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Question for Peggie
Peggie,
I see some rather pricey system for pumping air into holding tanks to aerate them. I'd like to try rigging up my own. How much air does it take? Is there a critical amount below which nothing useful happens or does any air help? I'd like to avoid the 12 volt drain. Since we are in an area where there will usually be wake motion, I have an idea for boat motion powered pump. -- Roger Long |
Roger Long wrote: Peggie, I see some rather pricey system for pumping air into holding tanks to aerate them. I'd like to try rigging up my own. How much air does it take? Is there a critical amount below which nothing useful happens or does any air help? The Groco Sweetank pump moves 1.7 liters of air/minute, which is about the minimum that'll work. Two things are important: a sufficient amount of air to aerate the contents, and piping to distribute it throughout the tank. Otherwise it'll only push foul gasses out the vent all the time instead of only when the head is flushed. You can see the compete manual for the Sweetank he http://www.groco.net/parts/data/622.pdf I'd like to avoid the 12 volt drain. Since we are in an area where there will usually be wake motion, I have an idea for boat motion powered pump. I don't think it would produce enough air. The Sweetank requires only 3 watts of 12v power...not much of a battery drain. If even that's too much for your current 12 resources, a relative small solar panel would replace the drain on your battery. It's price of $150-200 seems expensive...but the purchase price is offset by what you're spending for tank products now, 'cuz a properly aerated tank requires nothing else. So depending on how much you're spending for tank products, the Sweetank can pay for itself in just a few years. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 |
Dave wrote:
Over the weekend I noticed that the access port cover for my holding tank seems to have a small leak between the tank and the screw-on (or in) cover. Seems to be a chronic problem, since I had the tank pulled a year ago (another story) and some new fittings installed, and at that time I saw that the PO had tried to seal the port cover by putting some silicon-like material around the sides of the cover. What's the most effective way to make a good non-leaking seal for that fitting? Rubber gasket...or, if the cap is round, rubber o-ring, which you can find if you google Beckson (they make inspection port retrofit kits). Call 'em and give 'em the size. O-rings should be replaced about every 5 years or so. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detai...=400&group=327 |
Dave wrote: On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 01:45:58 GMT, Peggie Hall said: Rubber gasket...or, if the cap is round, rubber o-ring, which you can find if you google Beckson (they make inspection port retrofit kits). Call 'em and give 'em the size. O-rings should be replaced about every 5 years or so. Thanks, Peggie. They weren't very encouraging when I called, but perhaps if I pull the cap and take it up to their location they can match the O-ring. I may know of another source...What's the diameter of the cap? -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detai...=400&group=327 |
Question for Peggie
Dave wrote:
Following up, thanks to the tank manufacturer (Kraco in Milwaukee) I found just what I needed at Claire's Marine Outfitters in Ft. Lauderdale. Seems the closure hasn't changed in 25 years, and they still stock both the covers and the O-rings. Kracor gets 'em from Beckson, so you may have gone through more middlemen than you needed to. Now a further question. The covers, it seems, have to be driven home to seal the O-rings by using a hammer and a wooden block against some little plastic "ears" sticking out from the cover. Ears???? Hammers???? You have to talking about a different inspection cover cap than any I've ever seen...'cuz the only ones I know of are round...the o-ring easily slips over the threads to go around it under the flange...and all you have to do to seal the cap is thread it in to the opening. Would you email me a photo of your inspection port and the replacement cap you bought? peg(dot)hall(at)sbcglobal(dot)net. 'Cuz I can't even begin to visual what you're talking about...much less tell you how to install it. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
Question for Peggie
Dave wrote:
Don't have a photo, but I sent you a rough sketch of top and side views of the cover. You did? Uh-oh... I didn't see it, which prob'ly means my spam blocker got a little too protective and I didn't take the time to double-check its opinions. If it bounced, that's definitely what happened. Please try again? -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
Question for Peggie
Dave wrote:
Resent. Got it this time. It's the same round threaded cap I'm familiar with, but the first time I've ever seen any "ears" on it. I still have a couple in a box of assorted odds and ends... I just took a look to make sure I hadn't forgotten what they look like...no "ears" on them. The rubber o-ring--which should be round (not just the round ring, but the rubber "band" that is the ring) and about 1/4" thick--is what provides the seal. We always just hand-tightened 'em...and never had a problem with 'em leaking, even when we pressure tested a tank to higher pressure than is required. But if you want to use a wooden mallet to tighten it a BIT more, it can't hurt. Just don't overdo it...'cuz the more you flatten an o-ring or gasket, the less sealing ability it has. And to answer your original question...no, don't use any lubricant. The following doesn't apply to an o-ring under the flange on a threaded cap, but while I have the floor and we're on the subject of gaskets and o-rings... If you over-tighten a rubber gasket between two pieces held together with screws, you'll cause it to leak because it'll "pucker"...people do it all the time when they replace a joker valve and think that tightening it even more will solve the problem, when it does just the opposite....makes the pucker even more pronounced, which causes it leak even more. The right solution is to back it off till it stops leaking. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
Joker Valves (was) Question for Peggie
"Peggie Hall" wrote in message
. com... The following doesn't apply to an o-ring under the flange on a threaded cap, but while I have the floor and we're on the subject of gaskets and o-rings... If you over-tighten a rubber gasket between two pieces held together with screws, you'll cause it to leak because it'll "pucker"...people do it all the time when they replace a joker valve and think that tightening it even more will solve the problem, when it does just the opposite....makes the pucker even more pronounced, which causes it leak even more. The right solution is to back it off till it stops leaking Happy US Thanksgiving, y'all... Just a quickie clarification question. I *think* I know the joker valve to be the duckbill at the outlet. If I'm right, are you referring to leaking back into the chamber, or out of the pipe flanges which (at least on my Raritan PHIIs) surround the valve? Thanks. L8R Skip, in rehab and PT, coming along, but nothing's fast enough to suit Lydia :{)) -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig http://tinyurl.com/384p2 The vessel as Tehamana, as we bought her "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." - Mark Twain ..htm?fno=0&sku=90&cat=1304 |
Joker Valves (was) Question for Peggie
Skip Gundlach wrote:
I *think* I know the joker valve to be the duckbill at the outlet. Yup...the little rubber cup shaped thingy with a slit in the bottom and "lips" on the outside that's in the discharge fitting. The flange doubles as the gasket between the discharge fitting and the pump body. If you overtighten the 4 screws that hold the discharge fitting onto the pump body that connection will leak onto the head sole. This applies to electric macerating toilets as well as to manual toilets. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
Joker Valves (was) Question for Peggie
I've never seen a joker valve (lots of duck bills though). From my
visualization of your description what is probably happening when you over-tighten the screws is not puckering of the sealing surface but deformation of the flanges between the screw points causing a reduction in pressure between the two flange surfaces. O-rings seals, when properly designed and manufactured should be assembled with their flanges in contact with each other, ie bottomed out. Obviously referring to face seals here and not radial o-ring seals. BF "Peggie Hall" wrote in message om... Skip Gundlach wrote: I *think* I know the joker valve to be the duckbill at the outlet. Yup...the little rubber cup shaped thingy with a slit in the bottom and "lips" on the outside that's in the discharge fitting. The flange doubles as the gasket between the discharge fitting and the pump body. If you overtighten the 4 screws that hold the discharge fitting onto the pump body that connection will leak onto the head sole. This applies to electric macerating toilets as well as to manual toilets. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
Joker Valves (was) Question for Peggie
BF wrote:
I've never seen a joker valve (lots of duck bills though). Hmmmm....we may be talking about the same part, but Jabsco, Wilcox-Crittenden, Groco and Jabsco all call it a joker valve in their exploded parts views. The only mfr who calls 'em duckbills is SeaLand. From my visualization of your description what is probably happening when you over-tighten the screws is not puckering of the sealing surface... Yes, it is a puckering of single piece of rubber (the flange on the joker valve) between the flange on the on discharge fitting and the pump body. If over-tightened screws are backed out a bit within a short period of time, the rubber regains its shape and seals the leak...but if the screws remain too tight long enough, they deform the rubber permanently...the only fix is a new joker valve. but deformation of the flanges between the screw points causing a reduction in pressure between the two flange surfaces. Huh???? O-rings seals, when properly designed and manufactured should be assembled with their flanges in contact with each other, ie bottomed out. Obviously referring to face seals here and not radial o-ring seals. I think you just WAY over-complicated something that's really very simple... All we're talking about here is two pieces of hardware (usually hard PVC, but can be bronze on older toilets) with a flat piece of rubber between 'em, held together by 2 or 4 screws. You can see the parts in question in the exploded drawing of the Groco Headmate he http://www.groco.net/images/toilets/...-SM/HF-pg2.jpg (click on the drawing to enlarge it to a readable size)... parts #14 (discharge fitting connector) and 4 (pump body) with part #16 (joker valve) between 'em). It's the same on all toilets, and you can see by also going to the drawing for the Raritan PH II he http://www.raritaneng.com/pdf_files/...Ephiiv0303.pdf -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
Joker Valves (was) Question for Peggie
I now have two new questions. Both illustrations of the joker valve show it aligned in a vertical position. Is this necessary? When all else fails, follow the directions. :) A vertical alignment does a better job of preventing leakage than horizontal...and in some toilets, the fitting isn't exactly round. The joker valve only fits correctly if aligned as shown in the drawing. I just took my head apart and there was an 1/8" gap between the lips so it leaked sewage back into the head. That's a good sized gap...and illustrates why joker valves should be replaced at LEAST every two years...every year if you live aboard. However a joker valve isn't supposed to prevent slow seepage, only a flood. I suspect you aren't flushing long enough in the "dry" mode (if you ever flush in the dry mode at all) to move the waste over the top of the vented loop. Even if you have an electric toilet that doesn't have a "dry" mode, the only thing that should run or seep back into the bowl is clean flush water...if waste is running back, you aren't flushing long enough. I don't remember what the orentation of the slit was. Check the drawing for your toilet. If you don't have a drawing, you can prob'ly pull one off the mfr's website...what's the make/model? Second. I saw a three "lip" joker valve at West marine. Is that a better arangement than the two lip valves shown in the diagrams? The jury is out on that one. The X or + pattern was supposed to be an improvement over the slit...but I know of a couple of mfrs who tried it, then went back to the slit. Have a happy Thanksgiving, y'all! -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
Joker Valves (was) Question for Peggie
Sorry Peggie, I seem to have lost you somewhere along the line.
Two topics, duck bill valves and o-rings. Very different things, indeed. A "duck bill valve" is a type of valve like a "ball valve", "globe valve", "check valve", etc. I'm not personally familiar with "joker valves" but my comments regarding probable causes of leaks when the attaching screws are "over tightened" is still a viable probability. At least as I visualize a joker valve. My comments regarding o-ring was in response to a comment of yours that either said or implied that over tightening screws on an o-ring seal would cause leakage. Obviously one should never "over tighten" any screws but the probable failure in an o-ring seal situation is stripped or broken screws and not leakage. An o-ring seal will be designed to have the flanges fully closed when assembled. BF "Peggie Hall" wrote in message om... BF wrote: I've never seen a joker valve (lots of duck bills though). Hmmmm....we may be talking about the same part, but Jabsco, Wilcox-Crittenden, Groco and Jabsco all call it a joker valve in their exploded parts views. The only mfr who calls 'em duckbills is SeaLand. From my visualization of your description what is probably happening when you over-tighten the screws is not puckering of the sealing surface... Yes, it is a puckering of single piece of rubber (the flange on the joker valve) between the flange on the on discharge fitting and the pump body. If over-tightened screws are backed out a bit within a short period of time, the rubber regains its shape and seals the leak...but if the screws remain too tight long enough, they deform the rubber permanently...the only fix is a new joker valve. but deformation of the flanges between the screw points causing a reduction in pressure between the two flange surfaces. Huh???? O-rings seals, when properly designed and manufactured should be assembled with their flanges in contact with each other, ie bottomed out. Obviously referring to face seals here and not radial o-ring seals. I think you just WAY over-complicated something that's really very simple... All we're talking about here is two pieces of hardware (usually hard PVC, but can be bronze on older toilets) with a flat piece of rubber between 'em, held together by 2 or 4 screws. You can see the parts in question in the exploded drawing of the Groco Headmate he http://www.groco.net/images/toilets/...-SM/HF-pg2.jpg (click on the drawing to enlarge it to a readable size)... parts #14 (discharge fitting connector) and 4 (pump body) with part #16 (joker valve) between 'em). It's the same on all toilets, and you can see by also going to the drawing for the Raritan PH II he http://www.raritaneng.com/pdf_files/...Ephiiv0303.pdf -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
Joker Valves (was) Question for Peggie
Sorry Peggie, I seem to have lost you somewhere along the line.
Two topics, duck bill valves and o-rings. Very different things, indeed. Yes...they are. Dave originally posted a question about an o-ring...the topic drifted to joker valves. A "duck bill valve" is a type of valve like a "ball valve", "globe valve", "check valve", etc. It's also a rubber one-way valve...if you go here http://www.sealandtechnology.com/prodrplc.asp and scroll almost to the bottom of the page, you'll see (though not very well) a pair of 'em. I'm not personally familiar with "joker valves"... If you own a boat that has a toilet, you've apparently never done any maintenance work on it...'cuz every marine toilet has one, and it gets blamed--unjustly 99% of the time--for just about every toilet problem. People even replace joker valves in an attempt to solve problems in the flush water intake! but my comments regarding probable causes of leaks when the attaching screws are "over tightened" is still a viable probability. At least as I visualize a joker valve... If you'll go to the drawings at links I posted previously, you won't have to visualize one...you can see one. My comments regarding o-ring was in response to a comment of yours that either said or implied that over tightening screws on an o-ring seal would cause leakage. Overtightening screws on a GASKET...I'm not familiar with any application using o-rings in which screws would be used. Obviously one should never "over tighten" any screws but the probable failure in an o-ring seal situation is stripped or broken screws and not leakage. An o-ring seal will be designed to have the flanges fully closed when assembled. What if there are no flanges? Which there wouldn't be in the application (threaded male cap with round o-ring between it and the female port in the tank) that Dave asked about. Remember, we're not talking about a seal that will have any pressure on it--as it would in a pipe connection--just a cap in a hole in the top of a tank. It only needs to be sealed sufficiently to prevent gasses from escaping from a non-pressurize tank. -- Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
Joker Valves (was) Question for Peggie
"Peggie Hall" wrote in message om... Sorry Peggie, I seem to have lost you somewhere along the line. Two topics, duck bill valves and o-rings. Very different things, indeed. Yes...they are. Dave originally posted a question about an o-ring...the topic drifted to joker valves. A "duck bill valve" is a type of valve like a "ball valve", "globe valve", "check valve", etc. It's also a rubber one-way valve...if you go here http://www.sealandtechnology.com/prodrplc.asp and scroll almost to the bottom of the page, you'll see (though not very well) a pair of 'em. I'm not personally familiar with "joker valves"... If you own a boat that has a toilet, you've apparently never done any maintenance work on it...'cuz every marine toilet has one, and it gets blamed--unjustly 99% of the time--for just about every toilet problem. People even replace joker valves in an attempt to solve problems in the flush water intake! Don't! Just charter. but my comments regarding probable causes of leaks when the attaching screws are "over tightened" is still a viable probability. At least as I visualize a joker valve... If you'll go to the drawings at links I posted previously, you won't have to visualize one...you can see one. My comments regarding o-ring was in response to a comment of yours that either said or implied that over tightening screws on an o-ring seal would cause leakage. Overtightening screws on a GASKET...I'm not familiar with any application using o-rings in which screws would be used. I've designed more than I would want to count. Almost all face seal applications will involve some type of fastener, the exception being threaded tube in a tube. Obviously one should never "over tighten" any screws but the probable failure in an o-ring seal situation is stripped or broken screws and not leakage. An o-ring seal will be designed to have the flanges fully closed when assembled. What if there are no flanges? Which there wouldn't be in the application (threaded male cap with round o-ring between it and the female port in the tank) that Dave asked about. Remember, we're not talking about a seal that will have any pressure on it--as it would in a pipe connection--just a cap in a hole in the top of a tank. It only needs to be sealed sufficiently to prevent gasses from escaping from a non-pressurize tank. -- Peggie By definition a face seal has flanges (flanges = sealing faces). A radial seal as you describe above may or may not require fasteners. But the main point you missed is that my comments were meant to be generic, not specific to Dave's problem. I just want to correct what some people may have understood from your message, ie that one should NEVER tighten o-ring seal screws fully. That may not have been what you intented but that was the way I read it and therefore a possibility others could have read it that was. You, being an acknowledged expert, anyone reading the same as me and not knowing otherwise, may have taken it as truth. BF ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://www.seaworthy.com/store/custo...0&cat=6&page=1 http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books...ku=90&cat=1304 |
Joker Valves (was) Question for Peggie
In article ,
Peggie Hall wrote: Second. I saw a three "lip" joker valve at West marine. Is that a better arangement than the two lip valves shown in the diagrams? The jury is out on that one. The X or + pattern was supposed to be an improvement over the slit...but I know of a couple of mfrs who tried it, then went back to the slit. Here's a vote against the three "lip" jokers. -- Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/ |
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