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Jeanneau 52.2 vs. Fountaine Pajot Belize
A Jeanneau salesperson told me that a Jeanneau 52.2 can go just as fast under sail as a Fountaine Pajot Belize 42. Can this be true ? I've always thought that catamarans in general can go a lot faster than monohulls. |
Jeanneau 52.2 vs. Fountaine Pajot Belize
Its highly dependant on a number of factors, the principle your broker
is probably going on is the waterline length, the longer the boat the fast its hull speed. that why they built such huge yachts in the early 20th century(long and skinny). The the planning hull was developed which shattered all the big boats dreams!! To answer your question maybe up wind they both do the same speed but on a beam reach i wold be surprized if the cat didn't win. |
Jeanneau 52.2 vs. Fountaine Pajot Belize
We raced our Schock 35 for many years and often there was a multihull fleet
sailing the same course. F-28 Corsair Trimarans and others of the same ilk. We were very rarely beaten around the course by those multihulls.. I would tend to agree that in general a large monohull will be as fast if not faster than a cruising cat. That said, the ultimate speed machines are multihulls but they are not boats you want to cruise on. Weight is the enemy of any multihull and beer in bottles is heavy! "Jack Dale" wrote in message ... On 10 Jan 2006 04:14:13 -0800, wrote: Its highly dependant on a number of factors, the principle your broker is probably going on is the waterline length, the longer the boat the fast its hull speed. that why they built such huge yachts in the early 20th century(long and skinny). The the planning hull was developed which shattered all the big boats dreams!! To answer your question maybe up wind they both do the same speed but on a beam reach i wold be surprized if the cat didn't win. Cats generally do not point well. While they might have a a good SOG, their VMG is wanting. Jack _________________________________________ Jack Dale ISPA Yachtmaster Offshore Instructor CYA Advanced Cruising Instructor http://www.swiftsuresailing.com _________________________________________ |
Jeanneau 52.2 vs. Fountaine Pajot Belize
Jack Dale wrote:
On 10 Jan 2006 04:14:13 -0800, wrote: Its highly dependant on a number of factors, the principle your broker is probably going on is the waterline length, the longer the boat the fast its hull speed. that why they built such huge yachts in the early 20th century(long and skinny). The the planning hull was developed which shattered all the big boats dreams!! To answer your question maybe up wind they both do the same speed but on a beam reach i wold be surprized if the cat didn't win. Cats generally do not point well. While they might have a a good SOG, their VMG is wanting. This is a generalization that doesn't really hold anymore. A number of the newer cats point reasonably well. The PDQ 44, for example, in 16 knots true will tack through 84 degrees while doing almost 8 knots for a VMG of 5.9. Reaching, it will do 11 knots. In stronger wind it does even better. http://pdqyachts.com/ver2/pdfs/theCa...erformance.pdf |
Jeanneau 52.2 vs. Fountaine Pajot Belize
Bryan wrote:
We raced our Schock 35 for many years and often there was a multihull fleet sailing the same course. F-28 Corsair Trimarans and others of the same ilk. We were very rarely beaten around the course by those multihulls.. So why does the Shock have a phrf of 72 while the f27 usually has around 50? I would tend to agree that in general a large monohull will be as fast if not faster than a cruising cat. Are you seriously saying that a comparison of a Shock 35 to a F28 says anything about cruising boats?? That said, the ultimate speed machines are multihulls but they are not boats you want to cruise on. Weight is the enemy of any multihull and beer in bottles is heavy! |
Jeanneau 52.2 vs. Fountaine Pajot Belize
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Jeanneau 52.2 vs. Fountaine Pajot Belize
Not sure what you are asking Jeff? The PHRF ratings show that a Schock is a
slower boat then an F28. But in our experience was we usually beat them around the course. Do they reach faster, yes. Do the go up and down faster, no. On average we beat them. I can't deny what 30 years of racing has shown me. Let's look at the numbers. A Fountaine Pajot 35 rates 138, a Fountaine Pajot Belize 43 rates 135, a Gemini 105 rates 177. The Jeanneau 52 is 80. The Jeanneau will most likely get to the anchorage before the Pajot. The numbers are the numbers. Big cruising cats are a far cry from the monster racing cats and tri's we see on magazine covers. Cruising cats are heavy with a very small sail plans. If you cruise a powered up cat or tri and are very cautious about payload it will be fast, no doubt. But most people like stuff when cruising, and stuff is heavy, and heavy is slow for a multi. Sorry, the nod goes to the Jeanneau. Bryan "Jeff" wrote in message ... Bryan wrote: We raced our Schock 35 for many years and often there was a multihull fleet sailing the same course. F-28 Corsair Trimarans and others of the same ilk. We were very rarely beaten around the course by those multihulls.. So why does the Shock have a phrf of 72 while the f27 usually has around 50? I would tend to agree that in general a large monohull will be as fast if not faster than a cruising cat. Are you seriously saying that a comparison of a Shock 35 to a F28 says anything about cruising boats?? That said, the ultimate speed machines are multihulls but they are not boats you want to cruise on. Weight is the enemy of any multihull and beer in bottles is heavy! |
Jeanneau 52.2 vs. Fountaine Pajot Belize
Bryan wrote:
Not sure what you are asking Jeff? The PHRF ratings show that a Schock is a slower boat then an F28. But in our experience was we usually beat them around the course. Do they reach faster, yes. Do the go up and down faster, no. On average we beat them. I can't deny what 30 years of racing has shown me. So here you say that even though the F-cats are rated as substantially faster, you always beat them? But then you go on to "prove" your point by quoting the ratings. Hmmmm. Let's look at the numbers. A Fountaine Pajot 35 rates 138, a Fountaine Pajot Belize 43 rates 135, a Gemini 105 rates 177. The Jeanneau 52 is 80. The Jeanneau will most likely get to the anchorage before the Pajot. The numbers are the numbers. Well, I wasn't trying to claim that clunkers like the Belize will keep up with a 52 foot boat. In fact, all I said is that the Shock and F-cats provide no evidence at all for the question of cruising boats. But don't be too sure the Jeanneau will beat them to the anchorage. It carries about 1200 feet of sail, a handful for a cruising crew. And its rating probably includes a chute, which is unlikely to be used for short handed cruising. The cats, however, can be handled easily by 2 people without spilling a drink. I'd be curious where you found the cat phrf ratings. I seen 141 for the Gemini, and I don't think that included the chute. Big cruising cats are a far cry from the monster racing cats and tri's we see on magazine covers. Cruising cats are heavy with a very small sail plans. If you cruise a powered up cat or tri and are very cautious about payload it will be fast, no doubt. But most people like stuff when cruising, and stuff is heavy, and heavy is slow for a multi. So how do you think the Jeanneau would do against a more modern cat, such as the PDQ 44? Sorry, the nod goes to the Jeanneau. Very doubtful. Bryan "Jeff" wrote in message ... Bryan wrote: We raced our Schock 35 for many years and often there was a multihull fleet sailing the same course. F-28 Corsair Trimarans and others of the same ilk. We were very rarely beaten around the course by those multihulls.. So why does the Shock have a phrf of 72 while the f27 usually has around 50? I would tend to agree that in general a large monohull will be as fast if not faster than a cruising cat. Are you seriously saying that a comparison of a Shock 35 to a F28 says anything about cruising boats?? That said, the ultimate speed machines are multihulls but they are not boats you want to cruise on. Weight is the enemy of any multihull and beer in bottles is heavy! |
Jeanneau 52.2 vs. Fountaine Pajot Belize
The original poster asked if a Jeaneau 52 is faster than a Belize 43. The
answer is most likely yes. We generally beat the multi's with a mono although we were a slower boat. Why, because the course required dead upwind and dead downwind sailing, that is a weak point for multi's. When racing point to point reaching races, the multi's won. No surprise. Now, if you compare Mari Cha against Orange I would give the race to Orange. Those boats are both all out race, not racer cruisers, or cruisers. "Jeff" wrote in message ... Bryan wrote: Not sure what you are asking Jeff? The PHRF ratings show that a Schock is a slower boat then an F28. But in our experience was we usually beat them around the course. Do they reach faster, yes. Do the go up and down faster, no. On average we beat them. I can't deny what 30 years of racing has shown me. So here you say that even though the F-cats are rated as substantially faster, you always beat them? But then you go on to "prove" your point by quoting the ratings. Hmmmm. Let's look at the numbers. A Fountaine Pajot 35 rates 138, a Fountaine Pajot Belize 43 rates 135, a Gemini 105 rates 177. The Jeanneau 52 is 80. The Jeanneau will most likely get to the anchorage before the Pajot. The numbers are the numbers. Well, I wasn't trying to claim that clunkers like the Belize will keep up with a 52 foot boat. In fact, all I said is that the Shock and F-cats provide no evidence at all for the question of cruising boats. But don't be too sure the Jeanneau will beat them to the anchorage. It carries about 1200 feet of sail, a handful for a cruising crew. And its rating probably includes a chute, which is unlikely to be used for short handed cruising. The cats, however, can be handled easily by 2 people without spilling a drink. I'd be curious where you found the cat phrf ratings. I seen 141 for the Gemini, and I don't think that included the chute. Big cruising cats are a far cry from the monster racing cats and tri's we see on magazine covers. Cruising cats are heavy with a very small sail plans. If you cruise a powered up cat or tri and are very cautious about payload it will be fast, no doubt. But most people like stuff when cruising, and stuff is heavy, and heavy is slow for a multi. So how do you think the Jeanneau would do against a more modern cat, such as the PDQ 44? Sorry, the nod goes to the Jeanneau. Very doubtful. Bryan "Jeff" wrote in message ... Bryan wrote: We raced our Schock 35 for many years and often there was a multihull fleet sailing the same course. F-28 Corsair Trimarans and others of the same ilk. We were very rarely beaten around the course by those multihulls.. So why does the Shock have a phrf of 72 while the f27 usually has around 50? I would tend to agree that in general a large monohull will be as fast if not faster than a cruising cat. Are you seriously saying that a comparison of a Shock 35 to a F28 says anything about cruising boats?? That said, the ultimate speed machines are multihulls but they are not boats you want to cruise on. Weight is the enemy of any multihull and beer in bottles is heavy! |
Jeanneau 52.2 vs. Fountaine Pajot Belize
Jeff you contradict yourself.
You wrote: Well, I wasn't trying to claim that clunkers like the Belize will keep up with a 52 foot boat. I wrote: Sorry, the nod goes to the Jeanneau. You wrote: Very doubtful. Huhh? "Jeff" wrote in message ... Bryan wrote: Not sure what you are asking Jeff? The PHRF ratings show that a Schock is a slower boat then an F28. But in our experience was we usually beat them around the course. Do they reach faster, yes. Do the go up and down faster, no. On average we beat them. I can't deny what 30 years of racing has shown me. So here you say that even though the F-cats are rated as substantially faster, you always beat them? But then you go on to "prove" your point by quoting the ratings. Hmmmm. Let's look at the numbers. A Fountaine Pajot 35 rates 138, a Fountaine Pajot Belize 43 rates 135, a Gemini 105 rates 177. The Jeanneau 52 is 80. The Jeanneau will most likely get to the anchorage before the Pajot. The numbers are the numbers. Well, I wasn't trying to claim that clunkers like the Belize will keep up with a 52 foot boat. In fact, all I said is that the Shock and F-cats provide no evidence at all for the question of cruising boats. But don't be too sure the Jeanneau will beat them to the anchorage. It carries about 1200 feet of sail, a handful for a cruising crew. And its rating probably includes a chute, which is unlikely to be used for short handed cruising. The cats, however, can be handled easily by 2 people without spilling a drink. I'd be curious where you found the cat phrf ratings. I seen 141 for the Gemini, and I don't think that included the chute. Big cruising cats are a far cry from the monster racing cats and tri's we see on magazine covers. Cruising cats are heavy with a very small sail plans. If you cruise a powered up cat or tri and are very cautious about payload it will be fast, no doubt. But most people like stuff when cruising, and stuff is heavy, and heavy is slow for a multi. So how do you think the Jeanneau would do against a more modern cat, such as the PDQ 44? Sorry, the nod goes to the Jeanneau. Very doubtful. Bryan "Jeff" wrote in message ... Bryan wrote: We raced our Schock 35 for many years and often there was a multihull fleet sailing the same course. F-28 Corsair Trimarans and others of the same ilk. We were very rarely beaten around the course by those multihulls.. So why does the Shock have a phrf of 72 while the f27 usually has around 50? I would tend to agree that in general a large monohull will be as fast if not faster than a cruising cat. Are you seriously saying that a comparison of a Shock 35 to a F28 says anything about cruising boats?? That said, the ultimate speed machines are multihulls but they are not boats you want to cruise on. Weight is the enemy of any multihull and beer in bottles is heavy! |
Jeanneau 52.2 vs. Fountaine Pajot Belize
I meant that the nod would not go to the Jeanneau if the comparison
was to a more modern cat, such as a PDQ 44. Bryan wrote: Jeff you contradict yourself. You wrote: Well, I wasn't trying to claim that clunkers like the Belize will keep up with a 52 foot boat. I wrote: Sorry, the nod goes to the Jeanneau. You wrote: Very doubtful. Huhh? "Jeff" wrote in message ... Bryan wrote: Not sure what you are asking Jeff? The PHRF ratings show that a Schock is a slower boat then an F28. But in our experience was we usually beat them around the course. Do they reach faster, yes. Do the go up and down faster, no. On average we beat them. I can't deny what 30 years of racing has shown me. So here you say that even though the F-cats are rated as substantially faster, you always beat them? But then you go on to "prove" your point by quoting the ratings. Hmmmm. Let's look at the numbers. A Fountaine Pajot 35 rates 138, a Fountaine Pajot Belize 43 rates 135, a Gemini 105 rates 177. The Jeanneau 52 is 80. The Jeanneau will most likely get to the anchorage before the Pajot. The numbers are the numbers. Well, I wasn't trying to claim that clunkers like the Belize will keep up with a 52 foot boat. In fact, all I said is that the Shock and F-cats provide no evidence at all for the question of cruising boats. But don't be too sure the Jeanneau will beat them to the anchorage. It carries about 1200 feet of sail, a handful for a cruising crew. And its rating probably includes a chute, which is unlikely to be used for short handed cruising. The cats, however, can be handled easily by 2 people without spilling a drink. I'd be curious where you found the cat phrf ratings. I seen 141 for the Gemini, and I don't think that included the chute. Big cruising cats are a far cry from the monster racing cats and tri's we see on magazine covers. Cruising cats are heavy with a very small sail plans. If you cruise a powered up cat or tri and are very cautious about payload it will be fast, no doubt. But most people like stuff when cruising, and stuff is heavy, and heavy is slow for a multi. So how do you think the Jeanneau would do against a more modern cat, such as the PDQ 44? Sorry, the nod goes to the Jeanneau. Very doubtful. Bryan "Jeff" wrote in message ... Bryan wrote: We raced our Schock 35 for many years and often there was a multihull fleet sailing the same course. F-28 Corsair Trimarans and others of the same ilk. We were very rarely beaten around the course by those multihulls.. So why does the Shock have a phrf of 72 while the f27 usually has around 50? I would tend to agree that in general a large monohull will be as fast if not faster than a cruising cat. Are you seriously saying that a comparison of a Shock 35 to a F28 says anything about cruising boats?? That said, the ultimate speed machines are multihulls but they are not boats you want to cruise on. Weight is the enemy of any multihull and beer in bottles is heavy! |
Jeanneau 52.2 vs. Fountaine Pajot Belize
On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 21:40:34 -0800, Evan Gatehouse
wrote: In general, similar size cruising cats will outsail cruising monohulls. ======================= The vast majority of cruising sailboats that I see, both cats and monos, are under power. Occasionally motorsailing, but more often than not, power only. Admittedly these are coastal cruisers not people on passage. A very high percentage of all cruising is coastal however. My point is that sailing performance doesn't necessarily mean too much. Cats are very difficult to get dock space for, and deep draft monos have many places they can not go. It's all a compromise, but to me the ideal cruiser of any type would have ample power, shoal draft, lots of tankage and plenty of room for storing gear. Trawlers anyone? |
Jeanneau 52.2 vs. Fountaine Pajot Belize
Bryan wrote:
The original poster asked if a Jeaneau 52 is faster than a Belize 43. The answer is most likely yes. I was addressing a point you brought up, not the OP's original comparison. We generally beat the multi's with a mono although we were a slower boat. Why, because the course required dead upwind and dead downwind sailing, that is a weak point for multi's. When racing point to point reaching races, the multi's won. No surprise. PHRF ratings are based on round the buoy racing. Assuming the ratings for the Shock 35 (72?) and the F-27 (25-50) are fair, then the F-27 is a faster boat in a round the buoy race. If you can consistently race at 25 to 50 points better than your boat's rating, you're a better sailor than I. (You probably are anyways, if you race a Shock 35!) The fact that cruising cats are even roughly the same as monohulls in phrf ratings implies that the upwind advantage of mono's is not that great. Since cruisers have been known to power when going upwind (yes, its true) its not clear phrf is particularly relevant at all to a cruising discussion. Now, if you compare Mari Cha against Orange I would give the race to Orange. Those boats are both all out race, not racer cruisers, or cruisers. "Jeff" wrote in message ... Bryan wrote: Not sure what you are asking Jeff? The PHRF ratings show that a Schock is a slower boat then an F28. But in our experience was we usually beat them around the course. Do they reach faster, yes. Do the go up and down faster, no. On average we beat them. I can't deny what 30 years of racing has shown me. So here you say that even though the F-cats are rated as substantially faster, you always beat them? But then you go on to "prove" your point by quoting the ratings. Hmmmm. Let's look at the numbers. A Fountaine Pajot 35 rates 138, a Fountaine Pajot Belize 43 rates 135, a Gemini 105 rates 177. The Jeanneau 52 is 80. The Jeanneau will most likely get to the anchorage before the Pajot. The numbers are the numbers. Well, I wasn't trying to claim that clunkers like the Belize will keep up with a 52 foot boat. In fact, all I said is that the Shock and F-cats provide no evidence at all for the question of cruising boats. But don't be too sure the Jeanneau will beat them to the anchorage. It carries about 1200 feet of sail, a handful for a cruising crew. And its rating probably includes a chute, which is unlikely to be used for short handed cruising. The cats, however, can be handled easily by 2 people without spilling a drink. I'd be curious where you found the cat phrf ratings. I seen 141 for the Gemini, and I don't think that included the chute. Big cruising cats are a far cry from the monster racing cats and tri's we see on magazine covers. Cruising cats are heavy with a very small sail plans. If you cruise a powered up cat or tri and are very cautious about payload it will be fast, no doubt. But most people like stuff when cruising, and stuff is heavy, and heavy is slow for a multi. So how do you think the Jeanneau would do against a more modern cat, such as the PDQ 44? Sorry, the nod goes to the Jeanneau. Very doubtful. Bryan "Jeff" wrote in message ... Bryan wrote: We raced our Schock 35 for many years and often there was a multihull fleet sailing the same course. F-28 Corsair Trimarans and others of the same ilk. We were very rarely beaten around the course by those multihulls.. So why does the Shock have a phrf of 72 while the f27 usually has around 50? I would tend to agree that in general a large monohull will be as fast if not faster than a cruising cat. Are you seriously saying that a comparison of a Shock 35 to a F28 says anything about cruising boats?? That said, the ultimate speed machines are multihulls but they are not boats you want to cruise on. Weight is the enemy of any multihull and beer in bottles is heavy! |
Jeanneau 52.2 vs. Fountaine Pajot Belize
Bryan wrote:
We generally beat the multi's with a mono although we were a slower boat. Why, because the course required dead upwind and dead downwind sailing, that is a weak point for multi's. When racing point to point reaching races, the multi's won. No surprise. Jeff wrote: PHRF ratings are based on round the buoy racing. Assuming the ratings for the Shock 35 (72?) and the F-27 (25-50) are fair, Are the ratings ever fair? One of the problems with issuing a single-number handicap for a light fast boat like a multi or sport boat is that their performance varies tremendously as conditions vary. For example, in the 1988 sneak-attack/mismatch catamaran America's Cup, the big monohull was demonstrably faster than the cat in light air. This appeared to be the case on all points of sail including reaches. I've raced a small sport boat against beach cats, and have some definite observations along the same lines. The funny thing is, that while there are some advantages for monos and some conditions wehre we couold dust them convincingly, a number of multihull seem to deny reality and insist that multis are faster just because they just are. .... then the F-27 is a faster boat in a round the buoy race. If you can consistently race at 25 to 50 points better than your boat's rating, you're a better sailor than I. (You probably are anyways, if you race a Shock 35!) The Antrim 27 rates about the same as the F-27 and they often beat F-27s, I'm told. The fact that cruising cats are even roughly the same as monohulls in phrf ratings implies that the upwind advantage of mono's is not that great. Agreed. Multihull design has progressed to where they can go upwind pretty well. And the mono probably has to use a spinnaker to keep up with or beat the cat (with no spinnaker) downwind. Since cruisers have been known to power when going upwind (yes, its true) its not clear phrf is particularly relevant at all to a cruising discussion. I disagree. It's releveant, since it indicates the sailing performance of the boats... under ideal conditions (remember PHRF assumes the boat is not loaded for cruising and tuned up for racing). However it's for sure not the be-all & end-all. We have a number of friends who cruise to the Bahamas every year from Beaufort, in a wide variety of boats. The speedboats (including a 44' fast cat and a J-44) don't seem to outperform the Island Packet by all that much. Usually their passage times are all within 24 hours of each other, often much less. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
Jeanneau 52.2 vs. Fountaine Pajot Belize
In article ,
"Bryan" wrote: Let's look at the numbers. snip, a Gemini 105 rates 177. What region, and are these PHRF or another formula? 177's slow for a modern 34' monohull. -- Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
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