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Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... I would think that some boat interiors would become uninhabitable if the boat were dismasted. This happened in the Fastnet Race, and I'm sure it's happened other times. The boat becomes very much more stable, giving it an extremely rapid natural rocking motion. If this is sparked off by waves, the boat is all but untenable. The problem is that in those conditions a liferaft also rolls viciously, and is likely to be overturned from time to time. Three of us experienced that liferaft motion in a wind over tide, 2 metre breaking waves, just off Appledore in the Bristol Channel. It was a training exercise that went wrong. The lifeboat call-out was delayed. We were blown downwind into the race. Like being in a washing machine. Lots of minor injuries, one broken arm. Never again. We were stuck in this rotating hell for about 15 minutes, then when the lifeboat arrived it took a further 20 minutes to get us all aboard. By that time all of us were cripplingly seasick - and we were experienced sailors, used to offshore racing, who prided ourselves on our strong stomachs. Yuck. JimB |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
"News f2s" wrote in message ... "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... I would think that some boat interiors would become uninhabitable if the boat were dismasted. This happened in the Fastnet Race, and I'm sure it's happened other times. The boat becomes very much more stable, giving it an extremely rapid natural rocking motion. If this is sparked off by waves, the boat is all but untenable. The problem is that in those conditions a liferaft also rolls viciously, and is likely to be overturned from time to time. Three of us experienced that liferaft motion in a wind over tide, 2 metre breaking waves, just off Appledore in the Bristol Channel. It was a training exercise that went wrong. The lifeboat call-out was delayed. We were blown downwind into the race. Like being in a washing machine. Lots of minor injuries, one broken arm. Never again. We were stuck in this rotating hell for about 15 minutes, then when the lifeboat arrived it took a further 20 minutes to get us all aboard. By that time all of us were cripplingly seasick - and we were experienced sailors, used to offshore racing, who prided ourselves on our strong stomachs. Yuck. JimB I think you mean "because more *unstable*" right? I'm not sure what would have been worse... a washing machine with sharp objects or just an empty washing machine with soft sides. I think I'd like to avoid both! -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
"Capt. JG" wrote in message ... The boat becomes very much more stable, giving it an extremely rapid natural rocking motion. If this is sparked off by waves, the boat is all but untenable. I think you mean "because more *unstable*" right? I'm not sure what would have been worse... a washing machine with sharp objects or just an empty washing machine with soft sides. I think I'd like to avoid both! No, I meant stable! Take the top weight of the mast off, and the centre of gravity of the boat drops down, so the righting moment goes up. Add to that the fact that the mast's inertia has gone, and the boat now reacts very much more quickly to any disturbance - then rolls back and forth, one cycle every couple of seconds. JimB |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
Nope. It doesn't work like that. You would think it would, but it doesn't.
We had a dismasting on the bay (one of my students). It was caused by a hairline crack. They were pounding up to the Golden Gate area from Alcatraz on a typical 20-25 knot day in 3-4 foot chop. After the mast came down, the boat was almost uncontrollable as it drifted back down hill. Finally, after they cut away the mast, they were able to motor back to the slip, and according to the crew who we interviewed, it was the worst part of the trip. The boat was so unstable a couple of people got sea sick. You said it yourself in your final paragraph... that is the definition of instability. In addition, if the conditions are bad enough to roll a boat, the mast would act as a break when it goes into the water. This would actually slow the roll effect. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "News f2s" wrote in message ... "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... The boat becomes very much more stable, giving it an extremely rapid natural rocking motion. If this is sparked off by waves, the boat is all but untenable. I think you mean "because more *unstable*" right? I'm not sure what would have been worse... a washing machine with sharp objects or just an empty washing machine with soft sides. I think I'd like to avoid both! No, I meant stable! Take the top weight of the mast off, and the centre of gravity of the boat drops down, so the righting moment goes up. Add to that the fact that the mast's inertia has gone, and the boat now reacts very much more quickly to any disturbance - then rolls back and forth, one cycle every couple of seconds. JimB |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 11:18:35 -0000, "News f2s"
wrote: Add to that the fact that the mast's inertia has gone, and the boat now reacts very much more quickly to any disturbance - then rolls back and forth, one cycle every couple of seconds. That was my experience, quicker motion and greater amplitude of rolling. Very unpleasant. |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 21:01:27 -0800, Evan Gatehouse
wrote: Richard Woods (the skipper of the cat we're discussing) is British and his boat is UK Flagged - and this is international waters. What felony law would apply? Good question, and I have no idea. For US citizens it is clear cut: You are required to obey an order from a law enforcement officer, and the USCG qualifies as such. |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
No, I meant stable! Take the top weight of the mast off, and
the centre of gravity of the boat drops down, so the righting moment goes up. Add to that the fact that the mast's inertia has gone, and the boat now reacts very much more quickly to any disturbance - then rolls back and forth, one cycle every couple of seconds. "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... Nope. It doesn't work like that. You would think it would, but it doesn't. We had a dismasting on the bay (one of my students). It was caused by a hairline crack. They were pounding up to the Golden Gate area from Alcatraz on a typical 20-25 knot day in 3-4 foot chop. After the mast came down, the boat was almost uncontrollable as it drifted back down hill. Finally, after they cut away the mast, they were able to motor back to the slip, and according to the crew who we interviewed, it was the worst part of the trip. The boat was so unstable a couple of people got sea sick. You said it yourself in your final paragraph... that is the definition of instability. For clarity, I'm only talking about the rolling stability. There are two types of roll stability we're perhaps confusing here. First, static stability is the tendency of a boat to right itself once it has been heeled over. After a single disturbance the boat will rock side to side a couple of times until the motion dies off. If static stability decreases, the boat will right more slowly after a disturbance. If statically unstable, the boat will roll upside down. If, on the other hand, static stability increases, the boat tries to right itself more quickly than before. The rocking motion will speed up. If the rocking motion dies away, you have dynamic stability too. Dynamic instability is when an oscillation builds up instead, until either something breaks or there's a breakdown in the circumstances. The best example of this is the 'death roll' enjoyed by a downwind boat with too much sail up for the wind. Our relevant example is when the wave frequency disturbing a dismasted boat is the same as the (quicker) tendency to rock back and forth. The rocking amplitude will then increase (instead of dying away) until it reaches some peak value, when there's usually some hiatus before the whole lot starts off again. Incredibly uncomfortable. Dynamic instability, caused by excessive static stability raising the boat's natural rocking frequency to match the wave frequency. JimB |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
"News f2s" wrote in message
... No, I meant stable! Take the top weight of the mast off, and the centre of gravity of the boat drops down, so the righting moment goes up. Add to that the fact that the mast's inertia has gone, and the boat now reacts very much more quickly to any disturbance - then rolls back and forth, one cycle every couple of seconds. "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... Nope. It doesn't work like that. You would think it would, but it doesn't. We had a dismasting on the bay (one of my students). It was caused by a hairline crack. They were pounding up to the Golden Gate area from Alcatraz on a typical 20-25 knot day in 3-4 foot chop. After the mast came down, the boat was almost uncontrollable as it drifted back down hill. Finally, after they cut away the mast, they were able to motor back to the slip, and according to the crew who we interviewed, it was the worst part of the trip. The boat was so unstable a couple of people got sea sick. You said it yourself in your final paragraph... that is the definition of instability. For clarity, I'm only talking about the rolling stability. There are two types of roll stability we're perhaps confusing here. First, static stability is the tendency of a boat to right itself once it has been heeled over. After a single disturbance the boat will rock side to side a couple of times until the motion dies off. If static stability decreases, the boat will right more slowly after a disturbance. If statically unstable, the boat will roll upside down. If, on the other hand, static stability increases, the boat tries to right itself more quickly than before. The rocking motion will speed up. If the rocking motion dies away, you have dynamic stability too. Dynamic instability is when an oscillation builds up instead, until either something breaks or there's a breakdown in the circumstances. The best example of this is the 'death roll' enjoyed by a downwind boat with too much sail up for the wind. Our relevant example is when the wave frequency disturbing a dismasted boat is the same as the (quicker) tendency to rock back and forth. The rocking amplitude will then increase (instead of dying away) until it reaches some peak value, when there's usually some hiatus before the whole lot starts off again. Incredibly uncomfortable. Dynamic instability, caused by excessive static stability raising the boat's natural rocking frequency to match the wave frequency. JimB Ah, well, then for the other kind of stability, you should get a multi. :-) -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
In article ,
Wayne.B wrote: On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 21:01:27 -0800, Evan Gatehouse wrote: Richard Woods (the skipper of the cat we're discussing) is British and his boat is UK Flagged - and this is international waters. What felony law would apply? Good question, and I have no idea. For US citizens it is clear cut: You are required to obey an order from a law enforcement officer, and the USCG qualifies as such. In International Waters, a UK Flagged Vessel, skippered by a UK Resident would only have to comply with Lawfull Orders of a UK Warship, by International Convention. However any Warship of any Flag, may ask the UK Government for Premission to Board, thru its Ambasador to the UK, and with a good Probubal Cause Showing, these types of requests are routinely granted to Governments, who are contigiuous to the position of the vessel. All of the previous, notwithstanding, the REAL Law of the Sea is, "He who has the Biggest Guns present, decides what the Law is at that moment in time". I remenber back a decade or two the US and Canada were having a dispute over Pacific Red Salmon Fishing. The Canadians decided to charge US Flagged Fishing Vessels, transiting the Inside Passage between Washington and Alaska a "Transit Tax", and stated that they would enforce the collection of said "Tax" with Armed Canadian Coast Guard Vessels. This would have been contrary to Ratified Treaties between the two Countries. This so incensed the two Senators from Washington State that "Scoop Jackson" stated on the Floor of the Senate, that if the Canadian Government did actuall act in this manner, the US would respond by convoying it's transiting Fishing Vessels and escort them with a Destroyers from Bremerton Navy Yard, and if a Candaian Coast Guard Vessel poiked it's bow over the horizion, the Destroyer would sink that ship, faster than the blink of an eye. That threat, ended any talk of "Armed Canadian Coast Guard Vessels", and the US reimbused the collected "Tax" from fisherman, untill the Canadians stopped collecting it and repaid the US Government for ALL funds collected. "He who has the Biggest Guns present, decides what the Law is at that moment in time" Bruce in alaska -- add a 2 before @ |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
http://cruisersforum.com/showthread....14183f29db2dde...
Mayday off coast of Mexico so what's the story, does anybody know if this guy ever found his boat ? |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
I still haven't been able to find any update on the search for Eclipse. I tried calling Woods Designs in England a few times but there's nobody there to answer the phone. If this boat hasn't been found then how wide would you expect the search area to be after 2 weeks ? |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
"Capt. JG" wrote in message ... Ah, well, then for the other kind of stability, you should get a multi. :-) The ultimate in static stability, created by hull form rather than pendulum weight. Faithfully and quickly follows the contour of every passing wave. But, goes neutral at about 45 degrees heel. Also is also stable upside down. Like some wide-beamed long distance racers. A rare event, luckily. JimB |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
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Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
On 30 Jan 2006 22:46:54 -0800, "purple_stars"
wrote: so what's the story, does anybody know if this guy ever found his boat ? It will depend on wind and ocean currents, unlikely any time soon. |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
Bruce in Alaska wrote:
the REAL Law of the Sea is, "He who has the Biggest Guns present, decides what the Law is at that moment in time". I remenber back a decade or two the US and Canada were having a dispute over Pacific Red Salmon Fishing. The Canadians decided to charge US Flagged Fishing Vessels, transiting the Inside Passage between Washington and Alaska a "Transit Tax", and stated that they would enforce the collection of said "Tax" with Armed Canadian Coast Guard Vessels. What a load of BS. Canadian Coast Guard vessels are not armed. They tend buoys and do SAR. They have nothing to do with enforcing sovereignty. This would have been contrary to Ratified Treaties between the two Countries. This so incensed the two Senators from Washington State that "Scoop Jackson" stated on the Floor of the Senate, that if the Canadian Government did actuall act in this manner, the US would respond by convoying it's transiting Fishing Vessels and escort them with a Destroyers from Bremerton Navy Yard, and if a Candaian Coast Guard Vessel poiked it's bow over the horizion, the Destroyer would sink that ship, faster than the blink of an eye. Some two bit Senator said that and the US Navy would jump? BS. American warships aren't allowed to transit the Inside Passage without diplomatic clearances, just like we can't go down into Puget Sound without dip clearances. To do otherwise is an act of aggression. That threat, ended any talk of "Armed Canadian Coast Guard Vessels", and the US reimbused the collected "Tax" from fisherman, untill the Canadians stopped collecting it and repaid the US Government for ALL funds collected. Like many Americans, you write your own history. As I recall the problem was the disputed area between Canada and Alaska and the fact that US flagged fishing boats over fishing in the disputed area. Canada said that unless quotas were adhered to then US boats could no longer transit the Inside Passage (Canadian waters) between the lower 48 and Alaska. Of course we came to an amicable agreement without threats, although the border is still disputed. See: http://www.craigmarlatt.com/canada/c..._disputes.html For our disputed borders. "He who has the Biggest Guns present, decides what the Law is at that moment in time" Bruce in alaska Gaz in Canada |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
Wayne. B
Jan 29, 7:58 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.boats.cruising From: Wayne.B - Find messages by this author Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:58:42 -0500 Local: Sun, Jan 29 2006 7:58 pm Subject: Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 21:01:27 -0800, Evan Gatehouse wrote: Richard Woods (the skipper of the cat we're discussing) is British and his boat is UK Flagged - and this is international waters. What felony law would apply? Good question, and I have no idea. For US citizens it is clear cut: You are required to obey an order from a law enforcement officer, and the USCG qualifies as such. Once again Wayne B. is right on. The USCG and USN can stop anybody- anywhere- anytime, board you and drag your sorry ass to the brig. For the US gov there is no such thing as "international waters." They call it Drug Enforcment.Try this: you are sitting in some SE Asian country drinking a beer. Decide to take that cute girl up on her offer for a lilttle suckie suckie. Problem is she is a little young. The US can and has arrested US citizens for child rape while in another county. Do not pass go, Do not collets $200, Go directly to jail. The US has some very long arms. Bob |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
Bob wrote:
Wayne. B Jan 29, 7:58 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.boats.cruising From: Wayne.B - Find messages by this author Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:58:42 -0500 Local: Sun, Jan 29 2006 7:58 pm Subject: Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 21:01:27 -0800, Evan Gatehouse wrote: Richard Woods (the skipper of the cat we're discussing) is British and his boat is UK Flagged - and this is international waters. What felony law would apply? Good question, and I have no idea. For US citizens it is clear cut: You are required to obey an order from a law enforcement officer, and the USCG qualifies as such. Once again Wayne B. is right on. The USCG and USN can stop anybody- anywhere- anytime, board you and drag your sorry ass to the brig. For the US gov there is no such thing as "international waters." They call it Drug Enforcment.Try this: you are sitting in some SE Asian country drinking a beer. Decide to take that cute girl up on her offer for a lilttle suckie suckie. Problem is she is a little young. The US can and has arrested US citizens for child rape while in another county. Do not pass go, Do not collets $200, Go directly to jail. The US has some very long arms. Bob You got that right! Some stupid young guy here in my home provinve started talking tash and threatening George W. on the internet. Next thing..the Secret Service called the Mounties and that kid was rounded up and charged. Not sure if his case has come before the courts yet. |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
Hello:
To bring this thread back to the start of this post................ I have met over the years people who say they have 45 years experience and hundreds of thousands of miles under their keel. We are lead to believe that experience and miles equals ability and knowledge. However, I have learned that "experienced " skippers may simply have repeated mistakes made their first year 30 times. The skipper of the cat in his own words: "....However, in 45 years of sailing and around 70,000 of offshore sailing, I have never had to stop sailing because of bad weather. So it had all been theory for me, until now...." Sounds as though the skipper of the cat has 45 years of very limited experiences and also learned little along the way. At least he was honest. I was reading an interesting account of the 1979 Fastnet fiasco a few years back. Read the quote below and ask yourself does experience equal skill? The following quote is from an interview with Bill Burrows, Chief Engineer Royal Navy Lifeboat Institution. He retrieved three disabled sailboats in a 21 hour rescue during the fatal 1979 Fastnet Storm. "... Look, you get 300 Yachats in poor weather and you're going to have some trouble, almost certainly. But the majority of the trouble was hysteria created by the situation and by inexperienced crews. And that it was. They were blaming rudders and such, but none of those rudders would have snapped if they had put drogues out and storm jibs and run before the weather. They were under bare poles, most of them, and they were getting up on the seas. And the seas were about 45 feet. NOT WHAT WE AROUND HERE CALL BIG. They got up on these seas and they were running. When the boats were starting to broach, what the helmsmen were doing was hauling on the rudders to stop them from broaching. They were putting too much bloody strain on the rudders, and they had to go. Yes, I know they were racing sailors, not cruising men, but that's no excuse. WE WENT OUT THAT NIGHT AND WE PASSED A LITTLE OLD HOOKER SORT OF THING WITH A FAMILY OF KIDS ABOARD AND THEY WERE GOING AWAY TO IRELAND WITH NO TROUBLE AT ALL...." Which brings me back to the topic of FREAK waves........... Some people actually learn something in their 45 years sailing others are only doomed to repeat their same mistakes until they get caught. The problem is that some skippers hide behind their "sea service" in hopes to sound important and knowledgeable. Its not how long you do something......Its what you learn along the way. Bob |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
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Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
Gogarty wrote in news:
The US may not stop a foreign flag vessel in international waters unless it has the permission of the government whose flag it is. But like so much else these days, that's a mere technicality to be brushed aside. Too many governmenst routinely grant blanket authority. Can you imagine the uproasr if Iran started stopping US flag vessels in the Persian Gulf? EG First you'd have to find a vessel (other than Navy) in the Persian Gulf with a US flag, then you'd have to find one that wasn't under US government charter. |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
While reading rec.boats.cruising, I noticed ray lunder
felt compelled to write: Is there a general guideline for drogue size? My boat is 23', 9' beam, tumbleholm stern, about 2.5 tons. Also, some boats have a provision for chaining the rudder (mine doesn't) to avoid being bent by a following wave. I assume the drogue is deployed on a line whose length is somehow related to wave height or interval? Can you elaborate on this? How do you avoid having the cockpit filled with seawater? Thank you. www.seriesdrogue.com particularly: http://seriesdrogue.com/designersnot...nersnotes.html the other designers notes and research data on this site will answer all the above. Ian |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
The best $20 bucks you will ever spend. Cuts right through all the BS
you'll here from people who have 45 years and 100s of thousands of miles "experience." For example, the cat owner in this earlier discussion. Hinz, Earl R. (2000), Heavy Weather Tactics Using Sea Anchors and Drogues. Arcata, CA: Paradise Cay Publications (ISBN 0 939837 37 4). Bob |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
In article .com,
"Bob" wrote: Good question, and I have no idea. For US citizens it is clear cut: You are required to obey an order from a law enforcement officer, and the USCG qualifies as such. Well now, the above is not exactly true. For US Flagged and Documented Vessels, the USCG, US Marshals, and the US Navy, if at sea are the only people that can board, without the Captain's Permission. Local LEO's sometimes try to extend their Jurasdiction to Documented Vessels, and have done so in US Waters, only to have any evidence seized thrown out of Court for Illeagal Search. Having been a Federal Agent, with Enforcement Powers, I still had to go find a US Marshal, or Coastie, to board a US Flagged and Documented Vessel, against the Captains wishes. I have had to do this numerious times, and the proceedure was always the same. Usually it has been something simple, but on one occasion a collegue had to go find a local Coastie to accompany him back to so a SixPack Inspection on a local Charter Vessel, where boarding was denied by the Skipper. I stood watch while the USCG was rounded up, and they actually came in force, armed, with a CPO in charge of the detail. We conducted our inspection, found numerious violations and PickSlipped the Vessel, but the CPO looked in the bildge, found a pile of Dope, and hauled the skipper and Mate off in cuffs. I was called as a witness, to document the timeline of the observation of the vessel in question, and the skipper was convicted, and the Mate as well. Ever wonder why it is the US Marshals that conduct sales of documented vessels that are siezed in US Waters, and it is the Marshals that do the siezing? Maritime Law is different that any other LAW, and it has different requirements than normal shoreside Law. Bruce in alaska -- add a 2 before @ |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
Hi Bruce:
Sounds as though you may have some insight here. How about a "what if." Lets say I am a US citizen sailing about 350 miles off the CA shore. I am not flying any flags. After all, I am less than 12 meters LOA and a recreational vessel. I just spent a few months in Peru and returning home to Astoria, Or. A US warship says, pull over we want to board. Can I tell them to buzz off and keep sailing? Bob |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
On 6 Feb 2006 13:25:18 -0800, "Bob" wrote:
A US warship says, pull over we want to board. Can I tell them to buzz off and keep sailing? Not for long. |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
Bob wrote:
Hi Bruce: Sounds as though you may have some insight here. How about a "what if." Lets say I am a US citizen sailing about 350 miles off the CA shore. I am not flying any flags. After all, I am less than 12 meters LOA and a recreational vessel. I just spent a few months in Peru and returning home to Astoria, Or. A US warship says, pull over we want to board. Can I tell them to buzz off and keep sailing? Bob As the Captain of a Canadian warship, I can tell you, we can't do that. We'd need probable cause and loads of approval. We'd probably just put some other resources on you and watch you quite closely until we got the permission. Now, in the Persian Gulf...... |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
Gary wrote:
Bob wrote: Hi Bruce: Sounds as though you may have some insight here. How about a "what if." Lets say I am a US citizen sailing about 350 miles off the CA shore. I am not flying any flags. After all, I am less than 12 meters LOA and a recreational vessel. I just spent a few months in Peru and returning home to Astoria, Or. A US warship says, pull over we want to board. Can I tell them to buzz off and keep sailing? Bob As the Captain of a Canadian warship, I can tell you, we can't do that. We'd need probable cause and loads of approval. We'd probably just put some other resources on you and watch you quite closely until we got the permission. Now, in the Persian Gulf...... Sail on one of the 'Halifax Class' ships? |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
Don White wrote:
Gary wrote: Bob wrote: Hi Bruce: Sounds as though you may have some insight here. How about a "what if." Lets say I am a US citizen sailing about 350 miles off the CA shore. I am not flying any flags. After all, I am less than 12 meters LOA and a recreational vessel. I just spent a few months in Peru and returning home to Astoria, Or. A US warship says, pull over we want to board. Can I tell them to buzz off and keep sailing? Bob As the Captain of a Canadian warship, I can tell you, we can't do that. We'd need probable cause and loads of approval. We'd probably just put some other resources on you and watch you quite closely until we got the permission. Now, in the Persian Gulf...... Sail on one of the 'Halifax Class' ships? No. HMCS Oriole. www.navy.gc.ca/oriole |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 01:11:41 GMT, Gary wrote:
No. HMCS Oriole. www.navy.gc.ca/oriole Cool. Are you allowed warning shots across the bow in port/starboard encounters? |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
Gary wrote:
Don White wrote: Gary wrote: Bob wrote: Hi Bruce: Sounds as though you may have some insight here. How about a "what if." Lets say I am a US citizen sailing about 350 miles off the CA shore. I am not flying any flags. After all, I am less than 12 meters LOA and a recreational vessel. I just spent a few months in Peru and returning home to Astoria, Or. A US warship says, pull over we want to board. Can I tell them to buzz off and keep sailing? Bob As the Captain of a Canadian warship, I can tell you, we can't do that. We'd need probable cause and loads of approval. We'd probably just put some other resources on you and watch you quite closely until we got the permission. Now, in the Persian Gulf...... Sail on one of the 'Halifax Class' ships? No. HMCS Oriole. www.navy.gc.ca/oriole Lucky you!.. What's with that picture of you leading 'Bluenose II'? Someone doctor it up for propaganda purposes? I've got a couple of nieces in the Navy. One is a recruiter and the other is reserve (fleet diving) |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
In article .com,
"Bob" wrote: Hi Bruce: Sounds as though you may have some insight here. How about a "what if." Lets say I am a US citizen sailing about 350 miles off the CA shore. I am not flying any flags. After all, I am less than 12 meters LOA and a recreational vessel. I just spent a few months in Peru and returning home to Astoria, Or. A US warship says, pull over we want to board. Can I tell them to buzz off and keep sailing? Bob At that point Maritime Law says "He who has the Biggest Guns at the momment, decides what the Law is, at that momment"..... I suspect that you would be hailed, and asked, to state, or show a Flag. If you choose not to, then you would be boarded as a "Pirate". If you choose to lie, and declare a Flag of another nation, and got caught, you would be boarded and taken into custody as a Pirate. If you stated you were a US Flagged vessel, you would be boarded and inspected like any other US Flagged Vessel. The US Navy, wouldn't be hailing you on the High Seas, unless they had a specific Tasking to do so, so I suspect that this wouldn't actually be a real senerio. The USCG however does routinely hail and board unFlagged vessels in international waters. Bruce in alaska -- add a 2 before @ |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
Thank you Bruce. Bob |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
Mic wrote:
We left Nicaragua on Friday 13th, which probably didn't help matters, and had a very frustrating sail along the coast of El Salvador and then Guatemala. Frustrating, as the weather was really changeable. For example we went from motoring to sailing under reefed genoa alone in under 2 minutes. But we did have some nice sailing for a couple of hours each day - then followed by several hours of motoring. So it was taking longer than we wanted to get to Mexico and we were both getting tired, but Jetti, as always, was preparing good food. There was a time constraint as we knew there would be a bad gale coming through the Gulf of Tehuantepec on Wednesday afternoon, and we had wanted to get past that area by then. Sadly we didn't quite make it. The wind got up very quickly from south 7-10 knots to north west 30. As we got away from land the wind increased more. There are several proven, accepted, techniques for handling bad weather in a catamaran. If the wave and wind are not too severe, one can just heave to or take down all sail and lie ahull. I am surprised no one has mentioned that trying to cut straight across the Gulf of Tehuantepec in January (which is when this happened according to news reports) is wildly reckless. As even some cursory research will show, the winds in the Gulf of Tehuantepec in January are pretty much non-stop gales. Even if someone predicted that the winds in the Gulf would be less than gale force in January, I wouldn't believe them for a second. The only non-suicidal way to traverse Tehuatepec in January is stop in Puerto Madero and wait patiently for a weather window (which may take weeks) and then stay 50 feet off the beach and creep along the shoreline the whole way around. The other thing I found bizarre about this story was the fact that the author seemed to have little understanding of the stucture and dynamics of the Tehuantepec gales. When a Tehuantepec winter gale starts blowing it could easily last for 10 days or more, especially in January, and the zone of gale force winds can extend something like 350 or more miles out to sea. Its not like a low pressure system that blows through; its a stationary gale that can last weeks. Putting out a sea anchor in Tehuantepec in a January gale is pretty much guaranteeing that you will be beat up by gale force winds until you or your boat falls apart. Also, the Tehuantepec gales shoot out of the Gulf like a jet from a firehose; if you can work your way to the edge of the gale zone you can go from 20-30 knot winds to dead calm in the space of 5 miles. The real lesson in this story is not about heavy weather tactics, its about researching conditions before you start a passage, which these people didn't seem to do. I crossed Tehuantepec going north around late Nov 2002. I stopped at Puerto Madero, and then went to the internet cafe every day and downloaded NWS TPC weatherfax for Tehuantepec. It took 10 days until they predicted a brief break in the gales (5 knot winds for 2 days). Then we set out creeping along the shoreline. Just as we were about at the top of the Gulf the winds were still light and were still predicted to be less than 10 knots, and we decided that it couldn't be that bad to cut across the last little bit of the Gulf about 15-30 miles off the beach. Wrong. We got hit with 30 knot plus winds, double reefed the main, rolled up the jib to just a scrap, and then flew across the gulf at 2 knots over hull speed on a beam reach heeled over like crazy. Since we were relatively near shore the waves weren't too bad, and since we were near the top of the gulf we only had a short distance of the wind tunnel to cross, so after about 6-8 hours we were out the other side and motoring in dead calm, but it was still a hair raising experience. If we had tried to heave-to, or put out a sea anchor (not that we had one), we probably would have spent the next couple weeks drifting slowly downwind in non-stop gale conditions. Andy |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
Hi Andy:
So true. The original poster on this topic summed it up best whith a quote from the skipper of the cat, "....However, in 45 years of sailing and around 70,000 of offshore sailing, I have never had to stop sailing because of bad weather. So it had all been theory for me, until now...." "I don't think were're in Kansas anymore Toto." Dorthy |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
The best way to forcast a Tehauntepecer is to watch the weather in the Gulf
of Mexico. If you have a Blue Norther or strong North wind there, fiqure you're in for a pasting in Tehauntepec.....hug the beach. |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
"Andy" wrote: ... The real lesson in this story is not about heavy weather tactics, its about researching conditions before you start a passage, which these people didn't seem to do. ... I can't help but wonder if Richard Woods wanted to test his catamaran design in a heavy weather condition but just didn't expect it to get as bad as it did. |
Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
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Mayday off coast of Mexico-rescued from catamaran
Andy wrote: In any event, it offended me that Mr. Woods described what happened to him as if it was just some unlucky twist of fate that he got caught in a gale, when in fact it was almost a certainty that he would get plastered doing what he did. Andy Yes.......... I agree! And I would add humbly to Andy's observation that Freak, Maverick, and Sneaker waves might also fit with that example. Sorry guys, I really feel strongly that the unpredictable can be expected, and reasonably predicted. Its the old Observe-Anticipate-Take corrective actions routine. As mariners, we do not have the luxury to blame the fickle finger of fate for our troubles. An earlier sailor here said that a more accurate analogy would be to get into a car, drive down the road, and have a tree fall on us. How could we predict that? Anybody ever live in the mountains where an interstate freeway cuts through a pass. Ever see those 4x4 SUVs from the warmer and flatter elevations go roaring pass at 70 mph over the packed snow with a Starbucks in one hand? I usually would pass them in the ditch. A very sobering and edicational sight for my then 16 year old daughter. She learned from the mistakes of others. Ever talk to one of those SUV drivers after their crash? "All of sudden the care went completely out of control !" Duh, wonder why? So, who was driving??? Sounds a lot like those charterboat operators who killed their passengers when a Rogue Wave "came out of nowhere." Bob (Emerging Sock Puppet) |
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