Proof of ownership when buying a boat.
 

I am a little uneasy to buy a used sailboat.
I do not know of any mechanism that can tell me if there are any monetary
liens against a sailboat. If I buy a boat and pay the seller in full who
will prove that I own the boat. The seller may still owe money to the bank
that makes the bank the real owner.
One of our club member did buy a boat in the US and managed to obtain
clearance from the lending institution. This may not always be the case.
Many are saying that I may have to hire the service of lawyer to get clear
ownership other suggested the service of a broker. In Canada, lawyers are
only responsible for what information they have access or made available to
them. I would appreciate any comments and suggestions
TIA

"Denis Marier" wrote in message ...
I am a little uneasy to buy a used sailboat.
I do not know of any mechanism that can tell me if there are any monetary
liens against a sailboat. If I buy a boat and pay the seller in full who
will prove that I own the boat. The seller may still owe money to the bank
that makes the bank the real owner.
One of our club member did buy a boat in the US and managed to obtain
clearance from the lending institution. This may not always be the case.
Many are saying that I may have to hire the service of lawyer to get clear
ownership other suggested the service of a broker. In Canada, lawyers are
only responsible for what information they have access or made available to
them. I would appreciate any comments and suggestions
TIA


Check the title. Any lienholders will be listed there. Make sure it is a
current clean title or walk away.

CN

"Denis Marier" wrote in message
...
I am a little uneasy to buy a used sailboat.
I do not know of any mechanism that can tell me if there are any monetary
liens against a sailboat. If I buy a boat and pay the seller in full who
will prove that I own the boat. The seller may still owe money to the bank
that makes the bank the real owner.
One of our club member did buy a boat in the US and managed to obtain
clearance from the lending institution. This may not always be the case.
Many are saying that I may have to hire the service of lawyer to get clear
ownership other suggested the service of a broker. In Canada, lawyers are
only responsible for what information they have access or made available
to
them. I would appreciate any comments and suggestions
TIA

You can always check the title, at least in the US. I'm sure a competent
Canadian attorney familiar with boat transactions could advise you how to
verify title in Canada.

The typical problem wouldn't be the title, but rather the underlying
condition of the vessel.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Denis Marier wrote:
I am a little uneasy to buy a used sailboat.
I do not know of any mechanism that can tell me if there are any monetary
liens against a sailboat. If I buy a boat and pay the seller in full who
will prove that I own the boat. The seller may still owe money to the bank
that makes the bank the real owner.
One of our club member did buy a boat in the US and managed to obtain
clearance from the lending institution. This may not always be the case.
Many are saying that I may have to hire the service of lawyer to get clear
ownership other suggested the service of a broker. In Canada, lawyers are
only responsible for what information they have access or made available to
them. I would appreciate any comments and suggestions
TIA

In Canada there are two systems of boat ownership:

- Registered
- Licensed

If it is a registered vessel, you can easily check the title
is clear of liens.

If it is licensed it will have a number on the bow. In BC
they usually start "13K ....". Licensed vessels may have
liens against them and you won't be able to tell. Licenses
are for smaller boats (under 15 gross tons), effectively
about 40' or so.

Evan Gatehouse

Agree, in Canada if the boat is registered it is possible to check for any
liens.
If the boat is licensed and the majority are you cannot check for any liens.
I wonder if it is the same in the United States. I have seeing many US
boats with numbers affixed on each side of the bow. If they have the same
regulation as we have when I
buy a used sailboat in the United States I will have to do a little
gymnastic to get clear ownership.

"Evan Gatehouse" wrote in message
...
Denis Marier wrote:
I am a little uneasy to buy a used sailboat.
I do not know of any mechanism that can tell me if there are any
monetary
liens against a sailboat. If I buy a boat and pay the seller in full who
will prove that I own the boat. The seller may still owe money to the
bank
that makes the bank the real owner.
One of our club member did buy a boat in the US and managed to obtain
clearance from the lending institution. This may not always be the case.
Many are saying that I may have to hire the service of lawyer to get
clear
ownership other suggested the service of a broker. In Canada, lawyers
are
only responsible for what information they have access or made available
to
them. I would appreciate any comments and suggestions
TIA

I am a little uneasy to buy a used sailboat.
I do not know of any mechanism that can tell me if there are any monetary
liens against a sailboat. If I buy a boat and pay the seller in full who
will prove that I own the boat. The seller may still owe money to the bank
that makes the bank the real owner.
One of our club member did buy a boat in the US and managed to obtain
clearance from the lending institution. This may not always be the case.
Many are saying that I may have to hire the service of lawyer to get clear
ownership other suggested the service of a broker. In Canada, lawyers are
only responsible for what information they have access or made available to
them. I would appreciate any comments and suggestions

If it is a registered vessel, you can easily check the title
is clear of liens.

If it is licensed it will have a number on the bow. In BC
they usually start "13K ....". Licensed vessels may have
liens against them and you won't be able to tell. Licenses
are for smaller boats (under 15 gross tons), effectively
about 40' or so.

Evan Gatehouse

Thanks for the tip. Does this mean that an original title has to be updated
to be current?
The other thing is how to I know that the title is current?

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...

"Denis Marier" wrote in message
...
I am a little uneasy to buy a used sailboat.
I do not know of any mechanism that can tell me if there are any
monetary
liens against a sailboat. If I buy a boat and pay the seller in full who
will prove that I own the boat. The seller may still owe money to the
bank
that makes the bank the real owner.
One of our club member did buy a boat in the US and managed to obtain
clearance from the lending institution. This may not always be the case.
Many are saying that I may have to hire the service of lawyer to get
clear
ownership other suggested the service of a broker. In Canada, lawyers
are
only responsible for what information they have access or made available
to
them. I would appreciate any comments and suggestions
TIA


Check the title. Any lienholders will be listed there. Make sure it is a
current clean title or walk away.

CN

Evan Gatehouse wrote:

In Canada there are two systems of boat ownership:

- Registered
- Licensed

If it is a registered vessel, you can easily check the title is clear of
liens.

If it is licensed it will have a number on the bow. In BC they usually
start "13K ....". Licensed vessels may have liens against them and you
won't be able to tell. Licenses are for smaller boats (under 15 gross
tons), effectively about 40' or so.

Evan Gatehouse

In some provinces...such as Nova Scotia, you can own a boat without
registering it (motor less than 10 hp).
I have an 18' 6" Sandpiper 565 mini cruiser trailerable sailboat with
6hp Evinrude and it is not registered.

Don White wrote:

In some provinces...such as Nova Scotia, you can own a boat without
registering it (motor less than 10 hp).
I have an 18' 6" Sandpiper 565 mini cruiser trailerable sailboat with
6hp Evinrude and it is not registered.


Forgot to say...it's not licensed either.

I know nothing but I won't let that stop me. :-) In the US smaller
boats are registered with the state. The laws vary from state to state.
Some may not issue a certificate of title. If the state does issue
title, then it would keep track of liens. Larger boats (yachts) are
"documented" or registered with the US Coast Guard. I don't know about
those.

Tom
Of the Swee****er Sea

Denis Marier wrote:
I am a little uneasy to buy a used sailboat.
I do not know of any mechanism that can tell me if there are any monetary
liens against a sailboat. If I buy a boat and pay the seller in full who
will prove that I own the boat. The seller may still owe money to the bank
that makes the bank the real owner.
One of our club member did buy a boat in the US and managed to obtain
clearance from the lending institution. This may not always be the case.
Many are saying that I may have to hire the service of lawyer to get clear
ownership other suggested the service of a broker. In Canada, lawyers are
only responsible for what information they have access or made available to
them. I would appreciate any comments and suggestions
TIA

Denis Marier wrote:
Thanks for the tip. Does this mean that an original title has to be updated
to be current?
The other thing is how to I know that the title is current?

"Capt. Neal®" wrote in message
...

"Denis Marier" wrote in message

...

I am a little uneasy to buy a used sailboat.
I do not know of any mechanism that can tell me if there are any

monetary

liens against a sailboat. If I buy a boat and pay the seller in full who
will prove that I own the boat. The seller may still owe money to the

bank

that makes the bank the real owner.
One of our club member did buy a boat in the US and managed to obtain
clearance from the lending institution. This may not always be the case.
Many are saying that I may have to hire the service of lawyer to get

clear

ownership other suggested the service of a broker. In Canada, lawyers

are

only responsible for what information they have access or made available

to

them. I would appreciate any comments and suggestions
TIA


Check the title. Any lienholders will be listed there. Make sure it is a
current clean title or walk away.

CN




Denis,

As usual Capt.Kneel is dead WRONG and offering up VERY bad advice.
Jesus Kneel, when you don't have a clew, shut the **** up! Oh wait, that
would mean you would never post. That would be a good thing Kneel.
You're really quite stupid and it REALLY shows.

Denis, liens on boats do NOT have to be registered on "title" to be
enforced. In fact there is no public record kept of liens on boats,
either in the USA or Canada. Maritime law dictates that a lien exists if
a debt is owed. Nothing has to be registered or documented for the lien
to be enforceable.

It is therefore virtually impossible to guarantee that a vessel is lien,
debt, and encumberance free when you buy it. You CAN research to the
best of your ability and then make a decision as to whether you ~think~
it is debt free, but that doesn't guarantee anything.

If the vessel is worth more than a couple of grand, see a maritime
lawyer. He or she will write a clause into the agreement of purchase and
sale that will force the seller to declare that the vessel is free of
all debts, liens and encumerances, and that the clause will survive
closing of the sale. In other words, if the previous owner screws you,
you have some legal recourse. But that assumes that you 1) You can find
the previous owner and 2) He has enough money to make it worth chasing him.

Since you appear to be in N.B. Denis, there are two possible ways that
the boat can be "titled" (which is not the correct term by the way)

A Canadian vessel can be either licensed (Provincially) or Documented
(Federally). If the vessel is Provincially licensed it will have numbers
down each side of the bow. If it's Federally Documented it will have the
name and port of registry on the transom, and a plaque inside giving the
official registration number and registered tonnage.

Buying a used boat (in the USA or Canada) is ALWAYS a crapshoot Denis.
You can NEVER be 100% certain that you hold CLEAR ownership without
debts that you don't know about. That's a fact that very few people realize.



M

In Canada there are two systems of boat ownership:

- Registered
- Licensed

If it is a registered vessel, you can easily check the title is clear of
liens.


This is completely incorrect. In Canada AND the USA, maritime law allows
that a lien, debt or encumerance CAN exist without being documented
anywhere.

M

Tom Shilson wrote:

I know nothing but I won't let that stop me. :-) In the US smaller
boats are registered with the state. The laws vary from state to state.
Some may not issue a certificate of title. If the state does issue
title, then it would keep track of liens. Larger boats (yachts) are
"documented" or registered with the US Coast Guard. I don't know about
those.

Tom
Of the Swee****er Sea

Denis Marier wrote:

I am a little uneasy to buy a used sailboat.
I do not know of any mechanism that can tell me if there are any monetary
liens against a sailboat. If I buy a boat and pay the seller in full who
will prove that I own the boat. The seller may still owe money to the
bank
that makes the bank the real owner.
One of our club member did buy a boat in the US and managed to obtain
clearance from the lending institution. This may not always be the case.
Many are saying that I may have to hire the service of lawyer to get
clear
ownership other suggested the service of a broker. In Canada, lawyers
are
only responsible for what information they have access or made
available to
them. I would appreciate any comments and suggestions
TIA



Remarkable how little people understand maritime law as pertains to
liens, debts and encumerances.

Short answer: If a debt is incurred against a vessel (USA or Canada)
that debt is against the vessel, not the owner. Maritime law does NOT
require ANY registration of the debt, lien or encumerance in any manner.
All that is required is that the debt be provable. Whether the vessel is
registered federally or licensed provinically or state licensed, the
debt does NOT have to be "on title" to be enforceable. That is a FACT of
maritime law and if you are boat owners, you should know that! The debt
holder can if they choose register the debt, but they do NOT have to!

For example, say you buy a boat, pay for it and everythings good. Then 2
years later you wander into a marina where the previous owner damaged
the dock with that boat. The marina has every right in law to sieze you
vessel and demand payment before releasing it back to you. Of course you
then have every right to try to get the money out of the previous owner
if you can.

Folks, this ain't rocket science. Do a little research before spouting
bad information!

Marley wrote:
Denis Marier wrote:

Thanks for the tip. Does this mean that an original title has to be
updated
to be current?
The other thing is how to I know that the title is current?

Yes, you will have to register the boat with you as the new owner (for a
fee.) You should be able to call the state capitol and get that info.
The state usually has a general number that can connect you to the right
office. Call early in the morning to avoid a long wait.

tom
os the Swee****er Sea

On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 17:51:01 -0400, Marley wrote:


Since you appear to be in N.B. Denis, there are two possible ways that
the boat can be "titled" (which is not the correct term by the way)

A Canadian vessel can be either licensed (Provincially) or Documented
(Federally). If the vessel is Provincially licensed it will have numbers
down each side of the bow. If it's Federally Documented it will have the
name and port of registry on the transom, and a plaque inside giving the
official registration number and registered tonnage.

In Canada, both vessel licensing and vessel registration are federal
matters - the provinces have nothing to do with it.

Licensing is handled through Canada Customs and Revenue Agency.
Registration is handled by the Office of Ship Registration, Marine
Safety, Department of Transport Canada (information from the Canadian
Safe Boating Guide, published by Fisheries and Oceans Canada.)

"Documentation" is the US equivalent of Canadian "Registration" - in
both cases, the more formal procedure required of larger vessels.


--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

If the boat is USCG Documented and was financed, the lender is entitled to
have a "preferred mortgage" recorded against the vessel -- this is a
mortgage which is given status as a maritime lien. As such it enjoys a
certain priority in the event of default. In addition, the Coast Guard is
prohibited from making certain changes in documentation including, but not
limited to, change of vessel ownership, name, and hailing port without
consent of the mortgagee. For this reason many financial institutions
require vessels which are eligible for documentation to be documented and to
have preferred mortgages recorded against them.

If the vessel is documented, and many of the more upscale recreational
vessels are, you can pay a fee and get official records of liens against the
vessel. http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/vdoc/nvdc.htm

If the boat's not documented and has only state registration, the
certificate of title in most states will show an unpaid lien. Contact the
boat registration unit of the particular state of interest and just ask
about it. Some may have websites with the information you seek.

You will want to pay a fee for a certified copy of title. And you'll also
want the sales contract to have the owner's sworn statement about liens and
his release and indemnification.

Len
--
Eliminate "ns" for email address.

"Denis Marier" wrote in message
...
I am a little uneasy to buy a used sailboat.
I do not know of any mechanism that can tell me if there are any monetary
liens against a sailboat. If I buy a boat and pay the seller in full who
will prove that I own the boat. The seller may still owe money to the bank
that makes the bank the real owner.
One of our club member did buy a boat in the US and managed to obtain
clearance from the lending institution. This may not always be the case.
Many are saying that I may have to hire the service of lawyer to get clear
ownership other suggested the service of a broker. In Canada, lawyers are
only responsible for what information they have access or made available
to
them. I would appreciate any comments and suggestions
TIA

Don White wrote:
Evan Gatehouse wrote:

In Canada there are two systems of boat ownership:

- Registered
- Licensed

If it is a registered vessel, you can easily check the title is clear
of liens.

If it is licensed it will have a number on the bow. In BC they
usually start "13K ....". Licensed vessels may have liens against
them and you won't be able to tell. Licenses are for smaller boats
(under 15 gross tons), effectively about 40' or so.

Evan Gatehouse


In some provinces...such as Nova Scotia, you can own a boat without
registering it (motor less than 10 hp).
I have an 18' 6" Sandpiper 565 mini cruiser trailerable sailboat with
6hp Evinrude and it is not registered.

It's the same in BC. I think this actually a federal
regulation across Canada

Evan

Peter Bennett wrote:


In Canada, both vessel licensing and vessel registration are federal
matters - the provinces have nothing to do with it.

You are wrong, Peter.

Documenting a vessel Federally is handled by Ottawa in Canada.

LICENSING a vessel in Canada (meaning numbers down each side of the bow)
is handled by the Provincial Retail Sales Tax office for the province.

You can argue with that fact all you want...you will still be wrong.

Here's a tip, before responding in a huff... CHECK.

And, as I have said already:

FOLKS this is important information. I am still getting the impression
that some of you think that getting a report from the Coast Guard or the
Feds or a bank, or a lien search service, showing no liens or
encumberances means the boat is debt free.

This is REALLY REALLY WRONG.

A Maritime lien can exist on a vessel without any paperwork or
"registration" of the lien. THAT IS A FACT.

M

On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 11:06:28 -0400, Marley wrote:

Peter Bennett wrote:


In Canada, both vessel licensing and vessel registration are federal
matters - the provinces have nothing to do with it.

You are wrong, Peter.

Documenting a vessel Federally is handled by Ottawa in Canada.

LICENSING a vessel in Canada (meaning numbers down each side of the bow)
is handled by the Provincial Retail Sales Tax office for the province.

You can argue with that fact all you want...you will still be wrong.

Here's a tip, before responding in a huff... CHECK.

May I suggest:
Here's a tip, before responding in a huff... CHECK.

From the Canadian Safe Boating Guide:

Licensing, registration and
identification/markings
All recreational vessels under 15 gross
tons and powered by an engine 10 horsepower
(7.5 kilowatts) or more must be
licensed or registered, regardless of
where they operate in Canada. The
process is free of charge for licensing
through the Canada Border Services
Agency (refer to the blue pages in your
telephone directory to obtain the telephone
number). Registration is undertaken by
Marine Safety, Transport Canada.

This is quoted from
http://www.tc.gc.ca/marinesafety/TP/...safe-boats.pdf available
form the Canadian Coast Guard - Office of Boating Safety website at
http://www.tc.gc.ca/marinesafety/TP/TP511/menu.htm

(My slightly older Safe Boating Guide says that licensing is handled
by Canada Customs and Revenue - I guess they've renamed the agency
involved.)

The provinces have nothing to do with it, but they are apparently
advised by the feds when a vessel is licensed, so that they can make
sure provincial sales tax is collected.

_Maybe_ your province has some agreement with the feds to handle this,
but that is not the normal situation.


--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 21:17:56 -0700, Evan Gatehouse
wrote:


In some provinces...such as Nova Scotia, you can own a boat without
registering it (motor less than 10 hp).
I have an 18' 6" Sandpiper 565 mini cruiser trailerable sailboat with
6hp Evinrude and it is not registered.

It's the same in BC. I think this actually a federal
regulation across Canada

Evan

Yes - despite Marley's claims elsethread, vessel licensing is a
federal matter.

However, I understand that some canal systems in Ontario may require
that _all_ vessels, regardless of horsepower, must be licensed - but
that is a local requirement.

--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

Peter Bennett wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 21:17:56 -0700, Evan Gatehouse
wrote:



In some provinces...such as Nova Scotia, you can own a boat without
registering it (motor less than 10 hp).
I have an 18' 6" Sandpiper 565 mini cruiser trailerable sailboat with
6hp Evinrude and it is not registered.

It's the same in BC. I think this actually a federal
regulation across Canada

Evan


Yes - despite Marley's claims elsethread, vessel licensing is a
federal matter.

However, I understand that some canal systems in Ontario may require
that _all_ vessels, regardless of horsepower, must be licensed - but
that is a local requirement.


Still wrong Peter.

You are no doubt quite used to that though

"Marley" wrote in message
Still wrong Peter.
You are no doubt quite used to that though

Marley, tell all about your grand career as an Canadian Diplomat. While
your doing that, continue to move northward.