AutoPilot Vs. Furling
 

On a sailing craft which purchase would be a priority an AutoPilot or
a furling (head sail)? And why?

Most used boats that come with furling rigs dont include an AP that I
have seen. Probably because it is eaiser to sell the AP than remove
the furling and replace with a head stay. But there arent that many
tiller AP for sale either....

If economically I had a choice between a furling or an AP, I would
choose an AP. Considering the useage to be daysails and 2-3 or 4 day
excursions. Its alot more energy and time to steer
than to change sails.

BTW I dont consider a tiller tamer an AP.

In (Mic) writes:

On a sailing craft which purchase would be a priority an AutoPilot or
a furling (head sail)? And why?

Most used boats that come with furling rigs dont include an AP that I
have seen. Probably because it is eaiser to sell the AP than remove
the furling and replace with a head stay. But there arent that many
tiller AP for sale either....

If economically I had a choice between a furling or an AP, I would
choose an AP. Considering the useage to be daysails and 2-3 or 4 day
excursions. Its alot more energy and time to steer
than to change sails.

BTW I dont consider a tiller tamer an AP.

I would choose the autopilot before the furling gear. Then I would
choose a proper windwane before the furling gear. The furling gear is a
gadget designed to helpo you with a problem that does not exist. In a
small boat to hoist and douse the jib is never a problem. (If you have a
60 footer, you do not have to ask whichone yuou can afford. :-).) So the
furling gear is helping you for about a couple of minutes in the
beginning and the end of the trip, but the autopilot is working for you
for hours and hours.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

On 15 Jul 2005, (Mic) wrote:

On a sailing craft which purchase would be a priority
an AutoPilot or a furling (head sail)? * * * If
economically I had a choice between a furling or an AP,
I would choose an AP. Considering the useage to be
daysails and 2-3 or 4 day excursions. Its alot more
energy and time to steer than to change sails. BTW I
dont consider a tiller tamer an AP.

Isn't this basically a "chacun a son gôut" kind of Thing depending (as
the OP notes) on the particular use and preferences of the sailor in
question?

Last week-end on the L.I. Sound after a sudden brief but very
strong/gusty thunderstorm, I saw one boat being towed after having
been dismasted and two others towed with their sails blown out. I
concededly am not sure that they didn't have furlers, but, judging by
their apparent age and configurations, etc., I speculate that they did
not and, anyway, saw that they did not get their sails down (or even
reefed) in time and so wonder what their owners would now think about
the value to them of the sort of comparative "more energy" and "more .
.. . time" estimation stated above.

Since the OP appears to be referring mostly to day sailing and, hence,
by implication, to a comparatively smaller boat than a large racer or
cruiser (re. which an autopilot is arguably close to a necessity),
even if one also were to hypothestize a comparatively very limited
budget, one also might wonder whether the "either/or" choice as
posited is realistic in terms of what may be alternatives - e.g.,
diligent shopping for used equipment in the secondary market[s] (re.
which eBay is only one potential source that might come to mind).

Mic wrote:
On a sailing craft which purchase would be a priority an AutoPilot or
a furling (head sail)? And why?

This is sort of like asking: "Shall I drive to work, or take my
lunch?", yes?

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:29:41 GMT, (Mic) wrote:

On a sailing craft which purchase would be a priority an AutoPilot or
a furling (head sail)? And why?

How old and fit are you, and what are your local sailing conditions? I
rarely think of my AP and the concept of furling in the same frame of
mind, but I do use it when I am solo and tweak sails on the foredeck.
I also use a tiller tamer clamp thingie when under power to keep the
tiller amidships.

I use hank-ons because I like to sail fast and high and I like to have
options. Also, the exercise doesn't hurt. The downsides include more
effort, more sailbags, a wee bit more fuss. The upsides include better
and possible safer sailing, cheaper sailing (I buy barely used sails
from hotshot racers with slightly bigger boats and have them cut to
fit for a small fraction of new price), and probably my sail rotation
will last longer than your hypothetical furling sail, at least in the
top 20% of their performance ranges.

Furling is a convenience and a compromise. When I sail offshore and
spend days on the same tack, I won't hesitate to go furling (but not
the main!).

AP is a convenience, a safety factor when one is solo/tired, and
another expensive thing to break. They draw a lot of power and can't
steer as well as humans in a fair number of conditions. For "light
duty" reaching, they are fine.

Wind vanes are great and good in most--not all--conditions. I would
use a wind vane for voyaging with an AP for back-up. In voyaging
situations, it seems actual human helming is a small percentage of the
watch's work, because a well-found boat trimmed properly will tend to
steer itself, with a vane or AP doing small corrections. A radar in
"guard" mode and a sharp set of eyes for whales and flotsam does the
rest.

R.

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 00:40:06 -0400, rhys wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:29:41 GMT, (Mic) wrote:

On a sailing craft which purchase would be a priority an AutoPilot or
a furling (head sail)? And why?

Humm...just found this link:

http://com-pacowners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=93

http://faculty.augie.edu/~swart/CP-1...%20Furler.html

"PVC Roller Reefing Furler


That's right - a Reefable roller furling system made from standard
schedule 40 PVC at a cost of under $20!! I wish I could take credit
for this design, but the credit belongs to Greg Cowan, owner of
Com-Pac 16 Fat Bouy. Specific instructions can be found on the
Com-Pac Owners Association website (http://www.com-pacowners.com/).

Improvising on some of the modifications made to this system by
others, I came up with a different design for the furler spool. I use
two 4 inch round electrical box covers with 1/2" NPT hole in the
middle. The shaft of the spool is made out of a 1/2" NPTx3" pipe
nipple. When threaded through the holes in the round plates, the
nipple extends far enough through the plate to attach a 1/2" PVC
thread-to-coupler on top and a 1/2" PVC threaded cap on the bottom.
The furling system rests on a stainless steel washer and cable stop,
which in turn rest on top of the forestay turnbuckel. "

"The system works extremely well under sail. As you can see here, as
long as you pay careful attention to the distance between jib hanks
when you build the furling tube, the foresail can be tensioned top and
bottom so that its luff doesn't scallop. The genoa can be furled in
or out, or reefed to reduce foresail area.


I also built a set of "twing" lines to ajust the lead angle of the
genoa sheet depending on wind speed and size of the reefed foresail.
As you can see here, the twing lines run through the jib cam-cleat
(forward) and the genoa cam-cleat (aft). The block used to lead the
geona sheet can then be adjusted fore or aft in order to give the
genoa the proper sail shape - similar to a genoa track, but without
having to drill holes and mount hardware on the coamings of my boat. "

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 05:49:03 GMT, (Mic) wrote:

On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 00:40:06 -0400, rhys wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:29:41 GMT, (Mic) wrote:

On a sailing craft which purchase would be a priority an AutoPilot or
a furling (head sail)? And why?

Humm...just found this link:

Here is an even better link to a DYI self built Furling from a guy in
Turkey

http://abone.superonline.com/~h.atinc/rollereng.htm

Hello,

I promised to explain how to build a roller. Only now I found time for
that. I will provide the general information and the rest can be seen
in the detailed drawing which I made (click for hand drawing or for a
CAD schematic).

The main material of the system is stainless steel. You will be able
to find almost completely ready parts at junk yards.

Excellent CAD drawings

AutoPilot Vs. Furling
 

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:29:41 +0000, Mic wrote:

On a sailing craft which purchase would be a priority an AutoPilot or
a furling (head sail)? And why?

"Furler" I donno. Roller reefing, absulutely (on the headsail at least). A
properly-balanced sailboat under sail doesn't really need autohelm anyway:
I've sailed across Georgia Strait and never touched the helm. Having
roller reefing allows you to reef the headsail without having to go
forward.

Lloyd Sumpter
"Far Cove" Catalina 36

AutoPilot Vs. Furling
 

In Lloyd Sumpter writes:

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:29:41 +0000, Mic wrote:

On a sailing craft which purchase would be a priority an AutoPilot or
a furling (head sail)? And why?

"Furler" I donno. Roller reefing, absulutely (on the headsail at least). A
properly-balanced sailboat under sail doesn't really need autohelm anyway:
I've sailed across Georgia Strait and never touched the helm. Having
roller reefing allows you to reef the headsail without having to go
forward.

Lloyd Sumpter
"Far Cove" Catalina 36

I would beg to differ, an autopilot is something that you can use for
most of your time afloat, the roller of the headsail is needed only for
a couple of minutes when you hoist and take your headsail down. If you
are interested in sailing then a partly rolled headsail is not a
satisfactory solution.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

AutoPilot Vs. Furling
 

Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:
In Lloyd Sumpter writes:

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:29:41 +0000, Mic wrote:

On a sailing craft which purchase would be a priority an AutoPilot or
a furling (head sail)? And why?

"Furler" I donno. Roller reefing, absulutely (on the headsail at least). A
properly-balanced sailboat under sail doesn't really need autohelm anyway:
I've sailed across Georgia Strait and never touched the helm. Having
roller reefing allows you to reef the headsail without having to go
forward.

Lloyd Sumpter
"Far Cove" Catalina 36

I would beg to differ, an autopilot is something that you can use for
most of your time afloat, the roller of the headsail is needed only for
a couple of minutes when you hoist and take your headsail down. If you
are interested in sailing then a partly rolled headsail is not a
satisfactory solution.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

I have both RF and AP on my 28' S2 and I bought the AP many yrs ago but
the RF just last year. It is my experience that the RF is used far
more than the AP and greatly increases the amount that I actually sail
because it can be unfurled easily when you get a light breeze and
easily furled when the wind dies. Sailing on close quarters where you
have to drop the jib a lot, say the ICW, the RF means you will sail
much more of the time because dropping the head sail every time you go
under a bridge is a pain whereas the RF is a breeze. For short or
single handed sailing, the RF means not going forward to deal with a
headsail so you can stay and steer while furling or unfurling the
headsail. I believe the RF will greatly improve your sailing
experience. Under these conditions, I also consider the RF to be a
safety enhancement. I can definitively say that RF has increased the
quantity and quality of my sailing.
The AP is very nice, but not essential for most coastal cruising. On a
recent 30 hour sail across the Gulf of Mexico (only about 130 miles),
we had 3 people aboard and rarely used the AP although we did use it
some. For shorter distances, you might like the feedback of using the
tiller. I have to admit, for those long hours of motoring when there
is little or no wind, the AP is nice. Note that it is also possible to
rig up a "self tending tiller arrangement" with bungees and line that
will keep you on a specific course with respect to the wind.
In short, if I was short of funds and had to make a choice, I'd go with
the RF and rig up a self tending device for the tiller.

AutoPilot Vs. Furling
 

The Auto pilot requires more than the price for the unit itself. Power
generation and power storage have to be increased. So if the boat isnt
already set up with good power, you will need to get the check book out
again.

Besides, if youre sailing short handed its useful. But most of the time
there is someone on board to take the helm.

DP
"Lloyd Sumpter" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:29:41 +0000, Mic wrote:

On a sailing craft which purchase would be a priority an AutoPilot or
a furling (head sail)? And why?

"Furler" I donno. Roller reefing, absulutely (on the headsail at least). A
properly-balanced sailboat under sail doesn't really need autohelm anyway:
I've sailed across Georgia Strait and never touched the helm. Having
roller reefing allows you to reef the headsail without having to go
forward.

Lloyd Sumpter
"Far Cove" Catalina 36

AutoPilot Vs. Furling
 

d parker wrote:

The Auto pilot requires more than the price for the unit itself. Power
generation and power storage have to be increased. So if the boat isnt
already set up with good power, you will need to get the check book out
again.

Besides, if youre sailing short handed its useful. But most of the time
there is someone on board to take the helm.


....and, you need a sharp watchman anyway.

Terry K


DP
"Lloyd Sumpter" wrote in message
...

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:29:41 +0000, Mic wrote:


On a sailing craft which purchase would be a priority an AutoPilot or
a furling (head sail)? And why?


"Furler" I donno. Roller reefing, absulutely (on the headsail at least). A
properly-balanced sailboat under sail doesn't really need autohelm anyway:
I've sailed across Georgia Strait and never touched the helm. Having
roller reefing allows you to reef the headsail without having to go
forward.

Lloyd Sumpter
"Far Cove" Catalina 36

AutoPilot Vs. Furling
 

Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:
In Lloyd Sumpter writes:


On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:29:41 +0000, Mic wrote:


On a sailing craft which purchase would be a priority an AutoPilot or
a furling (head sail)? And why?


"Furler" I donno. Roller reefing, absulutely (on the headsail at least). A
properly-balanced sailboat under sail doesn't really need autohelm anyway:
I've sailed across Georgia Strait and never touched the helm. Having
roller reefing allows you to reef the headsail without having to go
forward.


Lloyd Sumpter
"Far Cove" Catalina 36


I would beg to differ, an autopilot is something that you can use for
most of your time afloat, the roller of the headsail is needed only for
a couple of minutes when you hoist and take your headsail down. If you
are interested in sailing then a partly rolled headsail is not a
satisfactory solution.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

Interesting quesyion. If you are daysailing and coastal cruising I would
think the roller furling is probably a better value. If you are
voyaging and sailing shorthanded 24/7 then the auto-piot is probably
better value. In my opinion!

AutoPilot Vs. Furling
 

"Terry Spragg" wrote in message
.. .
d parker wrote:

The Auto pilot requires more than the price for the unit itself. Power
generation and power storage have to be increased. So if the boat isnt
already set up with good power, you will need to get the check book out
again.

Besides, if youre sailing short handed its useful. But most of the time
there is someone on board to take the helm.


...and, you need a sharp watchman anyway.

Terry K

SNip

yep you're right. I reckon he should get the furler



DP

AutoPilot Vs. Furling
 

The question is better answered if we know what type of use you are doing
with your sailboat: daysailing, week end, long distance, the length of time
and the frequency of use.
Ideally you should have both the AP and the jib roller Furler
As for me the orders of priority a
1) husky boat fenders, for when you want to dock in against concrete Warf's
and locks.
2) AP when you are just you and your wife, more time to spent on vigil,
charting and cooking. Unless you are going upwind once your sails are up
and trimmed your boat is on course. When the weather get rough you balance
your boat with the proper sail and trim.
When you have to lower your sails, untangled and free your furler the AP is
your third hand.
3) Radar and GPS and back up, depending on your area, in land or on a lake
these are not a priority.
4) Dodger and Bimini, when you spent lots of time on the water it is wise to
protect your skin against sun damages
5) Roller furlers for the jib and main, when you no longer can get in front
to change sails drop the main and bag them, it is safer to have a good
furling system. Conversely if your furler get tangled or jammed and you
are alone your AP will serve you well.

Now days newer sailboats are all coming equipped with furlers and many have
AP, dodger and bimini.

AutoPilot Vs. Furling
 

As Dennis Marier's post makes clear, priorities differ. Those of us
who live where it is hot know that a Bimini comes long before any of
the other desired items, even before sails. Without a Bimini, you will
not sail long in the heat and all other gear will then be useless. So,
consider that your priorities might differ from what we have said.

AutoPilot Vs. Furling
 

With out question, roller furling for the head sail. You will be on duty at
the helm anyway...though very nice, an Autohelm is not strictly necessary,
though might seem so on a long passage. I'm just thinking of those nights
at the helm with most of the crew sleeping, squally blowing in an seas
breaking over the front of your boat, and flowing down your lee deck. May
not be the time you would feel like strolling to the foredeck to shorten
sail.

Glenn.
s/v Seawing
www.seawing.net

wrote in message
oups.com...

Lauri Tarkkonen wrote:
In Lloyd Sumpter
writes:

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:29:41 +0000, Mic wrote:

On a sailing craft which purchase would be a priority an AutoPilot or
a furling (head sail)? And why?

"Furler" I donno. Roller reefing, absulutely (on the headsail at
least). A
properly-balanced sailboat under sail doesn't really need autohelm
anyway:
I've sailed across Georgia Strait and never touched the helm. Having
roller reefing allows you to reef the headsail without having to go
forward.

Lloyd Sumpter
"Far Cove" Catalina 36

I would beg to differ, an autopilot is something that you can use for
most of your time afloat, the roller of the headsail is needed only for
a couple of minutes when you hoist and take your headsail down. If you
are interested in sailing then a partly rolled headsail is not a
satisfactory solution.

- Lauri Tarkkonen

I have both RF and AP on my 28' S2 and I bought the AP many yrs ago but
the RF just last year. It is my experience that the RF is used far
more than the AP and greatly increases the amount that I actually sail
because it can be unfurled easily when you get a light breeze and
easily furled when the wind dies. Sailing on close quarters where you
have to drop the jib a lot, say the ICW, the RF means you will sail
much more of the time because dropping the head sail every time you go
under a bridge is a pain whereas the RF is a breeze. For short or
single handed sailing, the RF means not going forward to deal with a
headsail so you can stay and steer while furling or unfurling the
headsail. I believe the RF will greatly improve your sailing
experience. Under these conditions, I also consider the RF to be a
safety enhancement. I can definitively say that RF has increased the
quantity and quality of my sailing.
The AP is very nice, but not essential for most coastal cruising. On a
recent 30 hour sail across the Gulf of Mexico (only about 130 miles),
we had 3 people aboard and rarely used the AP although we did use it
some. For shorter distances, you might like the feedback of using the
tiller. I have to admit, for those long hours of motoring when there
is little or no wind, the AP is nice. Note that it is also possible to
rig up a "self tending tiller arrangement" with bungees and line that
will keep you on a specific course with respect to the wind.
In short, if I was short of funds and had to make a choice, I'd go with
the RF and rig up a self tending device for the tiller.

AutoPilot Vs. Furling
 

AutoPilot Vs. Furling
 

Your are probably right a bimini is not need it for when you sail a few hour
per week and racing on Thursday evening.
However, when you are always on your boat and are exposed to the sun 8 to 10
hours every day the situation is not the same. Now I know a little better
and I use sun blocker.
I hate this greasy stuff and I do not have it on my face all the time.
Unless you use white titanium the sun block will only protect you for about
15 to 30 minutes (according to my dermatologist). Many of his patients are
saying how come I end up with skin cancer I have been using sun screen and
blockers all my life.

"Don White" wrote in message
...
wrote:
As Dennis Marier's post makes clear, priorities differ. Those of us
who live where it is hot know that a Bimini comes long before any of
the other desired items, even before sails. Without a Bimini, you will
not sail long in the heat and all other gear will then be useless. So,
consider that your priorities might differ from what we have said.


That's for sure. Even though the Mirage 33 I crewed on for 5 years came
with a Bimini, I didn't see it used once. On the otherhand, the Dodger
was a popular item on cold blustery days when the most forward seats in
the cockpit were highly valued.

AutoPilot Vs. Furling
 

d parker wrote:

"Terry Spragg" wrote in message
.. .

d parker wrote:


The Auto pilot requires more than the price for the unit itself. Power
generation and power storage have to be increased. So if the boat isnt
already set up with good power, you will need to get the check book out
again.

Besides, if youre sailing short handed its useful. But most of the time
there is someone on board to take the helm.


...and, you need a sharp watchman anyway.

Terry K


SNip

yep you're right. I reckon he should get the furler

DP

I maintain that a pull down line on the jib head, led aft to the
cockpit via a small block at the forepeak, is a better answer overall.

Pull jib down, sieze up downhaul, set main reef, rehoist jib is a
very safe manouver. It should also be easy for any fit sailor. No
boat should be sailing without consideration for crew fitness.

A well designed rig near the extreme of conditions will enable you
to sail well under a main trysail alone. If not, you should be
trailing warps or a drogue under bare poles, and warming up a can of
beans under your armpit, battened down, on deck or below.

A bare forestay is better in a blow than a baggy wrinkled genny
forcing your head downwind.

Terry K

AutoPilot Vs. Furling
 

AutoPilot Vs. Furling
 

Terry Spragg wrote:
d parker wrote:

"Terry Spragg" wrote in message
.. .

d parker wrote:


The Auto pilot requires more than the price for the unit itself.
Power generation and power storage have to be increased. So if the
boat isnt already set up with good power, you will need to get the
check book out again.

Besides, if youre sailing short handed its useful. But most of the
time there is someone on board to take the helm.


...and, you need a sharp watchman anyway.

Terry K


SNip

yep you're right. I reckon he should get the furler

DP


I maintain that a pull down line on the jib head, led aft to the cockpit
via a small block at the forepeak, is a better answer overall.

Pull jib down, sieze up downhaul, set main reef, rehoist jib is a very
safe manouver. It should also be easy for any fit sailor. No boat
should be sailing without consideration for crew fitness.

A well designed rig near the extreme of conditions will enable you to
sail well under a main trysail alone. If not, you should be trailing
warps or a drogue under bare poles, and warming up a can of beans under
your armpit, battened down, on deck or below.

A bare forestay is better in a blow than a baggy wrinkled genny forcing
your head downwind.

Terry K

I agree.

AutoPilot Vs. Furling
 

"Terry Spragg" wrote in message
.. .
d parker wrote:

"Terry Spragg" wrote in message
.. .

d parker wrote:


The Auto pilot requires more than the price for the unit itself. Power
generation and power storage have to be increased. So if the boat isnt
already set up with good power, you will need to get the check book out
again.

Besides, if youre sailing short handed its useful. But most of the time
there is someone on board to take the helm.


...and, you need a sharp watchman anyway.

Terry K


SNip

yep you're right. I reckon he should get the furler

DP

I maintain that a pull down line on the jib head, led aft to the cockpit
via a small block at the forepeak, is a better answer overall.

Pull jib down, sieze up downhaul, set main reef, rehoist jib is a very
safe manouver. It should also be easy for any fit sailor. No boat should
be sailing without consideration for crew fitness.

A well designed rig near the extreme of conditions will enable you to sail
well under a main trysail alone. If not, you should be trailing warps or
a drogue under bare poles, and warming up a can of beans under your
armpit, battened down, on deck or below.

A bare forestay is better in a blow than a baggy wrinkled genny forcing
your head downwind.

Terry K

All this is relevant to where and when the boat is sailed.. I missed the
initial post. But if the guy is bay sailing a furler is perfect. Understand
what you are saying if he is a passage maker. Though these days even the
purest of the purists are starting to furl.

DP