halyard fixing system for 14' catamaran with jib?
 

I've got a caper cat that is in desperate need of updating. Im hoping
to sail it up the coast of australia, and have ben sailing it 3 times
weekly and updating what needs to be changed bit by bit, cleats,
rigging, shrouds etc etc, the halyards are a pain to me. The main
halyard clips in with a shackle on a bowline to a dinky little d ring
on the mast, then is tensioned with a downhaul rope through a pulley
then back up to a clam cleat. It takes me about 5 minutes to rig the
main on shore, and i'd have no chance of getting it down in a pinch if
i had to out in a big blow.

The jib is a bit easier to rig, just goes straight to a horn cleat, but
i cant get nearly enough tension on it, even taking a half turn and
pulling for all im worth. would also be slow to take down.

I've been looking around at other cats on the beach, but havent yet
seen anything i'd like. What i want is something thats fast to put up,
but super fast (and single handed, single action) to take down even
under load. I was thinking possibly a snapshackle on the main, but can
these be pulled under heavy loads?

The alternative i came up with (and bear with me hear, im from a rock
climbing background) is halyard, coming down the mast, alpine butterfly
tied into it with a D-shackle about 6" before it enters a small pulley
bolted to the mast then back up, thorough the D shackle on the alpine
butterfly, then back down to a clam cleat. This might sound a bit
confusing, and im hopeless at ascii art, so ill just hope you can
picture it and if not then i'll draw a picture. This would give me a
2:1 purchase and be quick to release,plus give me a bit of extra gear
for jury rigging but is there an easier way?

Thanks,
Shaun Van Poecke
14' caper cat
Sydney, Australia

halyard fixing system for 14' catamaran with jib?
 

"imagineero" wrote in message
oups.com...
I've got a caper cat that is in desperate need of updating. Im hoping
to sail it up the coast of australia, and have ben sailing it 3 times
weekly and updating what needs to be changed bit by bit, cleats,
rigging, shrouds etc etc, the halyards are a pain to me. The main
halyard clips in with a shackle on a bowline to a dinky little d ring
on the mast, then is tensioned with a downhaul rope through a pulley
then back up to a clam cleat. It takes me about 5 minutes to rig the
main on shore, and i'd have no chance of getting it down in a pinch if
i had to out in a big blow.

The jib is a bit easier to rig, just goes straight to a horn cleat, but
i cant get nearly enough tension on it, even taking a half turn and
pulling for all im worth. would also be slow to take down.

I've been looking around at other cats on the beach, but havent yet
seen anything i'd like. What i want is something thats fast to put up,
but super fast (and single handed, single action) to take down even
under load. I was thinking possibly a snapshackle on the main, but can
these be pulled under heavy loads?

The alternative i came up with (and bear with me hear, im from a rock
climbing background) is halyard, coming down the mast, alpine butterfly
tied into it with a D-shackle about 6" before it enters a small pulley
bolted to the mast then back up, thorough the D shackle on the alpine
butterfly, then back down to a clam cleat. This might sound a bit
confusing, and im hopeless at ascii art, so ill just hope you can
picture it and if not then i'll draw a picture. This would give me a
2:1 purchase and be quick to release,plus give me a bit of extra gear
for jury rigging but is there an easier way?

Thanks,
Shaun Van Poecke
14' caper cat
Sydney, Australia


I cant see why you are so worried about how long it takes to lower the sail
.. 3 minutes vs 10 minutes. If you are going to attempt to sail a caper cat
up the Tasman from Sydney you will be faced with storms that give fair
warning. You will have up to 20 minutes to lower your main or put a reef in,
whatever. Just look for the Cumulonmbis clouds to the south. The darker and
taller the cloud the less sail you want.

All the other nasty stuff builds from the west - norwest generally and is
well forecast.

The way to get the main down in a blow is to ease the main completey,
backwind the jib and put the helm to lee. (Heeving too) You will be able to
walk around the tramp and grab another beer while the boat looks after
itself. Oh, then drink the beer and lower the main.


DP

halyard fixing system for 14' catamaran with jib?
 

Not sure I follow your description(s) of the main halyard, but regarding the
jib halyard, a common rig for getting more halyard tension is to cut the
halyard 3 or 4 ft (or less, depending on your rig) above the base of the
mast with the sail raised. Attach the head of a becket block to the now
shortened halyard, and the tail of the halyard to the becket. Reeve the tail
through a cheek block mounted near the base of the mast, then through the
becket block, and you have 3:1 purchase, and not as much halyard to coil.
You could have wire for the halyard, and rope for the tail.

"imagineero" wrote in message
oups.com...
I've got a caper cat that is in desperate need of updating. Im hoping
to sail it up the coast of australia, and have ben sailing it 3 times
weekly and updating what needs to be changed bit by bit, cleats,
rigging, shrouds etc etc, the halyards are a pain to me. The main
halyard clips in with a shackle on a bowline to a dinky little d ring
on the mast, then is tensioned with a downhaul rope through a pulley
then back up to a clam cleat. It takes me about 5 minutes to rig the
main on shore, and i'd have no chance of getting it down in a pinch if
i had to out in a big blow.

The jib is a bit easier to rig, just goes straight to a horn cleat, but
i cant get nearly enough tension on it, even taking a half turn and
pulling for all im worth. would also be slow to take down.

I've been looking around at other cats on the beach, but havent yet
seen anything i'd like. What i want is something thats fast to put up,
but super fast (and single handed, single action) to take down even
under load. I was thinking possibly a snapshackle on the main, but can
these be pulled under heavy loads?

The alternative i came up with (and bear with me hear, im from a rock
climbing background) is halyard, coming down the mast, alpine butterfly
tied into it with a D-shackle about 6" before it enters a small pulley
bolted to the mast then back up, thorough the D shackle on the alpine
butterfly, then back down to a clam cleat. This might sound a bit
confusing, and im hopeless at ascii art, so ill just hope you can
picture it and if not then i'll draw a picture. This would give me a
2:1 purchase and be quick to release,plus give me a bit of extra gear
for jury rigging but is there an easier way?

Thanks,
Shaun Van Poecke
14' caper cat
Sydney, Australia

halyard fixing system for 14' catamaran with jib?
 

"imagineero" wrote:
snip
The jib is a bit easier to rig, just goes straight to a horn cleat,
but i cant get nearly enough tension on it, even taking a half turn
and pulling for all im worth. would also be slow to take down.
snip
Thanks,
Shaun Van Poecke
14' caper cat
Sydney, Australia


Garland Gray II wrote:
Not sure I follow your description(s) of the main halyard, but regarding the
jib halyard, a common rig for getting more halyard tension is to cut the
halyard 3 or 4 ft (or less, depending on your rig) above the base of the
mast with the sail raised. Attach the head of a becket block to the now
shortened halyard, and the tail of the halyard to the becket. Reeve the tail
through a cheek block mounted near the base of the mast, then through the
becket block, and you have 3:1 purchase, and not as much halyard to coil.
You could have wire for the halyard, and rope for the tail.

Your description, Garland, is also pretty tough to follow. I got there
in the end though and for those like me who haven't met this setup
before I'll fill in the gaps.

* It can only work for an external halyard.

* Its rigged as Garland described *EXCEPT* YOU DONT REEVE THE TAIL
THROUGH THE BECKET BLOCK UNTIL YOU HAVE HOISTED THE SAIL. 1:1 to hoist
then 3:1 to tension it. {otherwise you'd have *much* more halyard to
coil, not less :-) }

* The only disadvantages I can see is you cant have a stopper knot in
the end of the halyard and you have to reeve 1 mast length less a couple
of feet through the travelling becket block before you can get the
tension on. OTOH the travelling block will stop the halyard pulling
through the masthead sheave so the stopper knot isn't essential and in
an emergency you can always hoist and cleat off 1:1 to save the tiome it
takes to reeve the tail through the block.

I've got a tame skipper with a 22'er who's going to love this idea.
*THANKS*

--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL:
'Stingo' Albacore #1554 - 15' Early 60's, Uffa Fox designed,
All varnished hot moulded wooden racing dinghy.

halyard fixing system for 14' catamaran with jib?
 

imagineero wrote:

I've got a caper cat that is in desperate need of updating. Im hoping
to sail it up the coast of australia, and have ben sailing it 3 times
weekly and updating what needs to be changed bit by bit, cleats,
rigging, shrouds etc etc, the halyards are a pain to me. The main
halyard clips in with a shackle on a bowline to a dinky little d ring
on the mast, then is tensioned with a downhaul rope through a pulley
then back up to a clam cleat. It takes me about 5 minutes to rig the
main on shore, and i'd have no chance of getting it down in a pinch if
i had to out in a big blow.

Yes, I've seen a few cat setups with similar problems and frankly as
coastal dinghy cruiser they scare me s**tless. OK on a big lake or
sailing off a beach with safety cover but you dont want to be 5 miles
out on passage crossing a big bay or estuary and get caught out in a
squall. D. Parker's comment about being able to read the weather
building to the south and getting 20 minutes warning is not confidence
inspiring. Say five minutes of innattention, and 5 minutes of Hmm, is
it headed this way? then 10 minutes of struggling to get the main down
and you are out of time and quite probably swimming. Personally, I'd
like time to check all gear is secure, pop a quick plot on the chart and
get some foul weather gear on. Say 7-8 minutes total. Cut back the
'Hmm, thinking time' a bit and you still need to be able to drop and
stow the main in about three minutes.

The jib is a bit easier to rig, just goes straight to a horn cleat, but
i cant get nearly enough tension on it, even taking a half turn and
pulling for all im worth. would also be slow to take down.

I've commented on Garland's halyard tensioning idea which looks good
elsewhere in this thread. As to being slow to get down, What are you
going to do when its down? All the small cats I've ever seen have no
way of getting to the tack of the jib afloat and if you cant release the
tack, you will have the choice of dropping the jib in the water or of
having it trying to flog itself and you to death. In survival
conditions dropping it in the water and useing it as a drogue may
actually be a good thing, but if you can keep it up and broad reach off
before the squall under jib alone you'd probably be safer. What is it,
20% of your sail area? I'd also look at fitting roller furling. (N.B. I
dont mean roller reefing with a luff extrusion round the foresail. I
just mean a furling drum at the bottom and a swivel at the top on your
existing jib hoisted on a normal halyard with seperate forestay the way
it is now, so you can furl it completely round its own luff wire. full
sail or nothing, you cant reef that way.)


I've been looking around at other cats on the beach, but havent yet
seen anything i'd like. What i want is something thats fast to put up,
but super fast (and single handed, single action) to take down even
under load. I was thinking possibly a snapshackle on the main, but can
these be pulled under heavy loads?

Is the shakle and D ring at the mast head? Ive seen cats with a hook in
halyard lock and they are always a right pain in the a**e. Not a lot
you can do in that case as its designed to let the halyard running down
the mast be slack so as to avoid compression loading the mast. You
*could* try fixing one end of the halyard to the mast head and taking it
through a block that clips onto the head of the sail, through the
masthead sheave and down to the cleat which would reduce the compression
by 50% but you'd have 2x mast length of tail to coil. and you'd still
be compression loading the mast which it may not be designed to take.

On the other hand, from your question about snap shackles I supect the D
ring and shackle are somewhere near the bottom, in which case I'd forget
about using either and fit a highfield lever with the hook upwards on
the mast.
http://www.holtperformance.com/rigging/detail.asp?line=highf
Lifting the handle should give you enough slack to pop the bowline on
the halyard over the hook or pull it off to let the halyard run *without
* letting off the tensioner which I presume goes to the tack of the
mainb sail. If OTOH the tensioner is on the halyard, one of the rachet
type Highfield levers on that page should do the job *IF* you use a very
low stretch halyard, Either wire or a modern synthetic like Marlow V12
vectran.

I doubt you'd get a fully loaded pin type snap shackle to release even
with a lanyard on the pin. The ring clip would bend and pull out of the
pin first. A Witchard trigger release shackle is designed for that sort
of application but you wouldn't want it on the halyard as you have to
stick a spike in to trip it.


The alternative i came up with (and bear with me hear, im from a rock
climbing background) is halyard, coming down the mast, alpine butterfly
tied into it with a D-shackle about 6" before it enters a small pulley
bolted to the mast then back up, thorough the D shackle on the alpine
butterfly, then back down to a clam cleat. This might sound a bit
confusing, and im hopeless at ascii art, so ill just hope you can
picture it and if not then i'll draw a picture. This would give me a
2:1 purchase and be quick to release,plus give me a bit of extra gear
for jury rigging but is there an easier way?

Thats basically Garland's suggested setup but with a shackle instead of
the block. I'd reckon it would be a pain to use on the main and slow to
drop as you need to either undo the shackel or unreeve a whole mast
lenght of tail from the shackle before you drop it as if you let the
shackle head up the mast with the tail through it you should expect to
get a kink or knot in the end jamming the sail halfway down. You also
probably loose 50% of the extra advantage you get going through the
shackle and back to friction and it wont be at all easy to swig up tight.

Thanks,
Shaun Van Poecke
14' caper cat
Sydney, Australia

Lucky B*****D, I'm in the middle of discussing our winter program and
you are about to start your summer season's sailing. For some strange
reason, there is a lack of enthusiasm here for the planned race on New
Year's Day. Don't know why, the tidal Thames hasn't frozen by then in
living memory. May get a little thin ice by Febuary floating down from
above the half tide wear but that take a really cold winter.

--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL:
'Stingo' Albacore #1554 - 15' Early 60's, Uffa Fox designed,
All varnished hot moulded wooden racing dinghy.

halyard fixing system for 14' catamaran with jib?
 

"Ian Malcolm" wrote in message
...
imagineero wrote:

I've got a caper cat that is in desperate need of updating. Im hoping
to sail it up the coast of australia, and have ben sailing it 3 times
weekly and updating what needs to be changed bit by bit, cleats,
rigging, shrouds etc etc, the halyards are a pain to me. The main
halyard clips in with a shackle on a bowline to a dinky little d ring
on the mast, then is tensioned with a downhaul rope through a pulley
then back up to a clam cleat. It takes me about 5 minutes to rig the
main on shore, and i'd have no chance of getting it down in a pinch if
i had to out in a big blow.

Yes, I've seen a few cat setups with similar problems and frankly as
coastal dinghy cruiser they scare me s**tless. OK on a big lake or
sailing off a beach with safety cover but you dont want to be 5 miles out
on passage crossing a big bay or estuary and get caught out in a squall.
D. Parker's comment about being able to read the weather building to the
south and getting 20 minutes warning is not confidence inspiring. Say
five minutes of innattention, and 5 minutes of Hmm, is it headed this way?
then 10 minutes of struggling to get the main down and you are out of time
and quite probably swimming. Personally, I'd like time to check all gear
is secure, pop a quick plot on the chart and get some foul weather gear
on. Say 7-8 minutes total. Cut back the 'Hmm, thinking time' a bit and
you still need to be able to drop and stow the main in about three
minutes.


Snip

Sorry, you may have missed the sarcasm in my previous post.

He wont need the 5 minutes of "hmm, is it headed this way". If your off the
coast of NSW and to the south you see a big MoFo Anvil. Its coming your way!
He will already be wearing a wet suit so he shouldnt need time to change :)

There was a guy some years ago who sailed the east coast on the hobie. But
he used a support vessel to help along the way. I forget his name. But from
memory he had all sorts of Australian titles under his belt. Another reader
may be able to enlighten us further.

DP

halyard fixing system for 14' catamaran with jib?
 

"Ian Malcolm" wrote in message
...

snip
Your description, Garland, is also pretty tough to follow. I got there in
the end though and for those like me who haven't met this setup before
I'll fill in the gaps.

I type slow so tried to be brief


* It can only work for an external halyard.

True, but I hadn't considered internal halyards on this small a boat. Always
possible though.

* Its rigged as Garland described *EXCEPT* YOU DONT REEVE THE TAIL THROUGH
THE BECKET BLOCK UNTIL YOU HAVE HOISTED THE SAIL. 1:1 to hoist then 3:1 to
tension it. {otherwise you'd have *much* more halyard to coil, not less
:-) }

Well, you can't really reeve it before you hoist unless you are real tall !
But one other option is to just use a horn cleat as the turning "block" at
the base of the mast.(And then cleat off on the same cleat) Then the
halyard tail can be left reeved in the block. You just unhook the halyard
from under the horn when you are ready to lower. Just more friction than
using a block,.

I sailed a Cal 20 once that implemented this system very simply. There was a
flat oval bronze casting with a rounded flange on one side as part of the
casting, and a hole in each end This was used instead of the becket block I
have described, and the tail of the halyard was looped over this flange.
Similarly, the cleat at the base of the mast had a rounded surface under the
lowerhorn. Again, more friction, but this was very quick and effective, and
"wasted" a lot of halyard tail.


* The only disadvantages I can see is you cant have a stopper knot in the
end of the halyard and you have to reeve 1 mast length less a couple of
feet through the travelling becket block before you can get the tension
on. OTOH the travelling block will stop the halyard pulling through the
masthead sheave so the stopper knot isn't essential and in an emergency
you can always hoist and cleat off 1:1 to save the tiome it takes to reeve
the tail through the block.

I've got a tame skipper with a 22'er who's going to love this idea.
*THANKS*

I like your term "travelling block"

--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL:
'Stingo' Albacore #1554 - 15' Early 60's, Uffa Fox designed,
All varnished hot moulded wooden racing dinghy.

halyard fixing system for 14' catamaran with jib?
 

d parker wrote:

"Ian Malcolm" wrote:
snip
D. Parker's comment about being able to read the weather building to the
south and getting 20 minutes warning is not confidence inspiring. Say
five minutes of innattention, and 5 minutes of Hmm, is it headed this way?
then 10 minutes of struggling to get the main down and you are out of time
and quite probably swimming. Personally, I'd like time to check all gear
is secure, pop a quick plot on the chart and get some foul weather gear
on. Say 7-8 minutes total. Cut back the 'Hmm, thinking time' a bit and
you still need to be able to drop and stow the main in about three
minutes.

Snip

Sorry, you may have missed the sarcasm in my previous post.
Probably. Sarcasm is hard to do well on usenet. Too many posters who's
version of english is different to one's own. If you are subtle, most
miss it and if not you get flamed for being gratuitously offensive. :-)

He wont need the 5 minutes of "hmm, is it headed this way". If your off the
coast of NSW and to the south you see a big MoFo Anvil. Its coming your way!
Local knowlage trumps general experiance anytime.

He will already be wearing a wet suit so he shouldnt need time to change :)
Been caught out in a hail storm in a wetsuit? I frequently wear a
wetsuit when dinghy cruising. (Not the most comfortable sailing gear if
you aren't planning on going in, but without one, spring water temps and
a little wind chill afterwards wont give you much chance if you do go in
and have 10 more miles to do till you reach shelter). I *WANT* that set
of offshore yachting foulies rolled up under the foredeck on before the
1/2" to 1" hailstones start hitting me. Of course, we've got weather
and you've got a climate VBG

There was a guy some years ago who sailed the east coast on the hobie. But
he used a support vessel to help along the way. I forget his name. But from
memory he had all sorts of Australian titles under his belt. Another reader
may be able to enlighten us further.

DP
Sounds interesting.

--
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (NEWSGROUP REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & 32K emails -- NUL:
'Stingo' Albacore #1554 - 15' Early 60's, Uffa Fox designed,
All varnished hot moulded wooden racing dinghy.

halyard fixing system for 14' catamaran with jib?
 

Hi all,
Thanks for all the great info... My reasoning for being able to get the
sail down quickly is that simpler is generally better in my view. If i
can smoothly get the main down in a minute or two that would make
things a lot easier for beaching, ditto for rigging underway. If
someone else happens to be sailing with me and i go overboard then they
are much more likely to be able to remember a simple one handed one
action instruction than something more complex, especially in a
panicked emergency situation.

My boat is small, but it has a lot more bouyancy than most 14' cats.
The previous owner sailed it sydney to brisbane, and a lot of people in
queensland use them for sailing around the islands up there
(whitsundays especially). Jesse Martin sailed one with his brother and
father from brisbane to cape york. There is flotation for about 6
adults, or 4 people with camping gear and food for 4 days, or one
person and _lots_ of stuff. There is an outboard bracket on the back,
and my one has a 5hp on it which pushes it along at a fair clip. Its
handy having the little outboard on there when the wind is tricky or
absent, or for 'oh Sh**' situations, but i think i'd get a lot more
utility out of it if i could quickly raise/lower the sails. I cant
keep it pointed into the wind for more than about 5 seconds when im on
it alone, which is nowhere near enough time to throw in an anchor,
start the outboard, pickup a mooring or just pick my nose. As it is
with the pointless halyard system i've got it takes about 10 minutes to
raise/lower the sails. putting a reef in is trickier because reefing
was added after the fact and was not very well implemented.

My jib is about 40%, and unlike a lot of cats there is a front cross
member and two forestays with the jib being on its own wire luff.
While you could theoretically remove the jib on the water i wouldnt
want to try it in anything other than a dead flat calm day ;-) I've
look at these simple furling systems on hobie 14 turbos and owners have
all comented favourably on the utility of it. I can add this to my
boat for under AU$200 so it looks pretty worthwhile. The main has one
of those 'locking wire' type fittings at the masthead, but the current
halyard is rope so i get no utility from it. I've thought of going for
one of the locking wire types, and hadnt considered the reduced
compression load on the mast which is a good point. My mast has
spreaders which helps, but im sure it was designed originally not to
have the extra load of the halyard going to the step. Thinking about
it more though, wouldnt the stress load on the mast be the same....?
It seems to me that the total load would be equal, if it was fized at
the mast head then it would be 100% there, or if it want through a
block and back to the bottom then it would be the same load but half at
the top, half at the bottowm. Now that i think about it more, it makes
pretty good sense having the locking wire type, they can be tricky to
hoist, but are fast to undo..... the question is though; can you reef
with this type of system? is it possible to have multiple locks swaged
onto the wire? The main halyward is tensioned by downhaul rather than
halyard tension.

It looks like roller furling for the jib, and some other (preferably
fast simple) means of fixing the main halyard. I'm going to employ the
travelling block on the downhaul, i've only got 1:1 gong to a clam
cleat and i can never get enough tension on it... i end up having to
sit on the mast while trying to lock the downhaul at the same time...
can be amusing for bystanders if the mast is slippery ;-) As an aside
is there anything that can be done to make the luff slide easier up the
mast? dry lubricants or such?

thanks for all the excellent comments,
Shaun

halyard fixing system for 14' catamaran with jib?
 

imagineero wrote:
snip...
It looks like roller furling for the jib, and some other (preferably
fast simple) means of fixing the main halyard. I'm going to employ the
travelling block on the downhaul, i've only got 1:1 gong to a clam
cleat and i can never get enough tension on it... i end up having to
sit on the mast while trying to lock the downhaul at the same time...
can be amusing for bystanders if the mast is slippery ;-) As an aside
is there anything that can be done to make the luff slide easier up the
mast? dry lubricants or such?

thanks for all the excellent comments,
Shaun


I have roller furling on my Sandpiper 565 (similar to Sailfish 18),and
just this spring, I had a local sailmaker change my main over to slides
(slugs) from the 'bolt rope' system. I bought the lubriant recommended
by my local boat supply store.
I plan to have my main halyard, line to douse main, & cunningham all
lead back into the cockpit to allow for easier control while singlehanded.