One or 2 groups of Batteries??
 

Do you consider it better to have one or 2 sets of house batteries?

From the material I have read and some practical experience one seems
to be a better answer with a separate battery for the starter or as
the dock side house battery.

I think Nigel Calder goes with the one set of batteries for the house?

http://www.amplepower.com/primer/prefer/index.html

" The Preferred System

The Preferred System consists of a single house bank, and a dedicated
starter battery for all engines. A separate generator battery is
sometimes present. "

"......a two house bank system is no longer necessary. In fact, the
more battery banks in use, the less reliable the system will be, while
also increasing cost and management problems."

"Instead of a 1-2-both switch, a simple parallel switch can be used to
start the engine from the house bank if needed. "

"But, if you make the house bank from parallel batteries a cell
failure in one only knocks out that battery."

"There are other positive benefits of a single house bank versus two."
"...a gain in effective capacity results because the rate of discharge
relative to battery capacity is reduced."


FYI
http://www.amplepower.com/wire/dual_alt/index.html

Dual Alternator Controller

Installation and Operating Instructions

Ample Power Models DAC-12 and DAC-24 August 16, 2005

INCLUDING DIAGRAM

XXXXXXXXXXXX

http://www.amplepower.com/wire/next/nextp.html

Next step reg. DIAGRAM

One big house bank and a separate starting battery is best for a number
o reasons.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Mic" wrote in message
...
Do you consider it better to have one or 2 sets of house batteries?

From the material I have read and some practical experience one seems
to be a better answer with a separate battery for the starter or as
the dock side house battery.

I think Nigel Calder goes with the one set of batteries for the house?

http://www.amplepower.com/primer/prefer/index.html

" The Preferred System

The Preferred System consists of a single house bank, and a dedicated
starter battery for all engines. A separate generator battery is
sometimes present. "

"......a two house bank system is no longer necessary. In fact, the
more battery banks in use, the less reliable the system will be, while
also increasing cost and management problems."

"Instead of a 1-2-both switch, a simple parallel switch can be used to
start the engine from the house bank if needed. "

"But, if you make the house bank from parallel batteries a cell
failure in one only knocks out that battery."

"There are other positive benefits of a single house bank versus two."
"...a gain in effective capacity results because the rate of discharge
relative to battery capacity is reduced."


FYI
http://www.amplepower.com/wire/dual_alt/index.html

Dual Alternator Controller

Installation and Operating Instructions

Ample Power Models DAC-12 and DAC-24 August 16, 2005

INCLUDING DIAGRAM

XXXXXXXXXXXX

http://www.amplepower.com/wire/next/nextp.html

Next step reg. DIAGRAM

"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote:

One big house bank and a separate starting battery is best for a number
o reasons.

We have two house banks, and no starting battery. I think there are
advantages each way.

With two house banks, we can be sure that we won't use up all the
battery capacity overnight, and will have plenty of power to start the
engine up in the morning. Since most of our battery use is NOT for
starting the engine, it doesn't make any sense to have the type of
battery which is basically only good for that type of use. It is
unused most of the time, and is basically wasted power. And won't the
charging system have to be different for just the one battery, than
for the house bank?

We do have a large number of batteries - each bank is eight 6 volt
batteries. I think it would be hard to find enough space for that
many batteries in one place without putting them into the living
space.

Bob converted a car to run on electricity and ran it to work for 5
years - in the car he had 16 or 18 six volt batteries plus a 12 volt
battery for the lights and radio.


"Mic" wrote in message
...
Do you consider it better to have one or 2 sets of house batteries?

From the material I have read and some practical experience one seems
to be a better answer with a separate battery for the starter or as
the dock side house battery.

I think Nigel Calder goes with the one set of batteries for the house?

http://www.amplepower.com/primer/prefer/index.html

" The Preferred System

The Preferred System consists of a single house bank, and a dedicated
starter battery for all engines. A separate generator battery is
sometimes present. "

"......a two house bank system is no longer necessary. In fact, the
more battery banks in use, the less reliable the system will be, while
also increasing cost and management problems."

"Instead of a 1-2-both switch, a simple parallel switch can be used to
start the engine from the house bank if needed. "

"But, if you make the house bank from parallel batteries a cell
failure in one only knocks out that battery."

"There are other positive benefits of a single house bank versus two."
"...a gain in effective capacity results because the rate of discharge
relative to battery capacity is reduced."


FYI
http://www.amplepower.com/wire/dual_alt/index.html

Dual Alternator Controller

Installation and Operating Instructions

Ample Power Models DAC-12 and DAC-24 August 16, 2005

INCLUDING DIAGRAM

XXXXXXXXXXXX

http://www.amplepower.com/wire/next/nextp.html

Next step reg. DIAGRAM


grandma Rosalie

(Mic) wrote in :


" The Preferred System

The Preferred System consists of a single house bank, and a dedicated
starter battery for all engines. A separate generator battery is
sometimes present. "

I disagree....

"......a two house bank system is no longer necessary. In fact, the
more battery banks in use, the less reliable the system will be, while
also increasing cost and management problems."

Ol' Nigel, the expert just because he has a publisher, must have a pretty
large boat. If he does, then he can have one huge house battery. But,
real boaters don't have that luxury. The batteries go where they can. One
house bank means a 130AH deepcycle or two 230AH golf cart batteries in
series because there's just no place to put them. This isn't enough power
if you have radio/radar/autopilot/refridgerator/pumps/computer and lights
running 24/7 at sea. Then, what happens if a cell shorts or opens or just
decays? Is ol Nigel gonna run it off the starting battery? I think NOT.
He's gonna sit in the dark while we go on with our redundant system of TWO
house battery banks, only concerned with a little conservation.

NASA has at least two, if not 4 to 8, of everything aboard any spacecraft.
A ship is a spacecraft...stranded in its environment with no hope of
repairs...it still needs redundancy. Even two sets of 130AH deep cycles,
which now require no maintenance, is better than one set of golf cart
batteries, which do. Nobody in a boat has too much power...especially sail

"Instead of a 1-2-both switch, a simple parallel switch can be used to
start the engine from the house bank if needed. "

Unless, of course, your NOT at the dock out there in the 8' waves where you
can't work to disconnect the shorted starting battery being beaten to death
by the sea. I use a simple paralleling switch in my stepvan because if I
have to I can stop, get out, and fix whatever's wrong. A 33' sloop in 8'
seas doesn't have that luxury, what with everyone hanging on for dear life
rockin' and rollin' just trying to keep her pointed home. A simple switch
paralleling the two banks on a shorted starting battery will simply short
the whole house. It isn't going to start.


"But, if you make the house bank from parallel batteries a cell
failure in one only knocks out that battery."

See? He answers my problem in the paragraph above. This is why Lionheart
has TWO 1-2-Both battery switches. One switch selects which house battery
powers the house. The other battery switch selects whether the house or
the starting battery starts the Perkins. If you put both switches in BOTH,
they all crank the Perkins and power the house. REDUNDANCY...always
REDUNDANCY.

I like redundant charging, too. The Perkins has TWO alternators, 80A for
the starting battery on the original engine mount and 120A on the house
batteries connected to a diode separator that charges both banks. If one
alternator fails, simply put both switches in BOTH and either one of the
alternators charges all the batteries at once. Power is our FRIEND.


"There are other positive benefits of a single house bank versus two."
"...a gain in effective capacity results because the rate of discharge
relative to battery capacity is reduced."

Nope...doesn't wash.....

The ampere-hour rating of any battery, even his, depends on the LOAD
current on that battery. The lighter the load, the higher the actual amp-
hour capacity of the battery. Put a 1A light bulb across a 130AH deepcycle
and time how long it takes it to die.....MUCH longer than 130 hours. 130AH
is the 20 amp load rating. Draw 50A off it and it's dead in minutes, not
hours, because the chemical reaction of acid and lead can only happen so
fast.

When one has two battery banks, the load current is halved on them. The
real amp-hour rating at this load goes up significantly as the results.
Nigel has it backwards!


FYI
http://www.amplepower.com/wire/dual_alt/index.html

Dual Alternator Controller

REDUNDANCY....always REDUNDANCY. This controller fails you gots NO
CHARGING! Two SIMPLE regulators reduces your total failure probablility to
near zero.

I like integrated regulators....GASP!...WHAT?!!....Integrated regulators?!
How can this be?!

The integrated, internal regulators in all your cars works just fine. When
was the last time you lost a REGULATOR when your car's alternator went out?
You didn't. You lost a brush or a more probably a rectifier diode. The
internal regulator reduces the wiring maze in the engine room, another
point of failure. The internal regulator is made for THAT alternator, not
a whole series of alternators like these gee-whiz expensive beasts with
their LED lights, plugs that corrode, etc. What is this fascination with
ever-increasing the complexity of such a simple device? Regulators are
VERY accurately controlled by Zener diodes in 2005. They've been that way
for decades. You don't need to be screwing around with "settings" on
regulators. Put 14-14.5V to the house battery and he's one happy camper!

The other thing I don't like, but Lionheart has already, is these BIG
alternators. Ever look at a battery charger? Do you charge it at 120
amps? No? Why? Battery charging chemistry is S-L-O-W! Time is your
charging battery's friend. The longer you take to charge it, the more
charge it absorbs and the safer it is for it....especially DEEP CYCLE house
batteries. Starting batteries, like your car battery, made of lots more
plates with huge surface areas to create huge currents for seconds can
charge at much higher rates than a deep cycle with its low count, thick
plates with much lower surface area. The charging current per square inch
of plate surface is the same, it's just that the deep cycle has lots LESS
surface area on thicker plates. This charging them for an hour at 100A is
absurd! The chemistry just can't absorb the current you're shoving in
there fast enough, so it rids itself of excess by getting HOT. Heat
generated at high charging rates DOESN'T charge it. You end up with a gas
station surface charge, which doesn't last. Golf cart 230AH batteries LOVE
about 25-30A of charge. They hardly get warm and the specific gravity goes
all the way up to 1.260 without percolating them. So, why do we need an
alternator bigger than 30A + the house load current while we're charging?
We don't.


Ample power......two banks of L-16s at 1.260 gravity....ahh...ample power.

--
Larry

"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in
:

One big house bank and a separate starting battery is best for a number
o reasons.



Any idea why?

--
Larry

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:38:41 -0400, Larry wrote:

"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in
:

One big house bank and a separate starting battery is best for a number
o reasons.



Any idea why?

http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/03.Banks/index.html

"Some things to keep in mind:

The only caveat to large banks of batteries is proper internal fusing.
If a cell shorts out in a battery, the battery voltage will drop
approximately 2 Volts. All batteries in the bank will start
discharging into the shorted battery, unless fuses take the bad
battery out of the circuit. Thus, battery banks need to be fused
internally as well as externally."

--
Larry

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote:

One big house bank and a separate starting battery is best for a number
o reasons.

We have two house banks, and no starting battery. I think there are
advantages each way.

Not really.

With two house banks, we can be sure that we won't use up all the
battery capacity overnight, and will have plenty of power to start the
engine up in the morning.

Same with 1 hourse and one starting battery.

Since most of our battery use is NOT for
starting the engine, it doesn't make any sense to have the type of
battery which is basically only good for that type of use.

Yes it is since a house bank is deep cycle which is different than a
starting battery.
Using a deep cycle battery to start an engine is hard on the battery and if
for
some reason the engine is being hard to start, it may not provide enough
current
and will further damagage the bank.

It is
unused most of the time, and is basically wasted power.

Not wasted. Is your EPIRB wasted money? It is guaranteed to be
there when it is needed no matter how forgetful the operator is. The battery
is small and cheap. Mine is 1300 CCA and cost about $70.

And won't the
charging system have to be different for just the one battery, than
for the house bank?

Different, but not complex. A parallelling solenoid is the simplest solution
and
something like The Eliminator or Echo Charge is the optimal solution.


We do have a large number of batteries - each bank is eight 6 volt
batteries. I think it would be hard to find enough space for that
many batteries in one place without putting them into the living
space.

Lost you here. Another point is one large unified house bank will have a
longer
total lifetime that two separate banks. I have a set of 2 8D gels that are
over
12 years old and still doing fine in almost everyday use. The boat has two
8D
AGM that have onlt barely started to loose capacity and are 6 years old.

Bob converted a car to run on electricity and ran it to work for 5
years - in the car he had 16 or 18 six volt batteries plus a 12 volt
battery for the lights and radio.

That's only because the lights and radio needed 12V and the driver motors
run at a higher voltage. Different situation.

Doug
s/v Callista


"Mic" wrote in message
...
Do you consider it better to have one or 2 sets of house batteries?

From the material I have read and some practical experience one seems
to be a better answer with a separate battery for the starter or as
the dock side house battery.

I think Nigel Calder goes with the one set of batteries for the house?

http://www.amplepower.com/primer/prefer/index.html

" The Preferred System

The Preferred System consists of a single house bank, and a dedicated
starter battery for all engines. A separate generator battery is
sometimes present. "

"......a two house bank system is no longer necessary. In fact, the
more battery banks in use, the less reliable the system will be, while
also increasing cost and management problems."

"Instead of a 1-2-both switch, a simple parallel switch can be used to
start the engine from the house bank if needed. "

"But, if you make the house bank from parallel batteries a cell
failure in one only knocks out that battery."

"There are other positive benefits of a single house bank versus two."
"...a gain in effective capacity results because the rate of discharge
relative to battery capacity is reduced."


FYI
http://www.amplepower.com/wire/dual_alt/index.html

Dual Alternator Controller

Installation and Operating Instructions

Ample Power Models DAC-12 and DAC-24 August 16, 2005

INCLUDING DIAGRAM

XXXXXXXXXXXX

http://www.amplepower.com/wire/next/nextp.html

Next step reg. DIAGRAM


grandma Rosalie

"Mic" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:38:41 -0400, Larry wrote:

"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote in
:

One big house bank and a separate starting battery is best for a number
o reasons.



Any idea why?

http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/03.Banks/index.html

"Some things to keep in mind:

The only caveat to large banks of batteries is proper internal fusing.
If a cell shorts out in a battery, the battery voltage will drop
approximately 2 Volts. All batteries in the bank will start
discharging into the shorted battery, unless fuses take the bad
battery out of the circuit. Thus, battery banks need to be fused
internally as well as externally."

--
Larry

Good point, but a fuse will not neccessarirly mitigate a failure of this
sort.

"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote:
"Rosalie B." wrote in message
.. .
"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote:

One big house bank and a separate starting battery is best for a number
o reasons.

We have two house banks, and no starting battery. I think there are
advantages each way.

Not really.

Well you have said what you prefer, and I have said what Bob prefers.
Are you saying that Bob has no logical reason for using two house
banks? If so, that is very annoying and rude of you. If not, then
you need to work on being more tactful.

With two house banks, we can be sure that we won't use up all the
battery capacity overnight, and will have plenty of power to start the
engine up in the morning.

Same with 1 hourse and one starting battery.

Not really.

Since most of our battery use is NOT for
starting the engine, it doesn't make any sense to have the type of
battery which is basically only good for that type of use.

Yes it is since a house bank is deep cycle which is different than a
starting battery.
Using a deep cycle battery to start an engine is hard on the battery and if
for
some reason the engine is being hard to start, it may not provide enough
current
and will further damagage the bank.

It is
unused most of the time, and is basically wasted power.

Not wasted. Is your EPIRB wasted money? It is guaranteed to be
there when it is needed no matter how forgetful the operator is. The battery
is small and cheap. Mine is 1300 CCA and cost about $70.

This is irrelevant. You might just as well say that the battery
operated searchlight is wasted money because we might never need it.
Or indeed any battery operated item. Doesn't have a thing to do with
starting batteries or house batteries.

And won't the
charging system have to be different for just the one battery, than
for the house bank?

Different, but not complex. A parallelling solenoid is the simplest solution
and
something like The Eliminator or Echo Charge is the optimal solution.


We do have a large number of batteries - each bank is eight 6 volt
batteries. I think it would be hard to find enough space for that
many batteries in one place without putting them into the living
space.

Lost you here. Another point is one large unified house bank will have a
longer
total lifetime that two separate banks. I have a set of 2 8D gels that are
over
12 years old and still doing fine in almost everyday use. The boat has two
8D
AGM that have onlt barely started to loose capacity and are 6 years old.

We have had 8D wet cell batteries which came with the boat in 1998 as
the original house bank, and we replaced them with golf cart batteries
last year. When we bought her, the boat didn't have a second bank
or a starting battery IIRC.

Bob considered the cost and life span of the various types of
batteries, and decided that the life span of the new techie batteries
was not long enough to make up for the extra expense and trickier
charging problems. He figured he could replace the pack of wet cell
or golf cart 3 or 4 times for the cost of one battery pack of the more
'advanced' batteries, which would at best last twice as long. He
doesn't mind watering the batteries and checking on them occasionally.

Bob converted a car to run on electricity and ran it to work for 5
years - in the car he had 16 or 18 six volt batteries plus a 12 volt
battery for the lights and radio.

That's only because the lights and radio needed 12V and the driver motors
run at a higher voltage. Different situation.

Yes I know. But he researched the batteries for the car, and he used
golf cart batteries for that too. The whole car conversion cost less
than $5,000.00, including buying the car to convert.

Doug
s/v Callista


"Mic" wrote in message
...
Do you consider it better to have one or 2 sets of house batteries?

From the material I have read and some practical experience one seems
to be a better answer with a separate battery for the starter or as
the dock side house battery.

I think Nigel Calder goes with the one set of batteries for the house?

http://www.amplepower.com/primer/prefer/index.html

" The Preferred System

The Preferred System consists of a single house bank, and a dedicated
starter battery for all engines. A separate generator battery is
sometimes present. "

"......a two house bank system is no longer necessary. In fact, the
more battery banks in use, the less reliable the system will be, while
also increasing cost and management problems."

"Instead of a 1-2-both switch, a simple parallel switch can be used to
start the engine from the house bank if needed. "

"But, if you make the house bank from parallel batteries a cell
failure in one only knocks out that battery."

"There are other positive benefits of a single house bank versus two."
"...a gain in effective capacity results because the rate of discharge
relative to battery capacity is reduced."


grandma Rosalie

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 15:59:29 GMT, Rosalie B.
wrote:

"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote:
"Rosalie B." wrote in message
. ..
"Doug Dotson" dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote:

One big house bank and a separate starting battery is best for a number
o reasons.

We have two house banks, and no starting battery. I think there are
advantages each way.

Not really.


Have a look at these links:
http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/04.Costs/index.html

Comparing Life-Cycle Costs By Battery Technology

Excellent graphics chart

http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/05.Model/index.html

How the Model Calculates Life-Cycle Costs

Again an excellent resource with detailed charting


http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/

Comparing Marine Battery Technologies
(Gel, Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM), Flooded Lead Acid, and Nickel-Cadmium)

http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/00...ary/index.html

How Lead Acid Batteries Work

http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/01.Type/index.html

Battery Types: Flooded versus AGM and Gel
On the kinds of batteries we may use on board:

http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/

The ultimate on Battery INFO\

http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/batbrand.htm

BATTERY MANUFACTURERS AND BRAND NAMES LIST

HUGE list

http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/batlinks.htm
BATTERY INFORMATION LINKS LIST
Index:

Alternators

Cable, Connectors and Wiring Products

Chargers

Converters (AC to DC) and DC Power Supplies

Converters (DC to DC)

Desulfators and Pulse Chargers

Float Chargers and Battery Maintainers

Generators and Gensets

Inverters, Inverter-Chargers and Converters, (DC to AC)

Isolators, Combiners and Seperators

Jump Starters and Jumper (or Booster) Cables

Low Voltage Disconnects

Miscellaneous Battery Information

Regulators and Charge Controllers

Solar and Photovoltaic (PV)

"Smart" Chargers

Switches

Test and Monitor Equipment

http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/batlinks2.htm

HUGE list

BATTERY REFERENCES LINK LIST