fiberglass [boat] longevity ?
 

I was wondering if there is any new/current data on the durability of
fiberglass boats, in that some of these are now pushing 50 years old ?

I realize that some variables are solid/cored; maintained/neglected;
hot/cool climate; sailed hard/marina squatters; original layup
schedule; etc., but......

if the glass is maintained with a 'proper' coat thus shielding it from UV
degradation as well as water intrusion, and was originally sufficiently
constructed to minimize mechanical deterioration such as flexing, and the
boat is not exposed to serious man-made pollutants, what would degrade the
hull, and at what rate ? Ergo, what is life expectancy ?

Does it appear that...using a car as analogy...that as long as you're
willing to maintain it, i.e. replace parts, etc., it'll run forever, or is
it like... the car's rusting and no matter what, it'll eventually be a
goner ?

That is, if it's kept barrier coated against UV and water intrusion, and
internal structures are maintained AND were originally sufficient, what's
gonna kill 'er ?

Cordially,
Courtney

Courtney Thomas wrote:
I was wondering if there is any new/current data on the durability of
fiberglass boats, in that some of these are now pushing 50 years old ?

I realize that some variables are solid/cored; maintained/neglected;
hot/cool climate; sailed hard/marina squatters; original layup
schedule; etc., but......

if the glass is maintained with a 'proper' coat thus shielding it from UV
degradation as well as water intrusion, and was originally sufficiently
constructed to minimize mechanical deterioration such as flexing, and the
boat is not exposed to serious man-made pollutants, what would degrade the
hull, and at what rate ? Ergo, what is life expectancy ?

Does it appear that...using a car as analogy...that as long as you're
willing to maintain it, i.e. replace parts, etc., it'll run forever, or is
it like... the car's rusting and no matter what, it'll eventually be a
goner ?

That is, if it's kept barrier coated against UV and water intrusion, and
internal structures are maintained AND were originally sufficient, what's
gonna kill 'er ?

Cordially,
Courtney



I think the honest answer to how long fiberglass will last is "Nobody
knows". I have a 1962 Fiberglass runabout in my garage, I intend to
restore someday. there is no sign of glass deterioration (but the wooden
bulkheads are rotted)

Read the following for a little history

http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/BirthofFiberglass.htm

Courtney Thomas wrote in
:

what's
gonna kill 'er ?



The old fiberglass boats were made of many layers of carefully hand-laid
fiberglass, glass mat saturated with epoxy. But, as the accountants
replaced the boat builders when outside companies, like Brunswick for
instance, bought up the company names the boat builders had carefully
guarded with high quality hulls, the accountants started whittling away at
costs trying to squeeze every profit dollar they could out of the boats.
Quality, of course, suffered. Boat hulls became thinner and thinner. We
could save a bundle if we stopped using fiberglass, which is expensive, so
much. Hulls, like the decks above them, became cored with all kinds of
crap from foam to plywood to balsa wood to something now that looks like
putty (http://www.yachtsurvey.com/Fiberglass_Boats.htm shows what Sea Ray
has done, gelcoat on the outside, putty then one lay of fiberglass trying
to fool the surveyors into thinking it's fiberglass. Look at the pictures.
It ain't fiberglass, much)

Boaters, some of the cheapest cheapskates on the planet, always looking for
a real bargain, fell in love with the cheapest of the cheap, Bayliner,
which is SO successful it nearly put the others, the quality small boats,
out of business. Boaters share in the blame for what the hulls have
become...

New boats made of poprivets, putty and plastic are designed to last to the
end of the payment books....like everything else America creates.

Pieces of CRAP!

--
Larry

Just a point of reference: I have a 1970 Coronado that has been uncovered
its entire life. I have just stripped it entirely to facilitate repainting
and refinishing all the interior wood. There is no sign of fiberglass/resin
deterioration and very little crazing. I am told the older boats had better
materials, and perhaps it is so.

Bob Swarts

"Courtney Thomas" wrote in message
. ..
I was wondering if there is any new/current data on the durability of
fiberglass boats, in that some of these are now pushing 50 years old ?

I realize that some variables are solid/cored; maintained/neglected;
hot/cool climate; sailed hard/marina squatters; original layup
schedule; etc., but......

if the glass is maintained with a 'proper' coat thus shielding it from UV
degradation as well as water intrusion, and was originally sufficiently
constructed to minimize mechanical deterioration such as flexing, and the
boat is not exposed to serious man-made pollutants, what would degrade the
hull, and at what rate ? Ergo, what is life expectancy ?

Does it appear that...using a car as analogy...that as long as you're
willing to maintain it, i.e. replace parts, etc., it'll run forever, or is
it like... the car's rusting and no matter what, it'll eventually be a
goner ?

That is, if it's kept barrier coated against UV and water intrusion, and
internal structures are maintained AND were originally sufficient, what's
gonna kill 'er ?

Cordially,
Courtney

no no no no
Those older hand laid boats are of INFERIOR strength in comparison to
'modern' composites.
The problem with older hand laid boats is that the layup crew only
worked 8 hours per day, leaving the various schedules to 'cure' before
applying the next layers. Plus if the layers got too thick the heat
generated accelerated the cure and forced a 'rest' until the substrate
returned to 'normal' temperatures.

Just about everone nowadays will agree that new polyester doesnt adhere
to 'old' cured polyester.

So the resulr was poor bond strength between the layers of layup ----
comparatively POOR structure. Plus by itself polyester resin isnt very
strong and the lay-ups contained "too much resin" - another
'weakening'.

Nowadays, good yards will use refrigeration and will continuously
lay-up until the job is completely done - nonstop. Plus, they employ
vacuum bagging, etc. which ensures the correct ratio of glass to resin
- yields the strongest (probably longest lasting) structure..

Cosmetically, gelcoat is very porous and unless continuously waxed to
seal the 'pores' will ultimately oxidize very deep into the gel ......
'aligator' (micro-cracks). Plus the wax will ultimately change
chemical composition and then increase the oxidiation of the gelcoat.
The remedy for life preservation of surface gelcoat is to wax often and
also 'strip' and remove the old dead wax periodically by 'caustic
strippers', then rewax. The 'stripping' probably needed at every 18
months minimum ....... or ultimately the gelcoat will oxidize deeply
and then you form 'alligatoring'' - but you need at least a pocket
microscope to find it.



In article , Larry
wrote:

Courtney Thomas wrote in
:

what's
gonna kill 'er ?



The old fiberglass boats were made of many layers of carefully hand-laid
fiberglass, glass mat saturated with epoxy. But, as the accountants
replaced the boat builders when outside companies, like Brunswick for
instance, bought up the company names the boat builders had carefully
guarded with high quality hulls, the accountants started whittling away at
costs trying to squeeze every profit dollar they could out of the boats.
Quality, of course, suffered. Boat hulls became thinner and thinner. We
could save a bundle if we stopped using fiberglass, which is expensive, so
much. Hulls, like the decks above them, became cored with all kinds of
crap from foam to plywood to balsa wood to something now that looks like
putty (http://www.yachtsurvey.com/Fiberglass_Boats.htm shows what Sea Ray
has done, gelcoat on the outside, putty then one lay of fiberglass trying
to fool the surveyors into thinking it's fiberglass. Look at the pictures.
It ain't fiberglass, much)

Boaters, some of the cheapest cheapskates on the planet, always looking for
a real bargain, fell in love with the cheapest of the cheap, Bayliner,
which is SO successful it nearly put the others, the quality small boats,
out of business. Boaters share in the blame for what the hulls have
become...

New boats made of poprivets, putty and plastic are designed to last to the
end of the payment books....like everything else America creates.

Pieces of CRAP!

Could be that the boat simply sat in a marinia for most of its life and
never had the hull stressed as a boat that was sailed a lot.

Rich Hampel wrote:
no no no no
Those older hand laid boats are of INFERIOR strength in comparison to
'modern' composites.
snip
I'm not sure you can make such a blanket statement of condemnation of
the quality of older boats. When I was picking up my vintage '66 HR28
in the yard, I noticed a mid-eighties Beneteau being stripped of hull
exterior and core from waterline to waterline aft of the keel. Poor
quality materials leading to failure. Granted that's only one boat, but
I have seen many more "modern" boats undergoing this type of radical
surgery than older ones. My understanding is that pre-70's oil embargo
boats were built with a type of resin that was superior to that
available post-70's. Your comments about an 8 hr workday and curing
times may be true, but another consideration is that as an emerging
technology, builders just didn't know how strong fibreglass was/is and
tended to overbuild. I found out putting a depthsounder into my hull
that there are sections of solid glass almost 3cm thick where the hull
flares toward the keel. As far as gelcoat is concerned, mine is in
shockingly good condition for being a 39 year old boat, with no signs of
spidering or crazing.

At any rate some are convinced of the strength and reliability of older
boats like the HR28 such as these two guys for instance. If your French
isn't any good, the one guy went to South Africa and back without a
motor, and the other guy is currently doing a non-stop there and back
across the North Atlantic.

http://petitdelire.com/

http://www.cafesmersdusud.com/oceanothon.htm

Rich Hampel wrote in
:

no no no no
Those older hand laid boats are of INFERIOR strength in comparison to
'modern' composites.


Those old boats were just awful. One old 38 Hatteras got loose during one
of Charleston's near miss hurricanes, floated out of its marina and nearly
beat the bridge in half next to the marina before the storm was over. Its
flybridge and bimini was pretty trashed but not one drop of water was in
her bilge from any hull failure. The creosote poles she was beating
against in fairly heavy waves were sheared off!

Let's test your theory with a brand new 40' Brunswick Boat made of these
wonderful materials like is in the webpage I quoted. How about let's play
fair and use a new Sea Ray, not just a Bayliner. I'll call when the next
storm comes in. SCDOT replaced the poles with new ones for the test,
already.

I'd ride safely on that old Hat anyplace.....
--
Larry

Courtney Thomas wrote:
I was wondering if there is any new/current data on the durability of
fiberglass boats, in that some of these are now pushing 50 years old ?


Are you asking about how long the hull will last, or how long the whole
boat can be expected to be a viable & worthy sailing vessel?

Fiberglass basically lasts forever. But many many old boats (and a lot
of not-so-old ones) have already become poxed enough to be chainsawed &
landfilled, and unpleasant labor-intensive expensive task.

Replacing core is fairly routine. I know of old boat that have had the
tabbing renewed, and in a few cases very dedicated owners have replaced
whole bulkheads. The work involved is far more than the boat's market
value would justify, but to them it's worth it. So the answer to your
question really is, the boat will last as long as it's worth it to you.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

In article ,
DSK wrote:

Courtney Thomas wrote:
I was wondering if there is any new/current data on the durability of
fiberglass boats, in that some of these are now pushing 50 years old ?


Are you asking about how long the hull will last, or how long the whole
boat can be expected to be a viable & worthy sailing vessel?

Fiberglass basically lasts forever. But many many old boats (and a lot
of not-so-old ones) have already become poxed enough to be chainsawed &
landfilled, and unpleasant labor-intensive expensive task.

Replacing core is fairly routine. I know of old boat that have had the
tabbing renewed, and in a few cases very dedicated owners have replaced
whole bulkheads. The work involved is far more than the boat's market
value would justify, but to them it's worth it. So the answer to your
question really is, the boat will last as long as it's worth it to you.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King


33 years after being laid, our hull's original gelcoat glowed this
spring when I polished it. I do it every 4-5 years whether she needs it
or not. Hull and keel are still solid.

Topsides is a little rough as we have some non-structural delamination
that I haven't finished fixing and the previous owner's paint died. I'd
rather sail than work.

The big problem was that I allowed the main bulkhead to rot. Cost me
about US$300 in materials and a couple of weekends' work. Should last
another thirty or so years.

I see no reason to believe that she won't outlast me, and a sistership
that was better-maintained most of her life looks even better.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Jere Lull wrote:
33 years after being laid, our hull's original gelcoat glowed this
spring when I polished it.

Well, sure.


Topsides is a little rough as we have some non-structural delamination
that I haven't finished fixing and the previous owner's paint died. I'd
rather sail than work.


For us, seems to come & go in cycles... right now we're in a work cycle,
an apparently endless loop of projects which lead to the boat getting
better & better, eventually one of us gets fed up and says 'Let's go for
a boat ride today.'



The big problem was that I allowed the main bulkhead to rot. Cost me
about US$300 in materials and a couple of weekends' work. Should last
another thirty or so years.


You mean the bulkhead(s) under the chainplates? Not uncommon... try
replacing the aft station bulkhead. Maybe your boat is laid out such
that you don't have to tear out too much of the cabin, which is good.

I've helped replace partial bulkheads under mast steps & chainplates,
usually that's not too big a job.

One of the boats that I know of, on which the owner is replacing the
bulkhead(s), the boat had to be placed in a specially built cradle and
about 90% of the interior removed. I'm not sure he's finished yet, in fact.


I see no reason to believe that she won't outlast me, and a sistership
that was better-maintained most of her life looks even better.


Looks ain't everything ;)

One of the good things about fiberglass is that it has a very high
load-cycle life... in other words, it doesn't weaken with fatigue the
same way that metal does. If stressed to the point of flexing, even a
little bit, it does fatigue, but can go many many times more than metal.
One of the reason why it's said 'fiberglass is forever.'

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Hey Guys,

Speaking of delamination and repairs, I'd appreciate your advice on
how to proceed on some repairs to my 1979 Catalina 27.

The standing rigging on the boat consists of three stainless cables
on each side, with the middle cable attached to the center bulkhead
and running over a single spreader to the top of the mast. The fore
and aft cables run from an aluminum plate at the bottom of the spreader
to the deck. This is just the rig that keeps the mast from moving side
to side of course.

The problem is that the deck around the aft cables is losing its strength
due to a delamination occuring underneath the side window. The deck is
still very sound to walk on, but no longer has the strength to take the
large tension loads from the rigging. The problem is only with the aft
cables.

We have been sailing the boat this way for years. When you are well
heeled over, the aft cable on the weather side of the boat will be tight, and
the other side will be loose, showing that the deck is giving by 1/2" or
so.

It seems to me that the rigging would be better attached to the hull,
instead of to the deck, and I've seen boats that were built that way.

The boat needs the deck re-gelled, or re-painted anyway, so I could route
out panels around the soft part and relaminate those areas before finishing.
There is a little problem with no-skid pattern in the area of the repair.

Another approach that I've considered is to custom fabricate four stainless
steel plates to throughbolt on either side of the hull. The inner plate
on each side would have an eye for connecting the standing rigging. I would
then run a turnbuckle from the backing plate on the bottom of the deck to
the eye on the inside stainless plate, and tension it such that the deck did
not have any load from the rigging. This would be much stronger
than the original design, although it does also provide a potential leak
source when the boat is heeled way over.

It seems that the deck is strong enough that with the water ingress stopped
(which it is), and the loading removed it would be serviceable for a long time.

What do you think?

Don W.



DSK wrote:
Jere Lull wrote:
Topsides is a little rough as we have some non-structural delamination
that I haven't finished fixing and the previous owner's paint died.
I'd rather sail than work.


For us, seems to come & go in cycles... right now we're in a work cycle,
an apparently endless loop of projects which lead to the boat getting
better & better, eventually one of us gets fed up and says 'Let's go for
a boat ride today.'

The big problem was that I allowed the main bulkhead to rot. Cost me
about US$300 in materials and a couple of weekends' work. Should last
another thirty or so years.


You mean the bulkhead(s) under the chainplates? Not uncommon... try
replacing the aft station bulkhead. Maybe your boat is laid out such
that you don't have to tear out too much of the cabin, which is good.

I've helped replace partial bulkheads under mast steps & chainplates,
usually that's not too big a job.

In article ,
Don W wrote:

Speaking of delamination and repairs, I'd appreciate your advice on
how to proceed on some repairs to my 1979 Catalina 27.

snip of a fairly standard rig
The problem is that the deck around the aft cables is losing its
strength due to a delamination occuring underneath the side window.
The deck is still very sound to walk on, but no longer has the
strength to take the large tension loads from the rigging. The
problem is only with the aft cables.

WHOA! I wouldn't diagnose that one long distance, though I believe I
know what you're saying.

Get a surveyor or, better, naval engineer to take a careful look and
recommend the method. Perhaps (probably?) he'll recommend a change to
the rigging and attachments.

Our surveyor (also a NA) told us how to do ours, and how serious it was
("maybe next year, perhaps" In other words, not an issue unless I saw
certain indicators). One factor is that very little load is carried by
our deck; it's almost all carried internally.

I don't believe yours is trivial. Frankly, I think you've been lucky.

The area can be stressed to several tons under certain conditions. Doing
it right will probably be a once in a lifetime fix if you correct the
original error(s). Doing it wrong could lose you a rig at exactly the
wrong time.

[is there a good time to lose the rig?]

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Jere Lull wrote:

WHOA! I wouldn't diagnose that one long distance, though I believe I
know what you're saying.

Get a surveyor or, better, naval engineer to take a careful look and
recommend the method. Perhaps (probably?) he'll recommend a change to
the rigging and attachments.

Our surveyor (also a NA) told us how to do ours, and how serious it was
("maybe next year, perhaps" In other words, not an issue unless I saw
certain indicators). One factor is that very little load is carried by
our deck; it's almost all carried internally.

It may be problematic to find a good surveyor in Austin TX since it is
so far from the ocean. We do have a fairly active yacht club so I'll
ask around. I'm a licensed engineer, and I do have a good feeling for
the loading. IMHO, the catalina rig design is weak in this area from the
factory. Thats why I suspect that the best fix is to take the load down
to the hull, and relieve the deck. I agree that it would be good to have
and experienced surveyor or naval engineer scope it out as well.

I don't believe yours is trivial. Frankly, I think you've been lucky.

So far, so good ;-)

The area can be stressed to several tons under certain conditions. Doing
it right will probably be a once in a lifetime fix if you correct the
original error(s). Doing it wrong could lose you a rig at exactly the
wrong time.

Yep. We plan on selling her eventually and moving to a larger blue water
capable boat, but I don't want to pass the problem on to the next suc... uh
owner.

[is there a good time to lose the rig?]

No. Only worse times ;-)

Thanks for your input Jere,

Don W.