First boat
 

I am looking at buying a boat in the next year or so and would like
some input. I have been a member of a local sailing club for a while
and taken some classes and been on the water as much as possible but I
think I am ready to take the next step. My wife has been involved in
learning to sail as well although not to the extent that I have. Our
experience is mainly with racing boats in the 21-25 foot range (J,
Impulse, Sonar).

I am considering a Cal 25 or Catalina of about the same size. We would
be using the boat for sailing in the Chesapeake Bay for day trips and
some weekends. Any thoughts on the advantages or disadvantages of one
of these over the other. I am planning on buying a boat that needs
minimal work, not a project boat. I would like to be able to sail it
right from the start and perform any work needed when not sailing. We
are trying to spend something in the $10,000 or less range and both of
these seem to fit in that catagory for a decent boat that can be sailed
immediately.

From the research I have done they both seem to be good boats for
someone with my level of experience and there are plenty available at a
decent price and in reasonable shape. Any input is greatly appreciated.
BTW I have read the FAQ and have seen what they have to say about
buying a first boat but I am looking for as much information as I can
get.

gooch wrote:
I am looking at buying a boat in the next year or so and would like
some input.

OK, this is the right place.

I am considering a Cal 25 or Catalina of about the same size. We would
be using the boat for sailing in the Chesapeake Bay for day trips and
some weekends. Any thoughts on the advantages or disadvantages of one
of these over the other.

None really. The difference between these two is going to be mostly a
matter of personal taste and which you can find in better condition,
with better equipment, for a price you like. The Cal is a bit more
old-fashioned FWIW.

... I am planning on buying a boat that needs
minimal work, not a project boat.

Good call, but to accomplish this you'll need to do a bit of homework.
You'd be astonished at how few boats... especially in this size range...
are sold in "ready to sail" condition. It sounds like you're already
getting familiar with the boat's rigging. You'll need to have a pretty
thorough checklist for hull, deck, rig, fittings, plumbing, electrical,
and be prepared to spend an hour or so on the "possibles" before weeding
them out. You have one good bit of luck, you're in a great area.


.... We
are trying to spend something in the $10,000 or less range and both of
these seem to fit in that catagory for a decent boat that can be sailed
immediately.


Should be, yes.

Are you going outboard or inboard? Are you locked into a Cal-25 or
Catalina 25? Do you want a trailer with the boat, for winter storage if
nothing else? Given the market, if you're prepared to spend $10K then
you should be looking at boats asking up to $15K or $16K. It seems
reasonable to me to scale this back a bit and look to spend $7500 on
buying the boat and dropping another $1500 ~ $2500 right away on
commissioning. Don't forget the slip & insurance expenses up front.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

I am considering a Cal 25 or Catalina of about the same size. We
would
be using the boat for sailing in the Chesapeake Bay for day trips
and
some weekends. Any thoughts on the advantages or disadvantages of
one
of these over the other.

None really. The difference between these two is going to be mostly a

matter of personal taste and which you can find in better condition,
with better equipment, for a price you like. The Cal is a bit more
old-fashioned FWIW.

That is kind of what I was thinking but just wanted some other
opinions.

... I am planning on buying a boat that needs
minimal work, not a project boat.

Good call, but to accomplish this you'll need to do a bit of
homework.
You'd be astonished at how few boats... especially in this size
range...
are sold in "ready to sail" condition. It sounds like you're already
getting familiar with the boat's rigging. You'll need to have a
pretty
thorough checklist for hull, deck, rig, fittings, plumbing,
electrical,
and be prepared to spend an hour or so on the "possibles" before
weeding
them out. You have one good bit of luck, you're in a great area.

I know a common problem with the Cal is a soft deck and I have a whole
list of things to be aware of on both of these boats. I am trying to do
my homework and not jump into anything too quickly.

.... We
are trying to spend something in the $10,000 or less range and both
of
these seem to fit in that catagory for a decent boat that can be
sailed
immediately.


Should be, yes.

Are you going outboard or inboard? Are you locked into a Cal-25 or
Catalina 25?

I am not dead set on either of the boats I mentioned at this point. I
am open to suggestions on other candidates. I have done quite a bit of
research and they both seemed to meet my criteria well.

Do you want a trailer with the boat, for winter storage if
nothing else?

I had not really considered trailering. I was thinking not.

Given the market, if you're prepared to spend $10K then
you should be looking at boats asking up to $15K or $16K. It seems
reasonable to me to scale this back a bit and look to spend $7500 on
buying the boat and dropping another $1500 ~ $2500 right away on
commissioning. Don't forget the slip & insurance expenses up front.

I was not aware that I shhould be looking at boats that much above what
I want to spend. My impression was that I should be looking at 10%
above what I want to spend. I have looked at the prices for a slip and
they seem to vary greatly in this area from dirt cheap to astronomical.
I amthinking I will not go to either extreme and concentrate on a
convienient location. I have not looked too much at insurance but I
have heard that it is generally pretty cheap (relative to other
locations) for sailing in the Bay mostly due to the soft bottom
conditions.

Hmm,
I grew up sailing in a Catalina 30 and its one of the best boats ive known,
with a couple modifications she could take a real beating from the caribean
seas. she is fat and therefore has alot of room. However its a bit bigger
than what you are talking about and im not sure on the price. You also cant
just pull it out on a trailer.

Sebastian


"gooch" wrote in message
oups.com...
I am looking at buying a boat in the next year or so and would like
some input. I have been a member of a local sailing club for a while
and taken some classes and been on the water as much as possible but I
think I am ready to take the next step. My wife has been involved in
learning to sail as well although not to the extent that I have. Our
experience is mainly with racing boats in the 21-25 foot range (J,
Impulse, Sonar).

I am considering a Cal 25 or Catalina of about the same size. We would
be using the boat for sailing in the Chesapeake Bay for day trips and
some weekends. Any thoughts on the advantages or disadvantages of one
of these over the other. I am planning on buying a boat that needs
minimal work, not a project boat. I would like to be able to sail it
right from the start and perform any work needed when not sailing. We
are trying to spend something in the $10,000 or less range and both of
these seem to fit in that catagory for a decent boat that can be sailed
immediately.

From the research I have done they both seem to be good boats for
someone with my level of experience and there are plenty available at a
decent price and in reasonable shape. Any input is greatly appreciated.
BTW I have read the FAQ and have seen what they have to say about
buying a first boat but I am looking for as much information as I can
get.

As usual, Doug offers good advice. The only thing I would add
is to purchase Practical Sailor Boat Buying Guide. The second
is to make yourself your own surveyer. Not to replace the 'real'
surveyer, which you'll need for insurance, but to to catch things
the surveyer will miss.

As to price....Doug is again dead on. When I was shopping for my boat,
I was amazed at the number of boats listed at $15-20K, but the owner
would let it go for $7k. As true with a lot of things, boats are worth what
someone is willing to pay.
Norm B

On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:53:48 -0400, DSK wrote:

gooch wrote:
I am looking at buying a boat in the next year or so and would like
some input.

OK, this is the right place.

I am considering a Cal 25 or Catalina of about the same size. We would
be using the boat for sailing in the Chesapeake Bay for day trips and
some weekends. Any thoughts on the advantages or disadvantages of one
of these over the other.

None really. The difference between these two is going to be mostly a
matter of personal taste and which you can find in better condition,
with better equipment, for a price you like. The Cal is a bit more
old-fashioned FWIW.

... I am planning on buying a boat that needs
minimal work, not a project boat.

Good call, but to accomplish this you'll need to do a bit of homework.
You'd be astonished at how few boats... especially in this size range...
are sold in "ready to sail" condition. It sounds like you're already
getting familiar with the boat's rigging. You'll need to have a pretty
thorough checklist for hull, deck, rig, fittings, plumbing, electrical,
and be prepared to spend an hour or so on the "possibles" before weeding
them out. You have one good bit of luck, you're in a great area.


.... We
are trying to spend something in the $10,000 or less range and both of
these seem to fit in that catagory for a decent boat that can be sailed
immediately.


Should be, yes.

Are you going outboard or inboard? Are you locked into a Cal-25 or
Catalina 25? Do you want a trailer with the boat, for winter storage if
nothing else? Given the market, if you're prepared to spend $10K then
you should be looking at boats asking up to $15K or $16K. It seems
reasonable to me to scale this back a bit and look to spend $7500 on
buying the boat and dropping another $1500 ~ $2500 right away on
commissioning. Don't forget the slip & insurance expenses up front.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

In article .com,
"gooch" wrote:

I am looking at buying a boat in the next year or so and would like
some input. I have been a member of a local sailing club for a while
and taken some classes and been on the water as much as possible but I
think I am ready to take the next step. My wife has been involved in
learning to sail as well although not to the extent that I have. Our
experience is mainly with racing boats in the 21-25 foot range (J,
Impulse, Sonar).

I am considering a Cal 25 or Catalina of about the same size. We would
be using the boat for sailing in the Chesapeake Bay for day trips and
some weekends. Any thoughts on the advantages or disadvantages of one
of these over the other. I am planning on buying a boat that needs
minimal work, not a project boat. I would like to be able to sail it
right from the start and perform any work needed when not sailing. We
are trying to spend something in the $10,000 or less range and both of
these seem to fit in that catagory for a decent boat that can be sailed
immediately.

From the research I have done they both seem to be good boats for
someone with my level of experience and there are plenty available at a
decent price and in reasonable shape. Any input is greatly appreciated.
BTW I have read the FAQ and have seen what they have to say about
buying a first boat but I am looking for as much information as I can
get.


There are bunches of boats, including one like Xan, below, for under
$5k. Will sail rings around what you're looking at.

Take a look at cruisenews.net, which started as one guy's search for the
perfect boat.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

gooch wrote:
I know a common problem with the Cal is a soft deck and I have a whole
list of things to be aware of on both of these boats. I am trying to do
my homework and not jump into anything too quickly.


Looks to me like you're doing a great job so far.

Have you checked in with either boat's class associations in your area?
You haven't mentioned being interested in racing, but one way to make
darn sure a boat is *really* in shape to be sailed is if it is raced
regularly. For your purposes, you don't care if it's a winner ;)


I am not dead set on either of the boats I mentioned at this point. I
am open to suggestions on other candidates. I have done quite a bit of
research and they both seemed to meet my criteria well.


Some other racer-cruisers you might find in that size/price range which
would probably suit your purposes as well... maybe a tad better... but
certainly worth looking at:

(in no particular order and not all-inclusive):
Ericson, Pearson, Tanzer, Precision, S2, Dufour, Beneteau

There were literally thousands of different boatbuilders over the past
40 years trying to fill this market niche. The more you check out, the
better your chances of finding a really good one.



I was not aware that I shhould be looking at boats that much above what
I want to spend. My impression was that I should be looking at 10%
above what I want to spend.

Nah, go for the gold. First, lots of boats are way way overpriced by
owners who have unrealistic market expectations. Second, as long as you
don't look exclusively at boats that are twice as much as what you can
realistically offer, you're still digging in the right mine.

Also you might look at boats a tad bigger, and forestall two-foot-itis.
A 27' or 28' will cost only a tiny bit more and offer surprising
expansions in comfort & performance.


... I have looked at the prices for a slip and
they seem to vary greatly in this area from dirt cheap to astronomical.
I amthinking I will not go to either extreme and concentrate on a
convienient location.

That's a good approach IMHO... the closer the slip, the more you'll use
the boat.

...I have not looked too much at insurance but I
have heard that it is generally pretty cheap (relative to other
locations) for sailing in the Bay mostly due to the soft bottom
conditions.

It varies according to what kind of coverage you get. You can certainly
get the minimum (although I'd recommend at least $1 mill liability),
just understand that this will leave you largely self-insured ie your
loss is your loss. The liability is very handy when people want to sue
you, the insurance co will send a good lawyer to help you keep that
million bucks in their pocket.

engsol wrote:
As usual, Doug offers good advice. The only thing I would add
is to purchase Practical Sailor Boat Buying Guide. The second
is to make yourself your own surveyer. Not to replace the 'real'
surveyer, which you'll need for insurance, but to to catch things
the surveyer will miss.

As to price....Doug is again dead on. When I was shopping for my boat,
I was amazed at the number of boats listed at $15-20K, but the owner
would let it go for $7k. As true with a lot of things, boats are worth what
someone is willing to pay.

Uh, thanks Norm... how much do I owe ya ;)
If we're going to the library, let me add a recommendation for study
material: Ian Nicholson's "Surveying Small Craft." By far the best guide
to the nitty-gritty of evaluating a boat's construction & condition.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Thanks to all of you for the advise. I feel pretty comfortable that I
am taking the right approach to this, not rushing into it and trying to
do my homework. I think based on the comments I have received here I am
going to open up my research a little to include slightly larger boats
as well as some of the boats specifically mentioned here. Given that I
am not in a huge hurry I think I can probably find something very good
for us at a reasonable price. Having time on my side seems to be a
great asset in the boat market as boats are continually coming on the
market.

I am looking forward to owning my own boat but want to take the time to
choose wisely for the sailing conditions I will be in and my skill
level. I am sure as I get closer and start to narrow the search I will
be posting some further questions about specific boats and things to
watch out for with them.

Thanks again for all the advise. Your input has made me feel like I am
on the right track.

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 07:20:31 -0400, DSK wrote:

Also you might look at boats a tad bigger, and forestall two-foot-itis.
A 27' or 28' will cost only a tiny bit more and offer surprising
expansions in comfort & performance.

====================================

That's an excellent point in my opinion. A 27 or 28 foot boat can be
cruised in relative comfort by two people for an extended period of
time but a 25 can not. The cost differential may not be that great in
an older boat, and will be certainly offset by the transaction cost of
trading up in a few years.

Just another point to ponder. Take a look at the Paceship 26 (PY26).
They are very well built come with wither a diesel or an outboard and
are one of the biggest 26 footers around while still lookinbg nce and
sailing well.

Ok, ok, I;m a little biased but My dad owned one and I have owned one
now for 5 years.

More info at: www.paceship.org
Do a search at www.yachtworld.com

Matt
PY26, Mischief