tubes have a larger surface
area than any known thing on the planet! Microscopic channels where
electrons can be stored, directly, like in the ultracapacitor or chemically
in Lithium ions....all in parallel for amazing capacity.

Keep a close eye on this evolving technology. At the moment, it answers a
LOT of tough questions about electron storage we never had answers for,
before.

Tiny and light....a cellphone you charge once a month in 3 minutes flat.

Next time that damned VHF marine handi goes dead 500 yards from the
dockhand you're trying to talk to, wish those cheap-assed NiCds NMEA put in
it were these new Li-Ion cells....(c;

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

In article 88uEf.17113$Dh.5770@dukeread04,
"Glenn Ashmore" wrote:

If you think Rolls and Surette are expensive, just think what 1,000 AH of
lithium-ion batteries is going to cost! :-)

--
Glenn Ashmore

Ahhhhh, but what a Battery you would have, comapred to what is available
now......


Bruce in alaska
--
add a 2 before @

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

Good one Larry.
Know what you mean. Think I could paste a pretty logo on my orange Helly
Hanson rain gear and fit in at the club house?
MMC

"Larry" wrote in message
...
Wayne.B wrote in
:

Sam's Club, usually about $55 each here in FL where there are a lot of
golf carts. It's about the cheapest way to get to 440 amp-hours that
I know of.



OH, the shame of it all....If they find out at the yacht club you're usin'
Wally World batteries...oh, I shudder at the ugly image my mind just
flashed me....(c;

Make sure they're in a hidden battery box! Download the Surette logo from
some website and print out a little picture of it. Stick it on the side
of
the battery box out where yachties can see it. You'll be the envy of the
whole dock!

Geez, we'll have to change them out in the middle of the night over at the
gas dock so noone see use......how awful....(c;

Interesting factoid about Group 31 batteries
 

"MMC" wrote in news:PySEf.7834$g47.1570
@tornado.tampabay.rr.com:

Good one Larry.
Know what you mean. Think I could paste a pretty logo on my orange Helly
Hanson rain gear and fit in at the club house?
MMC



I sometimes think I go out of my way to look non-nautical when I head to
the dock. I prefer Adidas to Docksiders, which I find awful uncomfortable
to stand on the deck and work all day. How in hell can anyone sail with
moccasins that have NO CUSHIONS all day?!

I do have a bright yellow waterproof nylon jacket. You can hardly see the
Old Navy logo on it. Warmest jacket I ever owned and easy to spot in the
water.