BoatBanter.com - Go Figure ---- External regulator, a NextStep

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Go Figure ---- External regulator, a NextStep

Maybe you have a suggestion:

Situation:

A Cat with 2 engines and 2 alternators

"Yes, it is an external regulator, a NextStep. Which works just fine
with both engines going, it is only when the port engine is running by

itself that it overcharges. There must be a problem with the wiring
somewhere that I just can't find. Also, we have 5 gel cell batteries
and they all seem to be fine."

I believe the Parallel Solenoid has been replaced.

This is not my boat but is an issues with someone elses, any
suggestions, the only info. that I have is the above, so a Q and A
does not apply.....

TIA

Call AmplePower.

"Mic" wrote in message
...
Maybe you have a suggestion:

Situation:

A Cat with 2 engines and 2 alternators

"Yes, it is an external regulator, a NextStep. Which works just fine
with both engines going, it is only when the port engine is running by

itself that it overcharges. There must be a problem with the wiring
somewhere that I just can't find. Also, we have 5 gel cell batteries
and they all seem to be fine."

I believe the Parallel Solenoid has been replaced.

This is not my boat but is an issues with someone elses, any
suggestions, the only info. that I have is the above, so a Q and A
does not apply.....

TIA

I have a similar setup on my cat. It came with twin Yanmars which
have simple alternators with internal regulators. I replaced one
alternator with a high output, regulated by a 2000R regulator. It
would, on occasion run the output voltage up to 17 V until I figured
out what was happening.

The high output alternator was still connected directly to the
starting battery. When the battery combiner latched everything
together, it worked fine. But if the connection parameters weren't
met, the regulator sense was seeing the house bank, but the output was
going to the starter battery. This mismatch could permit overcharging.

The solution was to reroute the output only to the house bank, and
feed the starter battery only through the combiner. Recently, I added
an EchoCharge, and had to reroute the other alternator output. All
charge sources are now directly (more or less) to the house bank,
while the starter batteries are isolated by the EchoCharge, and the
normal connection between the starters and their alternators is severed.

Mic wrote:
Maybe you have a suggestion:

Situation:

A Cat with 2 engines and 2 alternators

"Yes, it is an external regulator, a NextStep. Which works just fine
with both engines going, it is only when the port engine is running by

itself that it overcharges. There must be a problem with the wiring
somewhere that I just can't find. Also, we have 5 gel cell batteries
and they all seem to be fine."

I believe the Parallel Solenoid has been replaced.

This is not my boat but is an issues with someone elses, any
suggestions, the only info. that I have is the above, so a Q and A
does not apply.....

TIA

Larry wrote in :

Simply adding a big paralleling switch (or a new solenoid even more
appropriate) to put all the battery banks in parallel when any engine is
running will solve the problem without tearing out all the wiring. In
parallel, it doesn't make any difference which alternator or both is
charging...works fine.

oops....reread your post and it says the solenoid is there. Are you SURE
they are in parallel when EITHER engine is running?

--
Larry

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:29:49 -0400, Jeff wrote:

I have a similar setup on my cat. It came with twin Yanmars which
have simple alternators with internal regulators. I replaced one
alternator with a high output, regulated by a 2000R regulator. It
would, on occasion run the output voltage up to 17 V until I figured
out what was happening.

The high output alternator was still connected directly to the
starting battery. When the battery combiner latched everything
together, it worked fine. But if the connection parameters weren't
met, the regulator sense was seeing the house bank, but the output was
going to the starter battery. This mismatch could permit overcharging.

The solution was to reroute the output only to the house bank, and
feed the starter battery only through the combiner. Recently, I added
an EchoCharge, and had to reroute the other alternator output. All
charge sources are now directly (more or less) to the house bank,
while the starter batteries are isolated by the EchoCharge, and the
normal connection between the starters and their alternators is severed.

This issue is from a cruiser 1/2 way around the world and via sailmail

From some research here are some Ideas and the message I sent.

Which of the following 3 do you have? I am assuming the parallel
solenoid one?

#1 Parallel Solenoid #SOLxx-100, #SOLxx-200
Recommended Application
- R/V cross charging from the main coach battery bank to a second
house battery bank
Other Notes
- Secondary battery bank may be overcharged, suggest using
Lead-calcium type battery that can tolerate higher voltages for
prolonged periods
- Add-on option to the #NEXT or #SARV3

#2 AutoSwitch #ASxx-100, #ASxx-200
Recommended Application
- Cross charging from a house battery bank to a second battery bank
that has large duration loads or conditions that exceed the
limitations of the EL512

#3 Eliminator #EL5xx
Recommended Application
- Sailing vessel with one house battery bank and a seperate, dedicated
starting battery bank.

Other Notes
- Limited to 5A nominal (12A peak) charge current... Absolutely no
loads can be attached to the starting battery except the electric
starting motor
- Recharges the starting battery with little or no intervention; only
a few Amp-hours are depleted during a normal starting sequence
- Starter battery can be undercharged if engine is started and stopped
multiple times per hour (or charge cycle)
But this is uncommon practice for most sailing vessels.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Table 1. Comparison of Ample Cross Charging Products.
#EL5xx #ASxx-aaa #SOLxx-aaa #1029
Amperage Rating (Continuous) 5 100 or 200 100 or 200
200
Solid-State x x
Precision Multi-stage Regulation x
Temperature Compensated x Note 1
Primary Bat.V Sensing x x x
Secondary Bat.V Sensing x x
May Overcharge Secondary Battery x x
May Discharge Primary Battery x
Stand-alone operation x x x
Low-cost Alternative x
Simplest Design and Installation x x

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Not sure how the above table will render out for you via email.\
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
From Ample Power

Modifying Internally Regulated Alternators

In Theory ...

All alternators can be converted to external regulation. Sometimes,
however, regulator replacement spacers need to be fabricated. If
required, some spacers may need to be conductors, and other spacers
will need to be insulators.

Temperature is the Real Issue

More importantly, however, is the alternator cooling issue.
Alternators designed with internal regulators use temperature of the
alternator to cut back charging Amps to prevent alternator burn-out.
An external regulator doesn't pay attention to alternator temperature,
only the batteries, so the alternator will run at full output as long
as the batteries will accept the charge rate. Many stock alternators
will burn up if used in this manner.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
The alternator system consists of the alternator, the alternator
regulator, the ignition switch, batteries, distribution wiring, and in
older boats, a battery selector switch. Each of the parts may cause
the alternator system to charge improperly, or not at all.

The Battery Selector Switch

In boats that don't follow the Ample Power way of wiring an
alternator, a selector switch is used to enable charging either or
both batteries banks.

A running alternator has energy stored in its field winding, and
suddenly interrupting the alternator output by disconnecting the
batteries results in hundreds of Volts appearing at the alternator
output. Since this same circuit is powering other devices, such as
electronic gear, the high voltage spike can immediately destroy lots
of equipment ...not the least of which is the alternator regulator.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

One thing that might be an issue is that it is likely one alternator
was modified for an external reg. (the one that is working OK) and the
other still has its internal reg.I think this could be a real
possiblility, given the issues you have already had.

Do you have THIS ITEM?
http://www.amplepower.com/wire/autosw/index.html
Determining the Mode of Operation
The AutoSwitch operates in one of four modes described below.

Solar/Charge Control Mode
This mode is used to control a charge source, Device 2, such as a
solar panel. In this mode, the solenoid opens and closes at desired
voltage setpoints. This mode can be used with some unregulated battery
chargers, but should never be used with an alternator because
alternators can not tolerate being open circuited while producing
current.

Load/Continuous Cross Charge Mode
This mode is used to continuously deliver energy to Device 2 whenever
the voltage on Battery 1 is within the voltage setpoints. In this
mode, Device 2 can be a load, such as a water pump, or it can be a
second battery. The second battery can be another house battery, or a
starter battery.

Voltage Limited Cross Charge Mode
This mode is used to provide power to Device 2 whenever Battery 1
voltage is greater than a set voltage, but also less than a limiting
voltage. In this mode, Device 2 is typically a starter battery where
it's desired to limit the maximum applied voltage. Device 2 could also
be a voltage sensitive load that could be damaged by sustained high
voltages. The solenoid will disconnect if the Battery 1 voltage ever
falls below 13.0 Volts.

Time Limited Cross Charge Mode
This mode is used to time limit an applied voltage to Device 2. The
countdown time begins when Battery 1 voltage exceeds a set voltage.
This mode is another good way to cross charge a starter battery. For
example, the connect setpoint could be set for 13.8 Volts with a time
limit of 20 minutes. The solenoid will reconnect when the voltage
falls below the 13.8 setpoint voltage, floating the starter battery
with the house. The solenoid will disconnect if the Battery 1 voltage
ever falls below 13.0 Volts.

Configuring the AutoSwitch
The AutoSwitch is configured by setting switches on the DIP switch and
adjusting a potentiometer, as explained below.

Mic wrote:
This issue is from a cruiser 1/2 way around the world and via sailmail

From some research here are some Ideas and the message I sent.

...

Your last post seems to confuse the issue. I'm not sure of the
benefit of sending marketing info on items that your friend may or may
not have.

Without a bit more info its impossible to diagnose a problem like
this. For instance, when you say "overcharging" to you mean serious
overvoltage (15+ Volts) which implies faulty equipment or improper
hookups, or do you mean a battery continues to get charging voltage
(about 14.4V) when it should go to a float charge? The latter is a
chronic problem of trying to charge several banks that are at
different charge states, and there is no simple answer without
considering the system in detail.

So Mic ... is this a friend of yours, or is it just a query that
someone posted on forum?

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 08:26:54 -0400, Jeff wrote:

Mic wrote:
This issue is from a cruiser 1/2 way around the world and via sailmail

From some research here are some Ideas and the message I sent.

...

Your last post seems to confuse the issue. I'm not sure of the
benefit of sending marketing info on items that your friend may or may
not have.

Actually I would consider it Tech. info. and rather relevant to the
boat they bought sometime ago with systems in place. The issue was to
determine the config. of their system and the particular elements in
it.

Without a bit more info its impossible to diagnose a problem like
this.

True, but I think there have been some ideas.

For instance, when you say "overcharging" to you mean serious
overvoltage (15+ Volts) which implies faulty equipment or improper
hookups, or do you mean a battery continues to get charging voltage
(about 14.4V) when it should go to a float charge?

Yep 15+volts, I would think it near impossible to really know when a
gel cell should go to float.

The latter is a
chronic problem of trying to charge several banks that are at
different charge states, and there is no simple answer without
considering the system in detail.

Yep.

So Mic ... is this a friend of yours, or is it just a query that
someone posted on forum?
No this was not a question posted on forum.

I think it is an interesting issue and have not found any relevant
material regarding overvoltage like this to a system. Obvious answer
in a simple system would be an adjustment of the reg., but not in this
instance. I think the issue is one of the sensing voltage and the
true config. of the system.

I guess what might help is that rather than what is...

But what should be given the fact of 2 alternators, 1 reg and 2 ?
battery sets what should be the proper config. ie where the sensing
voltage cable should be going, should all batteries be in parallel
when charging, etc.

Mic wrote:
On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 08:26:54 -0400, Jeff wrote:

Mic wrote:

This issue is from a cruiser 1/2 way around the world and via sailmail

From some research here are some Ideas and the message I sent.

...

Your last post seems to confuse the issue. I'm not sure of the
benefit of sending marketing info on items that your friend may or may
not have.

Actually I would consider it Tech. info. and rather relevant to the
boat they bought sometime ago with systems in place. The issue was to
determine the config. of their system and the particular elements in
it.

In other words, you have knowledge of what equipment is being used but
you're not sharing this with us?

Without a bit more info its impossible to diagnose a problem like
this.

True, but I think there have been some ideas.

For instance, when you say "overcharging" to you mean serious

overvoltage (15+ Volts) which implies faulty equipment or improper
hookups, or do you mean a battery continues to get charging voltage
(about 14.4V) when it should go to a float charge?

Yep 15+volts, I would think it near impossible to really know when a
gel cell should go to float.

The how is it that all the common 3-stage regulators claim that they
work with gel cells? I've never used gels, so I really don't know,
but I thought they would have troubles if overcharged.

The latter is a

chronic problem of trying to charge several banks that are at
different charge states, and there is no simple answer without
considering the system in detail.

Yep.

So Mic ... is this a friend of yours, or is it just a query that
someone posted on forum?

No this was not a question posted on forum.

I think it is an interesting issue and have not found any relevant
material regarding overvoltage like this to a system. Obvious answer
in a simple system would be an adjustment of the reg., but not in this
instance. I think the issue is one of the sensing voltage and the
true config. of the system.

I guess what might help is that rather than what is...

But what should be given the fact of 2 alternators, 1 reg and 2 ?

There is one regulator for two alternators? And there are two banks
banks that are kept separate? I'm not surprised there are problems.

battery sets what should be the proper config. ie where the sensing
voltage cable should be going, should all batteries be in parallel
when charging, etc.

If the sense wire is not on the battery being charged, its will not
work properly. That is the problem I had. Usually the combiner would
latch, but if it didn't, there could be an overvoltage.

BTW, it would help a lot if you took the extra few seconds to write
complete sentences.

Mic wrote:
On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 03:23:08 GMT, (Mic) wrote:

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 14:34:56 GMT, (Mic) wrote:

But what should be given the fact of 2 alternators, 1 reg and 2 ?
battery sets what should be the proper config. ie where the sensing
voltage cable should be going, should all batteries be in parallel
when charging, etc.

ANSWER
FYI
http://www.amplepower.com/wire/dual_alt/index.html

Two Engines ..... One Regulator

Bad idea, Mic, very bad. You just created two areas of single point
failure into a system intended to provide redundancy.

There may be some systems that can benefit from this, but when both
engines are running, there is usually more than enough power generated
to charge the batteries. In fact, I often reduce the alternator
output because my small engines can't push the boat at full speed and
charge at 100 Amps at the same time!

The bigger issue is often running on one engine, where the complex
wiring creates potential pitfalls, as I've mentioned. Also,
redundancy is important. Twin engines with twin charging systems has
come in handy on more than one occasion, reducing the affects of a
breakdown to a minor annoyance.

BTW, Balmar has there own version, which is designed to work with two
regulators. This makes a bit of sense if you have two identical
systems, since they can beat against each other at times. I never
encountered this problem when I had two smaller alternators; and now
that I have one large and one small, there's no problem in this regard.

http://www.amplepower.com/primer/twoeng/index.html

INCLUDING DIAGRAM

I belive that the answers to the questions can be found at the above
URL's.

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 07:59:31 -0400, Larry wrote:

(Mic) wrote in :

Two Engines ..... One Regulator

That's so if one regulator fails, both engine won't charge the boat.

NOT a good idea, eh?

The info. regarding this concept is by Ample Power not me.

Monohulls usually only have one engine, 1 alternator and 1 regulator.
Gee to figure out 2 alts. and 2 regs. with 2 sets of house batteries
with all that aftermarket gizmo's to intergrate...

Keep it simple, redundency is in your putt-putt 1000 watt portable
genny, solar panels and wind genny or aquagen. A much better
redundency system.

--
Larry

Mic wrote:
On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 07:59:31 -0400, Larry wrote:

(Mic) wrote in :

Two Engines ..... One Regulator

That's so if one regulator fails, both engine won't charge the boat.

NOT a good idea, eh?

The info. regarding this concept is by Ample Power not me.

Monohulls usually only have one engine, 1 alternator and 1 regulator.
Gee to figure out 2 alts. and 2 regs. with 2 sets of house batteries
with all that aftermarket gizmo's to intergrate...

Why would you have two house banks? A two engine system doesn't have
to be anymore complicated than one, though obvious a few costs go up.

Keep it simple, redundency is in your putt-putt 1000 watt portable
genny, solar panels and wind genny or aquagen. A much better
redundency system.

All good suggestions, but much better to have identical gear - easier
learning, more spare parts, etc. It takes a lot of panels to make a
difference, and wind power can be obnoxious in close quarters. I
might spring for a 2K genset (1K really doesn't do enough) but then I
have to carry gas as well as diesel. The reason I might get one is
that I could get some use out of it off the boat.

The issue here is that a multihull probably already has two
alternators and regulators. Taking out one regulator and replacing it
with a DAC is for many setups, a step backwards. For most boats it
simply isn't needed. Understanding how to hook up the wires is needed.