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Training for sailboats/yachts
Hi,
I live in NYC, and am looking to do some sailing this coming season. I am looking at two options: a local sailing club, and a company that leases yachts. I am confused as to how much training is required, however. The sailing club (http://www.sailmanhattan.com/) requires a total of 22 hours of training, and they have J/24 sailboats. Even then, one is not allowed to sail their boats without a more experienced person being the skipper. The leasing company (http://www.pinnacleyachts.com/) requires 15 hours of instruction, and they have Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 37 yachts, and once you have learned, you are allowed to take them out on your own. What confuses me is, I would think the 37 footer would be harder than the J/24, yet less training is required, and less supervision afterwards is required. Is the sailing club being too strict, the leasing company being too lax, or am I missing something? Thanks for any input! |
Training for sailboats/yachts
I do not know your age and your time schedule.
One of the best place to start learning the ropes is the Power Squadron. They have excellent classroom courses on basic boating, sailing and navigation. Also some of the yacht clubs have on the water cruising courses. Other have racing courses. First Aid training or refresher course comes very handy. If your intent to charter a sailboat the leasing company is the place to go. If you intent to sail a boat with and without an engine in all conditions the training on the J/24 sailboats or its equilvalent is a good start. Each model of sailboat handles and reacts differently. Some people do charter sailboats every year and learning to handle the type of boat the leasing company is a good choice. When the engine stops, when you go aground or something goes wrong you call them on the VHF or the cell phone and help is on the way. When you own your boat the situation is different. "Commodore Joe Redcloud" wrote in message ... On 23 Dec 2005 09:09:19 -0800, wrote: Hi, I live in NYC, and am looking to do some sailing this coming season. I am looking at two options: a local sailing club, and a company that leases yachts. I am confused as to how much training is required, however. The sailing club (http://www.sailmanhattan.com/) requires a total of 22 hours of training, and they have J/24 sailboats. Even then, one is not allowed to sail their boats without a more experienced person being the skipper. The leasing company (http://www.pinnacleyachts.com/) requires 15 hours of instruction, and they have Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 37 yachts, and once you have learned, you are allowed to take them out on your own. What confuses me is, I would think the 37 footer would be harder than the J/24, yet less training is required, and less supervision afterwards is required. Is the sailing club being too strict, the leasing company being too lax, or am I missing something? I think you are missing a lot. They are two VERY different situations, and at very different prices. You need to look at each in depth and see what happens when you apply ALL of the fine print attached to each. Commodore Joe Redcloud |
Training for sailboats/yachts
Check the difference in cost. It may be that the leasing
company is charging more to cover more of the amortizing of the boat plus insurance. In either event, the sailing club is all but guaranteed to be a better environment for learning to sail well. The leasing company is definitely more expensive, but the boats are also a lot more appealing to me. I just want to make sure I am not being foolish by taking on a large boat with just a few days training. What I would really like to do is go on a multi day trip, which the sailing club does not make available. Thanks to everybody for the feedback! |
Training for sailboats/yachts
wrote in message oups.com... Hi, I live in NYC, and am looking to do some sailing this coming season. I am looking at two options: a local sailing club, and a company that leases yachts. I am confused as to how much training is required, however. The sailing club (http://www.sailmanhattan.com/) requires a total of 22 hours of training, and they have J/24 sailboats. Even then, one is not allowed to sail their boats without a more experienced person being the skipper. The leasing company (http://www.pinnacleyachts.com/) requires 15 hours of instruction, and they have Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 37 yachts, and once you have learned, you are allowed to take them out on your own. What confuses me is, I would think the 37 footer would be harder than the J/24, yet less training is required, and less supervision afterwards is required. Is the sailing club being too strict, the leasing company being too lax, or am I missing something? Thanks for any input! The J24 is a harder boat to sail than the jeaneau. Its a racing yacht designed for speed with little comfort. Along with that comes a very responsive boat that is not too forgiving. That's a good thing! You feel the breeze and wave action more on a smaller boat and get "the feel" faster. Usually ( I say usually -not always) there are only part time instructors at Clubs. On the other hand schools have pro instructors and ,at the risk of insulting some clubs, the school courses are more structured as they are answerable to the client. However it depends on what sort of sailing you are planning to do. If you want to spend your time chartering larger boats in romantic destinations you will be better with the Jenneau. But if you want to race or buy a smaller yacht you will be better off learning on the J24. Btw, those hours they have quoted would be the minimum. You will not be a good sailor at that point and will need to continue with training and plenty of hours on board to get more and more experience. I have been sailing nearly 30 years, have done ocean deliveries and raced very heavily. I have taught sailing professionally. But still learn something new nearly every time out. DP |
Training for sailboats/yachts
On 23 Dec 2005 11:46:01 -0800, wrote:
Check the difference in cost. It may be that the leasing company is charging more to cover more of the amortizing of the boat plus insurance. In either event, the sailing club is all but guaranteed to be a better environment for learning to sail well. The leasing company is definitely more expensive, but the boats are also a lot more appealing to me. I just want to make sure I am not being foolish by taking on a large boat with just a few days training. What I would really like to do is go on a multi day trip, which the sailing club does not make available. Thanks to everybody for the feedback! I see that someone else mentioned Power Squadron - They do classroom training in basic boating safety, rules of the road, and coastal navigation (but no on-the-water training). If you plan on cruising, you should take their course, as well as a practical sailing course. Around here, the charter companies/sailing schools offer "Cruise and Learn" courses - several students go for a 5 - 7 day cruise, with an instructor. This would be better than the basic 15 hour course you mentioned, as you would get to experience everything that happens during a cruise - including tying up at a foreign marina, anchoring, cooking, navigation.... -- Peter Bennett, VE7CEI peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca |
Training for sailboats/yachts
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Training for sailboats/yachts
On 23 Dec 2005 09:09:19 -0800, wrote:
Hi, I live in NYC, and am looking to do some sailing this coming season. I am looking at two options: a local sailing club, and a company that leases yachts. I am confused as to how much training is required, however. The sailing club (http://www.sailmanhattan.com/) requires a total of 22 hours of training, and they have J/24 sailboats. Even then, one is not allowed to sail their boats without a more experienced person being the skipper. The leasing company (http://www.pinnacleyachts.com/) requires 15 hours of instruction, and they have Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 37 yachts, and once you have learned, you are allowed to take them out on your own. What confuses me is, I would think the 37 footer would be harder than the J/24, yet less training is required, and less supervision afterwards is required. Is the sailing club being too strict, the leasing company being too lax, or am I missing something? Thanks for any input! I noticed that two posters suggested taking Power Squadron courses. While I admire the Power Squadron volunteers, they offer only classroom instruction. Studying the theory of docking, anchoring, sail trim, MOB, etc. is not akin to actually docking, anchoring, trimming sails and practicing MOB under power and sail. I could produce a more comprehensive list, but I think I made the point. You might check out the American Sailing Association schools in your your vicinity (http://www.american-sailing.com/lear...ng_school.html) Or US Sailing http://www.ussailing.org/community/wts/ The instructors in these organizations are not volunteers. They are either part-time or full-time paid instructors. They have an on-the-water component to their certification. I noticed that one of Pinnacle's bases is in Seattle. I can assure that 15 hours is NOT sufficient to sail in the Pacific Northwest. BTW - I am neither an ASA or US Sailing instructor. Jack _________________________________________ Jack Dale ISPA Yachtmaster Offshore Instructor CYA Advanced Cruising Instructor http://www.swiftsuresailing.com _________________________________________ |
Training for sailboats/yachts
On 23 Dec 2005 09:09:19 -0800, wrote:
I live in NYC, and am looking to do some sailing this coming season. I am looking at two options: a local sailing club, and a company that leases yachts. I am confused as to how much training is required, however. The sailing club (http://www.sailmanhattan.com/) requires a total of 22 hours of training, and they have J/24 sailboats. Even then, one is not allowed to sail their boats without a more experienced person being the skipper. The leasing company (http://www.pinnacleyachts.com/) requires 15 hours of instruction, and they have Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 37 yachts, and once you have learned, you are allowed to take them out on your own. ================================================== = In my humble opinion you are not qualified to take out a 37 footer on your own after 15 hours of instruction unless you already know quite a bit about boating in general, and navigation in particular. They may run a fine program, but believe me when I say that it takes more experience then that to go out safely. Manhattan Sailing school has been around for a long time and it sounds like they have a more common sense approach. NY Harbor is a fun place to sail and the J24s are good training boats. I'd go for it. You'll probably meet some interesting people as a bonus. |
Training for sailboats/yachts
In article .com,
wrote: Hi, I live in NYC, and am looking to do some sailing this coming season. I am looking at two options: a local sailing club, and a company that leases yachts. I am confused as to how much training is required, however. The sailing club (http://www.sailmanhattan.com/) requires a total of 22 hours of training, and they have J/24 sailboats. Even then, one is not allowed to sail their boats without a more experienced person being the skipper. The leasing company (http://www.pinnacleyachts.com/) requires 15 hours of instruction, and they have Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 37 yachts, and once you have learned, you are allowed to take them out on your own. What confuses me is, I would think the 37 footer would be harder than the J/24, yet less training is required, and less supervision afterwards is required. Is the sailing club being too strict, the leasing company being too lax, or am I missing something? Thanks for any input! David, all the responses are thoughtful and well informed. I will take a different approach. How much do you value your life and those you will take sailing with you? For most of us old salts/farts, at some point, equipment failure or unexpected weather (shrouds failing, unexpected fog, rogue gusts or waves, ferries in narrow channels, someone who didn't know or care about the rules of the road, mismarked charts, etc.) created situations that required correct action to avoid (or at least mitigate) danger. The more sailing instruction (courses, books, sailing with knowledgable folks), the more likely you will respond correctly yourself. A power squadron course saved my life. Advice from more experienced boats has too. Some ideas from books were pretty important to my well being. If you care about yourself and your sailing compatriots, at this point in your life, get as much "instruction" as you can. No amount is enough or too much. Be safe, courteous and have fun. harlan -- To respond, obviously drop the "nospan"? |
Training for sailboats/yachts
Wayne.B wrote:
In my humble opinion you are not qualified to take out a 37 footer on your own after 15 hours of instruction unless you already know quite a bit about boating in general, and navigation in particular. They may run a fine program, but believe me when I say that it takes more experience then that to go out safely. I agree that 15 hours of instruction, alone, is not enough to make you ready to take out a 37 foot boat safely, but I think that if you combine those 15 hours of instruction with about 40 to 80 hours of study with the right books it could be adequate. My wife and I bought a 36 footer and cruised from San Diego to Panama City and back after about 24 hours of instruction, a few day sails around San Diego Bay, and copious amounts of reading about cruising, navigation, anchoring, etc. I honestly don't think we were substantially safer boat operators after 7,000 miles and one year of living on board than we were when we first left San Diego. The keys to safety at sea are knowing to stay put when bad weather is forecast, keeping a good lookout, knowing how to read a chart and plot a GPS position on it (and knowing not to trust GPS positions plotted on charts of Mexican waters), basic understanding of the boat's systems, knowing to reef when things get wild, and knowing the basic principles of anchoring. None of these things take a lot of practice or experience and they can all be learned from the right books. There is only thing that I think you really need to have a lot of practice at to do safely with a sailboat, and that is maneauver into a slip. After a year of cruising and living at anchor my wife and I still sucked at it because we avoided marinas and never got any practice. Andy |
Training for sailboats/yachts
Andy wrote:
Wayne.B wrote: In my humble opinion you are not qualified to take out a 37 footer on your own after 15 hours of instruction unless you already know quite a bit about boating in general, and navigation in particular. They may run a fine program, but believe me when I say that it takes more experience then that to go out safely. I agree that 15 hours of instruction, alone, is not enough to make you ready to take out a 37 foot boat safely, but I think that if you combine those 15 hours of instruction with about 40 to 80 hours of study with the right books it could be adequate. My wife and I bought a 36 footer and cruised from San Diego to Panama City and back after about 24 hours of instruction, a few day sails around San Diego Bay, and copious amounts of reading about cruising, navigation, anchoring, etc. I honestly don't think we were substantially safer boat operators after 7,000 miles and one year of living on board than we were when we first left San Diego. The keys to safety at sea are knowing to stay put when bad weather is forecast, keeping a good lookout, knowing how to read a chart and plot a GPS position on it (and knowing not to trust GPS positions plotted on charts of Mexican waters), basic understanding of the boat's systems, knowing to reef when things get wild, and knowing the basic principles of anchoring. None of these things take a lot of practice or experience and they can all be learned from the right books. There is only thing that I think you really need to have a lot of practice at to do safely with a sailboat, and that is maneauver into a slip. After a year of cruising and living at anchor my wife and I still sucked at it because we avoided marinas and never got any practice. Andy You are very lucky. Gaz |
Training for sailboats/yachts
On 25 Dec 2005 20:39:47 -0800, "Andy"
wrote: I agree that 15 hours of instruction, alone, is not enough to make you ready to take out a 37 foot boat safely, but I think that if you combine those 15 hours of instruction with about 40 to 80 hours of study with the right books it could be adequate. Andy In my experience as an instructor, the major factor in coming a confident competent sailor is helm time. Jack _________________________________________ Jack Dale ISPA Yachtmaster Offshore Instructor CYA Advanced Cruising Instructor http://www.swiftsuresailing.com _________________________________________ |
Training for sailboats/yachts
wrote:
: I live in NYC, and am looking to do some sailing this coming season. I : am looking at two options: a local sailing club, and a company that : leases yachts. I am confused as to how much training is required, : however. : : The sailing club (http://www.sailmanhattan.com/) requires a total of : 22 hours of training, and they have J/24 sailboats. Even then, one is : not allowed to sail their boats without a more experienced person being : the skipper. : : The leasing company (http://www.pinnacleyachts.com/) requires 15 hours : of instruction, and they have Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 37 yachts, and once : you have learned, you are allowed to take them out on your own. : : What confuses me is, I would think the 37 footer would be harder than : the J/24, yet less training is required, and less supervision : afterwards is required. : : Is the sailing club being too strict, the leasing company being too : lax, or am I missing something? I live in Jersey City and have taken courses at all three clubs on the New York Harbor. In addition to your http://www.sailmanhattan.com/ check out http://www.sailtruenorth.com/ and http://www.aroundtheharbor.com/ Note that aroundtheharbor is the nyc chapter of http://www.offshore-sailing.com/ Truenorth and offshore are both on the Jersey side. Truenorth is right at the Pavonia/Newport PATH station, very easily accessible. Offshore is PATH to Pavonia, then Light Rail to Liberty State Park, then a 10-minute walk to Liberty Landing Gate D, where its boats are. All three are approximately the same price for classes and club memberships. Truenorth also has J/24's; offshore has Colgate 26's (roughly the same thing, but easier and quicker to set up). Offshore has the easiest boat use policy -- there's no "skipper" designation, and any two club members can reserve and take out a boat. In fact, I've found myself in some uncomfortable situations on offshore boats, assuming people knew what they were doing when they didn't. Both other clubs have more rigid policies. Nevertheless, all in all, I personally like offshore the best. But call/visit all three yourself. As others said, you might not really want to bareboat charter a 37-foot boat immediately. Maybe visit the local clubs and find some (more experienced) people to split your first few charters with. By the way, if your email is also your website, then (a)congratulations, and (b)inappropriate sailing wardrobe :). Get some sailing gloves and canvas deck shoes (or more expensive ones if you like) at West Marine, 12 West 37th Street. -- John Forkosh ( mailto: where j=john and f=forkosh ) |
Training for sailboats/yachts
Gary wrote:
Andy wrote: My wife and I bought a 36 footer and cruised from San Diego to Panama City and back after about 24 hours of instruction, a few day sails around San Diego Bay, and copious amounts of reading about cruising, navigation, anchoring, etc. You are very lucky. Gaz Why do you say we were very lucky? What exactly does one need a lot of experience with before going coastal cruising that can't be learned from books? The actual sailing part of cruising is pretty simple and straightfoward. While it could easily take a lifetime to master the art of sailing for maximum speed, for purposes of cruising you just need to know how to roughly trim the sails. Navigation, especially with a GPS, is pretty straightforward and can be learned from books. Anchoring is an important skill, but it can really be learned from books, and getting an oversized anchor can provide a good safety margin. The other skill needed for cruising, which is repair and maintenance of the boat and its systems, is not really taught in sailing courses anyways, and in any event, those can be picked up from books too. Andy |
Training for sailboats/yachts
"Andy" wrote in message oups.com... Gary wrote: Andy wrote: My wife and I bought a 36 footer and cruised from San Diego to Panama City and back after about 24 hours of instruction, a few day sails around San Diego Bay, and copious amounts of reading about cruising, navigation, anchoring, etc. You are very lucky. Gaz Why do you say we were very lucky? What exactly does one need a lot of experience with before going coastal cruising that can't be learned from books? The actual sailing part of cruising is pretty simple and straightfoward. While it could easily take a lifetime to master the art of sailing for maximum speed, for purposes of cruising you just need to know how to roughly trim the sails. Navigation, especially with a GPS, is pretty straightforward and can be learned from books. Anchoring is an important skill, but it can really be learned from books, and getting an oversized anchor can provide a good safety margin. The other skill needed for cruising, which is repair and maintenance of the boat and its systems, is not really taught in sailing courses anyways, and in any event, those can be picked up from books too. Andy OMG you are kidding right? That information is dangerous. Seamanship can not be just learned from books. I must be taught under the instruction of an experienced sailor or qualified instructor. A bigger anchor is "not" the solution to anchoring problems. Rode, Warp, Chain, Anchor type are many of the considerations that must be taken into account when anchoring. Not to mention swing, tidal increases/decreases, other boats. Anchor watches. Transits. Doing it on the water with an instructor the right way to do it. Not grabbing a book and hoping for the best. You can not learn a proper MOB recovery from a book. It has to be done on the water. The information learned while with an instructor is invaluable. Sunlight, wave action, leeway, headsails, drift, short-handedness are all things that can not be experienced in a book and can only be experienced in a proper drill. Radio use cannot be learned from books. Proper courses must be used to ensure the person knows the proper procedures and fully understands their obligations when on VHF or MF/HF. Picking up moorings and sailing on and off jetties can be read about in books too. But it needs to be done under the supervision of a good instructor for the safety of the boat at least. The book doesn't give you a feel for the boat. A feel for the wind and a feel for the wave action. Reefing, sail changes, knots, groundings. That is four more subjects off the top of my head. There are so many others to learn the RIGHT way too. Books are fine, but as a tool that assists with on water learning. The blasé comment you made about learning from books is ridiculous and dangerous though. DP |
Training for sailboats/yachts
A bigger anchor is "not" the solution to anchoring problems. Rode, Warp,
Chain, Anchor type are many of the considerations that must be taken into account when anchoring. Not to mention swing, tidal increases/decreases, other boats. Anchor watches. Transits. Doing it on the water with an instructor the right way to do it. Not grabbing a book and hoping for the best. All of the topics you mention about anchoring are more than adequately covered in any number of books. Just saying "doing it in the water is the right way to do it" doesn't make it true. I practiced anchoring exactly once with an instructor, read some books, and then successfully anchored every night for a year without once dragging. You can not learn a proper MOB recovery from a book. It has to be done on the water. The information learned while with an instructor is invaluable. Sunlight, wave action, leeway, headsails, drift, short-handedness are all things that can not be experienced in a book and can only be experienced in a proper drill. I read some books about MOB recovery and then my wife and I practiced a few times. I can't see how an instructor's guidance would have added anything significant. By the way, we actually did recover a MOB without incident (though he fell off a freighter, not our boat). Radio use cannot be learned from books. Proper courses must be used to ensure the person knows the proper procedures and fully understands their obligations when on VHF or MF/HF. I find this assertion strange. The books I read explained VHF procedures more than adequately. Picking up moorings and sailing on and off jetties can be read about in books too. But it needs to be done under the supervision of a good instructor for the safety of the boat at least. The book doesn't give you a feel for the boat. A feel for the wind and a feel for the wave action. As I mentioned in my original post, pulling a boat up to a dock or slip is the one thing I think you really should practice a lot. Picking up a mooring is pretty self-explanatory. Reefing, sail changes, knots, groundings. That is four more subjects off the top of my head. There are so many others to learn the RIGHT way too. Reefing is pretty easy to figure out from books and a little practice on your own boat. Same with sail changes. Knots are easy to learn from books. Groundings? Are you saying that an instructor is going to ground a boat to teach you how to get it off? If not, then all an instructor can do to teach you about groundings is tell you what to try, which a book can do just as well, if not better since you can get the book out when you run aground but you may have trouble remembering exactly what the instructor said. Books are fine, but as a tool that assists with on water learning. The blasé comment you made about learning from books is ridiculous and dangerous though. Of course one should practice what one learns from books on the water, but to me instruction from a live instructor is not really necessary for anything but basic helmsmanship, basic sail trim, and maneuvering into docks and slips. Andy |
Training for sailboats/yachts
On 27 Dec 2005 15:12:16 -0800, "Andy"
wrote: Why do you say we were very lucky? What exactly does one need a lot of experience with before going coastal cruising that can't be learned from books? Docking under power and sail MOB (upwind and downwind) and under power Reefing Gennaker and spinnaker handling and trim Anchoring with two anchors Anchoring stern-to shore / dock Practical application of Colregs Getting meaningful weather forecasts Being able to read clouds, wind directions and barometers to do your own forecasting Passage planning The actual sailing part of cruising is pretty simple and straightfoward. While it could easily take a lifetime to master the art of sailing for maximum speed, for purposes of cruising you just need to know how to roughly trim the sails. Eventually you will want to learn sail trim to go faster as well as save wear and tear on your sails. Navigation, especially with a GPS, is pretty straightforward and can be learned from books. You might want to read this article. (http://www.itweek.co.uk/itweek/news/...s-plan-outages) The traditional navigation skills might be needed. I would suggest that navigation is not that straightforward. I teach both traditional navigation and elctronic navigation (but not celestial). Our courses run 8 to 10 weeks in length. Anchoring is an important skill, but it can really be learned from books, and getting an oversized anchor can provide a good safety margin. I have seen a lot of very poor anchoring strategies. During my 25 years of sailing, I have not dragged anchor once even when others around me are doing so. The other skill needed for cruising, which is repair and maintenance of the boat and its systems, is not really taught in sailing courses anyways, and in any event, those can be picked up from books too. I am not sure what courses you have taken, but we teach daily, weekly and seasonal maintenance of boat systems, sails and rigging . Jack _________________________________________ Jack Dale ISPA Yachtmaster Offshore Instructor CYA Advanced Cruising Instructor http://www.swiftsuresailing.com _________________________________________ |
Training for sailboats/yachts
"Andy" wrote in message oups.com... A bigger anchor is "not" the solution to anchoring problems. Rode, Warp, Chain, Anchor type are many of the considerations that must be taken into account when anchoring. Not to mention swing, tidal increases/decreases, other boats. Anchor watches. Transits. Doing it on the water with an instructor the right way to do it. Not grabbing a book and hoping for the best. All of the topics you mention about anchoring are more than adequately covered in any number of books. Just saying "doing it in the water is the right way to do it" doesn't make it true. I practiced anchoring exactly once with an instructor, read some books, and then successfully anchored every night for a year without once dragging. You can not learn a proper MOB recovery from a book. It has to be done on the water. The information learned while with an instructor is invaluable. Sunlight, wave action, leeway, headsails, drift, short-handedness are all things that can not be experienced in a book and can only be experienced in a proper drill. I read some books about MOB recovery and then my wife and I practiced a few times. I can't see how an instructor's guidance would have added anything significant. By the way, we actually did recover a MOB without incident (though he fell off a freighter, not our boat). Radio use cannot be learned from books. Proper courses must be used to ensure the person knows the proper procedures and fully understands their obligations when on VHF or MF/HF. I find this assertion strange. The books I read explained VHF procedures more than adequately. Picking up moorings and sailing on and off jetties can be read about in books too. But it needs to be done under the supervision of a good instructor for the safety of the boat at least. The book doesn't give you a feel for the boat. A feel for the wind and a feel for the wave action. As I mentioned in my original post, pulling a boat up to a dock or slip is the one thing I think you really should practice a lot. Picking up a mooring is pretty self-explanatory. Reefing, sail changes, knots, groundings. That is four more subjects off the top of my head. There are so many others to learn the RIGHT way too. Reefing is pretty easy to figure out from books and a little practice on your own boat. Same with sail changes. Knots are easy to learn from books. Groundings? Are you saying that an instructor is going to ground a boat to teach you how to get it off? If not, then all an instructor can do to teach you about groundings is tell you what to try, which a book can do just as well, if not better since you can get the book out when you run aground but you may have trouble remembering exactly what the instructor said. Books are fine, but as a tool that assists with on water learning. The blasé comment you made about learning from books is ridiculous and dangerous though. Of course one should practice what one learns from books on the water, but to me instruction from a live instructor is not really necessary for anything but basic helmsmanship, basic sail trim, and maneuvering into docks and slips. Andy Your ignorance is frightening! You have already proven that with your comment about anchoring- a bigger anchor is not the answer. MOB: what mistakes did you make? Do you know if you made any? What techniques did you not use? Who was there to tell you? Radio: What mistakes have you made on the Radio? Ever done a mayday Relay transmission? Ever Practiced it? I doubt it -an instructor will make sure you do. Groundings: a good instructor will take the student through the motions of backing sails, heeling the boat by several means etc. How many times have you sailed backwards? Have you ever laid a kedging anchor? What techniques did you use? What mistakes did you make? Where was the instructor to prevent you making them? Sail trim: What about mast bend? What mistakes have you made? Where was the instructor? The list is endless. I have over 30 years on water experience and have taught professionally. I have two titles to mine name and have thousands of seamiles under my belt. It not the ocean, I worry about. It people like you that scare me. DP |
Training for sailboats/yachts
"d parker" wrote in message ... I have over 30 years on water experience and have taught professionally. I have two titles to mine name and have thousands of seamiles under my belt. DP And so do millions of other people. So what? Eisboch |
Training for sailboats/yachts
Jack Dale wrote:
On 27 Dec 2005 15:12:16 -0800, "Andy" wrote: Why do you say we were very lucky? What exactly does one need a lot of experience with before going coastal cruising that can't be learned from books? Docking under power and sail I mentioned earlier in this thread that docking is one of the things I think is best learned from an instructor. MOB (upwind and downwind) and under power The basic principles of MOB are easily learned from a book and then you can practice on your own by throwing a cushion over and getting it back over and over. A live instructor is not necessary. Reefing Easy to learn from a book and practice on your own. I think my instructor showed us once, the seller of our boat showed us once at the dock how he had things rigged up, we read up on it, and then we practiced a few times. Gennaker and spinnaker handling and trim You don't need a gennaker or a spinnaker to cruise. I figured out how to use the cruising spinnaker that came with my boat from a 5 minute explanation from the seller and some reading. Anchoring with two anchors Pretty straightforward to learn from a book. Anchoring stern-to shore / dock Ditto. Practical application of Colregs Easy to learn from a book. Getting meaningful weather forecasts I learned this from reading books and info on the internet. Being able to read clouds, wind directions and barometers to do your own forecasting This is covered well in books. Passage planning Covered well in books. The actual sailing part of cruising is pretty simple and straightfoward. While it could easily take a lifetime to master the art of sailing for maximum speed, for purposes of cruising you just need to know how to roughly trim the sails. Eventually you will want to learn sail trim to go faster as well as save wear and tear on your sails. I learned the finer points of sail trim from books and experimenting. No particular reason to pay an instructor other than to teach you the basic principles. Navigation, especially with a GPS, is pretty straightforward and can be learned from books. I would suggest that navigation is not that straightforward. I teach both traditional navigation and elctronic navigation (but not celestial). Our courses run 8 to 10 weeks in length. I don't see any advantage to learning navigation from a teacher as compared to learning from a book. I think an instructor is very useful for learning basic helmsmanship, sail trim, rules of the road, and docking, say 15 to 24 hours worth of time on the water. After that it is possible for an intelligent and motivated person to teach themselves from books. Andy |
Training for sailboats/yachts
d parker wrote:
Your ignorance is frightening! You have already proven that with your comment about anchoring- a bigger anchor is not the answer. If my ignorance of anchoring is frightening, why did I never drag once in a year of living at anchor? If someone can spend almost 300 days at anchor in all kinds of conditions without dragging once, wouldn't you say they probably had an adequate knowledge of how to anchor? MOB: what mistakes did you make? Do you know if you made any? What techniques did you not use? Who was there to tell you? Well, the Ukranian sailor I pulled out of the ocean off of Panama 6 hours after he fell off his freighter seem pretty pleased with my technique, so I would say that any mistakes I made were probably cosmetic. In any event, my wife and I practiced MOB from time to time, and we could tell when we did a good job of it, and we could tell when we made a mess of it. Its not that hard to distinguish a poor MOB from a good one. Radio: What mistakes have you made on the Radio? Ever done a mayday Relay transmission? Ever Practiced it? I doubt it -an instructor will make sure you do. I was cruising in an area where the local standard was to whistle into the radio to get another boats attention, and then babble in spanish at a high rate of speed. We had everything from cruisers to cruise ships to container ships to shrimpers to various navies, all with differing levels of proficiency, different languages, and different radio customs. You listened and learned as you went and you did whatever worked. Groundings: a good instructor will take the student through the motions of backing sails, heeling the boat by several means etc. How many times have you sailed backwards? Have you ever laid a kedging anchor? What techniques did you use? What mistakes did you make? Where was the instructor to prevent you making them? Books explain techniques for getting out of a grounding perfectly adequately. I learned sailing backwards on my own; I taught myself to anchor under sail and weigh anchor under sail and my wife and I routinely anchored and raised anchor under sail. I also taught myself to pick up a mooring under sail. Never needed to use a kedging anchor, but if I did I knew what to do. Sail trim: What about mast bend? What mistakes have you made? Where was the instructor? All the finer points of sail trim, including mast bend, are covered well in books. I have made plenty of sail trim mistakes. So what? I spent probably 1000 to 1500 hours under way over the course of a year, and I had all the time in the world to fiddle with sail trim and see how it affected my speed. If I had learned everything about sail trim from an instructor before I left I would have deprived myself of many hours of entertainment on long passages. The list is endless. I have over 30 years on water experience and have taught professionally. I have two titles to mine name and have thousands of seamiles under my belt. It not the ocean, I worry about. It people like you that scare me. People with 7000 sea miles of experience scare you? I guess you are easily frightened. I am all for knowing the proper techniques for various situations, but for a cruiser what is the real advantage of an instructor over a well written book once you have learned basics of sail trim, docking, and helmsmanship? Andy |
Training for sailboats/yachts
Andy wrote:
snip : All the finer points of sail trim, including mast bend, are covered : well in books. : Andy Could you please list some of the books you've read that you feel contributed to your sailing knowledge. Not so much sail trim in particular, but engine maintenance and mechanical systems, anchoring, docking, navigation, etc, etc. The ASA and US Sailing books I've read for courses (Basic Keelboat, Basic Cruising, and Bareboat) I've taken seem way too light-weight for complete self-learning. The USPS Advanced Sailing course book seems much better, and sail trim seems very well covered by Tom Whidden's The Art and Science of Sails. But I haven't found (what seemed to me like) good books for many of the other topics you've mentioned in your preceding posts, and would be very interested to know what you found the most helpful. Thanks, -- John Forkosh ( mailto: where j=john and f=forkosh ) |
Training for sailboats/yachts
"Andy" wrote in message oups.com... People with 7000 sea miles of experience scare you? I guess you are easily frightened. I am all for knowing the proper techniques for various situations, but for a cruiser what is the real advantage of an instructor over a well written book once you have learned basics of sail trim, docking, and helmsmanship? Andy Yes you scare me, if that's your attitude towards learning without a person on board to prevent mistakes being made. If you have made it without injuring someone or breaking boat too much I congratulate you. However, books only tell you what to do. They rarely tell you what not to do. DP |
Training for sailboats/yachts
"Andy" wrote in message ups.com... Jack Dale wrote: On 27 Dec 2005 15:12:16 -0800, "Andy" wrote: Why do you say we were very lucky? What exactly does one need a lot of experience with before going coastal cruising that can't be learned from books? Docking under power and sail I mentioned earlier in this thread that docking is one of the things I think is best learned from an instructor. snipped, but you listed other elements easier learned from instructors Andy, I support your views completely. Thanks for airing the pragmatic approach to learning to sail. Dangerous thing to do in this forum! One factor others in this thread have ignored is that some people learn best from books, then exploring for themselves, while others learn best by seeing and doing under supervision. The latter group are served by some who will criticise you - but let's remember they have a vested interest in increasing the demand for their market. Another factor ignored is that a lot depends on where a sailor first gained experience. It's very easy to learn (for instance) in the Mediterranean in the summer in a sheltered area such as the Inland Ionian Sea (no tides, light winds, no weather, no swell, only one dangerous under water rock to hit) After 24 hours of instruction you can send Mr and Mrs average out to skipper their own 30ft yacht - under daily supervision. It's quite another thing to learn sailing around the Channel Islands in the English Channel (5kt tide streams, 9m tidal range, thousands of hidden rocks requiring tight pilotage in sometimes poor visibility, and a good swell to boot). Instruction with these complicating factors is a lot slower, and exposure to variations a lot more important. And these two groups are pretty intolerant of each other's style of learning, though both are valid. A third factor ignored is that *everyone* extends their experience from their first 'instruction' (book or on water). What matters is how they extend their experience; responsibly (with some fear, and the knowledge that there's a lot to learn?) or irresponsibly (full of confidence that they've learnt most of it?). On extending experience: about half my (yachtmaster) examination candidates had attended full courses, and about half presented themselves as 'experienced'. A few of the total didn't meet acceptable standards. 'Course' candidate failures were mainly those who'd be difficult to teach to drive a car - lacking the ability to puzzle out a new situation under stress. More sea time was the cure. 'Experienced' candidate failures stemmed mainly from not reading through the syllabus being examined; gross omissions - such as believing that racing rules were good enough knowledge to pass for colregs! Their solution was to humble themselves by reading the syllabus and boning up on the gaps in their knowledge. JimB |
Training for sailboats/yachts
John F wrote:
Andy wrote: snip : All the finer points of sail trim, including mast bend, are covered : well in books. : Andy Could you please list some of the books you've read that you feel contributed to your sailing knowledge. Not so much sail trim in particular, but engine maintenance and mechanical systems, anchoring, docking, navigation, etc, etc. The ASA and US Sailing books I've read for courses (Basic Keelboat, Basic Cruising, and Bareboat) I've taken seem way too light-weight for complete self-learning. The USPS Advanced Sailing course book seems much better, and sail trim seems very well covered by Tom Whidden's The Art and Science of Sails. But I haven't found (what seemed to me like) good books for many of the other topics you've mentioned in your preceding posts, and would be very interested to know what you found the most helpful. Thanks, -- John Forkosh ( mailto: where j=john and f=forkosh ) Hi John: I agree with you about the ASA books; they are pretty lightweight and I wouldn't rely on them alone. I used the ASA books as basically an introduction and overview of the topics. Chapman's Piloting, while pretty thick, I also just used as an introductory text. When I was actually out cruising I don't think I ever opened the ASA books, and I only checked Chapman's as a last resort. Here are the books that I considered to be the most useful to me in learning to cruise. I am not saying these are the best books available; Some of them I were on board when we bought the boat and some of them I picked up at yard sales, etc. and I ended up finding them useful. 1. Nigel Calder's Cruising Handbook. This is what I turned to first, since it adequately covers a surprisingly large number of diverse topics. I suspect that if people in this newsgroup threw random topics at me we would find that 85% of them are covered in sufficient detail for cruising (not racing) purposes. 2. Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual; Nigel Calder. This book resolved at least 90% of my mechanical and electrical issues. 3. Marine Diesel Engines; Calder. 4. Fundamentals of Sailing, Cruising, and Racing; Stephen Colgate. 5. Sail Like a Champion; Dennis Conner. 6. The 12 Volt Bible; Living on 12 Volts with Ample Power 7. Surviving the Storm; Dashew. 8. Pardy books, i.e. The Cost Conscious Cruiser, the Capable Cruiser, etc. 9. Sensible Cruising: The Thoreau Approach; Casey and Hackler. 9. A bunch of books in the peril-at-sea genre. Its good to read about other people's mistakes. 10. Sailboat Hull and Deck Repair; Don Casey. Andy |
Training for sailboats/yachts
d parker wrote:
Yes you scare me, if that's your attitude towards learning without a person on board to prevent mistakes being made. If you have made it without injuring someone or breaking boat too much I congratulate you. However, books only tell you what to do. They rarely tell you what not to do. Why would I need a person on board to tell me if I was making a mistake? In my experience real mistakes lead to real consequences that are pretty obvious. If the only way to detect a mistake is by having an instructor on board then I would suggest that maybe its not a very important mistake. Please give me an example of a mistake that: (1) presents a significant safety risk, (2) would not be obvious to someone who has carefully read the books I listed in my other post, (3) would escape detection without a qualfied instructor, i.e. the mistake doesn't cause any consequences that would alert an ordinary person to the fact that something is going wrong. I would be very interested to see just one example of such a mistake. Here is an example of a very serious mistake that I doubt is covered in any course, but which I was aware of from reading books. There is a certain type of anchor swivel which, if connected directly to the anchor can fail if there is a strong pull on the rode from perpendicular to the anchor. You can see the swivel I am talking about he http://www.reddenmarine.com/site/new...fm?id=SD181206 To use this swivel safely you have to put a shackle on the anchor, attach the swivel to that, and then attach the chain to the other end of the swivel. I learned this from one of the books I read, and it was a good thing since the previous owner of my boat had the anchor rigged with one of these swivels mounted directly on the anchor. When I was in Costa Rica I met a woman who lost an anchor in a very rolly and rocky anchorage because she had one of these swivels incorrectly mounted. Lucky for her the swivel didn't break until it came time to raise anchor and she brought up a chain with only a snapped swivel on the end. My point with this example is that I doubt something this obscure would be covered in any standard course, but someone who read a lot of books would be aware of this issue. Andy |
Training for sailboats/yachts
Andy wrote:
Gary wrote: Andy wrote: My wife and I bought a 36 footer and cruised from San Diego to Panama City and back after about 24 hours of instruction, a few day sails around San Diego Bay, and copious amounts of reading about cruising, navigation, anchoring, etc. You are very lucky. Gaz Why do you say we were very lucky? What exactly does one need a lot of experience with before going coastal cruising that can't be learned from books? Lots experience counts. A lot depends on where you cruise and the boat. Of course in very mild areas with a small basic boat there is less to learn. The actual sailing part of cruising is pretty simple and straightfoward. While it could easily take a lifetime to master the art of sailing for maximum speed, for purposes of cruising you just need to know how to roughly trim the sails. Sailing is easy until the weather turns against you then some experience is a big asset. Navigation, especially with a GPS, is pretty straightforward and can be learned from books. Of course but once the GAPS fails then experience counts. Whip out the sky wrench and a book. Pull out HO 249 and a pencil. Lets find land. Anchoring is an important skill, but it can really be learned from books, and getting an oversized anchor can provide a good safety margin.] Tell that to the hundreds who have experienced dragging or weighing in adverse conditions. Or anchored where it is deep, rocky and windy. The other skill needed for cruising, which is repair and maintenance of the boat and its systems, is not really taught in sailing courses anyways, and in any event, those can be picked up from books too. It is taught in the advanced courses. Andy Of course everything can be learned from a book but nothing counts like experience. Sometimes looking it up in the book is too slow. Gaz |
Training for sailboats/yachts
In article
, "d parker" wrote: Yes you scare me, if that's your attitude towards learning without a person on board to prevent mistakes being made. If you have made it without injuring someone or breaking boat too much I congratulate you. However, books only tell you what to do. They rarely tell you what not to do. DP Truth be told, as with any practical knowledge, we only really learn from experience. Some of us can get the clues from books; some need personalized instruction; others need to be shown, but it's the *doing* that does the trick. Having an instructor at your elbow is not the same as being totally responsible and having to remember everything at once. Sometimes, the student (such as my wife) only gains the confidence in their skills when the instructor (me) isn't there. [Every once in a while, I'll "fall asleep" on a long leg. We always get "there".] Strangest story: Had a friend go out for his first sailboat trip with us and I gave him the basics of sail trim and eyeball navigation that afternoon. He was enthusiastic, so he handled the boat most of the day. Next we heard, he'd bought an old sloop and successfully gotten it down to Florida. He learned quite a bit along the way, including becoming a pretty fair sailor. Biggest lesson, though, was to NOT move unless he felt ready for the conditions. He got "stretched" a couple of times and did the stupid things we all do, but I don't think was ever in actual danger. [Told him I thought *starting* the trip was a stupid idea, and he agreed, but he had FUN.] We have had crew onboard that had done all the courses and had all the certifications. Would rather have dinghy sailors, and usually soon feel comfortable going below with them at the helm. Even complete neophytes sometimes were better than all of the the "accredited" "sailors" I've met. But that's not a condemnation of courses, or an absolute approval of any particular method. Everyone learns differently. Some will never learn; others merely need a suggestion. -- Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Training for sailboats/yachts
Andy wrote:
: John F wrote: : Andy wrote: : snip : : All the finer points of sail trim, including mast bend, are covered : : well in books. : : Andy : : Could you please list some of the books you've read that : you feel contributed to your sailing knowledge. Not so : much sail trim in particular, but engine maintenance and : mechanical systems, anchoring, docking, navigation, etc, etc. : The ASA and US Sailing books I've read for courses : (Basic Keelboat, Basic Cruising, and Bareboat) I've taken : seem way too light-weight for complete self-learning. : The USPS Advanced Sailing course book seems much better, : and sail trim seems very well covered by Tom Whidden's : The Art and Science of Sails. But I haven't found (what : seemed to me like) good books for many of the other topics : you've mentioned in your preceding posts, and would be : very interested to know what you found the most helpful. : Thanks, : Hi John: : I agree with you about the ASA books; they are pretty lightweight and I : wouldn't rely on them alone. I used the ASA books as basically an : introduction and overview of the topics. Chapman's Piloting, while : pretty thick, I also just used as an introductory text. When I was : actually out cruising I don't think I ever opened the ASA books, and I : only checked Chapman's as a last resort. : Here are the books that I considered to be the most useful to me in : learning to cruise. I am not saying these are the best books : available; Some of them I were on board when we bought the boat and : some of them I picked up at yard sales, etc. and I ended up finding : them useful. : 1. Nigel Calder's Cruising Handbook. This is what I turned to first, : since it adequately covers a surprisingly large number of diverse : topics. I suspect that if people in this newsgroup threw random topics : at me we would find that 85% of them are covered in sufficient detail : for cruising (not racing) purposes. : 2. Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual; Nigel Calder. This : book resolved at least 90% of my mechanical and electrical issues. : 3. Marine Diesel Engines; Calder. : 4. Fundamentals of Sailing, Cruising, and Racing; Stephen Colgate. : 5. Sail Like a Champion; Dennis Conner. : 6. The 12 Volt Bible; Living on 12 Volts with Ample Power : 7. Surviving the Storm; Dashew. : 8. Pardy books, i.e. The Cost Conscious Cruiser, the Capable Cruiser, : etc. : 9. Sensible Cruising: The Thoreau Approach; Casey and Hackler. :10. A bunch of books in the peril-at-sea genre. Its good to read about : other people's mistakes. :11. Sailboat Hull and Deck Repair; Don Casey. : Andy Hi Andy, Thanks very much, indeed. Looks like a terrific reading list, and I'll definitely be checking them all out and buying at least several. P.S. to original poster, David, if you're still reading this... I didn't originally realize pinnacle was one of those fractional ownership deals. If that's what interests you, also check out www.sailtime.com , which has boats both at Chelsea Piers and also at Liberty Landing. (Their Chelsea boat used to be at Pier 40 alongside pinnacle's, but Chelsea's much better protected, making it more comfortable for evening parties:) You can also try bareboat chartering a boat for a day. Several places, e.g., Brewer Yacht Haven Marina (www.byy.com), along LI Sound do this kind of business (roughly $500/day for a 40 foot Beneteau). But in these cases, I believe they'll want to check out your skills a little more carefully than pinnacle seems to be doing. -- John Forkosh ( mailto: where j=john and f=forkosh ) |
Training for sailboats/yachts
Andy wrote:
Jack Dale wrote: On 27 Dec 2005 15:12:16 -0800, "Andy" wrote: Why do you say we were very lucky? What exactly does one need a lot of experience with before going coastal cruising that can't be learned from books? Docking under power and sail I mentioned earlier in this thread that docking is one of the things I think is best learned from an instructor. MOB (upwind and downwind) and under power The basic principles of MOB are easily learned from a book and then you can practice on your own by throwing a cushion over and getting it back over and over. A live instructor is not necessary. Reefing Easy to learn from a book and practice on your own. I think my instructor showed us once, the seller of our boat showed us once at the dock how he had things rigged up, we read up on it, and then we practiced a few times. Gennaker and spinnaker handling and trim You don't need a gennaker or a spinnaker to cruise. I figured out how to use the cruising spinnaker that came with my boat from a 5 minute explanation from the seller and some reading. Anchoring with two anchors Pretty straightforward to learn from a book. Anchoring stern-to shore / dock Ditto. Practical application of Colregs Easy to learn from a book. Getting meaningful weather forecasts I learned this from reading books and info on the internet. Being able to read clouds, wind directions and barometers to do your own forecasting This is covered well in books. Passage planning Covered well in books. The actual sailing part of cruising is pretty simple and straightfoward. While it could easily take a lifetime to master the art of sailing for maximum speed, for purposes of cruising you just need to know how to roughly trim the sails. Eventually you will want to learn sail trim to go faster as well as save wear and tear on your sails. I learned the finer points of sail trim from books and experimenting. No particular reason to pay an instructor other than to teach you the basic principles. Navigation, especially with a GPS, is pretty straightforward and can be learned from books. I would suggest that navigation is not that straightforward. I teach both traditional navigation and elctronic navigation (but not celestial). Our courses run 8 to 10 weeks in length. I don't see any advantage to learning navigation from a teacher as compared to learning from a book. I think an instructor is very useful for learning basic helmsmanship, sail trim, rules of the road, and docking, say 15 to 24 hours worth of time on the water. After that it is possible for an intelligent and motivated person to teach themselves from books. Andy Funny, most books advise a course. You didn't learn that. Gaz |
Training for sailboats/yachts
Andy wrote:
Here is an example of a very serious mistake that I doubt is covered in any course, but which I was aware of from reading books. There is a certain type of anchor swivel which, if connected directly to the anchor can fail if there is a strong pull on the rode from perpendicular to the anchor. You can see the swivel I am talking about he http://www.reddenmarine.com/site/new...fm?id=SD181206 To use this swivel safely you have to put a shackle on the anchor, attach the swivel to that, and then attach the chain to the other end of the swivel. I learned this from one of the books I read, and it was a good thing since the previous owner of my boat had the anchor rigged with one of these swivels mounted directly on the anchor. When I was in Costa Rica I met a woman who lost an anchor in a very rolly and rocky anchorage because she had one of these swivels incorrectly mounted. Lucky for her the swivel didn't break until it came time to raise anchor and she brought up a chain with only a snapped swivel on the end. My point with this example is that I doubt something this obscure would be covered in any standard course, but someone who read a lot of books would be aware of this issue. Andy That sort of problem is most certainly covered and that example used. I think that learning from books is certainly one way to learn anything. However, time has proven that most skills need an element of practice and that instructors are valuable help. No doubt you have learned a great deal and have safely conducted yourself from port to port with the knowledge gained. It may have been easier to learn, more fun, and more complete if combined with an instructor and other interested folks. Gaz |
Training for sailboats/yachts
"Gary" wrote in message news:u6ltf.102873$2k.49337@pd7tw1no... snip I don't see any advantage to learning navigation from a teacher as compared to learning from a book. I think an instructor is very useful for learning basic helmsmanship, sail trim, rules of the road, and docking, say 15 to 24 hours worth of time on the water. After that it is possible for an intelligent and motivated person to teach themselves from books. Andy Funny, most books advise a course. You didn't learn that. Gaz That's funny! DP |
Training for sailboats/yachts
In article ,
Commodore Joe Redcloud wrote: The major differences between trying to learn from books and having an instructor, are that with an instructor, you will learn much faster, Some people learn "faster" from books, particularly since that can be done at home -- off the water. In my case, the transition from reading to doing has always often been short. and when you don't understand something after reading everything about it in the book, an instructor can use additional information, and even demonstration to explain it to you in a way that you can understand it. Full agreement. But if the instructor has to give the full background that some can pull from a book, that's wasted lesson time. Reading, talking and doing should be mixed in a balance tailored to the individual students. The original poster and I can do fairly well with a stronger bias towards study than some. -- Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
Training for sailboats/yachts
One thing to consider is whether the particular sailing school you
choose is generally known and accredited, and whether their certificates of class completion are generally accepted by other schools, charter companies, etc. For example, I think that the classes from American Sailing School, and Annapolis Sailing Schools, etc., include training in a number of prescribed subjects, with OTW (on the water) and classroom work on each, followed by OTW and written exams. Thus, if you pass the tests, you (and others) have some assurance that you learned the basics of sailing that you were supposed to learn. Also, they offer a progressive series of courses, beginning with an introductory sailing course (basics of sailing, points of sail, man overboard, rules of the road, boat nomenclature, etc.) followed by more advanced courses, progressing to a course providing a certificate stating that you are qualified to charter larger boats, etc. - The point is that you might want to start with a training school that will provide graduation letters or certificates that will be accepted for the more advanced courses that you may want to take later on. - (Sort of like taking the appropriate prerequisites in college for the more advanced second and third-year courses.) Otherwise, you might have to repeat the training of a local, non-recogized "school." Of course, if you just want to take an introductory weekend course at a nominal cost, you won't loose much and will be on your way. Jim wrote: Hi, I live in NYC, and am looking to do some sailing this coming season. I am looking at two options: a local sailing club, and a company that leases yachts. I am confused as to how much training is required, however. The sailing club (http://www.sailmanhattan.com/) requires a total of 22 hours of training, and they have J/24 sailboats. Even then, one is not allowed to sail their boats without a more experienced person being the skipper. The leasing company (http://www.pinnacleyachts.com/) requires 15 hours of instruction, and they have Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 37 yachts, and once you have learned, you are allowed to take them out on your own. What confuses me is, I would think the 37 footer would be harder than the J/24, yet less training is required, and less supervision afterwards is required. Is the sailing club being too strict, the leasing company being too lax, or am I missing something? Thanks for any input! |
Training for sailboats/yachts
Any method that give you the most "TIME ON THE WATER" will be the
fastest route towards 'mastery' of sailing. There is NO SUBSTITUE to "DOING IT", not books, not schools, not marina residents nor newsgroup denizens. Nothing builds sailing skills faster than simply doing it. As regards the 'size' of the boat the smallest sailing dinghy will teach 'you' faster because of its relative instability, the immediate feedback from the boat when something is 'wrong'/right, etc. A larger boat is erroneously easier to sail because EVERYTHING that happens is much s-l-o-w-e-r to happen and many of the actions/reaction are 'dampened' by the large mass of the boat. Get copies of "Chapmans", Annapolis School of Seamanship", etc. read them over and over then get out on the water in anything you can afford, borrow, etc. Want to learn sailing quickly: buy a cheap re-saleable daysailing dinghy, beat the hell out of it (and yourself) while you are learning and looking for the 'next' (larger) boat, sell the dinghy for a profit and move up, etc. until you arrive at your 'plateau' then think about a 'school', etc. Make a plan and follow it. What ever you do dont assume that a BIG boat is the place to start as a big boat will take all the skills you learned in small tippy dinghies .... plus some. It will take YEARS to learn how to sail on a big boat ... only a season or two on a 'little' boat - and those skills can be used on a big boat (not always vice versa). Take one 'bite' at a time. Look at or compare becoming a pilot in general aviation (small) aircraft: no one starts flying in a 747 jumbo jet as their 'entry' to that sport. They usuallly start in the smaller 'sport' planes and then move up. How rapid the 'move up' depends on how much *time* you spend on the water. If you want to accelerate your 'training' beside the above, go down to the local 'racing fleet' on a Wednesday night and see if someone needs extra 'crew' ... they usually do. Tell them your sailing experience and see if you can fit their needs .... the (free) training on a racecourse as crew will be astronomical. When the race is over/won, then start to ask your questions of the crew ... good sailors will share their knowledge openly and freely. When you get home open one of the zillions of 'sailing books' and study, etc., ask questioins next time out, etc. Just carefully pick a race boat/skipper that isnt an arrogant loudmouthed dictator, etc. "Time on the water" is the BEST teacher. If you are married, etc. get your wife, etc. interested .... and turn the boat over to HER. If she 'likes' sailing .... you wont have any choice (nor future disappointments)!!! Hope this helps, see ya on the water |
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