Boat Sank due to Syphoning Effect
 

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 10:28:14 +0100, BrianH wrote:


The major problem is from having the corresponding valves
open when leaving the boat for any length of time, unlike
all others, which can (should) be closed.
BrianH.

I went to the canvas-covered and land-locked boat yesterday, as I do
every week or so whether I have work to do or not. As the wind was 25
knots from the East and consequently quite bitter, I didn't want to
hang about, but then I noticed a half-meter icicle hanging from the
port cockpit drain. When "on the hard" I leave ALL seacocks open,
aside from the engine intake, which stays closed to keep the
antifreeze in. Basically, I do the opposite to what I do in the water.

And I'm glad I do. The wind had at some point loosened the light line
holding down the canvas, which had sagged and accumulated several
kilos of ice. This had thawed and frozen more than once, and had
seeped through into the cockpit, which now requires "defrosting".

If the cockpit drains had NOT been open, I would have likely had
columns of ice in there and a thick layer of ice in the cockpit and on
one locker lid. Instead, 90% of it drained out. The only damage done
is some small tears to the canvas, which I will repair as soon as we
get a day without wind or snow even slightly above the freezing point.

Just some "front-line" experience. Leave your seacocks OPEN in the
winter, because a boat in a cradle is just a glorified bucket.

R.

Boat Sank due to Syphoning Effect
 

On 15 Dec 2005 18:14:02 -0600, Dave wrote:

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 16:05:11 -0500, rhys said:

When "on the hard" I leave ALL seacocks open,
aside from the engine intake, which stays closed to keep the
antifreeze in.

What is it you think will freeze if the engine intake is left open?

It's not what will freeze, it's what might expand and contract (the
antifreeze) and drip toxically on the ground. Bad form at the boat
club.

R.

Boat Sank due to Syphoning Effect
 

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 16:05:11 -0500, rhys wrote:

Just some "front-line" experience. Leave your seacocks OPEN in the
winter, because a boat in a cradle is just a glorified bucket.

===========================

Good advice but it doesn't go far enough. The cockpit drains can (and
will) become clogged with debris from time to time. From there to
flooding or ice damage is only a storm away, so it's important to
visit the boat and make sure the drains are actually clear.

Vented loops and suction
 

"Peggie Hall" wrote in message
om...
Skip Gundlach wrote:
Earlier (way earlier, maybe a year, in a thread about LectraSans) I
commented about the extraordinarily long runs in the aft head. The
removal of the LS makes the exhaust run only about 15 feet, total
(counting the 3' up and down it has to go to the vented loop top).

That's still too long...

In ordering the parts needed to repair the forward head, I see that there's
a straightline joker outflow. That will cut about 3' off the aft head run,
so I've ordered it...


As for the manual for your PH II, you can download and print one from
he http://www.raritaneng.com/tech_suppo...s_manuals.html


Well, having just returned from the boat, and, also, having gotten a copy of
the owner's manual for our heads, I see:

The owner's manual shows vented loops, but I'd missed them in my prior
perusal online of them, as it's so counter-intuitive given the short,
direct, installation of the line between the pump and the bowl.

However, the OM also shows the "TWK" which is for odor control and
lubrication, using "Raritan Concentrate #CON22". Your prior comments
indicated you thought odor control - through these presumed expensive
options, which our boat had - unnecessary - but this refers also to
lubrication. Given the challenge and cost of rebuilds, I'm wondering about
that part of it. In the past, your description(s) of how to
(preventatively) lube a head left me scratching mine (head) as ours didn't
seem to fit the description.

So, how does one (preventive maintenance) lube a PHII without disassembly?

Secondly, referring to another part of this thread, I see in our heads that
a proper shutoff is immediately adjacent to the intake to the pump body (see
my December gallery for illustration, as I redid the intake to that point).
If placarded for guests, and known for us, to have that shut when not in
operation, does that suffice and is it recommended procedure vs the
antisiphon loop?

Thanks.

L8R

Skip, in rehab, closer to climbing aboard


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Vented loops and suction
 

Skip Gundlach wrote:
The owner's manual shows vented loops, but I'd missed them in my
prior perusal online of them, as it's so counter-intuitive given the
short, direct, installation of the line between the pump and the
bowl.

It's only counter-intuitive if you don't read the directions. :)

However, the OM also shows the "TWK" which is for odor control and
lubrication, using "Raritan Concentrate #CON22". Your prior comments
indicated you thought odor control - through these presumed
expensive options, which our boat had - unnecessary - but this refers
also to lubrication.

You don't need the TWK (toilet water kit)...It doesn't lubricate any
better than plain water does. Raritan Concentrate is a nasty chemical
(quaternary ammonium compound) left over from the days when all toilets
flushed directly overboard. Its only real purpose was to "sanitize" the
waste slightly to reduce odor as it went out. Raritan has strongly
considered discontinuing it, but still sell enough of it that they keep
talking themselves out of doing so.

So, how does one (preventive maintenance) lube a PHII without
disassembly?

One doesn't. But it's not THAT much of a PITA to lift the pump off
the base and shoot some teflon grease into it just once or twice a year.

Secondly, referring to another part of this thread, I see in our
heads that a proper shutoff...

I'm not sure what you mean by "proper shutoff"...seacock?

... is immediately adjacent to the intake to
the pump body (see my December gallery for illustration, as I redid
the intake to that point). If placarded for guests, and known for us,
to have that shut when not in operation, does that suffice and is it
recommended procedure vs the antisiphon loop?

No. Neither a seacock nor any other shutoff valve in a line is a
substitute for a vented loop...they serve two completely different
functions in addition to protecting people from themselves. All the good
intentions and placards in the world cannot guarantee that no one will
ever neglect to close a seacock or never leave the toilet in the "wet" mode.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

Vented loops and suction
 

"Peggie Hall" wrote in message
. com...
Skip Gundlach wrote:
The owner's manual shows vented loops, but I'd missed them in my
prior perusal online of them, as it's so counter-intuitive given the
short, direct, installation of the line between the pump and the
bowl.

It's only counter-intuitive if you don't read the directions. :)

Heh. Having found them installed already, I missed that part :{))


However, the OM also shows the "TWK" which is for odor control and
lubrication, using "Raritan Concentrate #CON22". Your prior comments
indicated you thought odor control - through these presumed
expensive options, which our boat had - unnecessary - but this refers
also to lubrication.

You don't need the TWK (toilet water kit)...It doesn't lubricate any
better than plain water does. Raritan Concentrate is a nasty chemical
(quaternary ammonium compound) left over from the days when all toilets
flushed directly overboard. Its only real purpose was to "sanitize" the
waste slightly to reduce odor as it went out. Raritan has strongly
considered discontinuing it, but still sell enough of it that they keep
talking themselves out of doing so.

So, how does one (preventive maintenance) lube a PHII without
disassembly?

One doesn't. But it's not THAT much of a PITA to lift the pump off
the base and shoot some teflon grease into it just once or twice a year.

Secondly, referring to another part of this thread, I see in our
heads that a proper shutoff...

I'm not sure what you mean by "proper shutoff"...seacock?

Yes - seacock.
http://justpickone.org/skip/gallery/...ber& start=65
has a couple of pictures of the forward head's unit; the aft head's is in
the base next to the pump, but identical, triangular-based, barbed-end unit.

... is immediately adjacent to the intake to
the pump body (see my December gallery for illustration, as I redid
the intake to that point). If placarded for guests, and known for us,
to have that shut when not in operation, does that suffice and is it
recommended procedure vs the antisiphon loop?

No. Neither a seacock nor any other shutoff valve in a line is a
substitute for a vented loop...they serve two completely different
functions in addition to protecting people from themselves. All the good
intentions and placards in the world cannot guarantee that no one will
ever neglect to close a seacock or never leave the toilet in the "wet"
mode.

Well, I agree about the "wet" bit - but, since our now-long-ago discussion
of dry pumping, that's going to be the requirement, regardless of above or
below the waterline, as I'd like nothing better than to have empty pipes
(other than the exhaust part below the waterline, of course).

Thanks for the input. Got any recommendations for teflon grease supply?

L8R

Skip


--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

The Society for the Preservation of Tithesis commends your ebriated
and scrutible use of delible and defatigable, which are gainly, sipid
and couth. We are gruntled and consolate that you have the ertia and
eptitude to choose such putably pensible tithesis, which we parage.

Stamp out Sesquipedalianism

Vented loops and suction
 

Skip Gundlach wrote:
Thanks for the input. Got any recommendations for teflon grease supply?

SuperLube is the best IMO...they make a whole range of greases, so you
only want the thick teflon grease in a tube, not the the spray or
liquid. It's also good for y-valves, diaphragm pumps and any other pump
that stays wet. A $3.95 tube of it should last you several years.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

Vented loops and suction
 

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 03:35:02 GMT, Peggie Hall
wrote:


SuperLube is the best IMO...they make a whole range of greases, so you
only want the thick teflon grease in a tube, not the the spray or
liquid. It's also good for y-valves, diaphragm pumps and any other pump
that stays wet. A $3.95 tube of it should last you several years.

I use a tube of Quicksilver Teflon lubricant because it serves both
plumbing and engine purposes onboard and (so far) has lasted years at
around the same $5 price point. Last time I used it was to seat an
O-ring for a basket-style debris filter between the raw water pump and
the block on my Atomic 4. It's widely available.

R.

Vented loops and suction
 

rhys wrote:
I use a tube of Quicksilver Teflon lubricant because it serves both
plumbing and engine purposes onboard and (so far) has lasted years at
around the same $5 price point. Last time I used it was to seat an
O-ring for a basket-style debris filter between the raw water pump and
the block on my Atomic 4. It's widely available.

Quicksilver is a petroleum based lubricant...not recommended for use in
toilets 'cuz petroleum degrades rubber. You really should look for a
synthetic based teflon grease--which SuperLube is--next time you have to
buy a tube of it. If you can't find it anywhere else, try swimming pool
supply stores...it's the recommended lubricant for pool pumps, filters
etc too.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

Head maintenance (was) Vented loops and suction
 

"Peggie Hall" wrote in message
. com...

Quicksilver is a petroleum based lubricant...not recommended for use in
toilets 'cuz petroleum degrades rubber. You really should look for a
synthetic based teflon grease--which SuperLube is--next time you have to
buy a tube of it. If you can't find it anywhere else, try swimming pool
supply stores...it's the recommended lubricant for pool pumps, filters etc
too.


This discussion reminded me that in another mailing list I'm on, the topic
of keeping the pipes clean came up. I gave them your vinegar prescription,
but a couple of posters have advocated Muriatic acid, sometimes with a
dollop of veggie oil for the lube.

My thought was that was pretty harsh stuff, but, certainly, it ought to do a
number on calcium. What are your thoughts on the subject (Muriatic, i.e.,
vs vinegar as effective/more effective/harmful to components)?

Thanks. And thanks for the lube pointer...

L8R

Skip

--
Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you
didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail
away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore.
Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain

Head maintenance (was) Vented loops and suction
 

Skip Gundlach wrote:
This discussion reminded me that in another mailing list I'm on, the topic
of keeping the pipes clean came up. I gave them your vinegar prescription,
but a couple of posters have advocated Muriatic acid, sometimes with a
dollop of veggie oil for the lube.

My thought was that was pretty harsh stuff, but, certainly, it ought to do a
number on calcium. What are your thoughts on the subject (Muriatic, i.e.,
vs vinegar as effective/more effective/harmful to components)?

A 12% solution of muriatic acid in water has long been the recommended
"cure" for mineral buildup in hoses--sanitation, exhaust, engine
intake--and also to clean the electrodes in a Lectra/San. It is nasty
stuff and needs careful handling, but it won't hurt anything in the system.

White vinegar--which is more acidic than cider--also works, but easier
to use a preventative than a cure. Repeated applications will eventually
dissolve a heavy buildup--and vinegar is a lot safer to handle, whereas
a single "dose" of muriatic acid will do it. So prevention is the best
approach--a cupful flushed through the hoses once a week. Do that and
you'll never need to choose between muriatic and vinegar.

--
Peggie
----------
Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and
Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor"
http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304

Vented loops and suction
 

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:51:35 GMT, Peggie Hall
wrote:

Quicksilver is a petroleum based lubricant...not recommended for use in
toilets 'cuz petroleum degrades rubber. You really should look for a
synthetic based teflon grease--which SuperLube is--next time you have to
buy a tube of it. If you can't find it anywhere else, try swimming pool
supply stores...it's the recommended lubricant for pool pumps, filters
etc too.

OK, good point, Peggy. I use it in the raw water pump as the vane is
neoprene/nitrile, not rubber, and I tend just to use it for seating
O-rings, not general lubing. For that, I run some vegetable oil in the
pump.

But I will take your advice nonetheless.

R.

Boat Sank due to Syphoning Effect
 

Peggie Hall wrote in news:4jmnf.32927$q%.3104
@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com:

Jeff wrote:
Just curious - do most new boats come without the vented loop,

Toilet mfrs do not include vented loops because they're only needed if
the toilet is below the waterline and/or discharges below the the
waterline...so a good number would be discarded, adding needless cost
to
all units. So it's up to the builder or the owner to install 'em.
Some
builders do, most production builders don't.

or is
this caused by poor refits (or both)?

For production builders, it's about cost. Among owners, many don't even
know what a vented loop is, much less whether they need one...I fielded
a post on a forum recently from someone who'd just replaced his toilet
and reported how he was able to discard about 8' of intake hose because
his new toilet had only a short piece of hose connecting the pump to
the
bowl instead of all that extra hose and a fitting he couldn't figure
out
the need for.

Also, do the vents get clogged or
fail on their own? How often should they be cleaned out?

The vent should have an air valve in it that only allows air INTO the
line to break a siphon (which is why the intake loop has to be between
the pump and the bowl...if it's installed between the thru-hull and the
pump, it interferes with the pump's ability to prime)...and yes, the
air
valves do get clogged up with salt or waste...and yes, they wear
out...requiring periodic cleaning and/or replacement.

But because the air valve in most loops is a replaceable item, often
only sold separately instead of being included with new loops, many
boat
owners don't know air valves exist...and without the valve, the
waste/flush water will squirt out the hole in the top of the loop where
the air valve should go when the toilet is flushed. It never occurs to
most people that there's a part missing...instead, they put a vent line
on it...which is the WRONG thing to do because that line can only be
1/4", and so it quickly becomes clogged by waste squirting into it,
turning the vented loop into an UNvented loop that no longer can
function as a siphon break...it becomes just a high arch in the line.

Although a vented loop can break a siphon--which is always started by
PULLING liquid through a line--it cannot prevent water from being
PUSHED
through a line...which can happen while underway due to the pressure of
water against the hull and any open thru-hull. It's an effect known as
"ram water"--water being rammed up a line. So a vented loop will not
prevent water from flooding and overflowing the bowl while underway,
only while the boat is at rest. So it's advisable to keep all head
seacocks closed except when actually in use while aboard AND when away
from the boat...and any tank overboard discharge thru-hull closed at
ALL
times except when actually dumping the tank...'cuz if water can flood
the toilet, it can also flood the tank. If the head seacocks are in
locations that are so inaccessible as to make keeping 'em closed while
aboard except when using the toilet, install shutoff valves in 'em
right
next to the toilet.

Btw...something the first poster said:

The boat has now been pumped out and is afloat again and on inspection
there is no obvious reason why the boat would take on so much water to
sink the boat in a 12 hour period since it was last viewed...the only
explanation as to the cause that has been offered is that the bow wave
caused the toilet to overflow and created a syphoning effect which in
turn filled the yacht with water.

That possible explanation makes it obvious it was noticed that the head
seacocks were open...how much MORE obvious a reason would anyone
qualified to inspect the boat need???? And if they weren't closed
after
raising the boat, that boat is gonna sink again (if it hasn't already)!


Oh jes can you draw usa a picture?

Boat Sank due to Syphoning Effect