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Clorox in the bilge?
I cleaned my bilges using a garden sprayer filled with diluted Clorox. My
bilges are painted and cleaned up nicely. I have also used Clorox to disinfect plastic water tanks....just a 1/4 cup to 40 gallons and a little stronger mix in the toilets to the holding tanks (stainless). Have never had a problem |
HarryKrause wrote: A friend at a marina I frequent did not use his boat at all last year and, in fact, kept it shrinkwrapped. Well, he opened it up this past week and said when he called me on the phone: "Phew!" Stench. No mold though, at least that he can see. It's a nice Bayliner cuddycabin. His idea is to prepare a strong Clorox and water solution, one to one, and slosh it through the bilges for a couple of hours, and then rinse it out through the transom hull drain. He also wants to flush some Clorox down the toilet and into the holding tank. Bad idea. Bleach will knock down the odor for a while, but it won't clean the bilge, which is what it really needs... A wet bilge is a dark stagnant pond--a "primordial soup." And it behaves like one, growing a variety of molds, fungi and bacteria—some that thrive in dark stagnant water, others that just like damp dark places. The warmer the weather and water, the faster they grow. Add some dead and decaying sea water micro-organisms, dirt, food particles, rain water, wash water, hot weather and humidity, plus a little oil or diesel, it's no wonder it stinks! Most people’s approach to bilge cleaning consists only of throwing some bilge cleaner/and or bleach into that soup when it starts to stink and calling it done. I’ve never understood why they think that’s all there is to it. They wouldn’t just add some detergent and bleach to a bathtub full of dirty bath water, drain it and call the bathtub clean. No one would ever even think of skipping the rinse cycle in the clothes washer or the dishwasher...so why would anyone think it’s possible to clean a bilge without rinsing all the dirty water out of it? I suspect that laziness may be one of the reasons. The directions on bilge cleaners may be another; they don’t mention rinsing, only adding their product and allowing the bilge pump to pump the dirty water overboard, assuming that anyone smart enough to own a boat would figure out for himself that the bilge needs rinsing out afterward too. If you really want to do it right, you need to dry it out completely too... use a hand pump and a sponge to get what the bilge pump leaves behind, and leave the hatches open so that plenty of fresh air can circulate in it. Once a year should be enough to keep most boats smelling fresh (the best time to do it is in the spring as part of full recommissioning), although it may be necessary to clean the bilge two or three times a year in tropical climates. Bleach should NEVER go down a toilet...it's highly damaging to the rubber parts in it, and also to hoses. Plenty of clean fresh water liberally laced with white vinegar pumped through the toilet--disconnect the intake hose from the thru-hull (close the seacock first!) and stick it in a bucket of water will accomplish just as much. All he needs to do to the holding tank is flush it out very thoroughly with clean fresh water and add the tank product of his choice...I recommend either Raritan K.O. or Odorlos. If he still has odor after cleaning the bilge and flushing out the sanitation system, it's likely that the sanitation hoses have become permeated with odor. The only cure for that is new hoses. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 |
HarryKrause wrote:
Flushing out a holding tank...I don't have one handy, but if I recall, there is no flush out opening. The only thing I can think of offhand is to run a hose into the clean-out, turn on the water, and let it all come out the clean-out hole. There's an easier way (ok, MAYBE easier): after pumpout, put a few gallons--enough to cover the bottom to a depth of several inches--of clean fresh water down the deck pumpout fitting...'cuz that sends the water into the tank at the bottom to stir up any sludge. Pump that out...repeat, repeat...till you're only pumping out clean water. As you may recall, Peggie, I prefer NOT to use the head on a boat if there is a holding tank, and, in fact, have only used the one on my Parker when I had the boat down off Virginia Beach in the Atlantic. If you're anywhere on the whole east coast between RI and the FL Keys, you wouldnt have to use the tank at all if you installed a Lectra/San. Can you recommend a bilge cleaning product? Any good strong low suds detergent or engine degreaser...I'm partial to Wisk unless there are patches of oil etc that have turned to "bubble gum"...in which case I'd go with the most powerful engine degreaser he can find at an auto parts store. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detai...=400&group=327 |
just me wrote:
I cleaned my bilges using a garden sprayer filled with diluted Clorox. Actually, you haven't actually CLEANED anything...you've just killed a few bateria and changed the color of any "glop" from dark to white. If bleach could actually CLEAN anything, it wouldn't also be necessary to use detergent in the laundry. Have never had a problem. You will if you keept doing that. And you'll blame it on something else...'cuz everyone always does. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detai...=400&group=327 |
just me wrote:
I have also used Clorox to disinfect plastic water tanks....just a 1/4 cup to 40 gallons Not enough to accomplish anything more than a tempory cure. If you want your onboard fresh water to taste and smell as good as any that comes out of a faucet on land, here's the right way to do it: Although most people think only in terms of the tank, the plumbing is actually the source of most foul water, because the molds, mildew, fungi and bacteria which cause it thrive in damp dark places, not under water. There are all kinds of products sold that claim to keep onboard water fresh, but all that’s really necessary is an annual or in especially warm climates, semi-annual recommissioning of the entire system—tank and plumbing. The following recommendations conform to section 10.8 in the A-1 192 code covering electrical, plumbing, and heating of recreational vehicles. The solution is approved and recommended by competent health officials. It may be used in a new system a used one that has not been used for a period of time, or one that may have been contaminated. Before beginning, turn off hot water heater at the breaker; do not turn it on again until the entire recommissioning is complete. Icemakers should be left running to allow cleaning out of the water feed line; however the first two buckets of ice—the bucket generated during recommissioning and the first bucketful afterward--should be discarded. 1. Prepare a chlorine solution using one gallon of water and 1/2 cup (4 oz) Clorox or Purex household bleach (5% sodium Hypochlorite solution ). With tank empty, pour chlorine solution into tank. Use one gallon of solution for each 5 gallons of tank capacity. (There's an easier way: one pint of bleach to each 25 gal water tank capacity.) 2. Complete filling of tank with fresh water. Open each faucet and drain cock until air has been released and the entire system is filled. Do not turn off the pump; it must remain on to keep the system pressurized and the solution in the lines 3. Allow to stand for at least three hours, but no longer than 24 hours. 4 Drain through every faucet on the boat (and if you haven't done this in a while, it's a good idea to remove any diffusion screens from the faucets, because what's likely to come out will clog them). Fill the tank again with fresh water only, drain again through every faucet on the boat. 5. To remove excess chlorine taste or odor which might remain, prepare a solution of one quart white vinegar to five gallons water and allow this solution to agitate in tank for several days by vehicle motion. 6. Drain tank again through every faucet, and flush the lines again by fill the tank 1/4-1/2 full and again flushing with potable water. People have expressed concern about using this method to recommission aluminum tanks. While bleach (chlorine) IS corrosive, it’s effects are are cumulative. So the effect of an annual or semi-annual "shock treatment" is negligible compared to the cumulative effect of holding chlorinated city water in the tank for years. Nevertheless, it's a good idea to mix the total amount of bleach in a few gallons of water before putting it into either a stainless or aluminum tank. People have also expressed concern about the potential damage to rubber and neoprene water pump parts. Again—the cumulative effect of carrying chlorinated water is far more damaging over time than the occasional “shock treatment.” And it’s that cumulative effect that makes it a VERY bad idea to add a little bleach to each fill. Not only does it damage the system, but unless you add enough to make your water taste and smell like a laundry, it’s not enough to do any good. Even if it were, any “purifying” properties in chlorine evaporate within 24 hours, leaving behind only the corrosive properties. An annual or semi-annual recommissioning according to the above directions is all that should be necessary to keep your water tasting and smelling as good as anything that comes out of any faucet on land. If you need to improve on that, install a water filter. Just remember that a filter is not a substitute for cleaning out the system, and that filters require regular inspection and cleaning or replacement. To keep the water system cleaner longer, use your fresh water...keep water flowing through system. The molds, fungi, and bacteria only start to grow in hoses that aren't being used. Before filling the tank each time, always let the dock water run for at least 15 minutes first...the same critters that like the lines on your boat LOVE the dock supply line and your hose that sit in the warm sun, and you certainly don't want to transfer water that's been sitting in the dock supply line to your boat's system. So let the water run long enough to flush out all the water that's been standing in them so that what goes into your boat is coming straight from the water main. and a little stronger mix in the toilets to the holding tanks (stainless). A VERY bad idea! As said earlier, you will have problems (prob'ly already do if you've been doing that very long), but you won't recognize your use of bleach as the reason why your toilet needs new seals and o-rings or the sludge in your tank has turned to concrete (if you're even aware that there IS an accumulation of sludge)...any odor from your toilet will only drive you to pour more bleach down it...your sanitation hoses will start to stink....all of which, and any other symptoms, could have been prevented if bleach hadn't been used. I dunno how old your steel holding tank is, but if it's more than a couple of years old, you need to keep a very close eye on the welds at seams and fittings...'cuz unrine is so corrosive that it's very rare for any metal tank not to develope a leak at a seam or fitting within 2-5 years...and turn the tank bottom into a collander in about 10 years. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detai...=400&group=327 |
HarryKrause wrote:
Thanks as always. I find it easier to not use the fresh water systems on my boats, but to bring aboard bottled water. To each his/her own. I find it interesting that people will drink water that's been a bottle for months, but won't drink water that's only been in their tank for a week. In case you aren't aware of it, tests have shown that the bacteria etc count in most bottled water is actually higher than that in tap water. Only proving again that perception really is 99% of reality. :) -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detai...=400&group=327 |
Harry,
It is funny that you asked about cleaning your "buddies" boat, but when you responded to all of Peggie's recommendations you referenced "your" boat. You sound like a kid who ask questions using a "buddy" so they don't have to admit they have a problem. Why didn't you take your boat out last season? "HarryKrause" wrote in message ... Peggie Hall wrote: HarryKrause wrote: A friend at a marina I frequent did not use his boat at all last year and, in fact, kept it shrinkwrapped. Well, he opened it up this past week and said when he called me on the phone: "Phew!" Stench. No mold though, at least that he can see. It's a nice Bayliner cuddycabin. His idea is to prepare a strong Clorox and water solution, one to one, and slosh it through the bilges for a couple of hours, and then rinse it out through the transom hull drain. He also wants to flush some Clorox down the toilet and into the holding tank. Bad idea. Bleach will knock down the odor for a while, but it won't clean the bilge, which is what it really needs... A wet bilge is a dark stagnant pond--a "primordial soup." And it behaves like one, growing a variety of molds, fungi and bacteria—some that thrive in dark stagnant water, others that just like damp dark places. The warmer the weather and water, the faster they grow. Add some dead and decaying sea water micro-organisms, dirt, food particles, rain water, wash water, hot weather and humidity, plus a little oil or diesel, it's no wonder it stinks! Most people’s approach to bilge cleaning consists only of throwing some bilge cleaner/and or bleach into that soup when it starts to stink and calling it done. I’ve never understood why they think that’s all there is to it. They wouldn’t just add some detergent and bleach to a bathtub full of dirty bath water, drain it and call the bathtub clean. No one would ever even think of skipping the rinse cycle in the clothes washer or the dishwasher...so why would anyone think it’s possible to clean a bilge without rinsing all the dirty water out of it? I suspect that laziness may be one of the reasons. The directions on bilge cleaners may be another; they don’t mention rinsing, only adding their product and allowing the bilge pump to pump the dirty water overboard, assuming that anyone smart enough to own a boat would figure out for himself that the bilge needs rinsing out afterward too. If you really want to do it right, you need to dry it out completely too... use a hand pump and a sponge to get what the bilge pump leaves behind, and leave the hatches open so that plenty of fresh air can circulate in it. Once a year should be enough to keep most boats smelling fresh (the best time to do it is in the spring as part of full recommissioning), although it may be necessary to clean the bilge two or three times a year in tropical climates. Bleach should NEVER go down a toilet...it's highly damaging to the rubber parts in it, and also to hoses. Plenty of clean fresh water liberally laced with white vinegar pumped through the toilet--disconnect the intake hose from the thru-hull (close the seacock first!) and stick it in a bucket of water will accomplish just as much. All he needs to do to the holding tank is flush it out very thoroughly with clean fresh water and add the tank product of his choice...I recommend either Raritan K.O. or Odorlos. If he still has odor after cleaning the bilge and flushing out the sanitation system, it's likely that the sanitation hoses have become permeated with odor. The only cure for that is new hoses. Thank you, ma'am...I will print this out for him. Flushing out a holding tank...I don't have one handy, but if I recall, there is no flush out opening. The only thing I can think of offhand is to run a hose into the clean-out, turn on the water, and let it all come out the clean-out hole. As you may recall, Peggie, I prefer NOT to use the head on a boat if there is a holding tank, and, in fact, have only used the one on my Parker when I had the boat down off Virginia Beach in the Atlantic. Can you recommend a bilge cleaning product? -- |
Peggie Hall wrote:
I find it interesting that people will drink water that's been a bottle for months, but won't drink water that's only been in their tank for a week. In case you aren't aware of it, tests have shown that the bacteria etc count in most bottled water is actually higher than that in tap water. Only proving again that perception really is 99% of reality. :) FYI most bottled "spring water" (not) is percoltated with ozone before bottling to destroy or incapacitate bacteria for up to 2 years, as are the bottles - a regulatory body requirement for all bottlers that is also product-tested on every batch an ongoing basis. A few plants accomplish this using high-intensity UV instead, to the same tough standards. You may be aware that a few large vessels have UV process treatment of drinking water, too. But the real preception/reality joke is that good home well water, and even NYC tap water, taste superior to most people than bottled springwaters, and consistently beat them all out in double-blind consumer taste tests. As a former participant in a bottled water venture, it all strikes me as legalized marketing scam of sorts. :-) Marinas seem to have caught on fast to it. Just 2 nights ago dining with a yatch owner/friend at one, we encountered 2 different upscale-market bottles of springwater on our table. Now, in any other country, if a bottle of water were furnished with your table setting, it would be complimentary of the establishment, or otherwise be considered an insult. But in this case if you want to open the bottle & drink any, it costs you over $10/bottle. Quite good marketing, yes? Most people crack one or both open instinctively, and others decide they want a sip, before they know they will be banged for it. The Owner's wife was undecided as to whether the tall, round, clear one from Scandanavia looked more like a lava lamp or a sex symbol. I told her it was obviously a marina sex symbol, since it was grey on top. ;-) |
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On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 01:33:44 GMT, Rosalie B. wrote:
wrote: Peggie Hall wrote: I find it interesting that people will drink water that's been a bottle for months, but won't drink water that's only been in their tank for a week. In case you aren't aware of it, tests have shown that the bacteria etc count in most bottled water is actually higher than that in tap water. Only proving again that perception really is 99% of reality. :) FYI most bottled "spring water" (not) is percoltated with ozone before bottling to destroy or incapacitate bacteria for up to 2 years, as are the bottles - a regulatory body requirement for all bottlers that is also product-tested on every batch an ongoing basis. A few plants accomplish this using high-intensity UV instead, to the same tough standards. You may be aware that a few large vessels have UV process treatment of drinking water, too. We don't buy bottled water as a general rule, but my children sometimes do. I've got some bottles that they have used, and I refill them from the tap to take on car trips or walks. My daughter also reused the water bottles which she buys and takes them to ball games or on her boat for the kids to drink. But the real preception/reality joke is that good home well water, and even NYC tap water, taste superior to most people than bottled springwaters, and consistently beat them all out in double-blind consumer taste tests. As a former participant in a bottled water venture, it all strikes me as legalized marketing scam of sorts. :-) Marinas seem to have caught on fast to it. Just 2 nights ago dining with a yatch owner/friend at one, we encountered 2 different upscale-market bottles of springwater on our table. Now, in any other country, if a bottle of water were furnished with your table setting, it would be complimentary of the establishment, or otherwise be considered an insult. But in this case if you want to open the bottle & drink any, it costs you over $10/bottle. Quite good marketing, yes? Most people crack one or both open instinctively, and others decide they want a sip, before they know they will be banged for it. I once asked for water at a local crab house, and they told me that I'd have to pay for bottled water because they didn't have any water that was safe to drink. I didn't buy any. The Owner's wife was undecided as to whether the tall, round, clear one from Scandanavia looked more like a lava lamp or a sex symbol. I told her it was obviously a marina sex symbol, since it was grey on top. ;-) grandma Rosalie There's been only two instances where I really liked the water I was drinking. The first was Anchorage AK city water....the other was my well. Norm B |
I have a little PUR filter on the galley sink faucet. I refill all my
drinking water bottles using it as the filter, and it tastes great. I also use it for cooking water. The regular tank water is fine for showers, cleaning, washing hands, dishes, etc. I have fiberglass tanks that, no matter how much I clean with bleach, etc., still pick up that "fiberglass" smell after a couple of weeks. I use up the water in the tanks at least once a month and refill with fresh. |
"Keith" wrote:
I have a little PUR filter on the galley sink faucet. I refill all my drinking water bottles using it as the filter, and it tastes great. I also use it for cooking water. The regular tank water is fine for showers, cleaning, washing hands, dishes, etc. I have fiberglass tanks that, no matter how much I clean with bleach, etc., still pick up that "fiberglass" smell after a couple of weeks. I use up the water in the tanks at least once a month and refill with fresh. I have a problem with those filters, in that I don't think they are very sanitary. Wet all the time and prime breeding ground for nasty stuff. Bob put one on the sink at the Baltimore house, but he hasn't put one back on anything after we moved. grandma Rosalie |
HarryKrause wrote:
Like many things, the "taste" of water is subjective, assuming it isn't loaded up with foul-tasting or smelling chemicals. For some reason "boat water" always tastes "flat" to me. I don't drink any to find out, unless it's by accident. We have well water at our house, and it is pretty decent for drinking, especially since we filter it. But I still rather take bottled water on board, and drink that. It's no trouble for me to do so. I fill bottles from my well for drinking water, too, and consider it SOP until/unless yatchs are fitted with a separate drinking water tank & associated piping system & tap(s). Most shipboard tradition & design has always segregated potable from drinking systems, no matter how clean any load of the former may be or what it may taste like. It's ingrained for other reasons that, while of lesser consideration on a yacht, haven't just gone away. But it does seem odd to me that installing a separate small tank & appropriate system for drinking water hasn't caught on much in the boating world - considering everything else that is bought & installed at great cost. Such as enough navgear to sail to Pluto through a meteor field without touching the wheel nor picking up a pair of binoculars. :-) Perhaps many assume there'll be good drinking water available for free on Pluto, too, and that tank contamination never happens? |
HarryKrause wrote:
I have two boats with refrigerators. One is a 25' Parker with a 12V refrigerator/freezer unit. It has never been used. The refer or the boatBG? Damn thing hooks into the two batteries on board, and even though it is supposed to shut itself off if the voltage drops below a certain level. Who knows if it will? And of course, I could switch off one battery and run it off the other, but will I remember? What it needs is its own dedicated battery with isolaters, but I haven't gotten around to doing that bit of wiring. The boat I'm presently involved with has an older ('78?) Norcold dual-voltage refer of the usual size. This is the sort that has its own internal inverter & changes over to 12vdc whenever it's available at its terminals. During delivery trials I noted that on 12v it only draws a little over 1 amp. I have little exp using 12v refers other than an RV 3-way I didn't like, so to me this indicates 1 of 4 things: - the refer is slightly hosed though it cools OK even with its no-good door gasket (big gap at bottom in the usual place); or, - it is unbelieveably efficient; or, - the monitoring instrumentation (Link 2000) is lying (I haven't been through that panel and verified its setup yet); or, - you could run the sucker with only a small solar panel charging the bank almost indefinitely. But as for water chilling, it'd seem a natural for a cruising boat in hot climates to obtain it part-time via a 2nd exchanger from engine-driven A/C, particularly since most who can afford such boats consider "roughing it" to mean badly-dressed line handlers & slow room service. Or for the rest of us, fulltime via the compact/simple/poor-man's route of routing DW through a little fin-tube exchanger in the refer, perhaps using up the usual otherwise-cramped space up high next to its freezer (evap). Of course, once someone begins fabbing & selling the little exchanger to boaters, it won't be a poor-man's route anymore. ;-) But finned tubing is common enough that you could roll your own, and poking 2 holes in the rear to plumb it is a no-brainer for a careful person. You might enjoy having a 5gal tank of nice well water piped to a small DW-dedicated handpump spout that'd give you one big cold glass at a time. This DW tank might also be an ordinary springwater carboy secured with a 2-hole stopper - you could chuck it for a new one anytime it got suspicious, or rinse it out easily, or even have 2 for home filling/swapout. Finally, there'd be a lot more room in the already-small refer. |
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HarryKrause wrote:
I appreciate all this, but...it just goes to the core of my point, and that is, it is a hell of a lot easier to bring aboard a few six packs of bottled water when we go out than go through what you are describing to run a fridge or have decent tasting water. We have a commercial icemaker at home. (I used to do a lot of fishing in Florida, and took it with me from there to Maryland) I empty its "product" out into large plastic bags during the week and put those into our freezer. When I head for the boat, I simply grab the bags of ice and when I get to the boat we're using, I toss the ice into an ice chest, where it keeps, if I want it to, for at least a few days. Bottles of water go on top, along with other liquid refreshments, and whatever food that needs to stay cold. No fuss, no muss, no plumbing, no electricity, no nuttin'. I know this is not the elegant solution, but our 25-footer doesn't have a generator, and I really do not want to find myself in the position of trying to start an engine whose battery is down because the damned refrig forgot to switch itself off when the voltage dropped or I forgot to flip some damned switch. If I were cruising for any significant periods of time, I wouldn't be doing it in THAT boat, anyway. It's just a day or overnight kinda boat. But I appreciate the elegance of what you are saying. I understand what you are saying, and although we have a built in refer/freezer on our boat, we also do not use it for overnight or day trips either. We don't even do as much as you do - we just bring a cooler with some 2 liter soda bottles of frozen water in them. (We fill them with water and freeze them at home) If they do happen to melt, we can drink the water. Our kids gave us a 12v refrigerator for the car last Xmas, which we intend to use for the boat for situations like that. It's too large to be viable in the car. I have trained myself not to need cold water to drink. When the engine heats up the water in the tanks (as it will if it is on for any length of time), I will drink water from bottles that we've brought from home. (We don't buy water in bottles.) Our home refrigerator has a ice cube maker in it, but it is not hooked up. grandma Rosalie |
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