Engines - Sailboat inboards
 

This Scanmar link is an interesting story about an inboard engine
replacement.

With the cost of inboards on sailboats it kind of makes me wonder what
is the largest outboard put on the largest sailboat and how it was
configured and located. I have seen a 25HP on a 30ft Grampian
(transom mount) when the A4 gave=up.

I wonder how an outboard could be used on a larger sailboat somewhere
other than the Transom, possibly in a specially designed lazzerette...

http://www.scanmar-yachts.com/docs/I...aintenance.pdf

http://www.scanmar-yachts.com/NewEngineInstall.htm

Rebuild or Replace; or, How To Throw Good Money After Bad

http://www.scanmar-yachts.com/NewEngineInstall2.htm

Installing the New Yanmar

http://www.btri.com/boat/index.html
"During the Fall of 2000 and Spring of 2001 I replaced my Farymann
K30M with a Yanmar 1GM10. I took pictures along the way. In these
pages I will show you how I did it, and tell you about the decisions
made and the lessons learned. This is not a how-to manual, but you may
get some ideas for your engine installation, or learn something about
the pitfalls of such a project."

"The first decision: whether or not to do it at all. An engine upgrade
in an older boat will cost a substantial portion of the boats value.
You will never get all this money back when you sell the boat. You
will also spend much more than the cost of the engine. In my case the
engine was about $4600.00 and the aditional gear was another
$1500.00."

Excellent with lots of images.......XXXXXXXXXXXX

http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/Marine_exhaust.htm

Guidelines for evaluating and installing wet exhausts

http://www.ketogroup.com/press/Soundproofing%203.pdf

article on soundproofing is here (500 kb pdf download)

http://www.pocketcruisers.com/art_soundreduction.html
Engine Compartment Soundproofing
By Nigel Charlesworth JR CO26 #176 (UK)

http://www.solopublications.com/sailcol.htm0
Advice About The Outboard Well

http://www.docksidereports.com/sail_...uxiliaries.htm

Sail Boat Auxiliaries
And Why They Don't Last as Long as They Should
by David Pascoe

'So there you have yet another reason why I say that sail boat engines
are usually poorly installed and why they often don't last as long as
they should."

"Factors That Affect Diesel Auxiliary Engine Life

Under ideal circumstances, sail boat diesel auxiliary engines should
last the life of the boat. That they rarely do is usually the result
of two things: (1) Failure to maintain properly and, (2) faulty
exhaust system installation."

Good work.
At this time I am sailing without an engine. I just took my 1 GM Yanmar
(1982) out of the boat. This engine was properly maintained every year. It
was rebuild last year by an experienced mechanic. This year, after about 50
hours of total running time, the engine stopped working. Now the engine is
apart in three boxes. The crank shaft is broken in two. Now I have to make
the decision to install a new engine or not. In Canada the basic cost of a
10 GM Yanmar is $6600.00 plus 15% HST = $7590.00 CDN plus installation. The
other option would be to install an outboard engine on the transom. The
last one is to sell the boat (a 27 feet Mirage 1982) without an engine and
buy a pre - owned 30 feet sailboat.

"Mic" wrote in message
...
This Scanmar link is an interesting story about an inboard engine
replacement.

With the cost of inboards on sailboats it kind of makes me wonder what
is the largest outboard put on the largest sailboat and how it was
configured and located. I have seen a 25HP on a 30ft Grampian
(transom mount) when the A4 gave=up.

I wonder how an outboard could be used on a larger sailboat somewhere
other than the Transom, possibly in a specially designed lazzerette...

http://www.scanmar-yachts.com/docs/I...aintenance.pdf

http://www.scanmar-yachts.com/NewEngineInstall.htm

Rebuild or Replace; or, How To Throw Good Money After Bad

http://www.scanmar-yachts.com/NewEngineInstall2.htm

Installing the New Yanmar

http://www.btri.com/boat/index.html
"During the Fall of 2000 and Spring of 2001 I replaced my Farymann
K30M with a Yanmar 1GM10. I took pictures along the way. In these
pages I will show you how I did it, and tell you about the decisions
made and the lessons learned. This is not a how-to manual, but you may
get some ideas for your engine installation, or learn something about
the pitfalls of such a project."

"The first decision: whether or not to do it at all. An engine upgrade
in an older boat will cost a substantial portion of the boats value.
You will never get all this money back when you sell the boat. You
will also spend much more than the cost of the engine. In my case the
engine was about $4600.00 and the aditional gear was another
$1500.00."

Excellent with lots of images.......XXXXXXXXXXXX

http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/Marine_exhaust.htm

Guidelines for evaluating and installing wet exhausts

http://www.ketogroup.com/press/Soundproofing%203.pdf

article on soundproofing is here (500 kb pdf download)

http://www.pocketcruisers.com/art_soundreduction.html
Engine Compartment Soundproofing
By Nigel Charlesworth JR CO26 #176 (UK)

http://www.solopublications.com/sailcol.htm0
Advice About The Outboard Well

http://www.docksidereports.com/sail_...uxiliaries.htm

Sail Boat Auxiliaries
And Why They Don't Last as Long as They Should
by David Pascoe

'So there you have yet another reason why I say that sail boat engines
are usually poorly installed and why they often don't last as long as
they should."

"Factors That Affect Diesel Auxiliary Engine Life

Under ideal circumstances, sail boat diesel auxiliary engines should
last the life of the boat. That they rarely do is usually the result
of two things: (1) Failure to maintain properly and, (2) faulty
exhaust system installation."

Dennis, I am just starting to research electric motors (for
sailboats). What I have read sounds interesting.
evparts.com is where I'm starting.

I will possibly be replacing my A4 in time.



On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 08:02:20 GMT, "Denis Marier"
wrote:

Good work.
At this time I am sailing without an engine. I just took my 1 GM Yanmar
(1982) out of the boat. This engine was properly maintained every year. It
was rebuild last year by an experienced mechanic. This year, after about 50
hours of total running time, the engine stopped working. Now the engine is
apart in three boxes. The crank shaft is broken in two. Now I have to make
the decision to install a new engine or not. In Canada the basic cost of a
10 GM Yanmar is $6600.00 plus 15% HST = $7590.00 CDN plus installation. The
other option would be to install an outboard engine on the transom. The
last one is to sell the boat (a 27 feet Mirage 1982) without an engine and
buy a pre - owned 30 feet sailboat.

"Mic" wrote in message
...
This Scanmar link is an interesting story about an inboard engine
replacement.

With the cost of inboards on sailboats it kind of makes me wonder what
is the largest outboard put on the largest sailboat and how it was
configured and located. I have seen a 25HP on a 30ft Grampian
(transom mount) when the A4 gave=up.

I wonder how an outboard could be used on a larger sailboat somewhere
other than the Transom, possibly in a specially designed lazzerette...

http://www.scanmar-yachts.com/docs/I...aintenance.pdf

http://www.scanmar-yachts.com/NewEngineInstall.htm

Rebuild or Replace; or, How To Throw Good Money After Bad

http://www.scanmar-yachts.com/NewEngineInstall2.htm

Installing the New Yanmar

http://www.btri.com/boat/index.html
"During the Fall of 2000 and Spring of 2001 I replaced my Farymann
K30M with a Yanmar 1GM10. I took pictures along the way. In these
pages I will show you how I did it, and tell you about the decisions
made and the lessons learned. This is not a how-to manual, but you may
get some ideas for your engine installation, or learn something about
the pitfalls of such a project."

"The first decision: whether or not to do it at all. An engine upgrade
in an older boat will cost a substantial portion of the boats value.
You will never get all this money back when you sell the boat. You
will also spend much more than the cost of the engine. In my case the
engine was about $4600.00 and the aditional gear was another
$1500.00."

Excellent with lots of images.......XXXXXXXXXXXX

http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/Marine_exhaust.htm

Guidelines for evaluating and installing wet exhausts

http://www.ketogroup.com/press/Soundproofing%203.pdf

article on soundproofing is here (500 kb pdf download)

http://www.pocketcruisers.com/art_soundreduction.html
Engine Compartment Soundproofing
By Nigel Charlesworth JR CO26 #176 (UK)

http://www.solopublications.com/sailcol.htm0
Advice About The Outboard Well

http://www.docksidereports.com/sail_...uxiliaries.htm

Sail Boat Auxiliaries
And Why They Don't Last as Long as They Should
by David Pascoe

'So there you have yet another reason why I say that sail boat engines
are usually poorly installed and why they often don't last as long as
they should."

"Factors That Affect Diesel Auxiliary Engine Life

Under ideal circumstances, sail boat diesel auxiliary engines should
last the life of the boat. That they rarely do is usually the result
of two things: (1) Failure to maintain properly and, (2) faulty
exhaust system installation."

My 28' S2 came with a Yanmar 1GM but it was an older one with only 6.5
hp output. Although it was the most reliable engine I had ever seen
and ALWAYS started, I had been in a couple spots where I was concerned
about not having enough power. I looked all over the internet for
about a year and finally found a used Yanmar 2GM that was being sold.
I took the chance that either it was in good shape or I could rebuild
it and bought it and shipped it here. It was in Seattle and I am in
Florida so shipping cost nearly $1000.
One it was here, I started it and checked it out and it seemed in good
shape. Rated at 13 hp with a heast exchanger for cooling it looked to
be a good direct replacement for the 1GM after looking over the
pyhiscal dimensions in the service manual.
The boat was up on jack stands in my back yard with no way to get any
sort of hoist around the boat to remove the old or put in a new engine.
Nevertheless, I was amazed at how easy it was to remove the old
engine. In no time at all, I had it sitting in the cabin looking
surprised wondering how I managed to do it by myself.
I enlisted two friends to get the old engine to the ground and the new
one in the boat. We put a ladder against the boat and manhandled the
old engine up into teh cockpit and up onto the cockpit sides. We tied
a rope to it and slid it down against 2x4s placed against the ladder.
The much heavier new engine was bolted to a piece of plywood and then
using a rope around one of the winches we pulled it up into teh
cockpit. From there we slid it on 2x4s into teh cabin. I then slid it
back into the 1/4 berth and then down into place by myself. IT DIDNT
FIT. The new engine mounts were too thick. The hardest part of the
entire operation was for me to use my sabre saw to cut through the wood
and glass engine mounts to make it fit. I went through 8 saw blades.
It lined up very well although I did use a feeler guage. It started
and ran well but soon stopped pumping raw water from a 5 gal bucket I
had in the cabin. Finally, I traced the problem to a buildup of salt
and corrosion in the output of the heat exchanger and fixed it.
I am very happy with my new (old) engine and have extensively cruised
with it. My boat now gets up to over 6 kts easily whereas before I was
lucky to get over 5 kts. This has really improved my cruising ability
because I can go for days running at 5 kts when ther is no wind.
My experience seems to show that replacing an engine may be overrated
in terms of difficulty and cost. BTW, I am no mechanic, just stubborn.

I like your approach. However, Since I ended up with a broken crankshaft
on the 1 GM I am still apprehensive of buying used 2GM.
You are saying that the shipping cost you nearly $1000.00 USD can you tell
the cost of the engine. I starting to believe that (as you have stated)
replacing a diesel engine is overrated in terms of difficulty and cost.
The situation in this neck of the wood is that few people know about diesel
engine.
They seldom breakdown and when they do we have to call an experience
mechanic.
Here our diesel mechanics are very busy and do not come exactly after you
call them.
As in Seinfeld "the soup nazi" we here have the opposite for diesel engine
repair.

wrote in message
oups.com...
My 28' S2 came with a Yanmar 1GM but it was an older one with only 6.5
hp output. Although it was the most reliable engine I had ever seen
and ALWAYS started, I had been in a couple spots where I was concerned
about not having enough power. I looked all over the internet for
about a year and finally found a used Yanmar 2GM that was being sold.
I took the chance that either it was in good shape or I could rebuild
it and bought it and shipped it here. It was in Seattle and I am in
Florida so shipping cost nearly $1000.
One it was here, I started it and checked it out and it seemed in good
shape. Rated at 13 hp with a heast exchanger for cooling it looked to
be a good direct replacement for the 1GM after looking over the
pyhiscal dimensions in the service manual.
The boat was up on jack stands in my back yard with no way to get any
sort of hoist around the boat to remove the old or put in a new engine.
Nevertheless, I was amazed at how easy it was to remove the old
engine. In no time at all, I had it sitting in the cabin looking
surprised wondering how I managed to do it by myself.
I enlisted two friends to get the old engine to the ground and the new
one in the boat. We put a ladder against the boat and manhandled the
old engine up into teh cockpit and up onto the cockpit sides. We tied
a rope to it and slid it down against 2x4s placed against the ladder.
The much heavier new engine was bolted to a piece of plywood and then
using a rope around one of the winches we pulled it up into teh
cockpit. From there we slid it on 2x4s into teh cabin. I then slid it
back into the 1/4 berth and then down into place by myself. IT DIDNT
FIT. The new engine mounts were too thick. The hardest part of the
entire operation was for me to use my sabre saw to cut through the wood
and glass engine mounts to make it fit. I went through 8 saw blades.
It lined up very well although I did use a feeler guage. It started
and ran well but soon stopped pumping raw water from a 5 gal bucket I
had in the cabin. Finally, I traced the problem to a buildup of salt
and corrosion in the output of the heat exchanger and fixed it.
I am very happy with my new (old) engine and have extensively cruised
with it. My boat now gets up to over 6 kts easily whereas before I was
lucky to get over 5 kts. This has really improved my cruising ability
because I can go for days running at 5 kts when ther is no wind.
My experience seems to show that replacing an engine may be overrated
in terms of difficulty and cost. BTW, I am no mechanic, just stubborn.

I got the engine for $2000 "as is" and it turned out to be in good
shape although I expected it to be worse.
When I sold the 1 GM, I really didnt know what it was worth and didnt
want oto hassle with people getting it and then for one reason or
another being unhappy so I advetised it on the internet for $450. My
phone rang like crazy and a guy drove all the way from New Orleans (450
miles) to get it.
Maybe I just got lucky.
We also have no diesel repair places nearby so I expected to have to
sorta "shade tree" it . Its only a diesel, not rocket science. (Gawd,
how many times have I said stuff like that and been wrong)

Thanks for the information.
I'll search the net for one used 2 GM.


wrote in message
oups.com...
I got the engine for $2000 "as is" and it turned out to be in good
shape although I expected it to be worse.
When I sold the 1 GM, I really didnt know what it was worth and didnt
want oto hassle with people getting it and then for one reason or
another being unhappy so I advetised it on the internet for $450. My
phone rang like crazy and a guy drove all the way from New Orleans (450
miles) to get it.
Maybe I just got lucky.
We also have no diesel repair places nearby so I expected to have to
sorta "shade tree" it . Its only a diesel, not rocket science. (Gawd,
how many times have I said stuff like that and been wrong)

On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 16:07:59 GMT, "Denis Marier"
wrote:

Thanks for the information.
I'll search the net for one used 2 GM.

The 2 GM is "fresh water cooled" and the 1GM is raw water cooled...

fresh water cooled = closed cooling system, heat exchange system

raw water cooled = lake or sea water cooled and usually engine temp is
cooler

Mic wrote:
On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 16:07:59 GMT, "Denis Marier"
wrote:


Thanks for the information.
I'll search the net for one used 2 GM.


The 2 GM is "fresh water cooled" and the 1GM is raw water cooled...

I believe both fresh and raw versions of both were built. Its true
that most 1GM's are raw, but the 2GM has many of both types. The
engine name has an "F" in it (as in 2GM20F) it is fresh water cooled,
i.e. it has a heat exchanger.

Very interesting links.
Answering your first question, but not really answering it because I'm sure
your question is regarding monohulls, but the Gold Coast 65 ft catamarans
had twin 50 hp or more on a sled between the hulls that could be raised.
Catamarans can deal with the negatives of outboards--the esthetics and being
able to locate them further forward. Nice to pull the prop etc. out of the
water.
But I recall a comment from someone that his, say 25 footer (mono),
performed better under power with an outboard than a sister ship w/ inboard.
Most likely the inboard was compromised w/ a small prop for less drag under
sail.

"Mic" wrote in message
...
This Scanmar link is an interesting story about an inboard engine
replacement.

With the cost of inboards on sailboats it kind of makes me wonder what
is the largest outboard put on the largest sailboat and how it was
configured and located. I have seen a 25HP on a 30ft Grampian
(transom mount) when the A4 gave=up.

I wonder how an outboard could be used on a larger sailboat somewhere
other than the Transom, possibly in a specially designed lazzerette...

http://www.scanmar-yachts.com/docs/I...aintenance.pdf

http://www.scanmar-yachts.com/NewEngineInstall.htm

Rebuild or Replace; or, How To Throw Good Money After Bad

http://www.scanmar-yachts.com/NewEngineInstall2.htm

Installing the New Yanmar

http://www.btri.com/boat/index.html
"During the Fall of 2000 and Spring of 2001 I replaced my Farymann
K30M with a Yanmar 1GM10. I took pictures along the way. In these
pages I will show you how I did it, and tell you about the decisions
made and the lessons learned. This is not a how-to manual, but you may
get some ideas for your engine installation, or learn something about
the pitfalls of such a project."

"The first decision: whether or not to do it at all. An engine upgrade
in an older boat will cost a substantial portion of the boats value.
You will never get all this money back when you sell the boat. You
will also spend much more than the cost of the engine. In my case the
engine was about $4600.00 and the aditional gear was another
$1500.00."

Excellent with lots of images.......XXXXXXXXXXXX

http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/Marine_exhaust.htm

Guidelines for evaluating and installing wet exhausts

http://www.ketogroup.com/press/Soundproofing%203.pdf

article on soundproofing is here (500 kb pdf download)

http://www.pocketcruisers.com/art_soundreduction.html
Engine Compartment Soundproofing
By Nigel Charlesworth JR CO26 #176 (UK)

http://www.solopublications.com/sailcol.htm0
Advice About The Outboard Well

http://www.docksidereports.com/sail_...uxiliaries.htm

Sail Boat Auxiliaries
And Why They Don't Last as Long as They Should
by David Pascoe

'So there you have yet another reason why I say that sail boat engines
are usually poorly installed and why they often don't last as long as
they should."

"Factors That Affect Diesel Auxiliary Engine Life

Under ideal circumstances, sail boat diesel auxiliary engines should
last the life of the boat. That they rarely do is usually the result
of two things: (1) Failure to maintain properly and, (2) faulty
exhaust system installation."

The PDQ 36 is a catamaran that was offered with either twin 10 HP
outboards, or twin Yanmar 2GM20's with saildrives (18HP). We chose
the diesel version, but about 2/3 were built with the outboards.
Actually, for those that had a choice, it was probably more like a
60/40 split.

The outboard versions are faster sailers because the the outboards can
be raised to eliminate drag, they weigh about 600 pounds less (the
actual difference is even larger because the diesel version got a lot
heavier fittings all around), and the weight distribution is better
with the outboards mounted a bit forward of the diesels. The
outboards are certainly cheaper initially, and have the maintenance
advantage of being easily removed. Last year we watched a sistership
on the next mooring replace an engine in an afternoon.

On the other side of the equation, although my diesels sail a knot
slower (its still faster than most monohulls) it powers about a knot
faster. Although the 4-stroke outboards are pretty quiet at low
rpm's, at wot they are very noisy and there's no easy way to
soundproof them. Properly maintained, the diesels should last 4000
hours or more, but the outboards tend to cook in 1000 to 1500 hours.

The final factor for us was the need to generate power - we would have
had to install a genset to supply our needs, and that tended to even
out some of the issues. I've thought about it a lot over the years -
if I had to do it again I might live without the freezer, reduce the
electrical needs, add some wind and wind, and get by with a small
Honda genset and the outboards. But then I talk to sisterships who
carry two Honda's, and three outboards and I'm happy I have the diesels.

One more thing -
With the current cost of fuel, the diesel has an added advantage.
Powering 100 hours a year, diesel would cost about $250 a year.
Powering the same distance with gas, however, will cost more like $800
at today's prices. If your need is to power out of the slip, the
outboards are fine. But a trip down the ICW will cost a lot with gas.

Correct, the earlier 2 GM are raw water cool.
Both of my friend have 1982 Yanmar 2 GM that are raw water cool.
BTW. my raw water cool 1982, 1 GM Yanmar was used in sea water all these
years. That is from May to October of every year and winterized with
antifreeze. Now it is completely disassemble and it does not show signs of
rust damages.
The yearly replacement of the internal zinc anodes in the engine and on the
propeller shaft may have something to do with it.
The Yanmar International Rep. stated that the 1 GM raw water cool Yanmar
(6.5 HP) was introduced for use in fresh water mainly the great Lakes. The
more recent 10 GM Yanmar is designed to produce 10 HP at 3300 RPM's.
Correct me if I am wrong but I hear that this 10 GM may be on its way out to
be replaced by the new fresh water cool Yanmar 2YM15 producing 13 HP at 3400
RPM's. Other manufacturers are rating their engine at 3000 RPM. Westerbeke
are rating their 12 C, 12 HP at 3000 RPM.

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Mic wrote:
On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 16:07:59 GMT, "Denis Marier"
wrote:


Thanks for the information.
I'll search the net for one used 2 GM.


The 2 GM is "fresh water cooled" and the 1GM is raw water cooled...

I believe both fresh and raw versions of both were built. Its true
that most 1GM's are raw, but the 2GM has many of both types. The
engine name has an "F" in it (as in 2GM20F) it is fresh water cooled,
i.e. it has a heat exchanger.

Interesting, I always wondered why they made such a small engine for
use on boats of this size.

It seems like the YM's are destined to replace all of the GM's, but I
think the 1GM is still being sold.

The GM and YM series (and others) are rated at or about 3600 RPM.
I've always felt that 3000 is a reasonable cruising rev for my 2GM's,
but a friend who repowered with a 3YM says that everyone has told him
to run all day at 3400 to 3600.


Denis Marier wrote:
Correct, the earlier 2 GM are raw water cool.
Both of my friend have 1982 Yanmar 2 GM that are raw water cool.
BTW. my raw water cool 1982, 1 GM Yanmar was used in sea water all these
years. That is from May to October of every year and winterized with
antifreeze. Now it is completely disassemble and it does not show signs of
rust damages.
The yearly replacement of the internal zinc anodes in the engine and on the
propeller shaft may have something to do with it.
The Yanmar International Rep. stated that the 1 GM raw water cool Yanmar
(6.5 HP) was introduced for use in fresh water mainly the great Lakes. The
more recent 10 GM Yanmar is designed to produce 10 HP at 3300 RPM's.
Correct me if I am wrong but I hear that this 10 GM may be on its way out to
be replaced by the new fresh water cool Yanmar 2YM15 producing 13 HP at 3400
RPM's. Other manufacturers are rating their engine at 3000 RPM. Westerbeke
are rating their 12 C, 12 HP at 3000 RPM.

Yes, the 10GM are been sold. What I hear is they will not issue working
orders to produce more 10GM. The difference in price is $6600.00 CAD for
the 10GM and $7200.00 CAD for the 2YM15.
If someone shows up with a large blanket order for the 10GM they may change
their production. I do have any proof of that but some people stated that
they were quoted $6500.00 CAD for one 2YM15. At this time, the lowest I
got was $7200.00 CAD.

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
It seems like the YM's are destined to replace all of the GM's, but I
think the 1GM is still being sold.

The GM and YM series (and others) are rated at or about 3600 RPM.
I've always felt that 3000 is a reasonable cruising rev for my 2GM's,
but a friend who repowered with a 3YM says that everyone has told him
to run all day at 3400 to 3600.


Denis Marier wrote:
Correct, the earlier 2 GM are raw water cool.
Both of my friend have 1982 Yanmar 2 GM that are raw water cool.
BTW. my raw water cool 1982, 1 GM Yanmar was used in sea water all these
years. That is from May to October of every year and winterized with
antifreeze. Now it is completely disassemble and it does not show
signs of
rust damages.
The yearly replacement of the internal zinc anodes in the engine and on
the
propeller shaft may have something to do with it.
The Yanmar International Rep. stated that the 1 GM raw water cool Yanmar
(6.5 HP) was introduced for use in fresh water mainly the great Lakes.
The
more recent 10 GM Yanmar is designed to produce 10 HP at 3300 RPM's.
Correct me if I am wrong but I hear that this 10 GM may be on its way
out to
be replaced by the new fresh water cool Yanmar 2YM15 producing 13 HP at
3400
RPM's. Other manufacturers are rating their engine at 3000 RPM.
Westerbeke
are rating their 12 C, 12 HP at 3000 RPM.