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Entering but not breaking
I went to my boat today to tie up for any surge from Katrina and found
for the second time that kids have been aboard smoking pot. They do not steal anything or do any damage but they do leave butts and ashes. This time one left a T-shirt which could be used to ID them if I was really interested. The first time I think they got aboard by me leaving the combo lock unlocked (you have to spin the tumblers and I forget). This time I think they actually removed the hasp but carefully replaced the screws when they left. Security at the dock is minimal and would be difficult to enforce. I do not want to get them in trouble for the pot smoking and do not really want to get them in trouble for using my boat while doing no damage. However, they could get hurt being stoned and stupid so I want them to never come back. I left two notes for them telling to leave my boat but I do not think they will see them because they do not turn on any lights. I'll replace the lock and hasp tomorrow but wonder if anyone else has any suggestions for a way to warn them without hurting them. |
Peggie:
I did call the sherriff. He was very unenthusiastic although they did offer to send someone by to look over the boat now and then. I'll leave it to the law to do the hurtin. I just want to scare em away but if the sherrif wants to gather more info and prosecute, I'll help. Right now the sherrif dept is sorta busy preparing for a storm so I guess this has low priority and I dont blame em. |
Try a google search on opening combo locks. For the person with criminal
intent, it apparently is quite easy to break the combo --- especially when there is lots of time for a person to spend working the lock. The "What's Yours is Mine" group has probably already written the combo on your dock box. I agree with the previous post, the situation will likely get worse. If it were my situation, I'd look for a low key, low visibility way of improving security on my boat. Btw, a few months ago, I discovered that the pivot that the lock attaches to on the hasp on my companionway could be merely unscrewed even while locked, a condition I immediately corrected. J wrote in news:1125182804.419374.51570 @g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: ... that kids have been aboard smoking pot... ... the combo lock .... |
I s'pose I am naive and have never had my boat in an area where I
worried about crime. Even the idea of having to lock my boat seems weird but I will improve security. |
are you the ones who used to smoke pot back in the 60's? my how times
have changed. |
bob wrote:
are you the ones who used to smoke pot back in the 60's? my how times have changed. That's the problem... That we did it then has become an excuse for "we can't tell you not to do it." It doesn't matter what we did then....we did a whole bunch of things we were lucky to survive and/or stay out of jail for doing. But somehow, we seem to have conveniently forgotten that although we did all those things, society didn't condone 'em then. So it's become "hypocrasy" to refuse to condone 'em now. The REAL hypocracy is in pretending to have grown up into responsible adults, yet refusing to define right and wrong, then accepting behavior from kids we KNOW to be wrong, and THEN protecting 'em from the consequences of their actions. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detai...=400&group=327 |
no offense peggie but your generation has really screwed up the kids
today. the statistics i read make me sick to my stomach. nothing personal but my god, what the baby boomers have done to this society .......... |
bob wrote:
no offense peggie but your generation has really screwed up the kids today. the statistics i read make me sick to my stomach. nothing personal but my god, what the baby boomers have done to this society I hate to give away my age, but it wasn't MY generation...the Boomers came after me. And I agree: my god, what the baby boomers have done to this society! THEY were the ones who chose to let daycare warehouse their kids instead of raising 'em themselves...their kids have made the same choice...and now we have a third generation of "warehoused" kids coming up who've had no real "raising," and who are so desperate for any real attention--postive OR negative--from adults that they'll even shoot their schoolmates and teachers to get it. I can do 20 minutes without barely even pausing for breath on what I believe to be the underlying causes and who is to blame...but this isn't the place, so I'll tiptoe quietly out now... -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detai...=400&group=327 |
I am not interested in ruining some kids life just cuz he thinks my
boat is a good place to have a joint with his girlfriend. You need to have a sense of proportion about things. They have been careful not to destroy anything and they havent taken anything. So, it seems to me as if they might be ok kids but simply have poor judgement. Pressing charges would cause far more damage to society than good as long as I can get them to stay off my boat. |
Peggie Hall wrote:
I hate to give away my age, but it wasn't MY generation...the Boomers came after me. And I agree: my god, what the baby boomers have done to this society! THEY were the ones who chose to let daycare warehouse their kids instead of raising 'em themselves...their kids have made the same choice...and now we have a third generation of "warehoused" kids coming up who've had no real "raising," and who are so desperate for any real attention--postive OR negative--from adults that they'll even shoot their schoolmates and teachers to get it. "it's not MY fault, it's someone else..." how fscking lame nice cop out Peggie. moral high ground you do not have. if it takes an entire village to raise a child, what part did you play or are you playing in the creation/maintenance of that village? |
I went to my boat today to tie up for any surge from Katrina and found
for the second time that kids have been aboard smoking pot. I would report this to the police and keep a copy of the report on your boat. If you are ever stopped for a search by the USCG and they bring a dog aboard and find pot remnants, YOU will be the one in trouble and in danger of losing your boat - UNLESS you have reported the illegal entry to the police and kept your copy to show the coasties. |
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prodigal1 wrote: Peggie Hall wrote: I hate to give away my age, but it wasn't MY generation...the Boomers came after me. And I agree: my god, what the baby boomers have done to this society! THEY were the ones who chose to let daycare warehouse their kids instead of raising 'em themselves...their kids have made the same choice...and now we have a third generation of "warehoused" kids coming up who've had no real "raising," and who are so desperate for any real attention--postive OR negative--from adults that they'll even shoot their schoolmates and teachers to get it. "it's not MY fault, it's someone else..." That's NOT what I said OR even implied...and you know it's not. nice cop out Peggie. moral high ground you do not have. if it takes an entire village to raise a child, what part did you play or are you playing in the creation/maintenance of that village? I chose not to have children, because I could not stay home to raise them. I think my part in "the village" is obvious from my previous comments: if parents can't be bothered to teach their children that actions have consequences, the "village" has to do it. If the "village" won't assume any responsibility either, the "village" has no choice but to accept being victimized...which is apparently what "dbohara" has decided to do. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detai...=400&group=327 |
PocoLoco wrote:
Wow! You don't want them to get in trouble for trespassing and smoking pot. Maybe their parents felt the same way. Let the little guys do whatever the hell they want. Seems like your priorities are a little messed up here. Yes...maybe you could use your influence to have them accepted into the army John. A few tours in Iraq would straighten them out....don't you think? |
On 27 Aug 2005 15:46:44 -0700, wrote (with
possible editing): I went to my boat today to tie up for any surge from Katrina and found for the second time that kids have been aboard smoking pot. They do not steal anything or do any damage but they do leave butts and ashes. This time one left a T-shirt which could be used to ID them if I was really interested. The first time I think they got aboard by me leaving the combo lock unlocked (you have to spin the tumblers and I forget). This time I think they actually removed the hasp but carefully replaced the screws when they left. Security at the dock is minimal and would be difficult to enforce. I do not want to get them in trouble for the pot smoking and do not really want to get them in trouble for using my boat while doing no damage. However, they could get hurt being stoned and stupid so I want them to never come back. I left two notes for them telling to leave my boat but I do not think they will see them because they do not turn on any lights. I'll replace the lock and hasp tomorrow but wonder if anyone else has any suggestions for a way to warn them without hurting them. For what it's worth, I think the issue of prosecution isn't really central to you. No opinion, and I won't get into a battle. I think what you are really concerned with is damage to your boat. First of all, I believe the advice that gave you is spot on. You need to keep a copy of the incident report on your boat. The Coast Guard has made drug interdiction a large part of their mission and you never know when you will become a random target. Second, what access do you have to power? You could mount a low light cctv camera high up on a mast and aim it at the cockpit. With a small recorder with or without a motion detector; it would likely give you a picture of the offenders sufficient to identify them. Certainly a motion detector would give false positives as a boat is always moving, but it would work. After the storm (good luck, btw) you might rig this up. Best, -- Larry Email to rapp at lmr dot com |
wrote in message
ups.com... I am not interested in ruining some kids life just cuz he thinks my boat is a good place to have a joint with his girlfriend. Instead, you'll let him go on to ruin his own life in a bigger way. Depriving him of the opportunity to learn that actions such as breaking into your boat have consequences and getting the intervention he needs is doing him no favor. -- Roger Long (Former drug counselor and drug program director) |
That is a very, very, good point. The drug cops will take your boat
if they find a single seed because it boosts their "body count" and looks good at evaluation time without having to actually confront someone who might shoot at them. -- Roger Long wrote in message ... I went to my boat today to tie up for any surge from Katrina and found for the second time that kids have been aboard smoking pot. I would report this to the police and keep a copy of the report on your boat. If you are ever stopped for a search by the USCG and they bring a dog aboard and find pot remnants, YOU will be the one in trouble and in danger of losing your boat - UNLESS you have reported the illegal entry to the police and kept your copy to show the coasties. |
They don't need to be busted since they're not wrecking anything, but
if they're leaving residue that's your liability when the CG sticks their nose into your business. Zero tolerance. You can't legally rig up a loaded shotgun to the door, but you could rig up one of those aerosol air horns to the door or a trip wire. Or a whole bunch of pots and pans to crash unto the floor. Or both. I can see the air horn loading their pants, scrambling head over heels out of the boat, up the dock and out of the vicinity in a blind panic which would be vastly entertaining to see. You could add to the horn and the pans with a tape recording of a snarling, barking, attacking beast and I'll bet you could have them screaming as they run. There could be a silver lining to this whole episode if you get it on video. Sam |
Sam wrote:
You can't legally rig up a loaded shotgun to the door, but you could rig up one of those aerosol air horns to the door or a trip wire. Or a whole bunch of pots and pans to crash unto the floor. Or both. I can see the air horn loading their pants, scrambling head over heels out of the boat, up the dock and out of the vicinity in a blind panic which would be vastly entertaining to see. You could add to the horn and the pans with a tape recording of a snarling, barking, attacking beast and I'll bet you could have them screaming as they run. There could be a silver lining to this whole episode if you get it on video. Sam Which their parents would use as evidence in their lawsuit against him--and prob'ly the marina too--if the little buggers got hurt in their mad scramble to get off his boat and run away. And if a burglar who fell through the skylight of a building he was trying to break into was able to win a suit against the building owner for a ridiculous amount for the injuries he sustained (it happened! Nor is it the only case in which a would-be criminal successfully sued for injuries he sustained while committing--or trying to commit--the crime), those kids' parents could very likely win too. 'Tis a strange and wacky world we live in today. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detai...=400&group=327 |
hmmm, I did make sure there was a report of my calling the sherriff.
I did consider some way to scasre the crap outa them, mousetraps in the cockpit, a flash cam set to fire when they pull the hatchboards, a siren, etc. However, I can just imagine a couple panicked stoned kids tripping over the lifelines and falling into the water and drowning and then having REAL problems. My impression is that these are just local kids who do seem to be good kids cuz they take care not to hurt anything. The are not old enough to have formed a complete sense of someones personal property and I do not desire to ruin their lives just because they are currently foolish. They live right across the canal and I get the impression that its like when I was a kid sneaking into the neighbors tool shed to smoke cigs, stupid but I didnt turn out to be a criminal whereas if I had been imprisoned for it I may have turned out bad. |
Well, I don't know, it sure is a dilema. If you can't leave them a
note, or scare them, what can you do? Down here in Georgia if someone breaks into your home you can shoot them all you want. Maybe if you're sleeping on the boat, you can 'wing' them a little.?? Maybe you could install a lock that's harder to open along with a hasp that's properly installed so it can't be unscrewed?? Tell their parents?? It sounds sort of suspicious that they would break into your boat just to smoke a joint. Maybe they want to use the bed. Maybe it's not who you think it is. I'd try the air horn. Sam |
In article .com,
Sam wrote: Well, I don't know, it sure is a dilema. If you can't leave them a note, or scare them, what can you do? Down here in Georgia if someone breaks into your home you can shoot them all you want. Maybe if you're sleeping on the boat, you can 'wing' them a little.?? Maybe you could install a lock that's harder to open along with a hasp that's properly installed so it can't be unscrewed?? Tell their parents?? It sounds sort of suspicious that they would break into your boat just to smoke a joint. Maybe they want to use the bed. Maybe it's not who you think it is. I'd try the air horn. Sam Motion sensor tied to a loud horn. That should do it. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Don,
Teach them little rascals what body bags are. Yeah that's it, make cannon fodder out of em. :-( Paul Don White wrote: PocoLoco wrote: Wow! You don't want them to get in trouble for trespassing and smoking pot. Maybe their parents felt the same way. Let the little guys do whatever the hell they want. Seems like your priorities are a little messed up here. Yes...maybe you could use your influence to have them accepted into the army John. A few tours in Iraq would straighten them out....don't you think? |
dbohara,
For what it's worth I'm in your corner on this issue. The fact that they didn't hurt anything on the boat would allow me to cut them some slack and for the reasons you state. Paul wrote: hmmm, I did make sure there was a report of my calling the sherriff. I did consider some way to scasre the crap outa them, mousetraps in the cockpit, a flash cam set to fire when they pull the hatchboards, a siren, etc. However, I can just imagine a couple panicked stoned kids tripping over the lifelines and falling into the water and drowning and then having REAL problems. My impression is that these are just local kids who do seem to be good kids cuz they take care not to hurt anything. The are not old enough to have formed a complete sense of someones personal property and I do not desire to ruin their lives just because they are currently foolish. They live right across the canal and I get the impression that its like when I was a kid sneaking into the neighbors tool shed to smoke cigs, stupid but I didnt turn out to be a criminal whereas if I had been imprisoned for it I may have turned out bad. |
Paul Schilter wrote:
Don, Teach them little rascals what body bags are. Yeah that's it, make cannon fodder out of em. :-( Paul Sorry...I'm not qualified to do that. I'm not, nor have I ever been, a military man. I was passing that duty off to a retired former army officer who also has teaching experience with high school age youths. |
Yeah..seems like its always somebody else's fault.
|
you could always put up a sign thanking them for their politeness, then
ask them to find a different boat or car to smoke in. |
Also, if you do not report the problem and then they start a fire or
otherwise damage your boat (or other boats), I don't know what your insurance would think. I had a similar situation, and in retrospect wish I had reported it earlier, because the kids started using other boats, too, got bolder, caused more damage, and eventually got caught with a higher liablility on their hands. Also, I leave my boat unlocked. That may be unwise in some areas, but nobody around here steals the expensive boating stuff - just booze. So I was "boarded" again over the winter, lost a few flashlights, no booze on board anyway, and no one smashed in my door! ==== Charles T. Low www.boatdocking.com ==== wrote in message ups.com... I went to my boat today to tie up for any surge from Katrina and found for the second time that kids have been aboard smoking pot. They do not steal anything or do any damage but they do leave butts and ashes. This time one left a T-shirt which could be used to ID them if I was really interested. The first time I think they got aboard by me leaving the combo lock unlocked (you have to spin the tumblers and I forget). This time I think they actually removed the hasp but carefully replaced the screws when they left. Security at the dock is minimal and would be difficult to enforce. I do not want to get them in trouble for the pot smoking and do not really want to get them in trouble for using my boat while doing no damage. However, they could get hurt being stoned and stupid so I want them to never come back. I left two notes for them telling to leave my boat but I do not think they will see them because they do not turn on any lights. I'll replace the lock and hasp tomorrow but wonder if anyone else has any suggestions for a way to warn them without hurting them. |
|
In article . com,
wrote: I went to my boat today to tie up for any surge from Katrina Was worried about her, and you. Everything come out okay? .... ANYthing come out okay? and found for the second time that kids have been aboard smoking pot. They do not steal anything or do any damage but they do leave butts and ashes. Some good points by others. I'd document and take pics for your protection, but if they're not doing any harm otherwise, I'd let it alone, except possibly to leave a note asking them to clean up a bit more after themselves. Some of the neighborhood kids terrorize our neighbors who try to correct their behavior. They don't bother us because we simply ask them to be a bit more careful so they don't hurt themselves. Main point: You have kids of that age. Some or most of the nay-sayers don't. AND you have first hand experience in what happens to kids that are caught with drugs. I trust your perceptions and intuition. -- Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
They live right across the canal and I get the impression that its
like when I was a kid sneaking into the neighbors tool shed to smoke cigs, stupid but I didnt turn out to be a criminal whereas if I had been imprisoned for it I may have turned out bad. I understand where you are coming from. But if you can tell that someone has been smoking pot in your boat you can be dang sure that the marine police and coasties can tell, too. But you will be the one losing a boat. Even if the Fed's don't take it, Florida confiscates automobiles every day that are found to have even a small amount of illegal drugs in them. At the very least put a note on your boat where they would see it before entering, telling them not to use you boat (or anyone elses) anymore. Also write that you have reported the illegal entry and drug use to the police. But there still could be residue in your boat. I know of cases where the CG wiped parts of cabins with sterile cloth and then sealed them up for testing. Then I'd be sure to make a formal report and get some sort of report # for your own records. If the kids take your warning they'll not be caught. If they don't then they will, and after ignoring a warning, should be. Btw, a couple weeks ago I was visiting a friend. His grown son was there with one of his buddies. That buddy is in the USCG and works in the DC office. We got to talking and he said that all the money they were getting for "homeland security" was going into their drug interdiction efforts. Yeah, some was into "port security" but for the coasties "port security" is drug interdiction. After all, traffic is traffic. Smuggling is smuggling, whether it be pot, cocaine, heroin, people, or explosives. |
"Peggie Hall" wrote
wrote: I do not want to get them in trouble for the pot smoking and do not really want to get them in trouble for using my boat while doing no damage. You're kidding! What they're doing is illegal--they're trespassing as well as using illegal drugs. By not prosecuting, you're condoning both--and lord knows, in our wacky society today, what you could be charged with ..... Peg is right. If police found the "butts" they could confiscate your boat. |
Vito wrote:
Peg is right. If police found the "butts" they could confiscate your boat. In his first post he said: I went to my boat today to tie up for any surge from Katrina... So depending on where he is relative to where Katrina struck, his dilemma--or even the boat--may no longer exist. I just hope HE's all right and can post again to let us know how he and his boat fared. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detai...=400&group=327 |
Thanks Peggy, I am fine and so is my boat. I am about 400 miles east
of New Orleans and all we got was about 3' of storm surge. We got 10' from Dennis a few weeks ago. I appreciate your concern. David OHara |
ahoy,
My wife is in the apartment management business. While talking to other apartment management staff at another complex in the area, the husband of the husband / wife team told her that he had found what appeared to be crack cocaine in a baggies on the complex grounds. He called the local police and the responding officer almost arrested him for possession of the drugs. He said next time he'd just ignore the baggies. He just didn't want some innocent kid getting a hold of it. Paul ahoy wrote: On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 00:58:25 -0500, wrote: I went to my boat today to tie up for any surge from Katrina and found for the second time that kids have been aboard smoking pot. I would report this to the police and keep a copy of the report on your boat. If you are ever stopped for a search by the USCG and they bring a dog aboard and find pot remnants, YOU will be the one in trouble and in danger of losing your boat - UNLESS you have reported the illegal entry to the police and kept your copy to show the coasties. old jewish proverb; "never let your name become known to the authorities" I'd be leery of reporting anything. If they bring their dog with them to investigate and find any pot residue they'll probably just bust you instead. It's about boosting the number of provable convictions; nothing to do with right or wrong. The cops can't do **** about finding your trespassers and they don't really care anyway so they'll probably end up investigating you instead. Sorry you're having trouble. |
wrote:
Thanks Peggy, I am fine and so is my boat. I am about 400 miles east of New Orleans and all we got was about 3' of storm surge. We got 10' from Dennis a few weeks ago. I appreciate your concern. That's wonderful! I'm so glad to hear that you and your boat are ok. A lot of others aren't as fortunate. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detai...=400&group=327 |
Are there 12V motion detectors that can be coupled to very bright spot
lights? Set the detector to look at the companion way and the spots to illuminate the cockpit. BF wrote in message ups.com... I went to my boat today to tie up for any surge from Katrina and found for the second time that kids have been aboard smoking pot. They do not steal anything or do any damage but they do leave butts and ashes. This time one left a T-shirt which could be used to ID them if I was really interested. The first time I think they got aboard by me leaving the combo lock unlocked (you have to spin the tumblers and I forget). This time I think they actually removed the hasp but carefully replaced the screws when they left. Security at the dock is minimal and would be difficult to enforce. I do not want to get them in trouble for the pot smoking and do not really want to get them in trouble for using my boat while doing no damage. However, they could get hurt being stoned and stupid so I want them to never come back. I left two notes for them telling to leave my boat but I do not think they will see them because they do not turn on any lights. I'll replace the lock and hasp tomorrow but wonder if anyone else has any suggestions for a way to warn them without hurting them. |
Marinas differ. My marina has no security--you'll be hard pressed to
even find anyone employed by the marina around. On the other hand, we have a camaraderie between boat owners on my pier, a couple of live-aboards, and several folks who are at the boat quite frequently, even on "school nights". We keep an eye out for each others boat. If we lock our boats, we use combination locks so that a fellow slip owner can check on our boat. Just last week someone called me to inquire if I had intentionally left my boat unplugged. On the other hand, when I was on the hard in a different, larger marina, I had security follow me to my boat every time I drove in to check on things. If I wanted to drive around the marina to look at the different boats and different work people were doing, there was security again. They were nice, but distant, and a constant reminder of--I don't know of what. I was not doing anything wrong, but I still felt uncomfortable. Even some of the marina shipswrights expressed some discomfort towards the security--and they have every right to expect that their shops stay secure! If you lock your boat more securely, then the problem will likely move to someone else's boat. Have you considered discussing this with fellow slip owners, and asking those around your boat to "keep an eye out"? Some larger marinas in this area have also instituted a "marina watch" program. Sometimes a big show of a small effort will deter possible "perps". If it happens regularly, perhaps a little extra effort and a few extra trips to the boat by a few fellow ship owners, along with a few signs, may yield results; at least, increased "legitimate" traffic may deter illegitimate ones. It's sad that sometimes people take advantage of a less "policed" or self-policed situation. Good luck! mickey |
How about liability if they get caught and the law decides to
impound you boat and come after you for knowingly (?) let them use the boat. Leanne wrote in message ups.com... I went to my boat today to tie up for any surge from Katrina and found for the second time that kids have been aboard smoking pot. They do not steal anything or do any damage but they do leave butts and ashes. This time one left a T-shirt which could be used to ID them if I was really interested. The first time I think they got aboard by me leaving the combo lock unlocked (you have to spin the tumblers and I forget). This time I think they actually removed the hasp but carefully replaced the screws when they left. Security at the dock is minimal and would be difficult to enforce. I do not want to get them in trouble for the pot smoking and do not really want to get them in trouble for using my boat while doing no damage. However, they could get hurt being stoned and stupid so I want them to never come back. I left two notes for them telling to leave my boat but I do not think they will see them because they do not turn on any lights. I'll replace the lock and hasp tomorrow but wonder if anyone else has any suggestions for a way to warn them without hurting them. |
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