which is better for single hand crusing?
 

These two choices seem to vary widely in sailboats between 25 and 32
ft. What are your opinions on each. This boat will be a crusier, not a
marina livaboard.
Speed of boat is not an issue.

1) Diesel inboard or over the stern gas outboard?
Outboard easy to reach and repair/replace, no worry of shaft seal
leak and less thru hulls, but small diesel's are very fuel effcient
plus large alternator.
2) Over the stern rudder or binnacle/shaft type rudder?
Once more, seems the over the stern rudder would be less
problematical and repairable even at sea. No thru hulls or gears
would seem better.

Yout thoughts would be appreciated.
Lee (looking for my cruiser)

"Lee308" writes:

1) Diesel inboard or over the stern gas outboard?
Outboard easy to reach and repair/replace, no worry of shaft seal
leak and less thru hulls, but small diesel's are very fuel efficient
plus large alternator.

I've never known an outboard that didn't fail - when you most needed
it. A single hander hanging over the stern in bad weather trying to
deal with an outboard is not a pretty picture.

Also, in my little experience with outboards on larger boats, they
become less effective in a seaway, as the prop is continually near or
above the surface of the water.

And an outboard implies storing and dealing with gasoline in loose tanks.

I single hand my Tartan 30, which has a Yanmar diesel. The fact that
I can just "push the button" any time I need power - no waiting for
fumes to clear as with a gasoline inboard - no fear it won't start as
with an outboard - makes me feel much safer always, and particularly
when alone.
--

Lee308 wrote:
These two choices seem to vary widely in sailboats between 25 and 32
ft. What are your opinions on each. This boat will be a crusier, not a
marina livaboard.
Speed of boat is not an issue.

1) Diesel inboard or over the stern gas outboard?
Outboard easy to reach and repair/replace, no worry of shaft seal
leak and less thru hulls, but small diesel's are very fuel effcient
plus large alternator.
2) Over the stern rudder or binnacle/shaft type rudder?
Once more, seems the over the stern rudder would be less
problematical and repairable even at sea. No thru hulls or gears
would seem better.

Yout thoughts would be appreciated.
Lee (looking for my cruiser)


If you really want to go cruising, then diesel is the preferred option.
An outboard is Ok for getting in and out of a harbour. My gas tank is
35 gals of diesel. I sure would not want that much gasoline on board if
it can be avoided.
I wheel steering and I like it because a tiller takes up a lot of
cockpit space. For novices a wheel is more intuitive ( like a car)
When I got my boat for cruising I bought a Newport 33 for the following
reasons:
Diesel engine
Wheel steering
Standing head room in the cabin
Roller furling genoa.

Lee308 wrote:
These two choices seem to vary widely in sailboats between 25 and 32
ft. What are your opinions on each. This boat will be a crusier, not a
marina livaboard.

A lot depends on what you consider a cruiser. Do you mean a 3 week
cruise each summer? ICW? Island hop the Bahamas? Frequent long
distance passages? Since you don't specify, I'm guessing you haven't
yet done the first, but you're dreaming of the last.

Speed of boat is not an issue.

Of course it is. If speed is truly not an issue, the best option is
an small electric motor that will allow you to get around in tight
quarters. Otherwise, you would always sail with what wind is offered.
Cruisers got by with no or limited power until very recently.


1) Diesel inboard or over the stern gas outboard?
Outboard easy to reach and repair/replace, no worry of shaft seal
leak and less thru hulls, but small diesel's are very fuel effcient
plus large alternator.

There are very few outboard driven boats over about 28 feet.
Actually, weight is the bigger limiting factor. If you go above about
8000 pounds you need a bigger outboard, and the downside issues get
large. Fuel economy and noise are against the outboard if you're
powering a long distance, and they can be useless in some bad conditions.

One of the worst "middle of the night adventures" I've had was on a
friend's heavy 25 footer when a squall came in and changed our cozy
anchorage into a dangerous lee shore, with rocks only a few boat
lengths away. The boat was pitching so severely that the outboard
prop was coming out of the water; we had to raise sail, haul anchor,
and bear off to gain speed before we could tack away from the rocks.

My current boat, a 36 foot catamaran, is one of the few larger boats
offered with both outboards or diesels. About 2/3 are outboards, with
the speed advantages of being able to raise the props and the reduced
weight being the primary factor (other than cost). Maintenance is a
wash; its nice to be able to replace an outboard on the fly, but many
of the outboard owners have had to do that in the middle of a vacation.

We went with diesels, because we figured we would have to get a genset
if we had the outboards, and this would offset the weight issue, which
is significant in a catamaran.


2) Over the stern rudder or binnacle/shaft type rudder?
Once more, seems the over the stern rudder would be less
problematical and repairable even at sea. No thru hulls or gears
would seem better.

Are you asking tiller vs. wheel? I prefer the tiller for small boats,
a wheel for larger boats. If you're asking about the rudder hung on
the stern or a post, that depends a lot on the total design of the boat.

Marc Auslander wrote:
"Lee308" writes:


1) Diesel inboard or over the stern gas outboard?
Outboard easy to reach and repair/replace, no worry of shaft seal
leak and less thru hulls, but small diesel's are very fuel efficient
plus large alternator.


I've never known an outboard that didn't fail - when you most needed
it. A single hander hanging over the stern in bad weather trying to
deal with an outboard is not a pretty picture.

Agreed.


Also, in my little experience with outboards on larger boats, they
become less effective in a seaway, as the prop is continually near or
above the surface of the water.

Agreed.


And an outboard implies storing and dealing with gasoline in loose tanks.

Definitely not true. There are many, many outboard powered boats with
normal, built in tanks. However, a lot of smaller "trailer sailors"
do have portable tanks, which is probably the best way to carry 6 or
12 gallons of gas.


I single hand my Tartan 30, which has a Yanmar diesel. The fact that
I can just "push the button" any time I need power - no waiting for
fumes to clear as with a gasoline inboard - no fear it won't start as
with an outboard - makes me feel much safer always, and particularly
when alone.

I generally agree. Until, of course, when you wrap a lobsta pot on
the prop!

"Are you asking tiller vs. wheel? I prefer the tiller for small boats,
a wheel for larger boats. If you're asking about the rudder hung on
the stern or a post, that depends a lot on the total design of the
boat"

Some sailboats have a shaft coming out of the deck to attach a tiller.
These still have a shaft running down through the deck to the rudder.

A rudder "hung on the stern" is what I'm comparing to. This seems less
of a maintenance issue at sea. By that, I mean one less thru-hull
fitting to deal with.

Thanks for the responce on the engines, that question is answered.
Diesel is the way to go for long cruise's.

Lee308 wrote:
....



A rudder "hung on the stern" is what I'm comparing to. This seems less
of a maintenance issue at sea. By that, I mean one less thru-hull
fitting to deal with.

As I mentioned, having a transom hung rudder is a really a function of
other design issues. For instance, a full length keel is more
conducive to a transom hung rudder. Most designers (and buyers) will
consider the keel design more significant than the rudder design, and
that's really what you should be considering. Perhaps a more
interesting rudder question you might ask is a balanced rudder vs, a
skeg hung rudder.

Actually, to put both of your questions in perspective, you should go
to a large marina and walk the docks to see what's out there.
Remember that most cruisers don't have the luxury to buying the
ultimate blue water cruiser, they simply take off in whatever they
have, or can afford. In cruising spots, you generally see the boats
that were sold 20 years ago as "family cruisers" or "racer/cruisers."

Lee308 wrote:
A rudder "hung on the stern" is what I'm comparing to. This seems less
of a maintenance issue at sea. By that, I mean one less thru-hull
fitting to deal with.


You should do some careful looking at parts of boats. Rudder shafts
don't have 'thru-hulls' although they do have bearings and occasionally
(rarely) packing glands. It's not really much of a maintenance issue at
all, much less one "at sea."


Jeff wrote:
As I mentioned, having a transom hung rudder is a really a function of
other design issues.

Yes very much so.

... For instance, a full length keel is more conducive
to a transom hung rudder.

I disagree here, there are a lot of fin keelers with transom rudders.
Many have pretty substantial skegs too.

... Most designers (and buyers) will consider the
keel design more significant than the rudder design, and that's really
what you should be considering. Perhaps a more interesting rudder
question you might ask is a balanced rudder vs, a skeg hung rudder.


Or partially balanced with skeg.
The issue I see with rudders is not one of esoteric design philosophy
(unless you're designing & building your boat), but one of practical
issues. How strong is it? Is it likely to catch trailing lines? Can it
be damaged by grounding?


Actually, to put both of your questions in perspective, you should go to
a large marina and walk the docks to see what's out there. Remember that
most cruisers don't have the luxury to buying the ultimate blue water
cruiser, they simply take off in whatever they have, or can afford. In
cruising spots, you generally see the boats that were sold 20 years ago
as "family cruisers" or "racer/cruisers."


Agreed again. The best boat for cruising is the one that takes you
there. That said, there are some really poor choices out there... not
necessarily the cheapest either...

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

I would have never thought that this would be an issue. Having started our
family cruising in an O'Day 23 with a 9.9 Johnson and graduating to an S2
9.1 with a Yanmar 2GM (with several larger rentals scattered in between and
after including a couple of schooners) I have some experience with inboard
diesel versus outboard gas.

As our first family boat, the O'Day was a delight. Our home harbor was a
sailboat haven. You learned not to use the engine. In those days, there was
a trash dock up to which you learned to sail and drop the trash into the
barrels. Those who motored were shunned. You sailed to the mooring; if you
used the motor you risked ridicule. Yet, there were times when you needed to
run the outboard. Transiting Woods Hole required use of the outboard.
However, a steep following sea approaching the Hole from the south would
often drown the outboard. The water would come over the transom and the
engine would start to sputter. "Putt, putt, putt, varoom." The look from the
children and spouse would be answered by, "Don't worry, it is just gasping
for air." My look of confidence was not shared by my brain which was
thinking "this is stupid, get an inboard."

The S2 was a great upgrade. No gas cans in the cockpit. No concern about
water over the transom drowning the engine. It was easy to single hand
(after roller furling and lazy jacks; and an autopilot which I swore I would
never use). It also had a head in which I could stand. Prudence still
required keeping the engine running while transiting Woods Hole, but I did
not have to worry about a following sea drowning the engine.

The S2 had a transom mounted rudder. It could turn on a dime. I loved it. I
have sailed a good number of boats, but I still loved the stern mount. I
think it is more work, but for the feel of the boat you cannot beat it.

Tom


"Lee308" wrote in message
oups.com...
These two choices seem to vary widely in sailboats between 25 and 32
ft. What are your opinions on each. This boat will be a crusier, not a
marina livaboard.
Speed of boat is not an issue.

1) Diesel inboard or over the stern gas outboard?
Outboard easy to reach and repair/replace, no worry of shaft seal
leak and less thru hulls, but small diesel's are very fuel effcient
plus large alternator.
2) Over the stern rudder or binnacle/shaft type rudder?
Once more, seems the over the stern rudder would be less
problematical and repairable even at sea. No thru hulls or gears
would seem better.

Yout thoughts would be appreciated.
Lee (looking for my cruiser)

"Tom R." wrote in message
...
The water would come over the transom and the
engine would start to sputter. "Putt, putt, putt, varoom." The look from
the
children and spouse would be answered by, "Don't worry, it is just gasping
for air." My look of confidence was not shared by my brain which was
thinking "this is stupid, get an inboard."

I admire your tenacity during a somewhat difficult situation. You have a
skill shared by few. Your children will never forgot your look of
confidence and will have a grand time sailing.

l. Inboard or ANY type is vastly better than an outboard. Reason: the
outboard prop being mounted far behind the tansom may come free of the
water and have the rpm go 'exponential' when the prop is not in the
water. When pooped by a boarding wave the transom hung outboard will
flood with water which will/may 'hydro-lock' then seize and stop.

2. Stern hung rudders will 'ventilate' - sucking air down the sides of
the rudder - thus making them VERY inefficient and causing humongous
drag. Stern mounted pintel hung rudders are usually an unbalanced
design requiring huge loads to move them off center when the boat is a
'at speed'; plus, are very vulnerable to breakage if the boat slips
backwards such as when hove-to.

The choice for a 'modern' boat: inboard engine with 'under-the-boat'
rudder.


thuIn article .com,
Lee308 wrote:

These two choices seem to vary widely in sailboats between 25 and 32
ft. What are your opinions on each. This boat will be a crusier, not a
marina livaboard.
Speed of boat is not an issue.

1) Diesel inboard or over the stern gas outboard?
Outboard easy to reach and repair/replace, no worry of shaft seal
leak and less thru hulls, but small diesel's are very fuel effcient
plus large alternator.
2) Over the stern rudder or binnacle/shaft type rudder?
Once more, seems the over the stern rudder would be less
problematical and repairable even at sea. No thru hulls or gears
would seem better.

Yout thoughts would be appreciated.
Lee (looking for my cruiser)

In article .com,
says...


When I got my boat for cruising I bought a Newport 33 for the following
reasons:
Diesel engine
Wheel steering
Standing head room in the cabin
Roller furling genoa.

That's interesting. Exactly the same reasons we bought our Dawson 26 plus
it had a center cockpit. Though it had wheel steering, it also had a
transom hung rudder that could be retracted and a swing keel. An
absolutely perfect boat for a novice. You learn the easy painless way that
when the chart says there is no water there, there is in fact no water
there.

In article . com,
says...


Thanks for the responce on the engines, that question is answered.
Diesel is the way to go for long cruise's.

Diesel is the way to go just to cross the harbor. By the way, what ever
happened to diesel outboards? Didn't Yanmar make these great heavy
monsters?

Gogarty wrote in news:FbWdnc2PAfb0bwPfRVn-
:

By the way, what ever
happened to diesel outboards? Didn't Yanmar make these great heavy
monsters?



Yanmar priced them like a Lincoln Navigator, fully loaded, which meant
their demise. Evidently, most boaters aren't nearly as stupid as Yanmar
thought they were. They still sell very well in countries with so much
socialism that gas is $6/gallon, loaded up with taxes.

The Yanmar doesn't even have leather seats with lumbar supports....or
climate controlled air conditioning.

At $2/gallon, it would have to last 187 years to get a break-even point....

Sure..... when hove to in extreme conditions I find that its ususlly
better to heave-to more 'on' the main than on a jib ... so that the
boat slowly backs down and stays with its turbulence slick (caused by
slipping the keel... such turbulence in the water will cause a
brteaking wave to actually break long before it gets to the boat.

My issue with stern hung rudders is that when running off in heavy seas
is that they take a pounding from stern boarding waves. Its all in the
'geometry' of the attachment making the rudder very vulnerble to huge
generated forces simply by 'trigonometry'.


In article ,
Dave wrote:

On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 01:46:45 GMT, Rich Hampel said:

are very vulnerable to breakage if the boat slips
backwards such as when hove-to

Could you explicate? I don't recall ever slipping backwards while hove to.
General a very slow forward motion.

Were you thinking of a situation where you've got large waves at right
angles to the wind direction?

So, whats your point .... and supporting data?
Care to 'articulate' .... if you're able (but I dont think you're
capable)
Get your meds changed/adjusted, you're clearly in distress.

In article , Red Cloud®
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 01:46:45 GMT, Rich Hampel wrote:

l. Inboard or ANY type is vastly better than an outboard. Reason: the
outboard prop being mounted far behind the tansom may come free of the
water and have the rpm go 'exponential' when the prop is not in the
water. When pooped by a boarding wave the transom hung outboard will
flood with water which will/may 'hydro-lock' then seize and stop.

2. Stern hung rudders will 'ventilate' - sucking air down the sides of
the rudder - thus making them VERY inefficient and causing humongous
drag. Stern mounted pintel hung rudders are usually an unbalanced
design requiring huge loads to move them off center when the boat is a
'at speed'; plus, are very vulnerable to breakage if the boat slips
backwards such as when hove-to.

The choice for a 'modern' boat: inboard engine with 'under-the-boat'
rudder.


Baloney! An outboard on a sailboat is no more of an issue than an outboard on
a
stinkpot. And what is this hyperbolic malarkey about stern mounted rudders? Do
you actually know anything about sailing besides what you learned watching
Captain Ron? I've seen plenty of very "un-modern" boats sporting the setup you
describe.

rusty redcloud

Red Cloud,
I piloted a 25' Pearson with an outboard. When coming out of the
channel into the lake, the waves would start to rock the boat fore and
aft, causing the outboard to come out of the water. Yet this was a long
shaft sailboat motor, I'd have preferred an inboard. IMHO
Paul


Red Cloud® wrote:
On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 01:46:45 GMT, Rich Hampel wrote:


l. Inboard or ANY type is vastly better than an outboard. Reason: the
outboard prop being mounted far behind the tansom may come free of the
water and have the rpm go 'exponential' when the prop is not in the
water. When pooped by a boarding wave the transom hung outboard will
flood with water which will/may 'hydro-lock' then seize and stop.

2. Stern hung rudders will 'ventilate' - sucking air down the sides of
the rudder - thus making them VERY inefficient and causing humongous
drag. Stern mounted pintel hung rudders are usually an unbalanced
design requiring huge loads to move them off center when the boat is a
'at speed'; plus, are very vulnerable to breakage if the boat slips
backwards such as when hove-to.

The choice for a 'modern' boat: inboard engine with 'under-the-boat'
rudder.



Baloney! An outboard on a sailboat is no more of an issue than an outboard on a
stinkpot. And what is this hyperbolic malarkey about stern mounted rudders? Do
you actually know anything about sailing besides what you learned watching
Captain Ron? I've seen plenty of very "un-modern" boats sporting the setup you
describe.

rusty redcloud

Red Cloud© wrote in
:

In 5-6 foot seas. It was no great cause for concern.

rusty redcloud


That'd be OK in a lake or fair day close to shore. Does it get dunked over
the powerhead in a following 12 sea with waves crashing over the stern?

The diesel doesn't.....

"Lee308" wrote in message
oups.com...
These two choices seem to vary widely in sailboats between 25 and 32
ft. What are your opinions on each. This boat will be a crusier, not a
marina livaboard.
Speed of boat is not an issue.

Not widely. Most boats 27' and up have inboards.


1) Diesel inboard or over the stern gas outboard?
Outboard easy to reach and repair/replace, no worry of shaft seal
leak and less thru hulls, but small diesel's are very fuel effcient
plus large alternator.

What's to worry about re/shaft seal?

2) Over the stern rudder or binnacle/shaft type rudder?
Once more, seems the over the stern rudder would be less
problematical and repairable even at sea. No thru hulls or gears
would seem better.

Skeg hung rudder-if you're really worried about the rudder, you should be
worried about losing the rudder more than anything. You seem overly
concerned about sinking. You know they have cruisers that are advertised as
unsinkable, may be you should consider one of those.

http://www.etapyachts.com/

John Cairns



Yout thoughts would be appreciated.
Lee (looking for my cruiser)

Thanks. The children are much older now and enjoy sailing very much. Years
later they asked me if some of the situations in which we sailed scared me
as much as it did them. (I never intentionally put them in any danger, but
sometimes a sudden squall would pop up or there would be an occasional rough
sea.) I told them that sure I was scared, but I did not have time to show
it; I was too busy thinking about the options and plans B and C should
anything go wrong. They are all married now, but we had some great sails
together when they were younger.

Tom

"FMac" wrote in message
...

"Tom R." wrote in message
...
The water would come over the transom and the
engine would start to sputter. "Putt, putt, putt, varoom." The look from
the
children and spouse would be answered by, "Don't worry, it is just
gasping
for air." My look of confidence was not shared by my brain which was
thinking "this is stupid, get an inboard."

I admire your tenacity during a somewhat difficult situation. You have a
skill shared by few. Your children will never forgot your look of
confidence and will have a grand time sailing.

In article , Jeff
wrote:

2) Over the stern rudder or binnacle/shaft type rudder?
Once more, seems the over the stern rudder would be less
problematical and repairable even at sea. No thru hulls or gears
would seem better.

Are you asking tiller vs. wheel? I prefer the tiller for small
boats, a wheel for larger boats. If you're asking about the rudder
hung on the stern or a post, that depends a lot on the total design
of the boat.

Our Tanzer's rudder is transom-hung, which I like because I can --and
do-- inspect it and its fittings periodically. When I didn't like the
original rudder, I built a new one. If the rudder breaks, a shelf and
fiddle onboard can serve as an emergency rudder. Being further back
increases the distance between the keel and rudder, giving it better
leverage & a bit less induced drag.

Tiller or wheel was available. I prefer tiller because it's simpler and
more responsive. Installing an autopilot is far easier and cheaper.
Pushed up to the backstay, the whole cockpit is open.

Oh, and we find our Xan just about perfect for local cruising. Have done
a few multi-week cruises on the ICW and plan to do the Bahamas with her
for a few months, but mostly use her as our "summer home" 60 or so days
of our six month season, most mornings enjoying a different
million-dollar back yard.

BTW, our first consideration in a boat is the berths. Dual-use bunks get
old fast. If we can't both get in a permanent bunk and be comfortable,
we move on. That eliminated most of the boats we looked at under 35' and
quite a few larger.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

In article ,
Rich Hampel wrote:

2. Stern hung rudders will 'ventilate' - sucking air down the sides of
the rudder - thus making them VERY inefficient and causing humongous
drag. Stern mounted pintel hung rudders are usually an unbalanced
design requiring huge loads to move them off center when the boat is a
'at speed'; plus, are very vulnerable to breakage if the boat slips
backwards such as when hove-to.

Slight disagreement. If the rudder's at all properly shaped, this won't
happen to a significant degree. I built our new one to NACA 0012 specs
and have surprised some people by shoving the tiller over hard at hull
speed, tracking only a boatlength away from our inbound track.

And when I heave to, we go slowly forward. The tiller tamer holds it
easily.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

In article ,
Red Cloud® wrote:

Diesel inboards have their own set of shortcomings, especially on
smaller boats. They are VERY heavy, have great sensitivity to ambient
temps, endless fuel issues, extreme initial cost, heat up the cabin
interior, nasty fumes, take up space, hole through the hull with a
spinning, vibrating rod through it, far more dangerous to dive UNDER
the boat to free a fouled prop... there's plenty more.

Not my experience after 10-12 seasons with ours, 1400 hours. Our boat
sold with either outboard or inboard (diesel or gas). I regularly "chat"
with another that ripped out an inboard and went outboard, so I can
compare a bit, apples to apples.

Inboard IS heavy, but the weight is more central so the boat hobbyhorses
less. Absolute weight difference is only significant to the racers.
Ambient temps are a wash when both are properly water-cooled. A vent or
blower fixes the cabin heat problem, but we just open a hatch for air.

Diesel can have fuel problems, but we have had ONE problem other than
running out of fuel (bad/no fuel gauge), and cleared that up with a
5-minute filter change. Nasty fumes go away with biodiesel fuel -- love
the stuff -- and/or simple maintenance. Outboards can have fuel
problems, too. Oh gosh, I dreaded each spring's first start.

Now, my friend has a LOVELY "garage" for his water toys where the diesel
was that I lust for. But, due to the designer not putting anything but
engine and stowage under the cockpit, I can do normal chores by just
reaching in, and can crawl around the engine for the rest. Still have
enough room around the edges for a bunch of gear. Yeah, that's unusual,
but was part of what sold us on the boat.

I wouldn't enjoy the times his outboard cavitates, nor when the prop
comes out of the water. (6' waves are *normal* in some locations) We've
cavitated our 16" three blade prop a few times by getting slammed with a
wave. An outboard wouldn't have gotten us out of the harbor those days.

Never enjoyed working on an outboard on the water. If you drop
something, it's gone. HATED replacing an outboard impeller on the water.

Freeing a fouled prop IS a hassle for most boats, but I can free ours
from the transom ladder. Used to have to do it two or three times a
season before the crabbers over"fished" themselves out of business. I'll
admit we're unusual there, though.

Outboards don't hardly charge batteries, critical for cruising.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/