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Hydrocap - for lead acid batteries
http://store.solar-electric.com/hydrocaps.html
"A Hydrocap is a catalytic gas recombiner than converts hydrogen and oxygen gasses into pure water. A catalyst is a substance which encourages other substances into chemical change without actually participating in that change, sort of a chemical ambassador. The process occurring in the Hydrocap is similar to that occurring in an automotive catalytic converter." |
On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:29:28 -0400, Larry wrote:
Someone corrected me a while back. They said that PT Barnum never said, "There's one born every minute." I believe it was a friend of PT Barnum's who told him one day, "PT, if there were a sucker born every minute, you'd find a way to take his money." Mark E. Williams |
Maynard G. Krebbs wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:29:28 -0400, Larry wrote: Someone corrected me a while back. They said that PT Barnum never said, "There's one born every minute." I believe it was a friend of PT Barnum's who told him one day, "PT, if there were a sucker born every minute, you'd find a way to take his money." Mark E. Williams Hate to break the bad news, but the technology used in these hydrocaps DOES work and is based on sound engineering principles. They are kind of spendy though. |
Hydrocaps actually work. I check my batteries on a regular basis, but hardly
ever have to add any water. They should, however, be removed if you're going to equalize the cells. The excess hydrogen causes them to get hot. George, the designer and maker in Florida, has never marketed them very aggressively. Larry Janke, of Southeast Marine Services, in Scappoose, Oregon, sells Rolls marine batteries with Hydrocaps already installed. He advertises Rolls batteries in several sailing magazines. Rusty O "Maynard G. Krebbs" wrote in message ... On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:29:28 -0400, Larry wrote: Someone corrected me a while back. They said that PT Barnum never said, "There's one born every minute." I believe it was a friend of PT Barnum's who told him one day, "PT, if there were a sucker born every minute, you'd find a way to take his money." Mark E. Williams |
Doin it right wrote in
: Hate to break the bad news, but the technology used in these hydrocaps DOES work and is based on sound engineering principles. Hate to break the bad news to YOU, but hydrogen production in modern lead- acid batteries has dropped to near zero since we stopped using antimony to hold up the soft lead plates...many years ago. The alloys used to support the lead don't gas at all unless you overcharge the hell out of them. You guys watch too many WW2 submarine movies...(c; Notice how your car battery doesn't even have a vented cap any more? or your fancy schmanzy red AGM battery? -- Larry |
"Rusty" wrote in
: Hydrocaps actually work. I check my batteries on a regular basis, but hardly ever have to add any water. They should, however, be removed if you're going to equalize the cells. The excess hydrogen causes them to get hot. Me either! Let's test it on your batteries. Put half the regular caps back on half the cells and leave these wondrous gifts from God on the rest. See if there's any difference in water usage.....It's a fair test. -- Larry |
On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 11:53:07 -0400, Doin it right wrote:
Maynard G. Krebbs wrote: On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 19:29:28 -0400, Larry wrote: Someone corrected me a while back. They said that PT Barnum never said, "There's one born every minute." I believe it was a friend of PT Barnum's who told him one day, "PT, if there were a sucker born every minute, you'd find a way to take his money." Mark E. Williams Hate to break the bad news, but the technology used in these hydrocaps DOES work and is based on sound engineering principles. They are kind of spendy though. some people are just too cynical :-) Hydrocaps were also used in the manned submersible arena for a long long time and were mentioned in Frank Busby's Manned Submersibles book (pg 325) which was published in '76 ... so they've been around for quite some time. - Ed |
What do you mean by "equalize the cells" ?
What is the purpose? TIA, dummie On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 09:34:52 -0700, "Rusty" wrote: Hydrocaps actually work. I check my batteries on a regular basis, but hardly ever have to add any water. They should, however, be removed if you're going to equalize the cells. |
Larry wrote:
"Rusty" wrote in : Hydrocaps actually work. I check my batteries on a regular basis, but hardly ever have to add any water. They should, however, be removed if you're going to equalize the cells. The excess hydrogen causes them to get hot. Me either! Let's test it on your batteries. Put half the regular caps back on half the cells and leave these wondrous gifts from God on the rest. See if there's any difference in water usage.....It's a fair test. Geez larry, what's the problem? Got issues with technology or something? I've used hydrocaps for 2 years. Prior to that, I checked the batteries weekly and topped them up about once a month. I was and am very careful, maintaining proper float and bulk charge voltages at all times. Hydrocaps reduced my need to top up to about once every 6 months or so, and much less water needed. It can be difficult to find distilled water in some (more remote) places, so the added advantage of not having to carry distilled water is also attractive. And YES, when equalizing they come off, and I top up the cells afterwards too. I equlaize about every 5 or 6 months when it dawns on me. I probably should do it more often. |
In article , Larry
wrote: Me either! Let's test it on your batteries. Put half the regular caps back on half the cells and leave these wondrous gifts from God on the rest. See if there's any difference in water usage.....It's a fair test. -- Larry Been there, done that... HydroCaps do work as advertised. The cataylst is a small platinum foil plate, that causes the Hydrogen and Oxygen to recombine and fall back into the Battery Cell. Used my 800 Amp/Hr 24Vdc Bank of L16's to run the test. Two strings of 4, in parallel, one sting with regular caps and one string with HydroCaps. Watered the Banks on about a 4 to one basis over a year. Banks cycled down to 80% capacity, on a twice a day (24Hrs) Basis, with my Trace 4024 doing the charging and being the load. After the end of a year, I bought another 16 Hydrocaps, and that bank lasted 10 years and still had 75% capacity when they were replaced. Never had as good of service since. Bruce in alaska -- add a 2 before @ |
Doin it right wrote in
: Hydrocaps reduced my need to top up to about once every 6 months or so, and much less water needed. It can be difficult to find distilled water in some (more remote) places, so the added advantage of not having to carry distilled water is also attractive. If your battery banks are using water, you need to check your fully-charged float voltage, not the battery vent caps. Back off .2V on your float charger's top end setting and they'll stop overcharging. You shouldn't have to top off the batteries more than once a year if the setting is correct. Everyone should be carrying distilled water....for drinking as well as batteries....You'll live longer. -- Larry |
In article , Larry
wrote: "Rusty" wrote in : Hydrocaps actually work. I check my batteries on a regular basis, but hardly ever have to add any water. They should, however, be removed if you're going to equalize the cells. The excess hydrogen causes them to get hot. Me either! Let's test it on your batteries. Put half the regular caps back on half the cells and leave these wondrous gifts from God on the rest. See if there's any difference in water usage.....It's a fair test. We're doing just that, although it's two different batteries. The usual ones need a top off every once in a while, the one with some sort of tech up there hasn't yet, and it's the primary bank, worked hard every weekend. (From that experience, I'm not going with WalMart-type batteries again. They're too expensive.) -- Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
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Len wrote in
: http://www.megapulse.net/ Vector 1093A is a 2/10/20/40 amp computerized battery charger with switching power supply. It has a pulse-type better reconditioner built into it that actually does rejuvenate an old battery back to life. It takes 24 hours of its cycling to complete, when its computer shuts the process down automatically. As a charger, it is great UNLESS the battery is just dead dead, at which time it refuses to start charging it. To charge those, I put "Old Reliable", my 10A Shumaker SCR charger on it for a couple of hours to give it a starting kick, then the Vector can complete the job....after stupid me left the interior lights on in the car...grrr. You can buy the smaller Vector 2/10/35A without the rejuvenator from Waste Marine for $130 or $140....or you can get this better model from any WalMart for $89 on the battery rack in the auto department (and lie to your mates telling them you got it at Waste Marine..(c;). I'm sure Megapulse is just a lot smaller pulse charger. The Vector is quite large with very large cables to handle 40A reliably. It has automatic fan cooling for its electronics. -- Larry |
Larry;
I've already done that. The 750 amp-hour 24 volt main system of Trojan industrial cells is charged by a Trace SW4024 inverter/charger. Went two years without HydroCaps and added at least some water every month. Changed to HydroCaps and now I only add a little bit after every six to eight months. Right now the last time I added water was almost nine months ago and they're still full. Batteries are showing no signs of losing capacity and the tops are always clean. Rusty "Larry" wrote in message ... "Rusty" wrote in : Hydrocaps actually work. I check my batteries on a regular basis, but hardly ever have to add any water. They should, however, be removed if you're going to equalize the cells. The excess hydrogen causes them to get hot. Me either! Let's test it on your batteries. Put half the regular caps back on half the cells and leave these wondrous gifts from God on the rest. See if there's any difference in water usage.....It's a fair test. -- Larry |
Larry;
I've already done that. The 750 amp-hour 24 volt main system of Trojan industrial cells is charged by a Trace SW4024 inverter/charger. Went two years without HydroCaps and added at least some water every month. Changed to HydroCaps and now I only add a little bit after every six to eight months. Right now the last time I added water was almost nine months ago and they're still full. Batteries are showing no signs of losing capacity and the tops are always clean. Rusty "Larry" wrote in message ... "Rusty" wrote in : Hydrocaps actually work. I check my batteries on a regular basis, but hardly ever have to add any water. They should, however, be removed if you're going to equalize the cells. The excess hydrogen causes them to get hot. Me either! Let's test it on your batteries. Put half the regular caps back on half the cells and leave these wondrous gifts from God on the rest. See if there's any difference in water usage.....It's a fair test. -- Larry |
"Rusty" wrote in
: I've already done that. The 750 amp-hour 24 volt main system of Trojan industrial cells is charged by a Trace SW4024 inverter/charger. Went two years without HydroCaps and added at least some water every month. Changed to HydroCaps and now I only add a little bit after every six to eight months. Right now the last time I added water was almost nine months ago and they're still full. Batteries are showing no signs of losing capacity and the tops are always clean. Rusty While I'm sure the caps do exactly what they are supposed to, that's fine. But, the reason the batteries are using water in the first place, i.e. being overcharged, isn't resolved when you keep gassing off the water with the overcharging, to recover it in these magicaps. At your "full charge" voltage setting you should rarely see a bubble coming out of the electrolyte. 14.2 seems too high on some cells. When the specific gravity gets to 1.260-1.270, the charger should be OFF, not pulsing away momentarily unless there is some load on them. -- Larry |
Fk me crookid. I get T-105's for $60, maybe some pay $75. It is worth
it to spend more than a third more battery capacity or budget on freaking caps, even if they happen to work perfectly (not according to their own info), to avoid a few breif insepctions, top-ups & maybe avoid carefully adjusting charging rate? What is the life-cycle cost of your batteries? For the cost of caps for only 2 banks, you can buy another whole new bank that has 3x the stated service life of the caps. If one did this sort of thing a few times with a vessel they were tasked to responsibly manage for another owner, they'd be fired. |
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On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 23:14:06 -0400, Larry wrote:
"Rusty" wrote in : I've already done that. The 750 amp-hour 24 volt main system of Trojan industrial cells is charged by a Trace SW4024 inverter/charger. Went two years without HydroCaps and added at least some water every month. Changed to HydroCaps and now I only add a little bit after every six to eight months. Right now the last time I added water was almost nine months ago and they're still full. Batteries are showing no signs of losing capacity and the tops are always clean. Rusty While I'm sure the caps do exactly what they are supposed to, that's fine. But, the reason the batteries are using water in the first place, i.e. being overcharged, isn't resolved when you keep gassing off the water with the overcharging, to recover it in these magicaps. At your "full charge" voltage setting you should rarely see a bubble coming out of the electrolyte. 14.2 seems too high on some cells. When the specific gravity gets to 1.260-1.270, the charger should be OFF, not pulsing away momentarily unless there is some load on them. Larry, I've always enjoyed your posts and the knowledge you clearly have. However, I think you need to study up on batteries a little more. Batteries will always loose some water, even without overcharging. Rather, I should say batteries are always slightly overcharged as a practical matter. If you charged below the gassing voltage- say 13.8 volts, the amount of extra charging time required to top-off the batteries is extreme. Charging at say 14.5 volts (standard for solar charging) and letting them gas a little shaves a heck of allot of time off the charging time- thus the costs as well. Controlled slight gassing is also good for the batteries as it prevents the electrolyte for stratifying in the cells. Battery manufactures recommend that the batteries are charged at voltages that will do just this, when in cycled service. The only time you don't want to charge above gassing voltage is batteries used in float/standby service. Hydrocaps also solve the problems of loosing water to evaporation and the problem of losing the acid, thus weakening the electrolyte. They also virtually eliminate dirty acid covered and dirty battery tops. Hydrocaps are expensive, but well worth the costs. Shop around, as there can be a significant discount at some shops. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) |
On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:40:20 GMT, Me wrote:
In article .com, wrote: Fk me crookid. I get T-105's for $60, maybe some pay $75. It is worth it to spend more than a third more battery capacity or budget on freaking caps, even if they happen to work perfectly (not according to their own info), to avoid a few breif insepctions, top-ups & maybe avoid carefully adjusting charging rate? What is the life-cycle cost of your batteries? For the cost of caps for only 2 banks, you can buy another whole new bank that has 3x the stated service life of the caps. If one did this sort of thing a few times with a vessel they were tasked to responsibly manage for another owner, they'd be fired. all this would be true, EXCEPT the HydroCaps aren't a "Wear item", and once you buy a set they don't need to be replaced. Actually they do eventually wear out. But if taken care of (don't leave them on during equalizing charges!) they can last through multiple battery sets. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) |
Me wrote:
all this would be true, EXCEPT the HydroCaps aren't a "Wear item", and once you buy a set they don't need to be replaced. The product's own information disagrees with you. |
Brent Geery wrote:
Charging at say 14.5 volts (standard for solar charging) and letting them gas a little shaves a heck of allot of time off the charging time- thus the costs as well. It is unclear what costs saving accrue with solar charging. Controlled slight gassing is also good for the batteries as it prevents the electrolyte for stratifying in the cells. Battery manufactures recommend that the batteries are charged at voltages that will do just this, when in cycled service. The only time you don't want to charge above gassing voltage is batteries used in float/standby service. True. Hydrocaps also solve the problems of loosing water to evaporation and the problem of losing the acid, thus weakening the electrolyte. Losing acid? Elaborate. They also virtually eliminate dirty acid covered and dirty battery tops. Hydrocaps are expensive, but well worth the costs. Shop around, as there can be a significant discount at some shops. Surely a *significant* discount could alter the picture in terms of eliminating periodic cleaning problems alone - an ongoing contamination & labor item worth getting rid of. Yet Hydrocaps are not seen in industrial banks, and one would reasonably expect competitive versions of a simple platium catalyst vented & draining knob, yes? |
(Brent Geery) wrote in
: Larry, I've always enjoyed your posts and the knowledge you clearly have. However, I think you need to study up on batteries a little more. Ok..... Batteries will always loose some water, even without overcharging. Rather, I should say batteries are always slightly overcharged as a practical matter. If you charged below the gassing voltage- say 13.8 volts, the amount of extra charging time required to top-off the batteries is extreme. Charging at say 14.5 volts (standard for solar charging) and letting them gas a little shaves a heck of allot of time off the charging time- thus the costs as well. I never said they wouldn't. But sitting out in the yard are two L-16s in the driver's footwell of my mobile electronics shop that don't sit at the dock condo for months on overcharge. They work every day and have for over 2 years, now. There is a simple marine on-off 650A switch that parallels them with the two AGM starting batteries for the 6.2L GM diesel engine, so one alternator can charge everyone, another myth blown all to hell. If you go check their temperature-compensated specific gravity, you'll find all cells at 1.250-60, a full charge. They'll power the mobile DJ power amps all night, no problem....loud! They are NOT charged by a constantly switching on and off charger, 24/7/365, like the dock condo. I have not checked the electrolyte in a "few months", but you'll find there is more than enough to submerge all the plates, without expensive caps. I water them with distilled I make for drinking about every 6 months. L16s are big batteries. They will drink about 2 quarts in 6 months, and be halfway between "full" and the top of the plates. As long as the plates are submerged, batteries are fine. Your premise of overcharging them to reduce the charging time it takes to replenish them is simply not true. NONE of these house batteries can be recharged in 2 hours at 200 amps....Battery chemistry doesn't work like that, I'm sorry to say. Controlled slight gassing is also good for the batteries as it prevents the electrolyte for stratifying in the cells. Battery manufactures recommend that the batteries are charged at voltages that will do just this, when in cycled service. The only time you don't want to charge above gassing voltage is batteries used in float/standby service. If your boat is a dock condo in a very quiet marina, I suppose you could talk the electrolyte into stratifying. But, alas, on boats USED, as they're supposed to be, I'd bet those 6' swells that beat my head against the bulkhead while trying to stay seated on the head and hanging on for dear life PROBABLY will prevent that from happening at 25 degrees of heel. It prevents my stomach contents from 'stratifying' I'd like to report, also! Dock condos don't even need batteries....do they? Hydrocaps also solve the problems of loosing water to evaporation and the problem of losing the acid, thus weakening the electrolyte. They also virtually eliminate dirty acid covered and dirty battery tops. I never saw the acid "evaporate". I saw the water evaporate, but not the acid. The "dirty acid covered" battery tops is from you filling the battery up way to the top then gassing it with your 14.5 volt constant overcharging! That's how your acid is escaping.... I never "fill" a battery I'm charging regularly to the mark. Halfway between the plates and "full" is plenty, and allows for electrolyte expansion from the heating and recovery of sulfuric acid from the dissolved lead sulphate during the charging process. The top of the L16s sloshing around in a wooden box in the stepvan shop is as clean as the new ones. Of course, I don't heel as far because it would flip over...(c; Hydrocaps are expensive, but well worth the costs. Shop around, as there can be a significant discount at some shops. Excellent. While researching Hydrocaps, I came upon an interesting solar website with other technology discussing the differences in both. Read: http://store.solar-electric.com/ba****miscap.html This same vendor sells Hydrocaps for $10: http://store.solar-electric.com/hydrocaps.html The solar store also makes an interesting statement: "Hydrocaps will not last forever, though - life will vary from 2 years to 8 years, depending on charge rates and how they are treated. If left on during battery equalization, they can be quickly used up and/or ruined." Notice how it also tells you about combining O2 and H2 recovering water, but says nothing about what the effect of acid ingestion into the cap causes. Hmm....What happens if I pour dilute sulphuric acid on platinum muffler beads? Well, back to the lab...(c; Is there a Platinum sulphate? Sound reasonable. Should be a stable salt. -- Larry |
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wrote in
oups.com: k me crookid. I get T-105's for $60, maybe some pay $75. It is worth it to spend more than a third more battery capacity or budget on freaking caps, even if they happen to work perfectly (not according to their own info), to avoid a few breif insepctions, top-ups & maybe avoid carefully adjusting charging rate? I found more interesting information. It seems that when you need the caps the MOST, you're supposed to remove them to save them??!! From website: http://lists.samurai.com/pipermail/t...awlering/2004- June/076584.html "Thanks for the Battery Equalization & Hydrocaps post of Wed, 2 Jun 2004 I was interested so I did some Internet research on hydrocaps. All of the venders for Hydrocaps (Hydro-Caps)that I found recommend that the caps be removed during high levels of charging and battery equalizing. High levels of charging/battery gassing will result in the catylator in the cap being damaged or prematurely worn out. Limited use -- If I was recharging my golf cart battery bank at 100+ amps, I would have to remove the hydrocaps to prevent damaging them. Since, the caps are designed for low charging rates, wouldn't this severely limit their use." I guess if you START THE 100A ALTERNATOR ON THE DIESEL on a dead house battery, you may RUIN them?....WTF??? -- Larry |
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Hi Larry,
I'm not going to get into a long debate about the value of Hydrocaps. They work as advertised, and people can decide if what Hydrocaps do is worth the cost. Al has been said on both sides of the argument. For those that can't justify the costs of Hydrocaps, *a least* get yourself some "Water Miser" caps for your batteries. They provide much of the value of Hydrocaps, are cheaper, and last forever. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) |
Larry wrote:
The solar store also makes an interesting statement: "Hydrocaps will not last forever, though - life will vary from 2 years to 8 years, depending on charge rates and how they are treated. If left on during battery equalization, they can be quickly used up and/or ruined." Notice how it also tells you about combining O2 and H2 recovering water, but says nothing about what the effect of acid ingestion into the cap causes. The sales site I read did - it said if you slop electrolyte up into 'em you'll puke 'em. These fans *have* to be talking about their dock condos & fla****er party platforms, yes? Unless the catalyst got pooped early on & the cap design happens to hold & recondense water droplets better that other caps. When the batteries are kept too full, by the way. ;-) I can also attest that I once destroyed my shoreside house bank by subjecting it to a nice/new/expensive/famous 24/7/365 4-stage autofloat marine charger, these things float too high and programmed-stepping PWM switching is NOT the be-all/end-all of battery care. It is only the be-all of profits in the battery care product biz. IMHO & 40+yrsE the best battery bank condition & longest life is only obtained by having it owned or maintained by an intelligent, not-lazy person with a hydrometer, distillate & ordinary charging equipment. And yes, people have been parallel charging unequal banks for generations, do ya think? But then, we just can't open up that whole can of worms with its costly & arcane electronic monitoring panels to play with, and the highly-analyzed system specs which are accurately approximate but worshipped, right? It would be very unpopular, and the Model M Poppin' Johnny also DOES drive much better with an ECM & emission controls backfitted too, yes? IMHO the true joke, is that the people have lost sight of where higher technology is precious vs where it is unnecessary garbage that subtracts from results & provides illusions. "Honey, how many amp-hours are left (or lying to us again) on the Link 2000?"barf. :-) - f. |
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