A question of concern
 

wrote in message

he said he was
getting too old. He has now forgotten that.

.. He has
insufficient water storage and is relying on desalination
equipment that has a history of failure. His main engine is
unreliable and difficult to start although it hasn't many hours
since a full rebuild. His rigging is old and underrated for bad
weather. He spent several hundred thousand dollars buying a
yacht that no one could sell for nearly nine years, because of
these problems. He is relying on being able to fix these problems
himself, not hire professionals to do it.

My sister tells me that the last time she saw him, just before he
bought the yacht, he was "losing it" starting to act senile,
forgetting things that he had just discussed and remembering
things from the past that were mixed up, confusing events from
various decades, combining them into one.

Wouldn't you be worried if it was your father?


Faith

I'll give my opinion for what it is worth.

I'm a physician in Geriatric and Internal Medicine in Australia.

From what describe, if accurate, your father likely has Alzheimer's disease.
While many would question giving a diagnosis over usenet, it's not a big
call as Alzheimer's is the commonest cause of dementia by a large margin (
about 3/4 of all cases at that age) and affecting about 25% of 85 year olds.
The lack of judgement and forgetfulness you describe is typical. Many are
under the mistaken impression that these are a natural concomitant of aging
but that is not the case- Three out of four 85 year olds are cognitively
normal.

While I know nothing of your medicolegal systems (I'm assuming you're in the
US), here, the appropriate step would be a medical assessment to make or
refute a diagnosis and if he is suffering from Alzheimer's of significant
degree, and thus not have decision making capacity, then take the suitable
steps to protect him and others from harm.

Of course if he does not have a disease like Alzheimer's affecting his
cognition and is simply a foolish/stubborn/cantankerous old man then he and
his friend can accept any risk they choose. Playing the odds, I think the
likelihood is a dementing illness in the early stages.

Unfortunately we see quite commonly the effects of Alzheimer's disease too
late to intervene. Many a family business has been ruined by bad decision
making from dementia before it is picked up, leaving the spouse destitute.

I do go sailing as well - hopefully the off topic post is excused.

Peter HK

A question of concern
 

"Peter HK" wrote in message
...
I'll give my opinion for what it is worth.

I'm a physician in Geriatric and Internal Medicine in Australia.

From what describe, if accurate, your father likely has Alzheimer's
disease. While many would question giving a diagnosis over usenet, it's
not a big call as Alzheimer's is the commonest cause of dementia by a
large margin ( about 3/4 of all cases at that age) and affecting about 25%
of 85 year olds. The lack of judgement and forgetfulness you describe is
typical. Many are under the mistaken impression that these are a natural
concomitant of aging but that is not the case- Three out of four 85 year
olds are cognitively normal.

While I know nothing of your medicolegal systems (I'm assuming you're in
the US), here, the appropriate step would be a medical assessment to make
or refute a diagnosis and if he is suffering from Alzheimer's of
significant degree, and thus not have decision making capacity, then take
the suitable steps to protect him and others from harm.

Of course if he does not have a disease like Alzheimer's affecting his
cognition and is simply a foolish/stubborn/cantankerous old man then he
and his friend can accept any risk they choose. Playing the odds, I think
the likelihood is a dementing illness in the early stages.

Unfortunately we see quite commonly the effects of Alzheimer's disease too
late to intervene. Many a family business has been ruined by bad decision
making from dementia before it is picked up, leaving the spouse
destitute.

I do go sailing as well - hopefully the off topic post is excused.

Peter HK
IF you're a doctor, and IF he's got Alzheimer's, how is sailing going to
make the rest of his life any worse? If his girlfriend is 60+ she's old
enough to make her own mind up. Is it the father's happiness the daughter's
worried about, or her inheritance going on a boat and a girlfriend.
Chances are, that at that age he'll be so tired in a week or less that he'll
tie up somewhere and live happily ever after in port. If he dies at sea, so
what? It's how he's chosen to go, and at 85 what else has he to look forward
to/

A question of concern
 

Duncan Heenan wrote:

If his girlfriend is 60+ she's old enough to make her own mind up.

Not if she lacks the awareness of the potential danger to herself.

Is it the father's happiness the daughter's worried about, or her
inheritance going on a boat and a girlfriend.

There's no need for such insulting remarks. The last thing to leap
out at me from this story is the daughter's concern for her "rightful"
inheritance. Hell, if her dad is serious about this girlfriend of
his, he's probably willed her most of his worldly possessions anyway.

It's not good enough merely to say that it's his life and he can do
what he likes with it. Even if he were to sail alone, without this
lady, he is still a potential danger to others if he can't handle
the craft well enough. Add the inexperienced and weak crew, and
you have an additional potential victim, without a reduction in
the danger the boat could pose to others.

On the other hand, I do agree with the sentiments that he should
be left to follow his dream and enjoy happiness in his twilight
years.

I suggest that the best solution would be to see if the lady can be
persuaded to become a competent and useful crew memeber capable of
handling the boat on her own if necessary. Get lessons and experience.

This would at least reduce the danger to which she and others (and
he) would be exposed. I think that could work quite well. The
only remaining thing is the concern about the allegedly poor
condition of the boat. That would need to be looked at and sorted
out.

A question of concern
 

"Duncan Heenan" wrote in message
...

IF you're a doctor,

Haven't been struck off yet


and IF he's got Alzheimer's, how is sailing going to make the rest of his
life any worse? If his girlfriend is 60+ she's old enough to make her own
mind up. Is it the father's happiness the daughter's worried about, or her
inheritance going on a boat and a girlfriend.
Chances are, that at that age he'll be so tired in a week or less that
he'll tie up somewhere and live happily ever after in port. If he dies at
sea, so what? It's how he's chosen to go, and at 85 what else has he to
look forward to/

The decision if and/or when to intervene when someone has an illness that
will impair their judgement and rational decision making cpacity is
difficult. Most of us live in nanny states that want to protect people from
themselves.

I personally would not be keen to intervene if it were only he at risk, but
there is the issue of his friend and possibly others. What if he forgot to
keep appropriate attention and hit another vessel, or failed to anchor
properly and dragged, damaging other vessels or their crew?

As an analogy, a few years ago there was report of an elderly demented man
who entered a motorway up an off ramp and was driving in the opposite
direction to the traffic. A fatal accident occurred, killing a couple in
another car, while the demented man was uninjured.

Would you stop him driving? I would.

Is a boat so different?

Peter HK

A question of concern
 

Duncan Heenan wrote:

If he dies at sea, so what? It's how he's chosen to go, and at 85
what else has he to look forward to/

That's precisely what I thought for the first three paragraphs of
Faith's post. To be honest, it's something I've even thought of for
myself at that kind of age - somewhat morbid for a 24 year old!

That changed as soon as I read the next line. He's not just risking
himself, he's risking someone else. That's OK, just, if the someone else
knows exactly what they're letting themselves in for, but it sounds like
this lady does not. She has never sailed before, let alone undertaken
the kind of trip he's planning. She presumably loves and trusts him, and
believes him when he says he can sail her around the world. She may know
that what she's doing is dangerous; I very much doubt she knows *how*
dangerous.

I think any attempt to solve this problem has to revolve around her,
giving her a better understanding of what she's getting into. Sailing
lessons, as JG suggested, seem like a good idea, but for her, not him.
He'd almost certainly be insulted, and might well refuse to take part;
arranging for her to have a little experience before going just seems
like common sense to everybody involved - if Faith's paying, it seems
like a nice farewell present.

Work-up or shakedown trips before the final departure are another
sensible precaution, and another opportunity for the lady - and maybe
the father - to realise what's involved, and her for to either dissuade
him or change her mind about going.

At the end of the day, though, this kind of thing is all you can do. You
do not have the moral right to prevent either of them doing what they
want with their lives. The lady's lack of understanding is the only
problem here - if you fix that and she still wants to go, tough. Wish
them luck.

Pete

A question of concern
 

"Peter HK" wrote in message
...

"Duncan Heenan" wrote in message
...

IF you're a doctor,

Haven't been struck off yet

Neither have I.

and IF he's got Alzheimer's, how is sailing going to make the rest of his
life any worse? If his girlfriend is 60+ she's old enough to make her own
mind up. Is it the father's happiness the daughter's worried about, or her
inheritance going on a boat and a girlfriend.
Chances are, that at that age he'll be so tired in a week or less that
he'll tie up somewhere and live happily ever after in port. If he dies at
sea, so what? It's how he's chosen to go, and at 85 what else has he to
look forward to/

The decision if and/or when to intervene when someone has an illness that
will impair their judgement and rational decision making cpacity is
difficult. Most of us live in nanny states that want to protect people
from themselves.

I personally would not be keen to intervene if it were only he at risk,
but there is the issue of his friend and possibly others. What if he
forgot to keep appropriate attention and hit another vessel, or failed to
anchor properly and dragged, damaging other vessels or their crew?

As an analogy, a few years ago there was report of an elderly demented man
who entered a motorway up an off ramp and was driving in the opposite
direction to the traffic. A fatal accident occurred, killing a couple in
another car, while the demented man was uninjured.

Would you stop him driving? I would.

Is a boat so different?

Peter HK

Society's moral judgements are reflected in the law. There is no law against
unqualified people sailing boats, there is one regarding people who drive
cars, who have to be licensed and medically fit. Your example is a poor one
because the demented man driving the car was doing so illegally. Society
has, by not requiring sailors to take tests, ruled that anyone can go
sailing on their own decision alone. Relying on a doctor to decide on what
you should or should not do is rather like letting the motor mechanic decide
where you should drive your car to. I can see no reason to give any more
credence to a doctor's moral views than anyone else's, lest of all the
'patient', especially when the patient doesn't even feel ill.

A question of concern
 

"Commodore Joe Redcloud" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 15:35:49 -0000, "Duncan Heenan"

wrote:
snip .
IF you're a doctor, and IF he's got Alzheimer's, how is sailing going to
make the rest of his life any worse? If his girlfriend is 60+ she's old
enough to make her own mind up.

Not if she has no idea what is truly involved and required to do the
proposed
sort of sailing. She may be basing her decisions on her feelings for the
old
man, and her trust that he knows what he is talking about, since he has a
history of sailing experience. She has no apparent knowledge of the
realities of
sailing. She doesn't know enough to even know what questions to ask.


Commodore Joe Redcloud

People should still be allowed to make their own mistakes.

A question of concern
 

"Commodore Joe Redcloud" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 18:52:34 -0000, "Duncan Heenan"

wrote:


"Commodore Joe Redcloud" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 15:35:49 -0000, "Duncan Heenan"

wrote:
snip .
IF you're a doctor, and IF he's got Alzheimer's, how is sailing going to
make the rest of his life any worse? If his girlfriend is 60+ she's old
enough to make her own mind up.

Not if she has no idea what is truly involved and required to do the
proposed
sort of sailing. She may be basing her decisions on her feelings for the
old
man, and her trust that he knows what he is talking about, since he has
a
history of sailing experience. She has no apparent knowledge of the
realities of
sailing. She doesn't know enough to even know what questions to ask.


Commodore Joe Redcloud

People should still be allowed to make their own mistakes.


I didn't know them, but I forgive your parents!


Commodore Joe Redcloud

Ah.......... you have the power to forgive too!

A question of concern
 

"Duncan Heenan" wrote in message
...

"Peter HK" wrote in message
...
I'll give my opinion for what it is worth.

I'm a physician in Geriatric and Internal Medicine in Australia.

From what describe, if accurate, your father likely has Alzheimer's
disease. While many would question giving a diagnosis over usenet, it's
not a big call as Alzheimer's is the commonest cause of dementia by a
large margin ( about 3/4 of all cases at that age) and affecting about
25% of 85 year olds. The lack of judgement and forgetfulness you describe
is typical. Many are under the mistaken impression that these are a
natural concomitant of aging but that is not the case- Three out of four
85 year olds are cognitively normal.

While I know nothing of your medicolegal systems (I'm assuming you're in
the US), here, the appropriate step would be a medical assessment to make
or refute a diagnosis and if he is suffering from Alzheimer's of
significant degree, and thus not have decision making capacity, then take
the suitable steps to protect him and others from harm.

Of course if he does not have a disease like Alzheimer's affecting his
cognition and is simply a foolish/stubborn/cantankerous old man then he
and his friend can accept any risk they choose. Playing the odds, I think
the likelihood is a dementing illness in the early stages.

Unfortunately we see quite commonly the effects of Alzheimer's disease
too late to intervene. Many a family business has been ruined by bad
decision making from dementia before it is picked up, leaving the spouse
destitute.

I do go sailing as well - hopefully the off topic post is excused.

Peter HK
IF you're a doctor, and IF he's got Alzheimer's, how is sailing going to
make the rest of his life any worse? If his girlfriend is 60+ she's old
enough to make her own mind up. Is it the father's happiness the
daughter's worried about, or her inheritance going on a boat and a
girlfriend.
Chances are, that at that age he'll be so tired in a week or less that
he'll tie up somewhere and live happily ever after in port. If he dies at
sea, so what? It's how he's chosen to go, and at 85 what else has he to
look forward to/

I guess Duncan hasn't had to care for someone with Alzheimers or senile
dimentia and of course we don't know if this guy does have it.

I used to have a registered care home and had to deal with it on
a daily basis and I am now having to watch my brother deteriorate with it.
Cases obviously vary somewhat and so does the speed of deterioration but
there are some common factors. In earlier stages there are bouts of
fear and panic, particularly when going somewhere and then realising they
don't know where they are, where they were going or, how to get home again.
Increasingly irrational behaviour, mood swings and some become very
aggressive. Not too far down the line, inability to find the
toilet/bedroom/kitchen etc in their own house, (this confusion dramatically
increases in unfamiliar surroundings) Need assistance with dressing, toilet
etc. Short term memory is the first to deteriorate and before long they
don't know when they've eaten maybe only 5 minutes afterwards. They forget
who close relatives and friends are and rational converation becomes
impossible. Further down the slippery slope may come the inability to even
sit down without assistance, incontinence, etc.

Personally, I would rather sail with a drunk - at least they're sober some
of the time!

Graham.

A question of concern
 

"Duncan Heenan" wrote in message
...


Society's moral judgements are reflected in the law. There is no law
against unqualified people sailing boats, there is one regarding people
who drive cars, who have to be licensed and medically fit. Your example is
a poor one

Here there are requirements for boat licences that do require
competency/medical fitness exactly like car licences. Thus the analogy is
apt.

because the demented man driving the car was doing so illegally. Society
has, by not requiring sailors to take tests, ruled that anyone can go
sailing on their own decision alone.

See above.

Relying on a doctor to decide on what
you should or should not do is rather like letting the motor mechanic
decide where you should drive your car to. I can see no reason to give any
more credence to a doctor's moral views than anyone else's, lest of all
the 'patient', especially when the patient doesn't even feel ill.


I wasn't discussing "moral" views rather medicolegal issues. There are Laws-
which you seem to accept as a basis for society according to your first
sentence- dealing with mental capacity, substituted decision making etc. I
have to work within that framework.

Peter HK

A question of concern
 

In message , Duncan Heenan
writes

"Commodore Joe Redcloud" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 15:35:49 -0000, "Duncan Heenan"

wrote:
snip .
IF you're a doctor, and IF he's got Alzheimer's, how is sailing going to
make the rest of his life any worse? If his girlfriend is 60+ she's old
enough to make her own mind up.

Not if she has no idea what is truly involved and required to do the
proposed
sort of sailing. She may be basing her decisions on her feelings for the
old
man, and her trust that he knows what he is talking about, since he has a
history of sailing experience. She has no apparent knowledge of the
realities of
sailing. She doesn't know enough to even know what questions to ask.


Commodore Joe Redcloud

People should still be allowed to make their own mistakes.

Not at the expense of others.
--
Marshall Rice

(Put the bin out to email me)

A question of concern
 

In message , Duncan Heenan
writes

"Peter HK" wrote in message
...
I'll give my opinion for what it is worth.

I'm a physician in Geriatric and Internal Medicine in Australia.

From what describe, if accurate, your father likely has Alzheimer's
disease. While many would question giving a diagnosis over usenet, it's
not a big call as Alzheimer's is the commonest cause of dementia by a
large margin ( about 3/4 of all cases at that age) and affecting about 25%
of 85 year olds. The lack of judgement and forgetfulness you describe is
typical. Many are under the mistaken impression that these are a natural
concomitant of aging but that is not the case- Three out of four 85 year
olds are cognitively normal.

While I know nothing of your medicolegal systems (I'm assuming you're in
the US), here, the appropriate step would be a medical assessment to make
or refute a diagnosis and if he is suffering from Alzheimer's of
significant degree, and thus not have decision making capacity, then take
the suitable steps to protect him and others from harm.

Of course if he does not have a disease like Alzheimer's affecting his
cognition and is simply a foolish/stubborn/cantankerous old man then he
and his friend can accept any risk they choose. Playing the odds, I think
the likelihood is a dementing illness in the early stages.

Unfortunately we see quite commonly the effects of Alzheimer's disease too
late to intervene. Many a family business has been ruined by bad decision
making from dementia before it is picked up, leaving the spouse
destitute.

I do go sailing as well - hopefully the off topic post is excused.

Peter HK
IF you're a doctor, and IF he's got Alzheimer's, how is sailing going to
make the rest of his life any worse?

It's certainly likely to shorten it and make its end rather more
stressful and/or uncomfortable.

--
Marshall Rice

(Put the bin out to email me)

A question of concern
 

In message , Peter HK
writes

"Duncan Heenan" wrote in message
...

IF you're a doctor,

Haven't been struck off yet


and IF he's got Alzheimer's, how is sailing going to make the rest of his
life any worse? If his girlfriend is 60+ she's old enough to make her own
mind up. Is it the father's happiness the daughter's worried about, or her
inheritance going on a boat and a girlfriend.
Chances are, that at that age he'll be so tired in a week or less that
he'll tie up somewhere and live happily ever after in port. If he dies at
sea, so what? It's how he's chosen to go, and at 85 what else has he to
look forward to/

The decision if and/or when to intervene when someone has an illness that
will impair their judgement and rational decision making cpacity is
difficult. Most of us live in nanny states that want to protect people from
themselves.

I personally would not be keen to intervene if it were only he at risk, but
there is the issue of his friend and possibly others. What if he forgot to
keep appropriate attention and hit another vessel, or failed to anchor
properly and dragged, damaging other vessels or their crew?

As an analogy, a few years ago there was report of an elderly demented man
who entered a motorway up an off ramp and was driving in the opposite
direction to the traffic. A fatal accident occurred, killing a couple in
another car, while the demented man was uninjured.

Would you stop him driving? I would.

Is a boat so different?

Indeed it is.

You can do vastly more damage with a boat.
--
Marshall Rice

(Put the bin out to email me)

A question of concern
 

Marshall Rice wrote:
In message , Peter HK writes

Would you stop him driving? I would.

Is a boat so different?

Indeed it is.

You can do vastly more damage with a boat.

?

How? A hunk of fibreglass travelling at six knots through largely empty
space (marinas excepted) vs a ton of steel at 70mph no more than a few
feet from objects either stationary or moving at speed in the opposite
direction.

Pete

A question of concern
 

"Graham Frankland" gfranklandattiscalidotcodotuk wrote in message
...
"Duncan Heenan" wrote in message
...

"Peter HK" wrote in message
...
I'll give my opinion for what it is worth.

I'm a physician in Geriatric and Internal Medicine in Australia.

From what describe, if accurate, your father likely has Alzheimer's
disease. While many would question giving a diagnosis over usenet, it's
not a big call as Alzheimer's is the commonest cause of dementia by a
large margin ( about 3/4 of all cases at that age) and affecting about
25% of 85 year olds. The lack of judgement and forgetfulness you
describe
is typical. Many are under the mistaken impression that these are a
natural concomitant of aging but that is not the case- Three out of four
85 year olds are cognitively normal.

While I know nothing of your medicolegal systems (I'm assuming you're in
the US), here, the appropriate step would be a medical assessment to
make
or refute a diagnosis and if he is suffering from Alzheimer's of
significant degree, and thus not have decision making capacity, then
take
the suitable steps to protect him and others from harm.

Of course if he does not have a disease like Alzheimer's affecting his
cognition and is simply a foolish/stubborn/cantankerous old man then he
and his friend can accept any risk they choose. Playing the odds, I
think
the likelihood is a dementing illness in the early stages.

Unfortunately we see quite commonly the effects of Alzheimer's disease
too late to intervene. Many a family business has been ruined by bad
decision making from dementia before it is picked up, leaving the
spouse
destitute.

I do go sailing as well - hopefully the off topic post is excused.

Peter HK
IF you're a doctor, and IF he's got Alzheimer's, how is sailing going to
make the rest of his life any worse? If his girlfriend is 60+ she's old
enough to make her own mind up. Is it the father's happiness the
daughter's worried about, or her inheritance going on a boat and a
girlfriend.
Chances are, that at that age he'll be so tired in a week or less that
he'll tie up somewhere and live happily ever after in port. If he dies at
sea, so what? It's how he's chosen to go, and at 85 what else has he to
look forward to/

I guess Duncan hasn't had to care for someone with Alzheimers or senile
dimentia and of course we don't know if this guy does have it.

I used to have a registered care home and had to deal with it on
a daily basis and I am now having to watch my brother deteriorate with it.
Cases obviously vary somewhat and so does the speed of deterioration but
there are some common factors. In earlier stages there are bouts of
fear and panic, particularly when going somewhere and then realising they
don't know where they are, where they were going or, how to get home
again.
Increasingly irrational behaviour, mood swings and some become very
aggressive. Not too far down the line, inability to find the
toilet/bedroom/kitchen etc in their own house, (this confusion
dramatically increases in unfamiliar surroundings) Need assistance with
dressing, toilet etc. Short term memory is the first to deteriorate and
before long they don't know when they've eaten maybe only 5 minutes
afterwards. They forget who close relatives and friends are and rational
converation becomes impossible. Further down the slippery slope may come
the inability to even sit down without assistance, incontinence, etc.

Personally, I would rather sail with a drunk - at least they're sober some
of the time!

Graham.

As it happens I do have experience of watching and caring for someone slide
down the slope of dementia. My conclusion is that if it starts to happen to
me I'd rather drown happy before I get too far down that slope. I wouldn't
want to sail with someone in that condition, but I also wouldn't want
someone to make that decision for me.

A question of concern
 

"Peter HK" wrote in message
...

"Duncan Heenan" wrote in message
...


Society's moral judgements are reflected in the law. There is no law
against unqualified people sailing boats, there is one regarding people
who drive cars, who have to be licensed and medically fit. Your example
is a poor one

Here there are requirements for boat licences that do require
competency/medical fitness exactly like car licences. Thus the analogy is
apt.

In that case the question is self answering - if he can get a licence he can
go, if he can't he can't.

because the demented man driving the car was doing so illegally. Society
has, by not requiring sailors to take tests, ruled that anyone can go
sailing on their own decision alone.

See above.

Relying on a doctor to decide on what
you should or should not do is rather like letting the motor mechanic
decide where you should drive your car to. I can see no reason to give
any more credence to a doctor's moral views than anyone else's, lest of
all the 'patient', especially when the patient doesn't even feel ill.


I wasn't discussing "moral" views rather medicolegal issues. There are
Laws- which you seem to accept as a basis for society according to your
first sentence- dealing with mental capacity, substituted decision making
etc. I have to work within that framework.

Peter HK

And not detaining people against their will is part of the legal framework.

A question of concern
 

"Marshall Rice" wrote in message
...
In message , Duncan Heenan
writes

"Commodore Joe Redcloud" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 15:35:49 -0000, "Duncan Heenan"

wrote:
snip .
IF you're a doctor, and IF he's got Alzheimer's, how is sailing going to
make the rest of his life any worse? If his girlfriend is 60+ she's old
enough to make her own mind up.

Not if she has no idea what is truly involved and required to do the
proposed
sort of sailing. She may be basing her decisions on her feelings for the
old
man, and her trust that he knows what he is talking about, since he has
a
history of sailing experience. She has no apparent knowledge of the
realities of
sailing. She doesn't know enough to even know what questions to ask.


Commodore Joe Redcloud

People should still be allowed to make their own mistakes.

Not at the expense of others.
--

Lawyers do it all the time.

A question of concern
 

"Marshall Rice" wrote in message
...
In message , Duncan Heenan
writes

"Peter HK" wrote in message
...
I'll give my opinion for what it is worth.

I'm a physician in Geriatric and Internal Medicine in Australia.

From what describe, if accurate, your father likely has Alzheimer's
disease. While many would question giving a diagnosis over usenet, it's
not a big call as Alzheimer's is the commonest cause of dementia by a
large margin ( about 3/4 of all cases at that age) and affecting about
25%
of 85 year olds. The lack of judgement and forgetfulness you describe is
typical. Many are under the mistaken impression that these are a natural
concomitant of aging but that is not the case- Three out of four 85 year
olds are cognitively normal.

While I know nothing of your medicolegal systems (I'm assuming you're in
the US), here, the appropriate step would be a medical assessment to
make
or refute a diagnosis and if he is suffering from Alzheimer's of
significant degree, and thus not have decision making capacity, then
take
the suitable steps to protect him and others from harm.

Of course if he does not have a disease like Alzheimer's affecting his
cognition and is simply a foolish/stubborn/cantankerous old man then he
and his friend can accept any risk they choose. Playing the odds, I
think
the likelihood is a dementing illness in the early stages.

Unfortunately we see quite commonly the effects of Alzheimer's disease
too
late to intervene. Many a family business has been ruined by bad
decision
making from dementia before it is picked up, leaving the spouse
destitute.

I do go sailing as well - hopefully the off topic post is excused.

Peter HK
IF you're a doctor, and IF he's got Alzheimer's, how is sailing going to
make the rest of his life any worse?

It's certainly likely to shorten it and make its end rather more stressful
and/or uncomfortable.

Less stressful?? Have you seen someone developing Alzheimer's?
There is more to life than comfort - ask any sailor!

A question of concern
 

Duncan Heenan wrote:

"Peter HK" wrote in message
"Duncan Heenan" wrote in message

There is no law
against unqualified people sailing boats, there is one regarding people
who drive cars, who have to be licensed and medically fit.

Here there are requirements for boat licences that do require
competency/medical fitness exactly like car licences.

I'm just wondering how unique the UK is in not making sailing licensable.
Are there (m)any other countries which don't? How long do people think
it will be before the UK does fall into line with the practices of
other countries? It may well happen through the back door, billed as a
measure to combat terrorism, smuggling, and money laundering.

In that case the question is self answering - if he can get a licence he
can go, if he can't he can't.

He might already have one. It could be that licensing involves a once-only
test and no periodic medicals.

A question of concern
 

"Ronald Raygun" wrote in message
. uk...
Duncan Heenan wrote:

"Peter HK" wrote in message
"Duncan Heenan" wrote in message

There is no law
against unqualified people sailing boats, there is one regarding people
who drive cars, who have to be licensed and medically fit.

Here there are requirements for boat licences that do require
competency/medical fitness exactly like car licences.

I'm just wondering how unique the UK is in not making sailing licensable.
Are there (m)any other countries which don't? How long do people think
it will be before the UK does fall into line with the practices of
other countries? It may well happen through the back door, billed as a
measure to combat terrorism, smuggling, and money laundering.

More likely to be introduced to raise revenue for the Government. Radio
licencing already exists, though what you get for you money I'm not sure.
How can the Government 'own' radio frequencies?

In that case the question is self answering - if he can get a licence he
can go, if he can't he can't.

He might already have one. It could be that licensing involves a
once-only
test and no periodic medicals.
If so it's the regulations which are mad, not necessarily him.

A question of concern
 

Peter HK wrote:
"Duncan Heenan" wrote in message
...


Society's moral judgements are reflected in the law. There is no law
against unqualified people sailing boats, there is one regarding
people who drive cars, who have to be licensed and medically fit.
Your example is a poor one

Here there are requirements for boat licences that do require
competency/medical fitness exactly like car licences. Thus the
analogy is apt.


Really? That's a bit of a slippery argument, sport. Unless there've been
some legislative changes I'm unaware of, those rules apply to power boats
over 6hp. AFAIK a 100 year old blind man is perfectly at liberty t take his
70 foot sailboat out unfettered by any form of legislation. (this must still
be the case, because I'm sure there are a few of them sailing out of my
harbour).

because the demented man driving the car was doing so illegally.
Society has, by not requiring sailors to take tests, ruled that
anyone can go sailing on their own decision alone.

See above.

Relying on a doctor to decide on what
you should or should not do is rather like letting the motor mechanic
decide where you should drive your car to. I can see no reason to
give any more credence to a doctor's moral views than anyone else's,
lest of all the 'patient', especially when the patient doesn't even
feel ill.


I wasn't discussing "moral" views rather medicolegal issues. There
are Laws- which you seem to accept as a basis for society according
to your first sentence- dealing with mental capacity, substituted
decision making etc. I have to work within that framework.


This whole thread is surely posed from a moral viewpoint? Even if it is
legally possible to stop this guy setting sail, is it morally or ethically
correct to do so? If it is not legally possible to stop him, is it morally
or ethically correct to allow him to go (and perhaps more importantly put
others) in harms way?

It's not my place to judge, but if I was 85 and even halfway competent, I'd
think I'd earned the right to make the call myself. At 65 his partner has
probably earned the same right.

IMO it's irresponsible for anyone to put to sea with absolutely no skills,
and I can't imagine it will be much fun for a 65yo to do so, so I'm picking
it would be a pretty short trip in any event, one way or another. But that
is their mistake to make.

Ian

A question of concern
 

"Ian George" wrote in message
...

Really? That's a bit of a slippery argument, sport. Unless there've been
some legislative changes I'm unaware of, those rules apply to power boats
over 6hp. AFAIK a 100 year old blind man is perfectly at liberty t take
his 70 foot sailboat out unfettered by any form of legislation. (this must
still be the case, because I'm sure there are a few of them sailing out of
my harbour).

The rules have changed here in Queensland in the last year or so. I
understand that any vessel with a 6 hp or greater motor, even if an
auxiliary on a sailboat, requires a licenced skipper. I suppose that means
anyone can take out an engineless sailboat, no matter how large. Not many 70
footers without engines though.

The regulations include a compulsory course and on the water testing, by
registered testing authorities, so your blind man wouldn't make it. However,
he could still take out a dinghy.

I'm glad I got my licence years ago before all this nonsense but they'll
probably bring in retesting/renewal if they can make it pay!

Peter HK

A question of concern
 

Peter HK wrote:
"Ian George" wrote in message
...

Really? That's a bit of a slippery argument, sport. Unless there've
been some legislative changes I'm unaware of, those rules apply to
power boats over 6hp. AFAIK a 100 year old blind man is perfectly at
liberty t take his 70 foot sailboat out unfettered by any form of
legislation. (this must still be the case, because I'm sure there
are a few of them sailing out of my harbour).

The rules have changed here in Queensland in the last year or so. I
understand that any vessel with a 6 hp or greater motor, even if an
auxiliary on a sailboat, requires a licenced skipper. I suppose that
means anyone can take out an engineless sailboat, no matter how
large. Not many 70 footers without engines though.

I live in Queensland. I haven't read the regulations for years, but isn't
there something about the boat needing to be capable of planing?


The regulations include a compulsory course and on the water testing,
by registered testing authorities, so your blind man wouldn't make
it. However, he could still take out a dinghy.

I'm glad I got my licence years ago before all this nonsense but
they'll probably bring in retesting/renewal if they can make it pay!

As did I, mainly so I could drag kids around behind the Fizz-boat and do
some fishing.

I was until now unaware that I needed one to operate my 10m sailboat. Are
you sure of this?

Ian

A question of concern
 

"Ian George" wrote in message ...
.

I live in Queensland. I haven't read the regulations for years, but isn't
there something about the boat needing to be capable of planing?

Used to be the case but no longer


I was until now unaware that I needed one to operate my 10m sailboat. Are
you sure of this?

Ian

See http://www.msq.qld.gov.au/qt/msq.nsf/index/licensing

Our local yacht club highlighted this about 2 years ago so that everyone could go through the older simpler system before the change.

Peter HK

A question of concern
 

While reading aus.sport.sailing, I noticed "Peter HK"
felt compelled to write:

"Ian George" wrote in message ...

I live in Queensland. I haven't read the regulations for years, but isn't
there something about the boat needing to be capable of planing?

Used to be the case but no longer


I was until now unaware that I needed one to operate my 10m sailboat. Are
you sure of this?

Ian

See http://www.msq.qld.gov.au/qt/msq.nsf/index/licensing

Our local yacht club highlighted this about 2 years ago so that everyone could go through the older simpler system before the change.

I have had a licence for years so either didn't hear or didn't notice
this change. In fact, before licensing was mandatory I got a
boatmaster under the voluntary system in NZ about 30years ago (upon
discovering that dinghy prowess around the bouys hadn't taught me
anything about docking, anchoring, bouyage or navigation or any one of
a hundred other trivial issues :)

I feel constrained to point out, however, that this new 'lifetme
licence' doesn't appear capable of stopping me at 100 yo and
technically blind from terrorising you in my 70 footer (assuming of
course that I make it to 100, lose my eyesight and my boat magically
doubles in size at some stage :)

But thanks for the info.

Cheers,
Ian

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