Something to ponder while watching the snow.

I have a 20 year old steel cutter with original wire rigging. Ted
Brewer design.

The orignal owner fitted it out with all 1/4" 316 standing rigging.

I'm thinking of changing out part of the rigging, the back stay and fore
stay. It all looks good but just because.............

Anyway two questions:

1. Supposed I change out the wire, these are the two longest, and then
save the used wire as emergency wire. The wire fails at the bottom
connection so wack off 6" and the rest is good! No? New bottles etc.
of course.

2. Ted Brewer recently wrote in Good Old Boat about standing rigging and
is apparently partial to 304 vs 316. That does not seem to be
conventional wisdom, yet consider the source. So what say you, 304 does
have more strength for the same weight and windage. What are the
detractors and how severe?

Many thanks,

Howard

304 is stronger than 316 by about 3-5%. 316 is more corrosion
resistant. Both are terrible versus fatigue strength (endurance
limit). Failure of stanless is usually a combinationof fatigue and
crevice corrosion .... the crevice corrosion immediately following (and
is additive to) the 'early' fatigue of the base metal.
On boats or other appliications of cyclic stress, Stainless should
never be sized for 'ultimate tensile values' but at 1/3 those values to
be sure that the metal is below its endurance limit; 1/4 those values
for an 'offshore design'.


In article rs.com,
Howard wrote:

Something to ponder while watching the snow.

I have a 20 year old steel cutter with original wire rigging. Ted
Brewer design.

The orignal owner fitted it out with all 1/4" 316 standing rigging.

I'm thinking of changing out part of the rigging, the back stay and fore
stay. It all looks good but just because.............

Anyway two questions:

1. Supposed I change out the wire, these are the two longest, and then
save the used wire as emergency wire. The wire fails at the bottom
connection so wack off 6" and the rest is good! No? New bottles etc.
of course.

2. Ted Brewer recently wrote in Good Old Boat about standing rigging and
is apparently partial to 304 vs 316. That does not seem to be
conventional wisdom, yet consider the source. So what say you, 304 does
have more strength for the same weight and windage. What are the
detractors and how severe?

Many thanks,

Howard

"Howard" wrote in message
ervers.com...
Something to ponder while watching the snow.

snip
1. Supposed I change out the wire, these are the two longest, and then
save the used wire as emergency wire. The wire fails at the bottom
connection so wack off 6" and the rest is good!

Many years ago I ran a logging crew that used cable chokers. The chokers
always broke right at the ball pressed on the end of the cable.
Then we got some cables that had a second ball pressed on about 6 inches
from the first, the idea being that when the first ball broke off, you just
cut the cable at the secound ball, and presto, double the life !
Only thing, the cable must have already been weakened alot, because the
cable soon broke at the second ball.
I think I'd get new wire.

"Howard" wrote in message
ervers.com...
Something to ponder while watching the snow.

I have a 20 year old steel cutter with original wire rigging. Ted Brewer
design.

The orignal owner fitted it out with all 1/4" 316 standing rigging.

I'm thinking of changing out part of the rigging, the back stay and fore
stay. It all looks good but just because.............

Anyway two questions:

1. Supposed I change out the wire, these are the two longest, and then
save the used wire as emergency wire. The wire fails at the bottom
connection so wack off 6" and the rest is good! No? New bottles etc. of
course.

2. Ted Brewer recently wrote in Good Old Boat about standing rigging and
is apparently partial to 304 vs 316. That does not seem to be
conventional wisdom, yet consider the source. So what say you, 304 does
have more strength for the same weight and windage. What are the
detractors and how severe?


My understanding is that 316 has the same make up as 304, but also contains
"moly......" to give resistance against acid attack. It is mainly used in
the catering industry to protect against acids found in food stuffs, but
also in holding tanks and the like... I don't really see why it should have
beneficial effect on standing rigging.

Nigel wrote:
"Howard" wrote in message
ervers.com...

Something to ponder while watching the snow.

I have a 20 year old steel cutter with original wire rigging. Ted Brewer
design.

The orignal owner fitted it out with all 1/4" 316 standing rigging.

I'm thinking of changing out part of the rigging, the back stay and fore
stay. It all looks good but just because.............

Anyway two questions:

1. Supposed I change out the wire, these are the two longest, and then
save the used wire as emergency wire. The wire fails at the bottom
connection so wack off 6" and the rest is good! No? New bottles etc. of
course.

The wire fails at the bottom for a couple of reasons. One, when using
compression fittings, the metal hardens from compression (i.e. work
hardening) reducing ductibility at the wire/fitting interface which
makes this area more succeptible to cracks. And two, from corrosion due
to salt water wicking into the fittings and pitting the wire -
especially true when any micro-cracks are present presenting a
less-passive surface. 316 s/s is about 20 times more resistant to salt
pitting and corrosion than 304, and thus will last significantly longer
under sea spray conditions.

2. Ted Brewer recently wrote in Good Old Boat about standing rigging and
is apparently partial to 304 vs 316. That does not seem to be
conventional wisdom, yet consider the source. So what say you, 304 does
have more strength for the same weight and windage. What are the
detractors and how severe?

304 has slightly more tensile strength (5-10%), *for any given level of
cold worked temper* than does 316. However, you need to make sure you're
comparing apples to apples, since the tensile strength of each will
double for fully hard temper vs 1/4 hard temper (ASTM A 666, Standard
Specification for Austenitic Stainless Steel, Sheet, Strip, Plate & Flat
Bar). So fully hardened 1/4" 316 wire has almost twice the tensile
strength of 1/4 hardened 1/4" 304 wire. Thus you need to make sure of
the temper when you're comparing the two (or purchasing).

Whether the longevity of 316 will pay for the additional cost, in your
situation, I don't know. IMO, if you sail often, and sail hard, use 304
and replace more often. If you spend more time in the bay, or marina,
use 316 and replace less often.

Keith Hughes

Rod Rigging. Nitronic 50!

"Keith Hughes" wrote in message
...
Nigel wrote:
"Howard" wrote in message
ervers.com...

Something to ponder while watching the snow.

I have a 20 year old steel cutter with original wire rigging. Ted Brewer
design.

The orignal owner fitted it out with all 1/4" 316 standing rigging.

I'm thinking of changing out part of the rigging, the back stay and fore
stay. It all looks good but just because.............

Anyway two questions:

1. Supposed I change out the wire, these are the two longest, and then
save the used wire as emergency wire. The wire fails at the bottom
connection so wack off 6" and the rest is good! No? New bottles etc. of
course.

The wire fails at the bottom for a couple of reasons. One, when using
compression fittings, the metal hardens from compression (i.e. work
hardening) reducing ductibility at the wire/fitting interface which makes
this area more succeptible to cracks. And two, from corrosion due to salt
water wicking into the fittings and pitting the wire - especially true
when any micro-cracks are present presenting a less-passive surface. 316
s/s is about 20 times more resistant to salt pitting and corrosion than
304, and thus will last significantly longer under sea spray conditions.

2. Ted Brewer recently wrote in Good Old Boat about standing rigging and
is apparently partial to 304 vs 316. That does not seem to be
conventional wisdom, yet consider the source. So what say you, 304 does
have more strength for the same weight and windage. What are the
detractors and how severe?

304 has slightly more tensile strength (5-10%), *for any given level of
cold worked temper* than does 316. However, you need to make sure you're
comparing apples to apples, since the tensile strength of each will double
for fully hard temper vs 1/4 hard temper (ASTM A 666, Standard
Specification for Austenitic Stainless Steel, Sheet, Strip, Plate & Flat
Bar). So fully hardened 1/4" 316 wire has almost twice the tensile
strength of 1/4 hardened 1/4" 304 wire. Thus you need to make sure of the
temper when you're comparing the two (or purchasing).

Whether the longevity of 316 will pay for the additional cost, in your
situation, I don't know. IMO, if you sail often, and sail hard, use 304
and replace more often. If you spend more time in the bay, or marina, use
316 and replace less often.

Keith Hughes