heating
 

Hi!

I am planning a small sailing trip this winter and would like some advice
on heating.

We'll be sailing in the northern adriatic sea by christmas time. Water
temperature by that time are still above 10 deg. C. (up to 13, it seems).
The boat is about 35' and with no kind of heating/cooling system (well,
it has a fridge).

My main concern is to get the "dinette" warm (at least) for a couple of
hours a day, from when we stop sailing to when we go to sleep. Warm means
being able to eat without wearing heavy jackets and being able to dry wet
clothes.

Since this is a first-time experience i will not buy some expensive (but
surely VERY useful) system (like WEBASTO). It could even be the last time,
so I was trying to do it cheap.

I have some experience in dinghy winter-sailing (snow, ice, blue hands,
etc. etc.). But that's kind of different, because after a couple of hours
you can always have a warm shower and bed!

So any kind of other advice would be greatly appreciated!

thanks
-michele-

You don't say how many will be onboard.. If you have several or more in your
crew, then body heat in a closed cabin will produce enough comfort to allow
the removal of jackets (or down to sweaters). However, the humidity will
raise significantly.

Without a supplimental heating unit, your not going to be able to dry
clothing and even the modern fabrics simply 'give up' their moisture to the
cabin air. Be prepared for some steamed up portholes and dripping metal
fitting in the cabin area. Even with a cabin heater, the air, albeit warm
will still carry all the moisture from wet gear. If the weather is dry
outside, I recommend air drying the jackets in the wind to get rid of as
much moisture as possible, then warm them in the cabin. Also a wet gear
locker or shower stall is a good place to put anything that is dripping wet.
This lets a lot of the water go down the drain or into the bilge.

I know of people who try to heat with the propane galley stove and this is
or any other unvented heat source is dangerous since it will burn up the
oxygen and produces carbinmonoxide.

If your engine is FW cooled you might consider installing a heater coil in
this circuit and heat the cabin up while the engine is running. SW cooled
engine don't get hot enough to do this (mine only gets to 140 F).

I won't recomment any of the ventless heater, but others may have favorable
comments FWIW.

Steve
s/v Good Intentions

rosso wrote in
:

Hi!

I am planning a small sailing trip this winter and would like some
advice on heating.

We'll be sailing in the northern adriatic sea by christmas time. Water
temperature by that time are still above 10 deg. C. (up to 13, it
seems). The boat is about 35' and with no kind of heating/cooling
system (well, it has a fridge).

My main concern is to get the "dinette" warm (at least) for a couple
of hours a day, from when we stop sailing to when we go to sleep. Warm
means being able to eat without wearing heavy jackets and being able
to dry wet clothes.

Since this is a first-time experience i will not buy some expensive
(but surely VERY useful) system (like WEBASTO). It could even be the
last time, so I was trying to do it cheap.

I have some experience in dinghy winter-sailing (snow, ice, blue
hands, etc. etc.). But that's kind of different, because after a
couple of hours you can always have a warm shower and bed!

So any kind of other advice would be greatly appreciated!

thanks
-michele-

Here we use an alcohol heater (Origo 5100). A bit expensive but safe.

You have to leave an opening to the outside for two reasons. The heater
consumes oxygen which must be replaced, and to let the humidity out.

I would not sleep while the heater is burning.

During the night, leave an opening also. It will not be colder but the
humidity will stay at an acceptable level.

In a marina, we use a low power (500 W) portable electric heater. It does
not produce humidity and if there is an opening to the outside it will
dry the inside of the boat

JM

Since this is a first-time experience i will not buy some expensive (but
surely VERY useful) system (like WEBASTO). It could even be the last time,
so I was trying to do it cheap.

An Origo "Heat-Pal" alcohol heater will heat things up safely,
but it will produce a lot of condensation and some people don't
like the smell. A small propane catalytic heater may also work
for you. Just make sure it's certified for indoor use and shut it
off before you go to sleep. Both of these heaters will use up
oxygen so make sure you have plenty of ventilation while they're
burning. Portable heaters can be a real fire and burn hazard.
Also make sure you burn off any shipping oil before you put it on
the boat. Be very careful and you should be fine.

On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 15:48:42 GMT, rosso wrote:

Hi!

I am planning a small sailing trip this winter and would like some advice
on heating.

We'll be sailing in the northern adriatic sea by christmas time. Water
temperature by that time are still above 10 deg. C. (up to 13, it seems).
The boat is about 35' and with no kind of heating/cooling system (well,
it has a fridge).

What about a bulkhead mounted diesel heater of the Dickenson type?
Sure, you need a small chimney, but it uses fuel you likely already
have, and its profile is small.

It's not expensive when compared to boat-wide systems like ESPAR, etc.

Small fans pointed into the berths can send warm saloon air into the
ends of the boat to a degree.

R.

Friends have two of those heaters for a 41 foot boat - they stay toasty warm. I think
they added a small fan to help with the chimney draft.

Currently, they're wintering aboard in Newfoundland (!), so they seem to be confident
in their heating ability.



"rhys" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 15:48:42 GMT, rosso wrote:

Hi!

I am planning a small sailing trip this winter and would like some advice
on heating.

We'll be sailing in the northern adriatic sea by christmas time. Water
temperature by that time are still above 10 deg. C. (up to 13, it seems).
The boat is about 35' and with no kind of heating/cooling system (well,
it has a fridge).

What about a bulkhead mounted diesel heater of the Dickenson type?
Sure, you need a small chimney, but it uses fuel you likely already
have, and its profile is small.

It's not expensive when compared to boat-wide systems like ESPAR, etc.

Small fans pointed into the berths can send warm saloon air into the
ends of the boat to a degree.

R.

On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 15:48:42 GMT, rosso wrote:

Dickinson makes a solid fuel heater.

http://www.dickinsonmarine.com/shop5...p?catalogid=28

It must be vented.

Jack

__________________________________________________
Jack Dale
Swiftsure Sailing Academy
Director/ISPA and CYA Instructor
http://www.swiftsuresailing.com
Phone: 1 (877) 470-SAIL (toll free)
__________________________________________________


Since this is a first-time experience i will not buy some expensive (but
surely VERY useful) system (like WEBASTO). It could even be the last time,
so I was trying to do it cheap.

A clay flower pot upside down over the stove burner.

G
"rosso" wrote in message
.. .
Hi!

I am planning a small sailing trip this winter and would like some advice
on heating.

We'll be sailing in the northern adriatic sea by christmas time. Water
temperature by that time are still above 10 deg. C. (up to 13, it seems).
The boat is about 35' and with no kind of heating/cooling system (well,
it has a fridge).

My main concern is to get the "dinette" warm (at least) for a couple of
hours a day, from when we stop sailing to when we go to sleep. Warm means
being able to eat without wearing heavy jackets and being able to dry wet
clothes.

Since this is a first-time experience i will not buy some expensive (but
surely VERY useful) system (like WEBASTO). It could even be the last time,
so I was trying to do it cheap.

I have some experience in dinghy winter-sailing (snow, ice, blue hands,
etc. etc.). But that's kind of different, because after a couple of hours
you can always have a warm shower and bed!

So any kind of other advice would be greatly appreciated!

thanks
-michele-

Let me second Gordon's suggestion. We live in NW Washington state, where
the winters are not bitter cold, but bloody chilly. A flower pot--make SURE
it is clay, and not plastic--about 6-8" in diameter will do an amazing job
of heating the cabin, with radiant heat that seems to permeate all over the
place. It is a very effective, very cheap sort of makeshift heater, but
should do the trick for you. Cheers.


"Gordon" wrote in message
. ..
A clay flower pot upside down over the stove burner.

G
"rosso" wrote in message
.. .
Hi!

I am planning a small sailing trip this winter and would like some advice
on heating.

We'll be sailing in the northern adriatic sea by christmas time. Water
temperature by that time are still above 10 deg. C. (up to 13, it seems).
The boat is about 35' and with no kind of heating/cooling system (well,
it has a fridge).

My main concern is to get the "dinette" warm (at least) for a couple of
hours a day, from when we stop sailing to when we go to sleep. Warm means
being able to eat without wearing heavy jackets and being able to dry wet
clothes.

Since this is a first-time experience i will not buy some expensive (but
surely VERY useful) system (like WEBASTO). It could even be the last
time,
so I was trying to do it cheap.

I have some experience in dinghy winter-sailing (snow, ice, blue hands,
etc. etc.). But that's kind of different, because after a couple of hours
you can always have a warm shower and bed!

So any kind of other advice would be greatly appreciated!

thanks
-michele-

If you use a heater without a vent, the burning of any fuel (propane,
alcohol etc.) will produce a warm but humid boat.

Just running a gas stove with the clay flowerpot will work to warm you up
but keep a hatch open for fresh air.

A bulkhead mounted heater using diesel, kerosene, or propane is the next
step up in cost and complexity. In North America, about $400-500 USD for a
decent one with an exhaust pipe. I had a Force 10 propane "cozy cabin"
heater 5000 BTU heater on our 30' boat. 10 minutes on high would heat it
hotter than you would like and you would quickly have to reduce the heat or
you would start to sweat.


--
Evan Gatehouse

you'll have to rewrite my email address to get to me
ceilydh AT 3web dot net
(fools the spammers)

I 'pologize for shouting, but this is important.

Putting a flowerpot over a stove heater is a recipe for carbon monoxide.
If you want to die, go ahead and do this for heat in your boat.


"Gordon" wrote ...
A clay flower pot upside down over the stove burner.


R.W. Behan wrote:
Let me second Gordon's suggestion. We live in NW Washington state, where
the winters are not bitter cold, but bloody chilly. A flower pot--make SURE
it is clay, and not plastic--about 6-8" in diameter will do an amazing job
of heating the cabin, with radiant heat that seems to permeate all over the
place. It is a very effective, very cheap sort of makeshift heater, but
should do the trick for you.

The problem here is that there is no way of guessing what the airflow
into the burner is going to be, or the exhaust... most flowerpots have a
small hole in the bottom which becomes the exhaust. A flowerpot over the
burner creates a partial recirculation of air within a combustion
chamber, with the result that it will *always* produce a higher
percentage of carbon monoxide than an open flame, and there is a high
risk that it will put out dangerous levels of CO.

Remember too, CO builds up in the body, you can suffocate from CO
poisoning in the presence of fresh air.

In short, using a flowerpot over a stove burner to heat the cabin is a
BAD IDEA!

Regards
Doug King

Carbon monoxide still kills the odd boater (as mentioned in other replies).
I wouldn't run any kind of open flame inside my cabin, even assuming you
have fresh intake air, without a CO detector (but I don't know how reliable
they are). In fact, I wouldn't run a generator anywhere on the boat without
a CO detector.

But what about that? Do you have a generator? Would it make sense to use one
to run an electric heater? That would keep the combustion out of the cabin
itself (although fumes can still get everywhere, and you have to be careful,
especially if there is no wind...).

OTOH, I know that on the few occasions when I've used an electric heater
while on shore power, the heat vanishes almost immediately as soon as I open
the companionway.

====

Charles T. Low
www.boatdocking.com

====

"rosso" wrote in message
.. .
Hi!

...
We'll be sailing in the northern adriatic sea by christmas time...

I am not really sure why a gas burner with a ceramic flower pot over
it would lead to more carbon monoxide than a gas burner without one.
I am assuming the pot is upside down in the same location as a pot or
pan would be, and not directly down on the stove, so there wouldn't be
any more air restriction than with a pot or pan.

In any case - open flames are run inside the cabin all the time with
oil lamps, stoves, and heaters - some of which are oil fired and some
are gas. Mostly the heaters have a flue to exhaust the gases
generated.


"Charles T. Low" [withoutUN] wrote:

Carbon monoxide still kills the odd boater (as mentioned in other replies).
I wouldn't run any kind of open flame inside my cabin, even assuming you
have fresh intake air, without a CO detector (but I don't know how reliable
they are). In fact, I wouldn't run a generator anywhere on the boat without
a CO detector.

I have heard that propane will set off the CO detectors. We have the
CO detectors in our cabin(s) even though we have no heater (other than
electric) there to detect CO from any source including the engine,
even though diesel doesn't seem to generate as much CO as gas.

We don't have a genset because Bob doesn't want a gasoline one (for
reasons of flammability of the fuel as well as CO generation) and the
diesel ones are too expensive.

But what about that? Do you have a generator? Would it make sense to use one
to run an electric heater? That would keep the combustion out of the cabin
itself (although fumes can still get everywhere, and you have to be careful,
especially if there is no wind...).

OTOH, I know that on the few occasions when I've used an electric heater
while on shore power, the heat vanishes almost immediately as soon as I open
the companionway.

I don't think it is that bad, and it isn't any different for electric
heat than any other kind of heat. Although it may be that the space
doesn't get as hot with electric heat.

grandma Rosalie

I've heard of using a large piece of marble (such as fancy kitchen
counter tops are made of) to place on top of the stove to act as a
radiat heating device.


DSK wrote:

I 'pologize for shouting, but this is important.

Putting a flowerpot over a stove heater is a recipe for carbon monoxide.
If you want to die, go ahead and do this for heat in your boat.


"Gordon" wrote ...
A clay flower pot upside down over the stove burner.


R.W. Behan wrote:
Let me second Gordon's suggestion. We live in NW Washington state, where
the winters are not bitter cold, but bloody chilly. A flower pot--make SURE
it is clay, and not plastic--about 6-8" in diameter will do an amazing job
of heating the cabin, with radiant heat that seems to permeate all over the
place. It is a very effective, very cheap sort of makeshift heater, but
should do the trick for you.

The problem here is that there is no way of guessing what the airflow
into the burner is going to be, or the exhaust... most flowerpots have a
small hole in the bottom which becomes the exhaust. A flowerpot over the
burner creates a partial recirculation of air within a combustion
chamber, with the result that it will *always* produce a higher
percentage of carbon monoxide than an open flame, and there is a high
risk that it will put out dangerous levels of CO.

Remember too, CO builds up in the body, you can suffocate from CO
poisoning in the presence of fresh air.

In short, using a flowerpot over a stove burner to heat the cabin is a
BAD IDEA!

Regards
Doug King

Larry Bradley VE3CRX
Remove "removeme" from my e-mail address for direct mail
Ottawa, Canada

(use the e-mail address above to send directly to me)

If you are in a marina I think electric heat is the best way to go but it
takes a little while to bring a cold boat up to temperature. The safest
type of unit is the oil filled radiator style marketed by Delonghi and
Pelorus. I have a 1500W Pelorus in my boat and it adds about 10C to the
outside temperature. Cost $100 Cdn.
For heating while at anchor I think the best way to go is a bulkhead mounted
propane heater that is vented to the outside. These are easy to use and
clean. I have a Dickenson Newport diesel bulkhead heater and while it heats
very well it is a job to get it started and messy to clean out. I don't
think a forced air unit like an Espar or Webasto is all that necessary.
If you don't want the expense and trouble of installing a bulkhead unit I
guess you need something portable. Since you probably need to leave a port
open while running one of these units I question how much better they are
than the flower pot over the galley range. If you have several people
onboard I think you could use the flower pot method. With a couple of ports
open you are not likely to have a problem and if CO does build up you are
not all going to collapse at the same time. A common first symptom is a
splitting headache. Anyone develops a headache its time to open the
hatches. You could back this up with a CO detector, something you might be
planning to add in the future. They don't seem to run for very long on one
set of batteries though.
Just don't run the stove at night
One last thought. While running the engine to anchor, or enter the marina,
could you leave the engine access open to get some engine heat into the
boat?


"rosso" wrote in message
.. .
Hi!

I am planning a small sailing trip this winter and would like some advice
on heating.

We'll be sailing in the northern adriatic sea by christmas time. Water
temperature by that time are still above 10 deg. C. (up to 13, it seems).
The boat is about 35' and with no kind of heating/cooling system (well,
it has a fridge).

My main concern is to get the "dinette" warm (at least) for a couple of
hours a day, from when we stop sailing to when we go to sleep. Warm means
being able to eat without wearing heavy jackets and being able to dry wet
clothes.

Since this is a first-time experience i will not buy some expensive (but
surely VERY useful) system (like WEBASTO). It could even be the last time,
so I was trying to do it cheap.

I have some experience in dinghy winter-sailing (snow, ice, blue hands,
etc. etc.). But that's kind of different, because after a couple of hours
you can always have a warm shower and bed!

So any kind of other advice would be greatly appreciated!

thanks
-michele-

One last thought. While running the engine to anchor, or enter the marina,
could you leave the engine access open to get some engine heat into the
boat?

Consider to install a small automotive radiator in series with the
freshwater side of the heat exchanger loop ... plus a small fan