I'm not sure that you can generalize and say that all panic stops
are the fault of the driver. Just the other day I was coming up to
a light at a safe distance from the car in front of me. At the last second
a car cut in front of me so I had to brake hard. My fault? I suspect
that if the driver of your truck had slammed into another vehicle that
would be OK. Sorry, panic stops happen. The motor should have been
safely secured so that a sudden stop would not be a big deal. The mast
should have been secured such that a sudden stop would not have been a
problem either. I think you have to accept some of the blame and the rest
is just a bit of bad luck. Blaming the driver of bad driving without
witnessing
the incident is silly.

Doug

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...
My apologies for lack of clarity. I meant to say 100 pounds weight.
Seems
like people are overlooking the fact that this truck did a panic stop.
All the preparation
possible would not prevent some sort of damage. I flew down to Florida
especially to
pack up the boat, so I couldn't take the engine back as extra luggage.
There was no
room inside the boat for this engine, crammed full with dinghy engine,
collapsed dinghy,
boom, etc. Had the engine been inside or in the cockpit, I'm afraid even
worse damage would have
been incurred. It's easy to blame the owner for improper packing of the
boat, but there is no
excuse for bad driving. I have made the trip to Florida dozens of time by
auto, and never had to
make any kind of panic stop because
I kept a safe distance from other vehicles. I would expect professional
truck drivers
to do the same. This driver was either half asleep after making the trip
in under 2 days, or he was
spaced out on something.

Sherwin D.

Steve wrote:

I've shipped several boats, 6 to 13 ton (33 to 38ft) and the hauler
always
preferred and recommended that the mast (or dingy) be transported on the
trailer. They just don't like anything on deck and the trailer is easier
to
monitor..

The owner is always responsible for securing all gear remaining mounted
or
in the interior. I learned from others, much like yourself, the all gear
inside needs to be lashed and secured for the worst of conditions. There
is
a lot of vibration and severe motion when these haulers are doing highway
speeds (or more) and braking for stops and turns.

I always shutter when I see a boat owner transporting any outboard motor
on
a bracket, even on his own trailer. Hell of a strain on the hardware or
the
transom. All it takes is a speed bump to break something, not to mention
a
cross country trip.

Sorry I don't have much simpathy and hope you learn from this experience.

--
My experience and opinion, FWIW
--
Steve
s/v Good Intentions

I'll jump on the bandwagon:

sherwindu wrote:
My apologies for lack of clarity. I meant to say 100 pounds weight. Seems
like people are overlooking the fact that this truck did a panic stop.

So its the driver's fault because he possibly avoided some other
reckless driver?

All the preparation
possible would not prevent some sort of damage.

Wrong. The criterion for proper preparation is that there would be no
damage in a panic stop.

I flew down to Florida especially to
pack up the boat, so I couldn't take the engine back as extra luggage. There was no
room inside the boat for this engine, crammed full with dinghy engine, collapsed dinghy,
boom, etc. Had the engine been inside or in the cockpit, I'm afraid even worse damage would have
been incurred. It's easy to blame the owner for improper packing of the boat, but there is no
excuse for bad driving.

So why do you think it was bad driving? Its possible it was superb
driving! Right now, the driver could be receiving a medal for
avoiding a bus full of nuns and orphans that suddenly served into his
lane.

I have made the trip to Florida dozens of time by auto, and never had to
make any kind of panic stop because
I kept a safe distance from other vehicles.

Now I understand. You're perfect so anything that goes wrong must be
someone else's fault!

I would expect professional truck drivers
to do the same. This driver was either half asleep after making the trip in under 2 days, or he was
spaced out on something.

There's certainly one delusional person here. The person you should
blame is the packer. For instance, he claimed the mast was "was
secured well in three places" and yet it "shifted foward about 2
feet." There is absolutely no excuse for this; the mast has plenty
of positive attachment points, so does the boat. Its pretty clear the
packer didn't know his business.

Jeff,
Those damn nuns and orphans, they keep doing that. One of these
days...... :-)
Paul


Jeff wrote:


So why do you think it was bad driving? Its possible it was superb
driving! Right now, the driver could be receiving a medal for avoiding
a bus full of nuns and orphans that suddenly served into his lane.

Jeff wrote:

I'll jump on the bandwagon:

sherwindu wrote:
My apologies for lack of clarity. I meant to say 100 pounds weight. Seems
like people are overlooking the fact that this truck did a panic stop.

So its the driver's fault because he possibly avoided some other
reckless driver?

You are assuming that's why he stopped suddenly. As I stated earlier, I have made that trip to Florida
dozens of times without having to panic stop. He either
fell asleep at the wheel or was following too close for comfort. Why make all these
excuses for the driver?



All the preparation
possible would not prevent some sort of damage.

Wrong. The criterion for proper preparation is that there would be no
damage in a panic stop.

I flew down to Florida especially to
pack up the boat, so I couldn't take the engine back as extra luggage. There was no
room inside the boat for this engine, crammed full with dinghy engine, collapsed dinghy,
boom, etc. Had the engine been inside or in the cockpit, I'm afraid even worse damage would have
been incurred. It's easy to blame the owner for improper packing of the boat, but there is no
excuse for bad driving.

So why do you think it was bad driving? Its possible it was superb
driving! Right now, the driver could be receiving a medal for
avoiding a bus full of nuns and orphans that suddenly served into his
lane.

Ok. Next time I ship a boat, I'll encase it in concrete so nothing can move about.

Get real. Most accidents are caused by poor driving habits, drunks, drivers falling asleep, etc.



I have made the trip to Florida dozens of time by auto, and never had to
make any kind of panic stop because
I kept a safe distance from other vehicles.

Now I understand. You're perfect so anything that goes wrong must be
someone else's fault!

Excuse me for accusing this poor driver who lied to me about how everything shifted around.



I would expect professional truck drivers
to do the same. This driver was either half asleep after making the trip in under 2 days, or he was
spaced out on something.

There's certainly one delusional person here. The person you should
blame is the packer. For instance, he claimed the mast was "was
secured well in three places" and yet it "shifted foward about 2
feet." There is absolutely no excuse for this; the mast has plenty
of positive attachment points, so does the boat. Its pretty clear the
packer didn't know his business.

No, what is evident is that you probably work for some trucking company.
I have sailed this boat in the Atlantic Ocean and the Mediterranean for many
years through lots of storms, and believe me, I know how to lash things down.

I understand that some accidents are unavoidable, although this one might have been.. What is not
avoidable are drivers lying to you about what happened and trucking companies that claim to stand
behind any damages and then back out when something happens.

Sherwin D.

Paul, Schilter, wrote:

Jeff,
Those damn nuns and orphans, they keep doing that. One of these
days...... :-)
Paul

Jeff wrote:


So why do you think it was bad driving? Its possible it was superb
driving! Right now, the driver could be receiving a medal for avoiding
a bus full of nuns and orphans that suddenly served into his lane.

sherwindu wrote:

Jeff wrote:
....

So its the driver's fault because he possibly avoided some other
reckless driver?


You are assuming that's why he stopped suddenly. As I stated earlier, I have made that trip to Florida
dozens of times without having to panic stop. He either
fell asleep at the wheel or was following too close for comfort. Why make all these
excuses for the driver?

This is one of the stupidest arguments I've ever heard on the 'net.
It was probably a driver like you that caused the panic stop!

....


Ok. Next time I ship a boat, I'll encase it in concrete so nothing can move about.

Or, you could pack it properly. A mast shift is clear, undeniably
evidence that you didn't take this task seriously and now you're
trying to blame someone else.



Get real. Most accidents are caused by poor driving habits, drunks, drivers falling asleep, etc.

Perhaps, but many are caused by other peoples' poor driving habits,
etc. And some just happen. And this was seemingly an accident avoided.



Excuse me for accusing this poor driver who lied to me about how everything shifted around.

Now that's a proper example of "begging the argument."

Perhaps the driver was justifiable ****ed at you for endangering his
life by poor packing.


....
No, what is evident is that you probably work for some trucking company.

BWAAHAHAHAHAHA! Now its the conspiracy theory! (Actually, I'm a
retired computer programmer. I've never been involved with a trucking
company.)



I have sailed this boat in the Atlantic Ocean and the Mediterranean for many
years through lots of storms, and believe me, I know how to lash things down

The evidence is pretty clear you don't. What possible excuse do you
have for the mast shifting 2 feet?

BTW, I'm guessing the outboard bracket was already fractured, and this
episode probably save you later grief.

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...
I understand that some accidents are unavoidable, although this one might
have been..

How do you know, you weren't there!

What is not
avoidable are drivers lying to you about what happened and trucking
companies that claim to stand
behind any damages and then back out when something happens.

Once again, you have no basis to claim the driver was lying! The fact is
that mast was not anchored against sliding forward. The concept of a "spring
line" should be familiar to you.
The fact that the motor bracket cracked was not likely the result of a
sudden
stop, but rather the bouncing of the motor over hundreds of miles of
traveling.
Trucking companies are not responsible for securing the boat other than to
the
trailer.

Sorry, your arguments only point to the fact that the boat was poorly
prepared.

Sherwin D.

Paul, Schilter, wrote:

Jeff,
Those damn nuns and orphans, they keep doing that. One of these
days...... :-)
Paul

Jeff wrote:


So why do you think it was bad driving? Its possible it was superb
driving! Right now, the driver could be receiving a medal for avoiding
a bus full of nuns and orphans that suddenly served into his lane.

"sherwindu" wrote in message
...


Jeff wrote:

I'll jump on the bandwagon:

sherwindu wrote:
My apologies for lack of clarity. I meant to say 100 pounds weight.
Seems
like people are overlooking the fact that this truck did a panic stop.

So its the driver's fault because he possibly avoided some other
reckless driver?

You are assuming that's why he stopped suddenly. As I stated earlier, I
have made that trip to Florida
dozens of times without having to panic stop.

That's great. I've made many more trips without any panic stops than those
with. Means nothing
unless you have some proof that this truck driver has an unreasonable record
of panic stops.

He either
fell asleep at the wheel or was following too close for comfort.

Or another driver fell asleep at the wheel and wandered in front of him.

Why make all these
excuses for the driver?

I have to give the driver the benefit of the doubt without any proof of his
negligence.
All the things you have described up to the point indicate the boat was not
well
prepared for the trip and you are looking to blame anyone but yourself.



All the preparation
possible would not prevent some sort of damage.

Wrong. The criterion for proper preparation is that there would be no
damage in a panic stop.

I flew down to Florida especially to
pack up the boat, so I couldn't take the engine back as extra luggage.
There was no
room inside the boat for this engine, crammed full with dinghy engine,
collapsed dinghy,
boom, etc. Had the engine been inside or in the cockpit, I'm afraid
even worse damage would have
been incurred. It's easy to blame the owner for improper packing of
the boat, but there is no
excuse for bad driving.

So why do you think it was bad driving? Its possible it was superb
driving! Right now, the driver could be receiving a medal for
avoiding a bus full of nuns and orphans that suddenly served into his
lane.

Ok. Next time I ship a boat, I'll encase it in concrete so nothing can
move about.

Now it's clear you are looking for a scapegoat. I believe that it would be
easier to
take the time to prepare the boat properly. Seeking the help of one that
does know
how seems easier than the concrete solution.

Get real. Most accidents are caused by poor driving habits,

"Most accidents" but not all. And even the poor habits of the other guy.

drunks,

And even if the other guy is drunk.

drivers falling asleep,

Even when the other guy fall asleep.

etc.

And any other things someone else may do that causes the truck driver to
have to make
a sudden move in every attempt to save himself and YOUR BOAT!



I have made the trip to Florida dozens of time by auto, and never had
to
make any kind of panic stop because
I kept a safe distance from other vehicles.

Now I understand. You're perfect so anything that goes wrong must be
someone else's fault!

Excuse me for accusing this poor driver who lied to me about how
everything shifted around.



I would expect professional truck drivers
to do the same. This driver was either half asleep after making the
trip in under 2 days, or he was
spaced out on something.

There's certainly one delusional person here. The person you should
blame is the packer. For instance, he claimed the mast was "was
secured well in three places" and yet it "shifted foward about 2
feet." There is absolutely no excuse for this; the mast has plenty
of positive attachment points, so does the boat. Its pretty clear the
packer didn't know his business.

No, what is evident is that you probably work for some trucking company.
I have sailed this boat in the Atlantic Ocean and the Mediterranean for
many
years through lots of storms, and believe me, I know how to lash things
down.

sherwindu wrote:
Recently shipped my sailboat from Florida to Racine Wisconsin using American Boat Transport.
When boat arrived, mast on deck had shifted foward about 2 feet, although it was secured well
in three places.

Why was the mast "on deck?" It's standard practice... and much better...
to secure the mast to the trailer. And if it shifted, then it obviously
wasn't well secured.


.... Driver says he noticed shift while driving down the highway. More like he had
to do a panic stop. Everything inside the boat was tossed about. Hanging nets came down, etc.
Only after the driver left Racine did I notice the outboard bracket was cracked, and luckily the
engine did not fall off the boat.

What??!?! You left an outboard motor hanging on a transom bracket for a
1000+ miles? You're lucky it didn't go through somebody's windshield.

... American Boat refuses to accept responsibility for this, or pay
for
a new bracket.

And why should they? Sounds to me like the mess is 99.9% your own fault.

... There are many reputable boat transporters. I just picked a bad one.

Nah, more like the trucking company picked a bad customer...


Sherwin D.


Are you sure your name isn't Crapton Neal?

DSK

I've been thinking about this - since I did give the guy a rough time
- So just how much acceleration is a "Panic Stop"? Did the mast have
to be "encased in concrete" as he said?

The braking distance, according to
http://www.ortrucking.org/stopping.htm
from 65 MPH is 245 feet for cars, 454 for trucks, not counting
reaction time. To decelerate at the force of gravity (one "G" or 32
feet per second squared), the stopping distance would be under 150
feet, so a truck is nowhere close to that. For a report on actual
panic stop decelerations and other tests using police cars, see:
http://www.nlectc.org/pdffiles/tirerprt.pdf

Since the boat generally has a vertical force equal to one G, and the
force of deceleration is somewhat less than that, then net force in a
panic stop is similar to being at rest at a 30 degree incline, though
stronger, maybe by 20 or 30%. (Even at one G, it would be only 40%
stronger than being at a 45 degree incline.) Clearly, anything not
tied down could slide around, but there is no reason for the mast to
move, or even for the bracket to break.

An other way of looking at this is that when the mast is hoisted, it
will have a force on its axis easily double that of a "panic stop."
Would a slippage of 2 feet be acceptable during that maneuver?

Its pretty clear that the mast slippage was the fault of the
preparation, not a panic stop. The bracket is a little harder to
determine - It shouldn't break from a panic stop, but it could have
been from normal bumps, or previous damage, or both. But again not
the fault of the trucker.




DSK wrote:
sherwindu wrote:

Recently shipped my sailboat from Florida to Racine Wisconsin using
American Boat Transport.
When boat arrived, mast on deck had shifted foward about 2 feet,
although it was secured well
in three places.


Why was the mast "on deck?" It's standard practice... and much better...
to secure the mast to the trailer. And if it shifted, then it obviously
wasn't well secured.


.... Driver says he noticed shift while driving down the highway.
More like he had
to do a panic stop. Everything inside the boat was tossed about.
Hanging nets came down, etc.
Only after the driver left Racine did I notice the outboard bracket
was cracked, and luckily the
engine did not fall off the boat.


What??!?! You left an outboard motor hanging on a transom bracket for a
1000+ miles? You're lucky it didn't go through somebody's windshield.

... American Boat refuses to accept responsibility for this, or pay
for
a new bracket.


And why should they? Sounds to me like the mess is 99.9% your own fault.

... There are many reputable boat transporters. I just picked a bad
one.


Nah, more like the trucking company picked a bad customer...


Sherwin D.


Are you sure your name isn't Crapton Neal?

DSK