Hydrogen fueled boating
 

I'm looking into my crystal ball and envisioning being a liveaboard on a 40
foot powerboat, 8 months out of the year, likely stationed in Savannah. We
dream of touring the ICW, Gulf, Caribbean, and the Great Lakes.

Then we calculate today's fuel costs into the picture and gasp! Will
H-boats being standard in 10-15 years? Will fuel costs drop as supply
demands drops? Will a powerboater will be able to cruise all day for $50?

Discussion.

-Greg

Hydrogen fueled boating
 

15 years, absolutely, no problem!
One of my university professors was deep in the development of both a
hydrogen fueled internal combustion engine and a hydrogen fuel cell. Both
nearly ready for production. OF course that was 40 years ago.
BF

"Dene" dene@(nospam) ipns.com wrote in message
...


I'm looking into my crystal ball and envisioning being a liveaboard on a
40
foot powerboat, 8 months out of the year, likely stationed in Savannah.
We
dream of touring the ICW, Gulf, Caribbean, and the Great Lakes.

Then we calculate today's fuel costs into the picture and gasp! Will
H-boats being standard in 10-15 years? Will fuel costs drop as supply
demands drops? Will a powerboater will be able to cruise all day for $50?

Discussion.

-Greg

Hydrogen fueled boating
 

The technology will probably be there but will you be able to find a
hydrogen fuel dock in Georgetown, Exuma or points south?

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"Dene" dene@(nospam) ipns.com wrote in message
...


I'm looking into my crystal ball and envisioning being a liveaboard on a
40
foot powerboat, 8 months out of the year, likely stationed in Savannah.
We
dream of touring the ICW, Gulf, Caribbean, and the Great Lakes.

Then we calculate today's fuel costs into the picture and gasp! Will
H-boats being standard in 10-15 years? Will fuel costs drop as supply
demands drops? Will a powerboater will be able to cruise all day for $50?

Discussion.

-Greg

Hydrogen fueled boating
 

I'd be very surprised to see Hydrogen power common on the waterways.

I predict we'll see more electric power, especially if battery
technology improves. Also, diesel-electric may be more common.

The other trend I expect is more catamaran trawlers, or power cats.
Fuel economy is much better than traditional displacement hulls. The
PDQ MV34 user 4 gal/hour at 16 knots.


Dene wrote:
I'm looking into my crystal ball and envisioning being a liveaboard on a 40
foot powerboat, 8 months out of the year, likely stationed in Savannah. We
dream of touring the ICW, Gulf, Caribbean, and the Great Lakes.

Then we calculate today's fuel costs into the picture and gasp! Will
H-boats being standard in 10-15 years? Will fuel costs drop as supply
demands drops? Will a powerboater will be able to cruise all day for $50?

Discussion.

-Greg

Hydrogen fueled boating
 

"Iceland already has a plan to convert from fossil fuels to hydrogen. In
2003, the government, working with a consortium of companies led by Shell
and DaimlerChrysler, took the first step by beginning to convert the capital
city of Reykjavik's fleet of 80 buses from internal combustion to fuel cell
engines. Shell built a hydrogen station to service the buses, using
inexpensive hydroelectricity to produce clean hydrogen. In the next stage,
Iceland's automobiles will be converted to fuel cell engines. And in the
final stage, the Icelandic fishing fleet - the centerpiece of its economy -
also will convert to fuel cells."

Hydrogen fueled boating
 

"Dene" dene@(nospam) ipns.com wrote in message
...


I'm looking into my crystal ball and envisioning being a liveaboard on a
40
foot powerboat, 8 months out of the year, likely stationed in Savannah.
We
dream of touring the ICW, Gulf, Caribbean, and the Great Lakes.

Then we calculate today's fuel costs into the picture and gasp! Will
H-boats being standard in 10-15 years? Will fuel costs drop as supply
demands drops? Will a powerboater will be able to cruise all day for $50?

Discussion.

-Greg

From what I've seen most scientist think realistic fuel cell
technology...including the distribution factor in the equation, is at least
20-30 years out. Another big sticking point is the unknown -- if you believe
in the human induced global warming theory then we must be concerned with
fuel cell technology. The primary emission of a hydrogen powered engine is
water vapor; of the "greenhouse gases" water vapor is the most prominent
followed by CO2. So, what happens if we begin releasing millions/billions of
pounds of previously unreleased water vapor...will it exacerbate global
warming? Unintended consequences? As we all know, the road to hell is paved
with good intentions.

Hydrogen fueled boating
 

Dene wrote:
I'm looking into my crystal ball and envisioning being a liveaboard on a 40
foot powerboat, 8 months out of the year, likely stationed in Savannah. We
dream of touring the ICW, Gulf, Caribbean, and the Great Lakes.

Then we calculate today's fuel costs into the picture and gasp! Will
H-boats being standard in 10-15 years? Will fuel costs drop as supply
demands drops? Will a powerboater will be able to cruise all day for $50?

Discussion.

-Greg



Only if he is willing to cruise at about 3 knots, on account of the
hull speed rise in drag. At really low speeds, boats can be very
efficient. At high speed, forget it, you would need a nuclear
reactor if regular fuel won't do.

At economical speed, you may as well calculate on sails, and patience.

Unless....

If you had a huge, low pressure fuel tank, say, sewn into the
inflated sails, that was able to carry the boat so it was mostley
out of the water, an airship with a sail and a low weight
dynamically erect or towed leeboard / centreboard, and solar cells
to make H2 at sea....

One advantage is that to make water, all you have to do is burn H2.
to power or heat the boat. This would save weight, too.

Hmmmmm.

Terry K

Hydrogen fueled boating
 

On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 10:23:27 -0800, Dene wrote:

I'm looking into my crystal ball and envisioning being a liveaboard on a
40 foot powerboat, 8 months out of the year, likely stationed in
Savannah. We dream of touring the ICW, Gulf, Caribbean, and the Great
Lakes.

Then we calculate today's fuel costs into the picture and gasp! Will
H-boats being standard in 10-15 years? Will fuel costs drop as supply
demands drops? Will a powerboater will be able to cruise all day for
$50?

You can still do it today with a modest single screw diesel trawler.

It's unfortunate that the mainstream recreational power yacht these days
is a semi-displacement fuel hog. Just say no! There are alternatives.

Is the anchorage 100 miles away really any better than the one half that
far? Life's just as good at 8kt, vs. 15. Also, people will chug around
all day using 50-100% more fuel, not to mention put up with double the
maintenance, just because docking is easier with twin screws. This is
absurd. Learn to drive, and set yourself free...

Matt O.

Hydrogen fueled boating
 

On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:49:59 -0500, bowgus wrote:

"Iceland already has a plan to convert from fossil fuels to hydrogen. In
2003, the government, working with a consortium of companies led by Shell
and DaimlerChrysler, took the first step by beginning to convert the capital
city of Reykjavik's fleet of 80 buses from internal combustion to fuel cell
engines. Shell built a hydrogen station to service the buses, using
inexpensive hydroelectricity to produce clean hydrogen. In the next stage,
Iceland's automobiles will be converted to fuel cell engines. And in the
final stage, the Icelandic fishing fleet - the centerpiece of its economy -
also will convert to fuel cells."

The sticky point with hydrogen is that it takes so much energy to
produce. Where are we going to get all this energy, which we're already
short of?

Iceland is blessed with practically unlimited geothermal energy. So they
can produce hydrogen for their own use as well as export.

Matt O.

Hydrogen fueled boating
 

My opinion ... for long term hydro (I'm in canada eh), wind, solar make
sense (usually lotsa wind, solar, and water around boats by the way). But
for the short/near term, it's looking like mainly natural gas ... e.g bld
has some units selling in japan, fcel units here and there. All I know is,
somebody better start building that hydrogen infrastructure (and finish it)
while we still have the fossil fuels to do the work.

The sticky point with hydrogen is that it takes so much energy to
produce. Where are we going to get all this energy, which we're already
short of?

Iceland is blessed with practically unlimited geothermal energy. So they
can produce hydrogen for their own use as well as export.

Matt O.

Hydrogen fueled boating
 

bowgus wrote:
My opinion ... for long term hydro (I'm in canada eh), wind, solar make
sense (usually lotsa wind, solar, and water around boats by the way). But
for the short/near term, it's looking like mainly natural gas ... e.g bld
has some units selling in japan, fcel units here and there. All I know is,
somebody better start building that hydrogen infrastructure (and finish it)
while we still have the fossil fuels to do the work.


The sticky point with hydrogen is that it takes so much energy to
produce. Where are we going to get all this energy, which we're
already
short of?


There is no shortage of energy. There is a shortage of power
conditioning technology, like refineries, battery manufacturers, or
solar collectors.

There will be no actual oil shortage for at least 10 years. Longer,
if we each take personal responsibility for reducing energy wastage
and usage in a big way.

We are being weaned, ever so gradually, by the oil guys who want to
orchestrate the last 10 years of oil to be a pricing frenzy. They
are consolidating their garrotte on the refinery industry, now.

Someone should start up a company to build a modest refinery on a
big old slow ship with tanker hose connections, perhaps an obsolete
single skinned tanker? You could anchor it anywhere, and empty it if
a storm threatened. A refinery is just a big old still, after all.
You can make a moonshine still from an old coffee maker.


Think of hydrogen as part of a battery system, a refillable battery,
if you will. The hydrogen gets "charged" at a hilly wind or desert
sun site, and tanked or pipelined to users, who "discharge" it to
create a substitute for transpiration, where we cut down trees to
build this city.

It's not rocket psciance, it's rock and roll.

If Vegas's sewers went to a solar lagoon, the water extracted by
Zenon (TM) Zeaweed (TM) could provide hydrogen without having to
pipe in special water, or poison the ditch to the sea. Is there a
runoff from Vegas, a river, or something? Some of the hydrogen
produced by solar power and electrolysis and stored under a tarp
could even be used to provide peak load electricity in a turbine or
internal combustion super clean "steam" engine, bonus exhaust: pure
water. The dried crap, sterilized by the sun, would make good
odourless fertilizer for corn to make corny diesel, gasahol, and
livestock feed, for the rabbits or goats under the sunshade solar
collectors.

Trangenic goats can be used to produce very fancy medical drug
feedstock, and would never escape death valley, whatever, unaided.

Serendipity? Problems, or solutions? It's really all in our attitude.

We want lotsa cheap durable solar shingles, and the right to sell
excess power back to the hydro company, even at 15 percent
efficiency, or windmills where we can't hear them and where there
are no birds or bats!

Low pressure H2 pipelines would not depress permafrost, and could
even float on cables above the ground or river crossing using low
pressure anti static plastic pipes, greenhouse ventilation tubes
actually. Such a pipeline could be unreeled from a helicopter, and
anchored in rock, filling with gas as it is installed in the air.
Crews could use very simple straight clamps to essentially close the
low pressure line wherever needed. Occasional ground valves could
contain mishaps, like Caribou antler entanglements.

We need lightweight, flexible solar cells to print on the tops of
the gas bags, along with the telemetered pressure gauges, like the
ones they are going to print on solar powered electro-deflective-gel
fleshed orthinopter high altitude balloon launched surveillance
robot birds, like they demo'd on Discovery last week. Ain't war
technology great?

What do you think they use to lift big balloons, H2? Helium? Don't
make me laugh! Who do you think sabotaged the Hindenburg, and why?
Who promotes expensive, inefficient helium to preserve their old
technology? Yup, shipping magnates, the oil guys, the heavy
pipeline guys, and wildcat drillers.

That is the future, but don't look to the oil guys to put themselves
out of business real soon, yet.

I said it about tungsten, of which I have a now near worthless
collection recycled from incandescent bulbs over the years, and I
optimistically say it about oil, Like some one said about buggy
whips. Horses might still be popular if it wasn't for the horse muck.

Oil is becoming obsolete, just like coal did. There are energy wars
being conducted internally, by rich traitors and poor
scientist-enterprenuer heroes.

Set the army engineers on it, if you want to see a peace dividend.
Remember that quaint term "Peace Dividend?"

There is lots more coal in the ground, we just don't need it right
now, because oil is easier and more profitable.

There is no shortage of energy, only of imagination.

Terry K


Iceland is blessed with practically unlimited geothermal energy. So they
can produce hydrogen for their own use as well as export.

Matt O.

Hydrogen fueled boating
 

Good read. Thanks!

-Greg


"Terry Spragg" wrote in message
...
bowgus wrote:
My opinion ... for long term hydro (I'm in canada eh), wind, solar make
sense (usually lotsa wind, solar, and water around boats by the way).
But
for the short/near term, it's looking like mainly natural gas ... e.g
bld
has some units selling in japan, fcel units here and there. All I know
is,
somebody better start building that hydrogen infrastructure (and finish
it)
while we still have the fossil fuels to do the work.


The sticky point with hydrogen is that it takes so much energy to
produce. Where are we going to get all this energy, which we're
already
short of?


There is no shortage of energy. There is a shortage of power
conditioning technology, like refineries, battery manufacturers, or
solar collectors.

There will be no actual oil shortage for at least 10 years. Longer,
if we each take personal responsibility for reducing energy wastage
and usage in a big way.

We are being weaned, ever so gradually, by the oil guys who want to
orchestrate the last 10 years of oil to be a pricing frenzy. They
are consolidating their garrotte on the refinery industry, now.

Someone should start up a company to build a modest refinery on a
big old slow ship with tanker hose connections, perhaps an obsolete
single skinned tanker? You could anchor it anywhere, and empty it if
a storm threatened. A refinery is just a big old still, after all.
You can make a moonshine still from an old coffee maker.


Think of hydrogen as part of a battery system, a refillable battery,
if you will. The hydrogen gets "charged" at a hilly wind or desert
sun site, and tanked or pipelined to users, who "discharge" it to
create a substitute for transpiration, where we cut down trees to
build this city.

It's not rocket psciance, it's rock and roll.

If Vegas's sewers went to a solar lagoon, the water extracted by
Zenon (TM) Zeaweed (TM) could provide hydrogen without having to
pipe in special water, or poison the ditch to the sea. Is there a
runoff from Vegas, a river, or something? Some of the hydrogen
produced by solar power and electrolysis and stored under a tarp
could even be used to provide peak load electricity in a turbine or
internal combustion super clean "steam" engine, bonus exhaust: pure
water. The dried crap, sterilized by the sun, would make good
odourless fertilizer for corn to make corny diesel, gasahol, and
livestock feed, for the rabbits or goats under the sunshade solar
collectors.

Trangenic goats can be used to produce very fancy medical drug
feedstock, and would never escape death valley, whatever, unaided.

Serendipity? Problems, or solutions? It's really all in our attitude.

We want lotsa cheap durable solar shingles, and the right to sell
excess power back to the hydro company, even at 15 percent
efficiency, or windmills where we can't hear them and where there
are no birds or bats!

Low pressure H2 pipelines would not depress permafrost, and could
even float on cables above the ground or river crossing using low
pressure anti static plastic pipes, greenhouse ventilation tubes
actually. Such a pipeline could be unreeled from a helicopter, and
anchored in rock, filling with gas as it is installed in the air.
Crews could use very simple straight clamps to essentially close the
low pressure line wherever needed. Occasional ground valves could
contain mishaps, like Caribou antler entanglements.

We need lightweight, flexible solar cells to print on the tops of
the gas bags, along with the telemetered pressure gauges, like the
ones they are going to print on solar powered electro-deflective-gel
fleshed orthinopter high altitude balloon launched surveillance
robot birds, like they demo'd on Discovery last week. Ain't war
technology great?

What do you think they use to lift big balloons, H2? Helium? Don't
make me laugh! Who do you think sabotaged the Hindenburg, and why?
Who promotes expensive, inefficient helium to preserve their old
technology? Yup, shipping magnates, the oil guys, the heavy
pipeline guys, and wildcat drillers.

That is the future, but don't look to the oil guys to put themselves
out of business real soon, yet.

I said it about tungsten, of which I have a now near worthless
collection recycled from incandescent bulbs over the years, and I
optimistically say it about oil, Like some one said about buggy
whips. Horses might still be popular if it wasn't for the horse muck.

Oil is becoming obsolete, just like coal did. There are energy wars
being conducted internally, by rich traitors and poor
scientist-enterprenuer heroes.

Set the army engineers on it, if you want to see a peace dividend.
Remember that quaint term "Peace Dividend?"

There is lots more coal in the ground, we just don't need it right
now, because oil is easier and more profitable.

There is no shortage of energy, only of imagination.

Terry K


Iceland is blessed with practically unlimited geothermal energy. So
they
can produce hydrogen for their own use as well as export.

Matt O.

Hydrogen fueled boating
 

Good one Terry!
When I worked at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station I was amazed that the
"Florida Solar Energy Center" was a 1/2 acre lot with a chain link fence and
a building that couldn't have been more than 2,000 square feet. The 1/2 acre
also enclosed the parking lot! If you're familiar with it CCAFS, it borders
the South perimeter of Kennedy Space Center and combined, the together are
about 30 miles long.
There are SO many unused pads and facilities with an incredible amount of
open land around them.
It wasn't too hard to figure out why the Solar people were jammed into the
1/2 acre with not even enough room to walk between the ground mounted solar
panels.
I guess Washington can't squash development of alternative energy, but they
can make it hard to do!
The facility has since moved but still only has a staff of 15. Doesn't
really sound as if we are very serious does it?
MMC

"Terry Spragg" wrote in message
...
bowgus wrote:
My opinion ... for long term hydro (I'm in canada eh), wind, solar make
sense (usually lotsa wind, solar, and water around boats by the way).
But
for the short/near term, it's looking like mainly natural gas ... e.g
bld
has some units selling in japan, fcel units here and there. All I know
is,
somebody better start building that hydrogen infrastructure (and finish
it)
while we still have the fossil fuels to do the work.


The sticky point with hydrogen is that it takes so much energy to
produce. Where are we going to get all this energy, which we're
already
short of?


There is no shortage of energy. There is a shortage of power
conditioning technology, like refineries, battery manufacturers, or
solar collectors.

There will be no actual oil shortage for at least 10 years. Longer,
if we each take personal responsibility for reducing energy wastage
and usage in a big way.

We are being weaned, ever so gradually, by the oil guys who want to
orchestrate the last 10 years of oil to be a pricing frenzy. They
are consolidating their garrotte on the refinery industry, now.

Someone should start up a company to build a modest refinery on a
big old slow ship with tanker hose connections, perhaps an obsolete
single skinned tanker? You could anchor it anywhere, and empty it if
a storm threatened. A refinery is just a big old still, after all.
You can make a moonshine still from an old coffee maker.


Think of hydrogen as part of a battery system, a refillable battery,
if you will. The hydrogen gets "charged" at a hilly wind or desert
sun site, and tanked or pipelined to users, who "discharge" it to
create a substitute for transpiration, where we cut down trees to
build this city.

It's not rocket psciance, it's rock and roll.

If Vegas's sewers went to a solar lagoon, the water extracted by
Zenon (TM) Zeaweed (TM) could provide hydrogen without having to
pipe in special water, or poison the ditch to the sea. Is there a
runoff from Vegas, a river, or something? Some of the hydrogen
produced by solar power and electrolysis and stored under a tarp
could even be used to provide peak load electricity in a turbine or
internal combustion super clean "steam" engine, bonus exhaust: pure
water. The dried crap, sterilized by the sun, would make good
odourless fertilizer for corn to make corny diesel, gasahol, and
livestock feed, for the rabbits or goats under the sunshade solar
collectors.

Trangenic goats can be used to produce very fancy medical drug
feedstock, and would never escape death valley, whatever, unaided.

Serendipity? Problems, or solutions? It's really all in our attitude.

We want lotsa cheap durable solar shingles, and the right to sell
excess power back to the hydro company, even at 15 percent
efficiency, or windmills where we can't hear them and where there
are no birds or bats!

Low pressure H2 pipelines would not depress permafrost, and could
even float on cables above the ground or river crossing using low
pressure anti static plastic pipes, greenhouse ventilation tubes
actually. Such a pipeline could be unreeled from a helicopter, and
anchored in rock, filling with gas as it is installed in the air.
Crews could use very simple straight clamps to essentially close the
low pressure line wherever needed. Occasional ground valves could
contain mishaps, like Caribou antler entanglements.

We need lightweight, flexible solar cells to print on the tops of
the gas bags, along with the telemetered pressure gauges, like the
ones they are going to print on solar powered electro-deflective-gel
fleshed orthinopter high altitude balloon launched surveillance
robot birds, like they demo'd on Discovery last week. Ain't war
technology great?

What do you think they use to lift big balloons, H2? Helium? Don't
make me laugh! Who do you think sabotaged the Hindenburg, and why?
Who promotes expensive, inefficient helium to preserve their old
technology? Yup, shipping magnates, the oil guys, the heavy
pipeline guys, and wildcat drillers.

That is the future, but don't look to the oil guys to put themselves
out of business real soon, yet.

I said it about tungsten, of which I have a now near worthless
collection recycled from incandescent bulbs over the years, and I
optimistically say it about oil, Like some one said about buggy
whips. Horses might still be popular if it wasn't for the horse muck.

Oil is becoming obsolete, just like coal did. There are energy wars
being conducted internally, by rich traitors and poor
scientist-enterprenuer heroes.

Set the army engineers on it, if you want to see a peace dividend.
Remember that quaint term "Peace Dividend?"

There is lots more coal in the ground, we just don't need it right
now, because oil is easier and more profitable.

There is no shortage of energy, only of imagination.

Terry K


Iceland is blessed with practically unlimited geothermal energy. So
they
can produce hydrogen for their own use as well as export.

Matt O.

Hydrogen fueled boating
 

To clarify ... hydro, wind, solar energy could be used to create the
hydrogen. And it's looking like natural gas, swamp gas, you name it may be
used as well without the combustion side effects associated with getting
energy from gas.

The sticky point with hydrogen is that it takes so much energy to
produce. Where are we going to get all this energy, which we're already
short of?

Hydrogen fueled boating
 

OK, a little chemical reality here...

First, if creating the electricity to electrolyze water by "hydro,
wind,solar energy" were economical today, then it would also be true
that creating electricity for ANY use (including water electrolysis)
would be economical today. In the US, pretty much all the economical
hydro power has been tapped already (or is unavailable for other
reasons, eg. damming up the Colorado in the Grand Canyon is
unacceptable), and wind and solar are still considerably more expensive
than (depending on the location) burning natural gas, oil or coal to
make electricity. As soon as it becomes economically feasible to tear
down the coal-, oil- or gas-burning power plants and replace them with
windmills and/or solar cells, it will be done.

Second, obtaining hydrogen from "natural gas, swamp gas, you name it" is
already the current primary production methodology. The end product is
CO2, which comes from the carbon in the hydroCARBON source (exactly the
same amount of CO2 is produced as when the hydrocarbon is burned in a
power plant), and hydrogen. And of course, the amount of energy
contained in the product hydrogen is considerably less than what was
contained in the feed hydrocarbon. And no electricity is produced.


dons asbestos suit, getting ready for flame war

bob



bowgus wrote:
To clarify ... hydro, wind, solar energy could be used to create the
hydrogen. And it's looking like natural gas, swamp gas, you name it may be
used as well without the combustion side effects associated with getting
energy from gas.


The sticky point with hydrogen is that it takes so much energy to
produce. Where are we going to get all this energy, which we're already
short of?

Hydrogen fueled boating
 

There's still a lot of problems to be overcome with using hydrogen, or swamp
gas, or biogas... or any other non-petroleum based fuel... in vehicles.

First and foremost, there's the energy density problem. All of those gases
have far less energy content per unit volume than any petroleum product.
Ergo, it takes lots of gas to create the same horsepower. Where are you
gonna put all that gas in a vehicle? You have to compress it and put it
into some kind of storage tank. Compressing anything takes more energy.
How are you going to create the hydrogen or other gas? You don't just
gather it up. It has to be manufactured, which takes more energy. Some
methods allow you to use passive energy such as solar, but take a long time
to generate the quantities required to be useful. Other methods require
energy input from... petroleum fuels... to create the "clean" gas. Ack.

Second, with hydrogen there is a huge storage issue. Hydrogen molecules are
tiny, the tiniest molecules around. They're even smaller than helium
molecules. Ever watch a helium balloon deflate over days? It leaks THROUGH
the balloon, not out the knot. Same thing would happen to a pressurized
hydrogen storage tank. Gradually the molecules would seep out and the tank
would empty. Not good. So, people are working on storage techniques using
metal hydrides to bind with the hydrogen, then release it upon demand.
Unfortunately, the "release" part requires more energy input.

Third, let's assume that we're talking about using a fuel cell approach to
convert hydrogen into energy. Fuel cells produce electricity. This means
electrical motors for a boat, and possibly larger battery banks. Ever
priced 100hp electric motors, not to mention 300hp ones? Wonder what the
power plant for a trawler consisting of a 200kW fuel cell, a bank of
batteries, two 100Hp motors, the associated electronic controllers, and the
huge inverter(s) for AC consumption onboard might cost? Ack. How about
what it would weigh?

Fourth, let's assume that we're not generating our own hydrogen or biogas or
swamp gas on our boats. How long do you think it will be before every
marina and fuel dock in cruising waters has a hose marked "hydrogen"? I
think the longterm answer will be some sort of sequential machine: hydrogen
generator feeds fuel cells which feed electric motors, or something. You'll
make your own hydrogen (or swamp gas, or ...) on the fly using sea water,
sunlight, and Special Sauce, then feed the gas you produce right into the
"engine". Hopefully, the "Special Sauce" will be cheap and available.

If I ever get into the cruising game, and I intend to - thus I'm lurking in
groups such as these - I'll try to employ alternative fuels. I just don't
think affordable diesel is going to last all that long into the future.
But, per my research, practical alternative fuels are ways away. Don't
believe me? Go to some of the web sites that promise such wondrous
technology. See how many have a commercial, viable product. Folks like to
talk about what can be done, but there are a LOT of technological and
economic hurdles yet to overcome before these alternative fuels are a viable
reality.



"bowgus" wrote in message
...
To clarify ... hydro, wind, solar energy could be used to create the
hydrogen. And it's looking like natural gas, swamp gas, you name it may be
used as well without the combustion side effects associated with getting
energy from gas.

The sticky point with hydrogen is that it takes so much energy to
produce. Where are we going to get all this energy, which we're
already
short of?

Hydrogen fueled boating
 

MMC wrote:

Good one Terry!
When I worked at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station I was amazed that the
"Florida Solar Energy Center" was a 1/2 acre lot with a chain link fence and
a building that couldn't have been more than 2,000 square feet. The 1/2 acre
also enclosed the parking lot! If you're familiar with it CCAFS, it borders
the South perimeter of Kennedy Space Center and combined, the together are
about 30 miles long.
There are SO many unused pads and facilities with an incredible amount of
open land around them.
It wasn't too hard to figure out why the Solar people were jammed into the
1/2 acre with not even enough room to walk between the ground mounted solar
panels.
I guess Washington can't squash development of alternative energy, but they
can make it hard to do!
The facility has since moved but still only has a staff of 15. Doesn't
really sound as if we are very serious does it?
MMC

This IS bloody serious. I believe it is the tip of an iceburg, at
the root of which is an avaricious oil industry, protecting it's
share of the energy market worth trillions by means fair and foul,
openly and subtley.

Organisations of every sort are bait for the ambitious, good hearted
and bad. I think the energy barons have only their own interest at
heart, and can purchase whatever scruples they may lack.

What ever happenned to fusion power research, and why can we not
purchase light, simple, efficient cars about as dangerous as a
motorcycle? I want an efficient reversed tricycle commuter with one
driving / normal regenerating braking wheel at the rear, for about
100 km, at highway speeds of about 100kph, with modest
accelleration, and wouln't mind recharging it at home from 110vac.

Two old bikes welded togeter, two lawn chairs side by side, canvas
covers, and a regenerating brake wheel motor like used on the
japanese / french electric would do me. Search the net for eliica.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/preview...htwheeler.html

Do you really think some oil merchant is gonna give me a startup
loan, or lend me a welder?

I figure such a beast could go for well under 10K. Wanna bet they
come out at about 29K?

Oil is obsolescent. The oil thinkers are chewing an old buggy whip.
The reason GM is losing market is 'cause they don't offer what car
buyers want. They should spend less on ads and more on market
research. The people still in the market for a car are the ones who
can't afford a huge SUV.

Terry K




"Terry Spragg" wrote in message
...

bowgus wrote:

My opinion ... for long term hydro (I'm in canada eh), wind, solar make
sense (usually lotsa wind, solar, and water around boats by the way).

But

for the short/near term, it's looking like mainly natural gas ... e.g

bld

has some units selling in japan, fcel units here and there. All I know

is,

somebody better start building that hydrogen infrastructure (and finish

it)

while we still have the fossil fuels to do the work.


The sticky point with hydrogen is that it takes so much energy to
produce. Where are we going to get all this energy, which we're
already
short of?



There is no shortage of energy. There is a shortage of power
conditioning technology, like refineries, battery manufacturers, or
solar collectors.

There will be no actual oil shortage for at least 10 years. Longer,
if we each take personal responsibility for reducing energy wastage
and usage in a big way.

We are being weaned, ever so gradually, by the oil guys who want to
orchestrate the last 10 years of oil to be a pricing frenzy. They
are consolidating their garrotte on the refinery industry, now.

Someone should start up a company to build a modest refinery on a
big old slow ship with tanker hose connections, perhaps an obsolete
single skinned tanker? You could anchor it anywhere, and empty it if
a storm threatened. A refinery is just a big old still, after all.
You can make a moonshine still from an old coffee maker.


Think of hydrogen as part of a battery system, a refillable battery,
if you will. The hydrogen gets "charged" at a hilly wind or desert
sun site, and tanked or pipelined to users, who "discharge" it to
create a substitute for transpiration, where we cut down trees to
build this city.

It's not rocket psciance, it's rock and roll.

If Vegas's sewers went to a solar lagoon, the water extracted by
Zenon (TM) Zeaweed (TM) could provide hydrogen without having to
pipe in special water, or poison the ditch to the sea. Is there a
runoff from Vegas, a river, or something? Some of the hydrogen
produced by solar power and electrolysis and stored under a tarp
could even be used to provide peak load electricity in a turbine or
internal combustion super clean "steam" engine, bonus exhaust: pure
water. The dried crap, sterilized by the sun, would make good
odourless fertilizer for corn to make corny diesel, gasahol, and
livestock feed, for the rabbits or goats under the sunshade solar
collectors.

Trangenic goats can be used to produce very fancy medical drug
feedstock, and would never escape death valley, whatever, unaided.

Serendipity? Problems, or solutions? It's really all in our attitude.

We want lotsa cheap durable solar shingles, and the right to sell
excess power back to the hydro company, even at 15 percent
efficiency, or windmills where we can't hear them and where there
are no birds or bats!

Low pressure H2 pipelines would not depress permafrost, and could
even float on cables above the ground or river crossing using low
pressure anti static plastic pipes, greenhouse ventilation tubes
actually. Such a pipeline could be unreeled from a helicopter, and
anchored in rock, filling with gas as it is installed in the air.
Crews could use very simple straight clamps to essentially close the
low pressure line wherever needed. Occasional ground valves could
contain mishaps, like Caribou antler entanglements.

We need lightweight, flexible solar cells to print on the tops of
the gas bags, along with the telemetered pressure gauges, like the
ones they are going to print on solar powered electro-deflective-gel
fleshed orthinopter high altitude balloon launched surveillance
robot birds, like they demo'd on Discovery last week. Ain't war
technology great?

What do you think they use to lift big balloons, H2? Helium? Don't
make me laugh! Who do you think sabotaged the Hindenburg, and why?
Who promotes expensive, inefficient helium to preserve their old
technology? Yup, shipping magnates, the oil guys, the heavy
pipeline guys, and wildcat drillers.

That is the future, but don't look to the oil guys to put themselves
out of business real soon, yet.

I said it about tungsten, of which I have a now near worthless
collection recycled from incandescent bulbs over the years, and I
optimistically say it about oil, Like some one said about buggy
whips. Horses might still be popular if it wasn't for the horse muck.

Oil is becoming obsolete, just like coal did. There are energy wars
being conducted internally, by rich traitors and poor
scientist-enterprenuer heroes.

Set the army engineers on it, if you want to see a peace dividend.
Remember that quaint term "Peace Dividend?"

There is lots more coal in the ground, we just don't need it right
now, because oil is easier and more profitable.

There is no shortage of energy, only of imagination.

Terry K


Iceland is blessed with practically unlimited geothermal energy. So

they

can produce hydrogen for their own use as well as export.

Matt O.

Hydrogen fueled boating
 

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 22:25:10 -0400, Terry Spragg wrote:
Oil is obsolescent. The oil thinkers are chewing an old buggy whip.
The reason GM is losing market is 'cause they don't offer what car
buyers want. They should spend less on ads and more on market
research. The people still in the market for a car are the ones who
can't afford a huge SUV.

why should they bother to retool and offer what people want when its
more profitable to change what people want with advertising and lobbying,
hm?

I would say that the government's true purpose is public protection - they
protect us from nasty foreign powers (via the military) but they seem to
be strangely quiet on protecting us from nasty corporations in our midst..

--
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=irelan...244,0.0822&t=k

Hydrogen fueled boating
 

Terry Spragg wrote:
MMC wrote:

Good one Terry!
When I worked at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station I was amazed that the
"Florida Solar Energy Center" was a 1/2 acre lot with a chain link
fence and
a building that couldn't have been more than 2,000 square feet. The
1/2 acre
also enclosed the parking lot! If you're familiar with it CCAFS, it
borders
the South perimeter of Kennedy Space Center and combined, the together
are
about 30 miles long.
There are SO many unused pads and facilities with an incredible amount of
open land around them.
It wasn't too hard to figure out why the Solar people were jammed into
the
1/2 acre with not even enough room to walk between the ground mounted
solar
panels.
I guess Washington can't squash development of alternative energy, but
they
can make it hard to do!
The facility has since moved but still only has a staff of 15. Doesn't
really sound as if we are very serious does it?
MMC


This IS bloody serious. I believe it is the tip of an iceburg, at the
root of which is an avaricious oil industry, protecting it's share of
the energy market worth trillions by means fair and foul, openly and
subtley.

Organisations of every sort are bait for the ambitious, good hearted and
bad. I think the energy barons have only their own interest at heart,
and can purchase whatever scruples they may lack.

What ever happenned to fusion power research, and why can we not
purchase light, simple, efficient cars about as dangerous as a
motorcycle? I want an efficient reversed tricycle commuter with one
driving / normal regenerating braking wheel at the rear, for about 100
km, at highway speeds of about 100kph, with modest accelleration, and
wouln't mind recharging it at home from 110vac.

Two old bikes welded togeter, two lawn chairs side by side, canvas
covers, and a regenerating brake wheel motor like used on the japanese /
french electric would do me. Search the net for eliica.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/preview...htwheeler.html

Do you really think some oil merchant is gonna give me a startup loan,
or lend me a welder?

I figure such a beast could go for well under 10K. Wanna bet they come
out at about 29K?

Oil is obsolescent. The oil thinkers are chewing an old buggy whip. The
reason GM is losing market is 'cause they don't offer what car buyers
want. They should spend less on ads and more on market research. The
people still in the market for a car are the ones who can't afford a
huge SUV.

Terry K




"Terry Spragg" wrote in message
...

bowgus wrote:

My opinion ... for long term hydro (I'm in canada eh), wind, solar make
sense (usually lotsa wind, solar, and water around boats by the way).


But

for the short/near term, it's looking like mainly natural gas ... e.g


bld

has some units selling in japan, fcel units here and there. All I know


is,

somebody better start building that hydrogen infrastructure (and finish


it)

while we still have the fossil fuels to do the work.


The sticky point with hydrogen is that it takes so much energy to
produce. Where are we going to get all this energy, which we're
already
short of?




There is no shortage of energy. There is a shortage of power
conditioning technology, like refineries, battery manufacturers, or
solar collectors.

There will be no actual oil shortage for at least 10 years. Longer,
if we each take personal responsibility for reducing energy wastage
and usage in a big way.

We are being weaned, ever so gradually, by the oil guys who want to
orchestrate the last 10 years of oil to be a pricing frenzy. They
are consolidating their garrotte on the refinery industry, now.

Someone should start up a company to build a modest refinery on a
big old slow ship with tanker hose connections, perhaps an obsolete
single skinned tanker? You could anchor it anywhere, and empty it if
a storm threatened. A refinery is just a big old still, after all.
You can make a moonshine still from an old coffee maker.


Think of hydrogen as part of a battery system, a refillable battery,
if you will. The hydrogen gets "charged" at a hilly wind or desert
sun site, and tanked or pipelined to users, who "discharge" it to
create a substitute for transpiration, where we cut down trees to
build this city.

It's not rocket psciance, it's rock and roll.

If Vegas's sewers went to a solar lagoon, the water extracted by
Zenon (TM) Zeaweed (TM) could provide hydrogen without having to
pipe in special water, or poison the ditch to the sea. Is there a
runoff from Vegas, a river, or something? Some of the hydrogen
produced by solar power and electrolysis and stored under a tarp
could even be used to provide peak load electricity in a turbine or
internal combustion super clean "steam" engine, bonus exhaust: pure
water. The dried crap, sterilized by the sun, would make good
odourless fertilizer for corn to make corny diesel, gasahol, and
livestock feed, for the rabbits or goats under the sunshade solar
collectors.

Trangenic goats can be used to produce very fancy medical drug
feedstock, and would never escape death valley, whatever, unaided.

Serendipity? Problems, or solutions? It's really all in our attitude.

We want lotsa cheap durable solar shingles, and the right to sell
excess power back to the hydro company, even at 15 percent
efficiency, or windmills where we can't hear them and where there
are no birds or bats!

Low pressure H2 pipelines would not depress permafrost, and could
even float on cables above the ground or river crossing using low
pressure anti static plastic pipes, greenhouse ventilation tubes
actually. Such a pipeline could be unreeled from a helicopter, and
anchored in rock, filling with gas as it is installed in the air.
Crews could use very simple straight clamps to essentially close the
low pressure line wherever needed. Occasional ground valves could
contain mishaps, like Caribou antler entanglements.

We need lightweight, flexible solar cells to print on the tops of
the gas bags, along with the telemetered pressure gauges, like the
ones they are going to print on solar powered electro-deflective-gel
fleshed orthinopter high altitude balloon launched surveillance
robot birds, like they demo'd on Discovery last week. Ain't war
technology great?

What do you think they use to lift big balloons, H2? Helium? Don't
make me laugh! Who do you think sabotaged the Hindenburg, and why?
Who promotes expensive, inefficient helium to preserve their old
technology? Yup, shipping magnates, the oil guys, the heavy
pipeline guys, and wildcat drillers.

That is the future, but don't look to the oil guys to put themselves
out of business real soon, yet.

I said it about tungsten, of which I have a now near worthless
collection recycled from incandescent bulbs over the years, and I
optimistically say it about oil, Like some one said about buggy
whips. Horses might still be popular if it wasn't for the horse muck.

Oil is becoming obsolete, just like coal did. There are energy wars
being conducted internally, by rich traitors and poor
scientist-enterprenuer heroes.

Set the army engineers on it, if you want to see a peace dividend.
Remember that quaint term "Peace Dividend?"

There is lots more coal in the ground, we just don't need it right
now, because oil is easier and more profitable.

There is no shortage of energy, only of imagination.

Terry K


Iceland is blessed with practically unlimited geothermal energy. So


they

can produce hydrogen for their own use as well as export.

Matt O.





Go ahead and build it, and then see if you can get it thru the NTSB
safety requirements... By the time it'll pass the NTSB (and all the
other alphabet soup) requirements, it'll look just like what you can
already buy...

Hydrogen fueled boating
 

Forget about hydrogen fuel. It is a non-starter, especially in a mobile
installation. Rockets don't count.

Hydrogen fueled boating
 

No matter to me ... I've been doing the reading, picking up stocks ... about
30% of the old self directed RSP is in H2 "startups" ... bld (bldp), fcel
to name two ... and this is definitely long term ... maybe 2020 :-). So did
you read that India plans to put 1,000,000 H2 vehicles on the road by 2020
http://www.h2fc.com/index.html ?

dons asbestos suit, getting ready for flame war

Hydrogen fueled boating
 

There's some sort of mis-assumption that 20 years from now we'll all still
be driving/cruising around as usual in H2 or whatever powered vehicles ...
my opinion, most of us peasants will be walking.

And this I find interesting ... about 99% of the energy that goes into your
gas tank is used to move the frikken vehicle ... and about 1% is used to
move the driver. How's that for modern day dinosaur ... complete with the
brain to weight ratio :-)

A light weight vehicle would not require "the same horsepower".

A significant paradigm shift is required before even beginning to think
constructively about replacing combustion and carbon energy.


Ergo, it takes lots of gas to create the same horsepower. Where are you
gonna put all that gas in a vehicle? You have to compress it and put it
into some kind of storage tank. Compressing anything takes more energy.
How are you going to create the hydrogen or other gas? You don't just
gather it up. It has to be manufactured, which takes more energy. Some
methods allow you to use passive energy such as solar, but take a long
time
to generate the quantities required to be useful. Other methods require
energy input from... petroleum fuels... to create the "clean" gas. Ack.

Hydrogen fueled boating
 

"bowgus" wrote in
:

my opinion, most of us peasants will be walking.


That might be true, but not because we're out of oil.

There's lots of interesting graphs at:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/pdf/perspectives.pdf
especially Figure 21, the real and nominal price of gas ADJUSTED FOR
INFLATION, those worthless US Dollars (or more worthless Canadian Dollars)
in your wallet.

As you can see, fuel is CHEAPER now than it was in 1980, if we take the
awful inflation out of it. We are in a zone of rising (until last week at
least) prices.

One thing the gummit bureaucrats conveniently left out of this pdf file was
a graph of FUEL TAXES REAL AND HIDDEN over these periods. Real gas tax, in
SC, is 34.3c/gallon, state and federal. That graph looks like a tangent
function on a linear scale. Remember all those fuel tax increases for
"education" all those years? Our kids should be coming out of grade school
with PhDs by now...yeah, right. They still can't read....

http://www.randomuseless.info/gasprice/adjusted.txt
Here....Someone has tabulated fuel prices in 1979 dollars for you....Hell,
fuel was cheaper in January of 2005 than it was in 1979! The graph is on:
http://www.randomuseless.info/gasprice/gasprice.html

The REAL devil in all this is the D word....DEVALUATION....There, I dared
say it. The goddamned government is running the printing presses full bore
diluting the value of the money into worthlessness. Remember copper
pennies? We lost our asses stamping out pennies costing more than a penny
was worth, so we switched to copper-painted aluminum. A few months ago, we
started losing our asses stamping out aluminum pennies costing more than an
aluminum penny is worth!

We're running the printing presses sending out checks to people who don't,
can't or won't produce WORK....a product to create value. We're printing
paper money to cover the checks. "Oil company profits are at an all time
high!" Exxon's stockholders made $10B with a B! How awful! But, is it?
Adjusted for inflation back 50 years, I doubt Exxon stockholders are making
any more VALUE, today than they were in 1955, when a loaf of bread was 39
cents and a whole meal in a diner was $1.89...including 10c for the Coke.

Wake up, people! Anyone working is really working for LESS and LESS every
year....trading their labor and hard work for less and less VALUE....and it
isn't going to change until the collapse, which I don't think is far
away... when..."most of us peasants will be walking."

--
Larry
If you plot gas prices against the price of a Chevy to put it in....Gas is
CHEAP!

Hydrogen fueled boating
 

RW Salnick wrote:

As soon as it becomes economically feasible to tear
down the coal-, oil- or gas-burning power plants and replace them with
windmills and/or solar cells, it will be done.

Welcome to the future. The province of Ontario will see the building of
nearly 3000 windmills over the next 5 years. Total output of 4500
megawatts or approx. 17% of the province's maximum daily summertime
usage. At a current construction cost of approx. $2.5 million each, the
construction costs are recouped in 10 years at current electricity rates.

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Loc...24583-sun.html

not that this has anything to do with hydrogen fueled boats

Hydrogen fueled boating
 

prodigal1 wrote:
RW Salnick wrote:

As soon as it becomes economically feasible to tear down the coal-,
oil- or gas-burning power plants and replace them with windmills
and/or solar cells, it will be done.


Welcome to the future. The province of Ontario will see the building of
nearly 3000 windmills over the next 5 years. Total output of 4500
megawatts or approx. 17% of the province's maximum daily summertime
usage. At a current construction cost of approx. $2.5 million each, the
construction costs are recouped in 10 years at current electricity rates.

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Loc...24583-sun.html

not that this has anything to do with hydrogen fueled boats

It does answer the question that was asked "where are we going to
get all this energy?" That was intended to "charge up the hydrogen
tanks," but is relevant whatever conditioning the energy requires to
substitute for fossil hydrocarbons.

If high compession H2 storage is elusive, it leaves it to us to
consider what format for H2 could benefit from low pressure tanks,
and that solitary format inevitably involves a gasbag, dirigible or
otherwise, even inflated kite sails made from non-static materials.

I want a low noise, low cost helicopter style sailboat, and am
convinced that a dirigible, pre-stressed inflated frame will make it
possible, if a little gargantuan. A neutral bouyancy active
hydrodynamic keel would enable an airship sailshape to sail to
windward. A longer line should enable a dirigible sailboat to
handle high seas and high winds over deep water.

Imagine a lawn chair, suspended on ropes by an H2 sail shaped
(lifting body shape) dirigible, and using a steerable lightweight
leeboard towed below in the water. A bellows able to apply nad
release a little overpressure to an inner chamber containing a
percentage of the H2 might enable a dirigible to ascend or descend
like a fish using a swim bladder only, or water could act as it does
in a MAC 26.

Tents and dodgers with inflated tube frames are the newest thing,
soon to become more popular than cheap balloon sofas?

A question in this regard, previously unanswered: at what pressure
does hydrogen weigh the same as air at STP? About 8 or 9
atmospheres? Could a kevlar or carbon fibre bag sealed with some
plastic film inside maintain neutral bouyancy (in air) H2 fuel pressure?

Neccessity is not yet percieved as pregnant enough, I guess.

Terry K

Hydrogen fueled boating
 

Now you're talking...

It seems to me we can make some significant progress in this area with
technology we've already developed, not pie in the sky stuff...


"bowgus" wrote in message
.. .
There's some sort of mis-assumption that 20 years from now we'll all still
be driving/cruising around as usual in H2 or whatever powered vehicles ...
my opinion, most of us peasants will be walking.

And this I find interesting ... about 99% of the energy that goes into
your
gas tank is used to move the frikken vehicle ... and about 1% is used to
move the driver. How's that for modern day dinosaur ... complete with the
brain to weight ratio :-)

A light weight vehicle would not require "the same horsepower".

A significant paradigm shift is required before even beginning to think
constructively about replacing combustion and carbon energy.


Ergo, it takes lots of gas to create the same horsepower. Where are you
gonna put all that gas in a vehicle? You have to compress it and put it
into some kind of storage tank. Compressing anything takes more energy.
How are you going to create the hydrogen or other gas? You don't just
gather it up. It has to be manufactured, which takes more energy. Some
methods allow you to use passive energy such as solar, but take a long
time
to generate the quantities required to be useful. Other methods require
energy input from... petroleum fuels... to create the "clean" gas. Ack.