Bilge pump switch
 

We have a new float switch in the bilge that pumps out when activated
at a certain level.

There is also a switch on the panel.

Previously, the switch on the panel supplied power to the bilge pump
switch, so that if the panel switch was off the pump would not run, no
matter what level the float switch. ie. they were in series.

The new float switch has been fitted in parallel to the panel switch.
Now, the pump will run when either the panel switch OR the float
switch is on. Before, they both had to be on.

What is everyone's thoughts about the best format? Series or
parallel?

It was useful before to be able to switch off the pump when in a
marina etc. Now, even if the panel switch is off, the float switch
can run the pump and there is no way to turn off.

Equally, a parallel arrangement allows the pump to run even if the
switch has been turned off, although I cannot see why one would want
to run it manually - the float switch should already have kicked in.

Hope I've made it clear enough.

Thanks
Rob


Replace 'spam' with 'org' to reply

On Mon, 23 May 2005 23:34:33 +0100, Kalico wrote:

We have a new float switch in the bilge that pumps out when activated
at a certain level.

There is also a switch on the panel.

Previously, the switch on the panel supplied power to the bilge pump
switch, so that if the panel switch was off the pump would not run, no
matter what level the float switch. ie. they were in series.

The new float switch has been fitted in parallel to the panel switch.
Now, the pump will run when either the panel switch OR the float
switch is on. Before, they both had to be on.

What is everyone's thoughts about the best format? Series or
parallel?

It was useful before to be able to switch off the pump when in a
marina etc. Now, even if the panel switch is off, the float switch
can run the pump and there is no way to turn off.

Equally, a parallel arrangement allows the pump to run even if the
switch has been turned off, although I cannot see why one would want
to run it manually - the float switch should already have kicked in.

Hope I've made it clear enough.

Thanks
Rob


Replace 'spam' with 'org' to reply

Float switches fail more often than regular switches.
So the parallel arrangement has its merits.

Brian W

On Mon, 23 May 2005 23:34:33 +0100, Kalico wrote:

We have a new float switch in the bilge that pumps out when activated
at a certain level.

There is also a switch on the panel.

Previously, the switch on the panel supplied power to the bilge pump
switch, so that if the panel switch was off the pump would not run, no
matter what level the float switch. ie. they were in series.

I think the common practice is to use a three-position panel switch -
On/Off/Auto. This allows you full control of the pump - you can force
the pump on, regardless of water levels, prevent it from operating at
all, or allow the bilge switch to control it. Obviously, the switch
would normally be left in the "Auto" position, giving the bilge switch
control.


--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

Kalico wrote in
:

there is no way to turn off

EXCELLENT....Turning off a bilge pump is the stupidest thing I see....

"Oh, you animal! You're pumping a tiny bit of oil and crap overboard!",
they shout at you....

"Yeah, lady, but that beats the hell out of the 90 gallons of diesel fuel,
6 gallons of lube oil, 20 gallons of other dangerous crap stored aboard and
the **** in the holding tank when she SINKS BECAUSE SOME GREENIE MADE ME
TURN OFF THE BILGE PUMP!".....I retort....(c;

It's a win-win situation, running the bilge pump all the time...even with
them bitching....

I agree with Larry, if you really must turn it off, pull the fuse.
That will make you think about it and is less likely to be done by
accident.

The best place for an over ride switch is in the bilge where you can
see what's going on. The best switch for that environment is a second
float switch in series as back up before water reaches the stuff you
really don't want to get wet. Just pick up the switch.

Did you see my obsessive pump threads? If not, check this out:

http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Bilge.htm

This system is designed around some peculiarities of the boat we just
bought but does have some advantages:

* High capacity
* Complete dual redundancy
* Equal battery drain
* Protection against slosh "chirping" without having to put cofferdams
with small drains that might clog around the switches .
* Large activation range so long, large diameter hoses won't cause an
endless backflow cycle.

There is an over ride switch. With this system though, I am just
going to wire it to the existing panel switch. It just gets blipped
on and off and could be replaced with a pushbutton (which I will do if
I can find one to fit the panel). If the lower switch is activated,
the system will then automatically pump to the bottom. If the bilge
is empty, nothing will happen. This will not bypass a failed float
switch so I wouldn't set it up this way on a single pump system. But I
have two completely separate systems so it is unlikely that both
switches will fail at the same time. If I only had one pump, I would
ignore the panel switch and wire in another float switch as suggested
above.

As you will see, I actually have three pumps when I need them plus a
manual pump. If I had a solid stuffing box, I wouldn't bother with
all this on a glass boat but ours floats on a hard to replace hose
like many sailboats with short shafts and flexible motor mounts.

--

Roger Long




"Kalico" wrote in message
...
We have a new float switch in the bilge that pumps out when
activated
at a certain level.

There is also a switch on the panel.

Previously, the switch on the panel supplied power to the bilge pump
switch, so that if the panel switch was off the pump would not run,
no
matter what level the float switch. ie. they were in series.

The new float switch has been fitted in parallel to the panel
switch.
Now, the pump will run when either the panel switch OR the float
switch is on. Before, they both had to be on.

What is everyone's thoughts about the best format? Series or
parallel?

It was useful before to be able to switch off the pump when in a
marina etc. Now, even if the panel switch is off, the float switch
can run the pump and there is no way to turn off.

Equally, a parallel arrangement allows the pump to run even if the
switch has been turned off, although I cannot see why one would want
to run it manually - the float switch should already have kicked in.

Hope I've made it clear enough.

Thanks
Rob


Replace 'spam' with 'org' to reply

How about, :- float switch operating a warning lamp, then bilge pump on 3
way switch, ie off, to float switch or direct to supply. I fitted this for a
customer and also fitted a alarm,( but he found the alarm too annoying!) You
could fit a large warning light or even a strobe type, ( float switch are
rated at several amps), which would be difficult to ignore. All circuits
fused of course! The normal 'rule' type switches only illuminate the light
when the pump is running but it seems to make sense that even if bilge
pumping is 'anti-social' there should still be some warning of excess bilge
levels.
Regards Dave

FWIW I agree with Peter Bennett's answer, the three way switch


Larry W4CSC wrote:
EXCELLENT....Turning off a bilge pump is the stupidest thing I see....

Depends on the boat & the circumstances.



"Oh, you animal! You're pumping a tiny bit of oil and crap overboard!",
they shout at you....

"Yeah, lady, but that beats the hell out of the 90 gallons of diesel fuel,
6 gallons of lube oil, 20 gallons of other dangerous crap stored aboard and
the **** in the holding tank when she SINKS BECAUSE SOME GREENIE MADE ME
TURN OFF THE BILGE PUMP!".....I retort....(c;

Or you could take the radical step of fixing your oil leaks and cleaning
out your bilge. Some people actually do this, the same as some people
actually keep their houses clean.

Frankly, I think that if you pump any oil (or other undesirable fluid
such as antifreeze, sewage, etc etc) you should 1- have to pay the max
fine and 2- go for a mandatory swim right in the middle of the gunk you
pumped.

Why should other people have to put up with your oil & ****?

Doug King

Please note - my comments are not intended as criticism, only points
for others to consider while evaluating their own system.


Roger Long wrote:
....


The best place for an over ride switch is in the bilge where you can
see what's going on. The best switch for that environment is a second
float switch in series as back up before water reaches the stuff you
really don't want to get wet. Just pick up the switch.

good point - I may add that to my setup.



Did you see my obsessive pump threads? If not, check this out:

I've been following this set of threads and while I admire your
persistence and ingenuity, I can't help but think that this solution
is just a bit too complicated and expensive for the ordinary person.


http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Bilge.htm

This system is designed around some peculiarities of the boat we just
bought but does have some advantages:

* High capacity

Quite true, but this is just a matter of picking larger pumps. Many
small boat owners think they only need a small pump, but in fact they
are at greater risk because they have less reserve flotation. A small
leak on a small boat could quickly bring the boat down to where a
faulty cockpit drain (or a transom door) permits faster flooding.

* Complete dual redundancy

Quite true, but any two pump system will do this. The alternate
2-pump approach would be a small pump that handles the frequent rain
leaks and stuffing box drips (and perhaps get replaced every year or
two), and a large pump (or even two) that only gets used for larger
volumes. Of course, a lot depends on the shape of the bilge.


* Equal battery drain

I have no idea why this is important. Unless you have serious
problem, the pumps shouldn't run more than an hour or so a week, for a
total of maybe 10 Amp-hours. There is no way you'll be able to
balance usage better than this.

This really goes back to our discussion of a dedicated starting
battery. I may have told this story before, but the one real, on the
water, rescue of a sinking boat that I've done was a case of a boat
that grounded, opening a leak at the shaft. The crew had decided to
sleep until the tide came back up, and when they floated free in the
morning they discovered that the bilge pump had drained the battery so
they were unable to start the engine or use the radio.

There are some advantages to draining each battery equally, but the
huge disadvantage is that when you run down one, you'll also have run
down the other.

* Protection against slosh "chirping" without having to put cofferdams
with small drains that might clog around the switches .

A simple baffle should prevent sloshing without clogging, but this is
very installation dependent.

* Large activation range so long, large diameter hoses won't cause an
endless backflow cycle.

Ten feet of 1 1/8 hose is less than 100 cubic inches, or well under
half a gallon. Its hard to tell from the pictures what the full
surface area of your bilge is, but a 10 foot long bilge by 8 inches
would only have an eighth of an inch worth of back flow.

On the other hand, if there is a small sump, say 10"x10", the back
flow would be about an inch. In this case a small pump, with a small
hose could be used nicely to handle the minor leaks. 3/4 inch hose
has about half the cross section of 1 1/8 inch hose.

Actually, in your case, a small pump with a small hose, mounted low,
would completely eliminate the need for the low switches and the
relays. It would cost less, be more reliable, have more capacity, and
mean that the large pumps only run if the small pump is overwhelmed.
A Rule-Mate 500 or 750 has a built in switch with a range close to 2
inches and costs $48 to $68.

BTW, a hidden cost of your setup is that it will not turn on unless
you have 4 inches of water. On the hypothetical 10' by 8" bilge that
is about 15 gallons or 120 pounds of water. On average, this is twice
the weight of the small pump setup.


....

Good points. This isn't the system I would put in starting with a
blank slate but it's a good solution for this particular boat.

I might have gone with the big pump, little pump setup if I'd thought
of it sooner. I'd already increased the second bilge discharge size
and put in the second line before I realized the backflow problem. My
sump will handle one line but not two.

I also committed to the two pumps when I was thinking in terms of
solid state switches that would never wear out. Basic pumps are a lot
cheaper than the ones with integral switches and I figured the pumps
would go first. Now I'll probably be replacing float switches as the
wires fatigue and break. I hope to find a way to work insolid state
switches down the road.

I plan to keep it pretty well dried out with the hand pump so it won't
run much anyway.

I'll be adding the dedicated starting battery to this boat before
setting off on long trips but, for now, I'm comfortable with this set
up.

--

Roger Long



"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Please note - my comments are not intended as criticism, only points
for others to consider while evaluating their own system.


Roger Long wrote:
...


The best place for an over ride switch is in the bilge where you
can see what's going on. The best switch for that environment is a
second float switch in series as back up before water reaches the
stuff you really don't want to get wet. Just pick up the switch.

good point - I may add that to my setup.



Did you see my obsessive pump threads? If not, check this out:

I've been following this set of threads and while I admire your
persistence and ingenuity, I can't help but think that this solution
is just a bit too complicated and expensive for the ordinary person.


http://home.maine.rr.com/rlma/Bilge.htm

This system is designed around some peculiarities of the boat we
just bought but does have some advantages:

* High capacity

Quite true, but this is just a matter of picking larger pumps. Many
small boat owners think they only need a small pump, but in fact
they are at greater risk because they have less reserve flotation.
A small leak on a small boat could quickly bring the boat down to
where a faulty cockpit drain (or a transom door) permits faster
flooding.

* Complete dual redundancy

Quite true, but any two pump system will do this. The alternate
2-pump approach would be a small pump that handles the frequent rain
leaks and stuffing box drips (and perhaps get replaced every year or
two), and a large pump (or even two) that only gets used for larger
volumes. Of course, a lot depends on the shape of the bilge.


* Equal battery drain

I have no idea why this is important. Unless you have serious
problem, the pumps shouldn't run more than an hour or so a week, for
a total of maybe 10 Amp-hours. There is no way you'll be able to
balance usage better than this.

This really goes back to our discussion of a dedicated starting
battery. I may have told this story before, but the one real, on
the water, rescue of a sinking boat that I've done was a case of a
boat that grounded, opening a leak at the shaft. The crew had
decided to sleep until the tide came back up, and when they floated
free in the morning they discovered that the bilge pump had drained
the battery so they were unable to start the engine or use the
radio.

There are some advantages to draining each battery equally, but the
huge disadvantage is that when you run down one, you'll also have
run down the other.

* Protection against slosh "chirping" without having to put
cofferdams with small drains that might clog around the switches .

A simple baffle should prevent sloshing without clogging, but this
is very installation dependent.

* Large activation range so long, large diameter hoses won't cause
an endless backflow cycle.

Ten feet of 1 1/8 hose is less than 100 cubic inches, or well under
half a gallon. Its hard to tell from the pictures what the full
surface area of your bilge is, but a 10 foot long bilge by 8 inches
would only have an eighth of an inch worth of back flow.

On the other hand, if there is a small sump, say 10"x10", the back
flow would be about an inch. In this case a small pump, with a
small hose could be used nicely to handle the minor leaks. 3/4 inch
hose has about half the cross section of 1 1/8 inch hose.

Actually, in your case, a small pump with a small hose, mounted low,
would completely eliminate the need for the low switches and the
relays. It would cost less, be more reliable, have more capacity,
and mean that the large pumps only run if the small pump is
overwhelmed. A Rule-Mate 500 or 750 has a built in switch with a
range close to 2 inches and costs $48 to $68.

BTW, a hidden cost of your setup is that it will not turn on unless
you have 4 inches of water. On the hypothetical 10' by 8" bilge
that is about 15 gallons or 120 pounds of water. On average, this
is twice the weight of the small pump setup.


...

"Dave Jasmin" wrote in
:

but he found the alarm too annoying

We have a Rule float switch about 3' off the bottom of the very deep bilge.
It's directly connected to the battery through its own fuse, too, just like
the bilge pump. The load end of it is under the radar antenna on the
mizzen, Radio Shack's biggest alarm siren and, atop the mizzenmast, biggest
alarm strobe light pointed up the dock so that NOONE WILL SLEEP WHILE
LIONHEART SINKS!.....She's easy to spot, making spots-before-your-eyes like
that.

It doesn't go off until the water in the bilge is halfway up to the teak
decking in the cabin. I know it works when I pick up the float....(c; I
hope I never hear it go off from my sleep in the V-berth....

Everyone with a flooding alarm you can't simply shut off...raise your hand.

Pity.....

Ours is as "annoying" as I can make it....(c;