Sailors Under Power So Much?
 

After reading hundreds of cruising logs, in-, near- and offshore, on
the net over the past several months, I have been struck by how often
and for how long cruising sailors report they are under engine power.
From what I have read, it would appear that sailors are under engine
power for something in the 80-90% range.

Why, then, have a sailboat? For the little time under sail and quiet?
Or is it a need to prove hardiness to oneself and to others?

wrote in message
oups.com...
After reading hundreds of cruising logs, in-, near- and offshore, on
the net over the past several months, I have been struck by how often
and for how long cruising sailors report they are under engine power.
From what I have read, it would appear that sailors are under engine
power for something in the 80-90% range.

Why, then, have a sailboat? For the little time under sail and quiet?
Or is it a need to prove hardiness to oneself and to others?

They can't be real sailors. We used the diesel as little as possible. One
fillup lasted the season. The motor was used coming into and leaving a
tight slip and when we were caught without wind...usually after 1800 hrs.

Most cruising boats just don't sail well in the often light winds that cover
waters a lot of the time. They start out heavy and then get loaded down with
more gear. Many people spend a lot of effort on dealing with how they will
handle heavy storm conditions, but little attention on dealing with light
air - hence the motoring. Here's a boat web site where they went from San
Francisco to Hawaii, through the SP and onto to New Zealand and used
something like 44 gals of diesel for the entire trip. It was on comfortable,
modern, performance design.. http://www.ditzen.com/

Paul
wrote in message
oups.com...
After reading hundreds of cruising logs, in-, near- and offshore, on
the net over the past several months, I have been struck by how often
and for how long cruising sailors report they are under engine power.
From what I have read, it would appear that sailors are under engine
power for something in the 80-90% range.

Why, then, have a sailboat? For the little time under sail and quiet?
Or is it a need to prove hardiness to oneself and to others?

Depends upon where one sails. You have to understand how to sail
to understand why motoring is sometimes necessary.

Doug
s/v CAllista

wrote in message
oups.com...
After reading hundreds of cruising logs, in-, near- and offshore, on
the net over the past several months, I have been struck by how often
and for how long cruising sailors report they are under engine power.
From what I have read, it would appear that sailors are under engine
power for something in the 80-90% range.

Why, then, have a sailboat? For the little time under sail and quiet?
Or is it a need to prove hardiness to oneself and to others?

I "sailed" my boat, when I first got her, from LA Harbor to San Diego solo.
I was determined to use sail only the whole way, but when I realized that
sail was powering me at 2-3 mph and my motor was powering me at 5-6 mph, my
mind quickly changed. I just didn't have the time to sit there for nearly a
week to try to get the boat down here.

I think that sailors use power as little as they can, but as little as they
can turns out to, unfortunately, be quite a bit of the time.



wrote in message
oups.com...
After reading hundreds of cruising logs, in-, near- and offshore, on
the net over the past several months, I have been struck by how often
and for how long cruising sailors report they are under engine power.
From what I have read, it would appear that sailors are under engine
power for something in the 80-90% range.

Why, then, have a sailboat? For the little time under sail and quiet?
Or is it a need to prove hardiness to oneself and to others?

On 22 Feb 2005 14:30:08 -0800, wrote:
After reading hundreds of cruising logs, in-, near- and offshore, on
the net over the past several months, I have been struck by how often
and for how long cruising sailors report they are under engine power.
From what I have read, it would appear that sailors are under engine
power for something in the 80-90% range.

Why, then, have a sailboat? For the little time under sail and quiet?
Or is it a need to prove hardiness to oneself and to others?

=================================================

Precisely right. I live in an area of south Florida which is
constantly crossed by cruising sailors of every type and description.
Even on the Gulf of Mexico it is unusual to see one that is not
motoring or motor sailing under reduced sail plan.

As some one else pointed out in this thread, most cruising sailboats
are too loaded down (and have bottoms to rough/dirty), to sail well.
Based on the number of boats underway with greatly reduced sail plans,
I'd guess there's an aversion to being heeled over as well.

This is one of the reasons for the popularity of trawlers. You get
real engines, with real tank capacity so that at least you can motor
well, unlike most cruising sailboats that don't sail or motor very
well. In addition you get over twice the living area for the same
length of boat.

On 22 Feb 2005 14:30:08 -0800, wrote:

After reading hundreds of cruising logs, in-, near- and offshore, on
the net over the past several months, I have been struck by how often
and for how long cruising sailors report they are under engine power.
From what I have read, it would appear that sailors are under engine
power for something in the 80-90% range.

Why, then, have a sailboat? For the little time under sail and quiet?
Or is it a need to prove hardiness to oneself and to others?

Maybe, but to me it's a mark of the inability to deal with one's
choices.

Sailing is about the most expensive and least time-efficient modes of
travel you can devise. Short of taking a hot-air balloon across the
Atlantic, maybe.

If you have to be somewhere, don't sail.

If you have to meet someone who isn't also a sailboater, don't sail.

If you would rather drive at 100 km/hr then drift at two knots, don't
sail.

People ask me why I persist with my Atomic 4 gas engine. I reply that
I use about six gallons a season, because I fire it up essentially to
get in and out of the basin, which is ten minutes from dock to
head-to-wind and sail hoist. A diesel would HATE that, and as I charge
off shore power, I don't really rely on the alternator.

If I don't have time to screw the pooch (an inelegant but apt phrase),
I don't sail. Naturally, I make time to sail as much as possible,
because sailing is better than almost anything outside of what happens
in a V-berth when you are in an excellent mood because you've spent a
lovely day sailing.

So let the pleasure of sailing dictate your life, if your life
includes sailing. If not, enjoy the damp, expensive, noisy bar.

R.

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:20:33 GMT, "Falky foo"
wrote:

I think that sailors use power as little as they can, but as little as they
can turns out to, unfortunately, be quite a bit of the time.

Exactly. You either have that time, or you don't.

Or you make that time because it is a better way of living.

Damn it, I'm channeling Moitessier again.

R.

Time taken to get to the next achorage before dark with a cruising boat
determines the method of propulsion. On a passsage when time is
irrelevant then sailing at 2Kn, as long as the ride is OK, is somewhat
calming. A 7 day passage will only require a time constraint when a
harbour or final destination is approached.
When we bought our first keel boat then 5Kn was the required speed.
Used any means to attain that. Now a bigger boat and no working
deadlines comfort if the paramount decision maker. Sloppy seas and
little wind gives rise to the noise of the motor, better being noisy
than uncomfortable.
A few observations from an offshore cruiser.
Lyn & Tony
S/V Ambrosia

rhys wrote:
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:20:33 GMT, "Falky foo"
wrote:

I think that sailors use power as little as they can, but as little
as they
can turns out to, unfortunately, be quite a bit of the time.

Exactly. You either have that time, or you don't.

Or you make that time because it is a better way of living.

Damn it, I'm channeling Moitessier again.

R.

Sailing is good for those days when the wind is right and you really
have nowhere to go. However, I have found that when cruising, I have
to engine on over 75% of the time. Think about it. Around here (N.
Florida) we have wind over 5 kts about 60% of the time. A sailboat
cannot sail into +-45 degrees of the wind so that is only 75% she can
sail into. Most of us do not have enough time or patience doing long
tacks back and forth to get where we want to go so .6X.75=.45. So, you
will motor 55% of the time. If you count the amount of time the wind
is very light and the boat only goes about 3 kts under sail alone but
will go over 6 kts under sail and power, that accounts for the other
20%. This does not even count the times you are going down the ICW
because it is actually shorter than going on the outside and you really
cannot sail in the ditch due to its numerous turns and so many
drawbridges sailing is pointless (You really should drop your sails
going under drawbridges). So, in the ICW, I normally use the roller
furling jib only.
All of this argues that a motorsailor is the answer as it can motor and
sorta sail. However, it doesnt sail well enough to really get th
efeeling on those days when the wind is good and you are really going
nowhere. My solution to this problem was to take the old 6.5 hp Yanmar
1GM out of my 28' S2 and replace it with a 13 hp 2GM with 3 bladed prop
for better long term motoring but to keep sailing performance. Even
cruising under continuous power and sail, I burn very little fuel. I
actually considered a 3GM engine but decided it was too heavy and the
2GM was a direct replacement. It might have been better to replace
with a 2GM20 but one was not available.
In conclusion, I think most shorter distance sail cruisers probably
should realize they will motor most of the time and plan for it while
using sail whenever they can.

I didn't own a motor for the first six years I owned my boat - used to have to get a real
head of steam up to coast up the long windward finger to get to my slip! Tough to
single-hand...

I've never actually bought fuel for a powerboat, but it seems to me that a sailboat gets
better knots per gallon than a similar sized stinkpot.

From reading the posts, it appears as if the day sailors
are the ones saying they seldom use their motors. The
cruising sailors have a better grip on cruising realities.

dudley
..

Falky foo wrote:
I "sailed" my boat, when I first got her, from LA Harbor to San Diego
solo.
I was determined to use sail only the whole way, but when I realized
that
sail was powering me at 2-3 mph and my motor was powering me at 5-6
mph, my
mind quickly changed. I just didn't have the time to sit there for
nearly a
week to try to get the boat down here.

Let's see, it's about 75 miles from LA to San Diego, so sailing @ 2.5
knots would have gotten you there in about 30 hours, not nearly a week.
At 5 knots the trip would be 15 hours, so by motoring the whole way
you saved a half a day. Hopefully you'll "have the time" to enjoy
sailing that passage someday.

Sadly, your calculations are off. It's 100 miles straight. Jibing (the
wind was from the NW) makes it more like 120 miles at least, and that's if
you can steer a perfectly straight course. At 2.5 mph that's 48 hours of
sailing. 8 hours of actual sailing a day plus getting into/out of
anchorages/guest slips and eating lunch on the water, that's 6 days. 10
hours of sailing a day plus the above is nearly 5 days. I was the only one
on board and it was storming with 12 foot swells.. I wasn't going to be out
there more than 10 hours a day. With the motor it took 3 full days.

Thanks for your input.

A friend of mine has done several Atlantic crossings. He says that
you can plan on motoring about 2/3s of the way across if you hope
to get across in a reasonable amount of time. Sailing is not as
much of a panacea as some think.

Doug

"dudley" wrote in message
ups.com...
From reading the posts, it appears as if the day sailors
are the ones saying they seldom use their motors. The
cruising sailors have a better grip on cruising realities.

dudley
.

A few years ago, my wife and I spent two years cruising the East Coast from
the Keys to Maine in an Island Packet 37. The IP is a strong, heavy and slow
cruising sailboat. We were on no particular schedule, so we had no
get-there-itis. But we motored a lot- easily 80% of our sea miles were under
power. But when the wind was right, it was glorious. We fondly remember an
overnight passage from Marco Island, Fl to Key West in almost perfect
conditions - 12 kts beam reach, clear night, full moon and dolphins swimming
alongside throughout the night. My wife still thinks that this experience
borders on the mystical/religious.

Today, we daysail and weekend cruise on a J/32-a pretty serious performance
cruiser. I refuse to motor to an overnight destination (Catalina Island
typically as we now live and work in the LA area) because I really like to
sail. So, we wait for the right conditions to sail to Catalina. With the
J/32 we can usually sail in as little as 8 kts true windspeed and enjoy it
and get there in a reasonable time.

So, if you want to sail, get a performance cruiser- a J or Saga or whatever
and load it lightly. But most long term cruisers have heavy, comfortable
boats and load them up. In that case, you probably will be doing a lot of
motoring. But enjoy the sailing when you can.

David

On Carlisle lake here in IL, there are several 20-25 ft sailboats that
go out in the evening when people get off work and want to relax.
sometimes almost no wind, but people will take their boat out with
small outboards or inboard diesel for a smooth cruise.

I know of one guy that has a nice sailboat and it doesn't even have a
mast on it.
he and his family seem to have just as much fun and relaxation as
anybody.

Tim

On 23 Feb 2005 14:56:40 -0800, "dudley"
wrote:

From reading the posts, it appears as if the day sailors
are the ones saying they seldom use their motors. The
cruising sailors have a better grip on cruising realities.

dudley
."
Probably so, but it depends on the boat and general orientation of the
cruiser as well. We don't use the engine anywhere near that much, but
our boat is easier to sail in light air than most pure cruising boats,
and goes much faster to windward.

Also, our habits started long ago as day racers. My wife and I raced
505s for our first 7 seasons together (1965-1972).

The cruisers who motor sail make their own "cruising realities" and
why shouldn't they? If they want to spend more time sailing, they may
need a different boat, or perhaps they should leave a lot of gear
ashore, or spring for new sails.

Our habits entail a sail budget that I hate to think about. It would
be cheaper to have a trawler yacht.



Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


"Curse thee, thou quadrant. No longer will I guide my earthly way by thee." Capt. Ahab

"Tim" wrote in
oups.com:

I know of one guy that has a nice sailboat and it doesn't even have a
mast on it.
he and his family seem to have just as much fun and relaxation as
anybody.

Tim



I know someone who bought a 40' dismasted sloop really cheap. The yard
tore off all the sailing equipment left and cut down the keel by about
half, increasing their load capacity by a lot! He installed a 4 cylinder
Yanmar in his new "trawler" and off they went in their shallow-draft
trawler. They still have it many years later.....(c;

He always tells everyone diesel fuel and engines are LOTS cheaper than new
sails and rigging!

wrote:
... I have been struck by how
often and for how long cruising sailors report they are under
engine power. From what I have read, it would appear that sailors are
under engine power for something in the 80-90% range.

This depends to an extent on how one defines sailing, or cruising, or both.
I suspect the majority of sailboat owners are weekenders whose calendar is
not their own. This means getting back to work on Monday, etc., and that
means diesel. The same constraints apply to ICW travelers who want to make
the requisite 50 miles each day to keep on "schedule" and get where it's
warm.

On an offshore trip things change, and if you are heading over to Bermuda or
beyond, you get more concerned with comfort, safety, and other creature
comforts, and "flopping along" in light air doesn't seem much of a hardship.
I cannot power all the way to Bermuda, but my little boat has sailed there
several times with no ill effects. This isn't an either or thing. If you
are running from Charleston down to Saint Mary's Entrance offshore, I don't
think you will want to sit around and wait for wind when things go light

I must say that the only time I remember motoring past a boat under sail in
light air is when daysailing in protected waters. Make no mistake about it:
that diesel is what makes sailing possible for the vast majority of cruising
sailors.

--
Good luck and good sailing.
s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat
http://kerrydeare.home.comcast.net/

Larry W4CSC wrote:
I know someone who bought a 40' dismasted sloop really cheap. The yard
tore off all the sailing equipment left and cut down the keel by about
half, increasing their load capacity by a lot! He installed a 4 cylinder
Yanmar in his new "trawler" and off they went in their shallow-draft
trawler. They still have it many years later.....(c;

He always tells everyone diesel fuel and engines are LOTS cheaper than new
sails and rigging!


I think I know that guy... are his initials MR and the boat named after
a popular children's storybook character? If so, that's a great
conversion.... a better looking & more practical boat as a trawler than
it was as a sailboat!

People ask us if it's much more expensive cruising in a trawler
(actually I prefer to call ours a "tugboat") buying all that fuel... the
truth is that it's one of our lowest line-item budget entries. Insurance
and dockage are much much more, and would cost just as much (or more)
for a sailboat.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:38:09 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
dougdotson@NOSPAMcablespeedNOSPAMcom wrote:


Motor 2/3 of the way across tha Atlantic !?!
Very few cruising sailboats could carry enough fuel to even get
remotely close to being able to do that! I don't know what kind of
articles and books you al have been reading, but most books about
cruising and long ocean passages reveal that you sail most of the time
because there isn't enough fuel to power very far if you wanted to. I
have done 3 round trips to Bermuda from Annapolis and most of that was
done under sail. Now if you are talking about weekend and week long
cruises in the summer done by people with jobs, it is quite likley
that the days you are out may be very light air and you either motor
or don't get far. I figure some years we are lucky and can sail over
2/3s of time and some years the weather just sucks for our cruises and
we get under 1/3 sailing.

A friend of mine has done several Atlantic crossings. He says that
you can plan on motoring about 2/3s of the way across if you hope
to get across in a reasonable amount of time. Sailing is not as
much of a panacea as some think.

Doug

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 07:33:28 -0500, "Armond Perretta"
wrote:

wrote:
... I have been struck by how
often and for how long cruising sailors report they are under
engine power. From what I have read, it would appear that sailors are
under engine power for something in the 80-90% range.

This depends to an extent on how one defines sailing, or cruising, or both.
I suspect the majority of sailboat owners are weekenders whose calendar is
not their own. This means getting back to work on Monday, etc., and that
means diesel. The same constraints apply to ICW travelers who want to make
the requisite 50 miles each day to keep on "schedule" and get where it's
warm.

On an offshore trip things change, and if you are heading over to Bermuda or
beyond, you get more concerned with comfort, safety, and other creature
comforts, and "flopping along" in light air doesn't seem much of a hardship.
I cannot power all the way to Bermuda, but my little boat has sailed there
several times with no ill effects. This isn't an either or thing. If you
are running from Charleston down to Saint Mary's Entrance offshore, I don't
think you will want to sit around and wait for wind when things go light

I must say that the only time I remember motoring past a boat under sail in
light air is when daysailing in protected waters. Make no mistake about it:
that diesel is what makes sailing possible for the vast majority of cruising
sailors.

Good point. One thing we do to maximize sailing is avoid choosing our
destination as long as possible. Then, when we have chosen, we
calculate the motoring radii to it for 1, 2, 3 hours in case the wind
dies. That way we can go on sailing in light air as long as possible.

How to choose the time we would like to arrive? If we aren't trying to
make distance, it might be to allow cocktails and picture taking in
daylight.

We can follow this procedure most of the time because we normally
cruise off season. The coming season will be different, since we will
be on the New England coast during July and August. There may be
problems of crowds.



Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


"Curse thee, thou quadrant. No longer will I guide my earthly way by thee." Capt. Ahab

You are dead right on this.

These are the folks who never really learned to sail (on small boats)
Got the idea of buying a BIG boat because the interior looked better
than the Winnabago they were looking at .........

Very sad.


In article , Larry W4CSC
wrote:

wrote in
oups.com:

After reading hundreds of cruising logs, in-, near- and offshore, on
the net over the past several months, I have been struck by how often
and for how long cruising sailors report they are under engine power.
From what I have read, it would appear that sailors are under engine
power for something in the 80-90% range.

Why, then, have a sailboat? For the little time under sail and quiet?
Or is it a need to prove hardiness to oneself and to others?



It's so saddening to see a beautiful sailboat waiting for the Wappoo Cut
bridge to open so it can be dragged, kicking and screaming for help, down
that awful ditch towards Florida......especially when offshore conditions
are 15-20 knots on a great broad reach in 2-3' seas...damned near perfect.
Can't be the Gulf Stream as you gotta go offshore a long ways here to get
into that going north....

How sad, indeed.

Most of them shoulda bought a MOTORHOME! They're in WAY too much of a
hurry for ANY kinda boat!

I think it was a joke.


"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:59:18 -0800, said:

better knots per gallon

That pretty much says it all about the credibility of this poster.

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:32:53 -0500, Rodney Myrvaagnes
wrote:

The coming season will be different, since we will
be on the New England coast during July and August. There may be
problems of crowds.

======================================

If you want to avoid crowds anywhere, but especially in New England,
check your charts for harbors and coves that look uncharted or
impossible to get in. Scout them out with your dinghy or local
knowledge, and you can have the whole place to yourself on many
nights.

Please don't ask for specifics, my lips are sealed. :-)

I thought this was a sailing forum, not a grammer forum. Of course I meant the distance,
not the speed.

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 01:31:25 GMT, "Falky foo" wrote:

I think it was a joke.


"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:59:18 -0800, said:

better knots per gallon

That pretty much says it all about the credibility of this poster.

DSK wrote in
:

I think I know that guy... are his initials MR and the boat named after
a popular children's storybook character? If so, that's a great
conversion.... a better looking & more practical boat as a trawler than
it was as a sailboat!


Nope....JD and the boat's named after a computer part....(c;

Rich Hampel wrote in
:

You are dead right on this.

These are the folks who never really learned to sail (on small boats)
Got the idea of buying a BIG boat because the interior looked better
than the Winnabago they were looking at .........

Very sad.


The marinas in Charleston are full of unused "dock condos". It's amazing
how many never even get a visit from their owners!

Larry W4CSC wrote:

Rich Hampel wrote in
:

You are dead right on this.

These are the folks who never really learned to sail (on small boats)
Got the idea of buying a BIG boat because the interior looked better
than the Winnabago they were looking at .........

Very sad.

The marinas in Charleston are full of unused "dock condos". It's amazing
how many never even get a visit from their owners!

I don't think it is sad at all. I would rather sail a little bit, and
motor sail a lot and just motor some and be going somewhere on the
boat that I would sit at the dock somewhere. The marina queens are
what are really sad.

It isn't that I have to travel fast. It is that I have to get from
one safe place to another safe place. I like going someplace.

The nice thing about traveling by boat is that you bring your bed with
you and you don't have to pack and unpack. The motion of a sailboat
is nicer (even under power) with any kind of waves. I would never
have an RV - too much hassle.


grandma Rosalie

I think I know that guy... are his initials MR and the boat named after
a popular children's storybook character?

Larry W4CSC wrote:
Nope....JD and the boat's named after a computer part....(c;


OK, that's one to look forward to then.

DSK

I "sailed" my boat, when I first got her, from LA Harbor to
San Diego

OK, that's a SE heading.

sail was powering me at 2-3 mph

That's not too fast.

(the wind was from the NW)

So you were going dead downwind.

and it was storming with 12 foot swells.

So there was plenty of wind.

And you could only do 2-3 mph! Are you sure you had your
sails up?

dudley
..

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:07:10 -0400, Terry Spragg
wrote:

wrote:

I thought this was a sailing forum, not a grammer forum. Of course I meant the distance,
not the speed.

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 01:31:25 GMT, "Falky foo" wrote:

I think it was a joke.

"Dave" wrote in message
...

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:59:18 -0800, said:
better knots per gallon

That pretty much says it all about the credibility of this poster.


That pretty much says it all about the sensitivities of that poster,
the eagerness to be con testicular, all that. Bloody brilliant!
Knots per hour, or knots per gallon does say it all quite well,
especially to an engineering mind:-)

Actually, an engineering mind would be more likely to use the current
meaning of 'knot,'--- 'nautical mile per hour.' In that case, the
engineering mind would read 'knots per hour' as an acceleration rate,
not a speed. "Knots per gallon' ?? I don't know.

However 'knot' was used in the 17th c to mean 'nautical mile' acc to
the OED, so maybe a 300-year-old engineer would read it as you say.





Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a

Entering your freshman dorm for the first time, and seeing
an axe head come through the door on your right.