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Alternator
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Craig,
I recently asked a similar question elsewhere about this, from a marine electronics expert, and received this reply (I hope he won't mind me quoting him): ==== Will hours and hours of full-alternator charging output damage the alternator? I know an alternator rebuilder around here who says yes, but I have heard "experts" up and down the dock with every opinion from here to Sunday. REPLY The short answer is YES! If the litle alternator gets over heated then the wires will scorch and once you loose the insulation, they short out. The rectifier diodes will also suffer damage if subjected to too much heat. How much is too much? Maximum case temp should not exceed 180F Beyond that and you can expect permanent damage to something inside the alternator. ==== -- ==== Charles T. Low www.boatdocking.com ==== "Craig Stuart" wrote in message nk.net... I have a Balmar alternator and when it is charging the temp of the alternator is around 230 degrees. Is this normal ? -- Craig & Marcia Stuart |
On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 22:19:44 GMT, "Craig Stuart"
wrote: I have a Balmar alternator and when it is charging the temp of the alternator is around 230 degrees. Is this normal ? No. In fact as a rule of thumb: if you'd like electrical equipment to last for ever, ensure that you can (just about) rest your hand on it for at least a few seconds. Brian W |
I have been struggling with alternator overheating for 3 months now. I
installed a Balmar 612-110 (new model) on my system (420Ah battery bank) and am experiencing overheating. Within minutes, I reach 230F, which is the point at which my regulator reduces output by half (I have a temperature controller installed on the alternator). Balmar is trying to help and has sent me 2 other alternators (another 612 and one 700 series), but they all overheat. Neiter I nor Balmar understands what is going on (they claim they tested the alternators before they shipped and they ran at full output at around 180F). My engine compartment is pretty tight, especially in front of the alternator there is the engine hatch. May be there is not enough air flow. I checked everything else and it all looks correct. I finally mounted a blower with tubing bringing cool air from the outside right to the back of the alternator. With that the alternator does not go into small engine mode (as I am blowing air on the temperature sensor...) but the face (front side) of the alternator reaches a temperature of 244F. I wonder how long the alternator will last this way. Temperature was measured using a thermocouple attached to the alternator using thermal grease. Any experiences? Any suggestions welcome. Sam "Craig Stuart" wrote in message nk.net... I have a Balmar alternator and when it is charging the temp of the alternator is around 230 degrees. Is this normal ? -- Craig & Marcia Stuart |
Are the cooling fins on the pully turning in the correct direction to
cool the alternator? krj Sam wrote: I have been struggling with alternator overheating for 3 months now. I installed a Balmar 612-110 (new model) on my system (420Ah battery bank) and am experiencing overheating. Within minutes, I reach 230F, which is the point at which my regulator reduces output by half (I have a temperature controller installed on the alternator). Balmar is trying to help and has sent me 2 other alternators (another 612 and one 700 series), but they all overheat. Neiter I nor Balmar understands what is going on (they claim they tested the alternators before they shipped and they ran at full output at around 180F). My engine compartment is pretty tight, especially in front of the alternator there is the engine hatch. May be there is not enough air flow. I checked everything else and it all looks correct. I finally mounted a blower with tubing bringing cool air from the outside right to the back of the alternator. With that the alternator does not go into small engine mode (as I am blowing air on the temperature sensor...) but the face (front side) of the alternator reaches a temperature of 244F. I wonder how long the alternator will last this way. Temperature was measured using a thermocouple attached to the alternator using thermal grease. Any experiences? Any suggestions welcome. Sam "Craig Stuart" wrote in message nk.net... I have a Balmar alternator and when it is charging the temp of the alternator is around 230 degrees. Is this normal ? -- Craig & Marcia Stuart |
Sam:
There seems to be a lot of alternator overheating going around. See my reply to Craig and Marcia below. But you seem to already have done all of what I suggest below. But if your temperature probe is mounted to the case screws and the regulator is not cutting back on current, then you probably are operating within an acceptable temperature. FWIW however when I installed my muffin fan and duct, I sensed a noticable drop in case temperature with my highly calbrated index finger. And I don't think that the increased airflow was only cooling the temperature probe. I think it was cooling the whole alternator. David Craig and Marcia: 230 degrees is too hot. BTW, how are you measuring this temp? There are two solutions: Some regulators, Balmar's MaxCharge in particular, have a temperature probe option. With this, at least on the Balmar, it will reduce charging current to about one half when it senses temperatures that are too high. The lower charging current will reduce the case temperature rather quickly- in a few minutes, then it will return the alternator to its original charging rate. This will cycle on and off to keep the alternator temperature within bounds. I recall talking to the Balmar tech, who told me that it reduces charging current when the case temperature reaches 180 deg F. But this is only a stop gap fix. The real fix is to increase the cooling airflow to the alternator. The standard air flow is from the back of the alternator to the front. On my sailboat with a very tight engine enclosure, I added a small 12 volt muffin fan which ducts cool bilge air up to the back of the alternator. With the fan running, the temperature control circuit in the Balmar alternator never cuts back the current. Without it, the current is reduced at least half the time, thereby cutting your charging rate significantly. David "Craig Stuart" wrote in message nk.net... I have a Balmar alternator and when it is charging the temp of the alternator is around 230 degrees. Is this normal ? -- Craig & Marcia Stuart |
Yes they are! The pulley is turning clockwise.
Sam "Kelton Joyner" wrote in message . .. Are the cooling fins on the pully turning in the correct direction to cool the alternator? krj Sam wrote: I have been struggling with alternator overheating for 3 months now. I installed a Balmar 612-110 (new model) on my system (420Ah battery bank) and am experiencing overheating. Within minutes, I reach 230F, which is the point at which my regulator reduces output by half (I have a temperature controller installed on the alternator). Balmar is trying to help and has sent me 2 other alternators (another 612 and one 700 series), but they all overheat. Neiter I nor Balmar understands what is going on (they claim they tested the alternators before they shipped and they ran at full output at around 180F). My engine compartment is pretty tight, especially in front of the alternator there is the engine hatch. May be there is not enough air flow. I checked everything else and it all looks correct. I finally mounted a blower with tubing bringing cool air from the outside right to the back of the alternator. With that the alternator does not go into small engine mode (as I am blowing air on the temperature sensor...) but the face (front side) of the alternator reaches a temperature of 244F. I wonder how long the alternator will last this way. Temperature was measured using a thermocouple attached to the alternator using thermal grease. Any experiences? Any suggestions welcome. Sam "Craig Stuart" wrote in message nk.net... I have a Balmar alternator and when it is charging the temp of the alternator is around 230 degrees. Is this normal ? -- Craig & Marcia Stuart |
I've been following this thread a bit.
Good Lord! What all are you pulling that would make the alt. run wide open? the Alternator shouldn't be forced to pull any harder than ia max. of 75% of it's capacity. and by hooking a blower up to run cooler air to the alt. will only make the alt. pull that much harder . And what tickles me is that some of these companies will take an alt. that was designed for say, 60 amps, then they will hot-rod it up to about 175 or 220. by stuffing it full of wires and saying "this is what you need" (gulp!) and charging you extra big bucks for something that would requier special servicing. I would advise checking and seeing how much your actual amperage pull is (if you have a 100 amp draw, you need at least a135 a.rated "stock" unit) , THEN go get a stock OEM unit (prestolite/leece-neville, large frame Delco, Bosch etc.) and work with that. i think you'll get more satisfactory results, and less cost involved as well. Tim |
You need to learn more about the requirements of a marine
charging system. Alternator requirements have only little to do with loads directly supported by the alternator. High charge rates are used to recharge a large battery bank in a short period of time. Doug s/v Callista "Tim" wrote in message ups.com... I've been following this thread a bit. Good Lord! What all are you pulling that would make the alt. run wide open? the Alternator shouldn't be forced to pull any harder than ia max. of 75% of it's capacity. and by hooking a blower up to run cooler air to the alt. will only make the alt. pull that much harder . And what tickles me is that some of these companies will take an alt. that was designed for say, 60 amps, then they will hot-rod it up to about 175 or 220. by stuffing it full of wires and saying "this is what you need" (gulp!) and charging you extra big bucks for something that would requier special servicing. I would advise checking and seeing how much your actual amperage pull is (if you have a 100 amp draw, you need at least a135 a.rated "stock" unit) , THEN go get a stock OEM unit (prestolite/leece-neville, large frame Delco, Bosch etc.) and work with that. i think you'll get more satisfactory results, and less cost involved as well. Tim |
Doug Dotson wrote: You need to learn more about the requirements of a marine charging system. Alternator requirements have only little to do with loads directly supported by the alternator. High charge rates are used to recharge a large battery bank in a short period of time. Doug, I'm glad you reminded me of that. I've run a starter/alternator shop for the last 23 yrs. and maybe I missed something along the way. Whether on a "marine" application, a 73 toyota corona, or a greyhound bus, you have batteries, an alt/gen, a regulation system, and a ......load. inverters, split voltages, hi/lo amp settings, DUVAC, etc, are all in between. The products you utilize in this situation is the key... I suppose what I'm saying is, that you can buid a 350 chevrolet engine and say "This things got 450 horsepower, You don't need that Cummins to pull that 52 foot van trailer"! .. and in theory, that's true. But in practicality..its waning badly. |
Tim wrote:
Doug Dotson wrote: You need to learn more about the requirements of a marine charging system. Alternator requirements have only little to do with loads directly supported by the alternator. High charge rates are used to recharge a large battery bank in a short period of time. Doug, I'm glad you reminded me of that. I've run a starter/alternator shop for the last 23 yrs. and maybe I missed something along the way. Whether on a "marine" application, a 73 toyota corona, or a greyhound bus, you have batteries, an alt/gen, a regulation system, and a .....load. inverters, split voltages, hi/lo amp settings, DUVAC, etc, are all in between. The products you utilize in this situation is the key... I suppose what I'm saying is, that you can buid a 350 chevrolet engine and say "This things got 450 horsepower, You don't need that Cummins to pull that 52 foot van trailer"! .. and in theory, that's true. But in practicality..its waning badly. This might be where you are BOTH right... It has been a while since I looked, my memory is that the ratings on alternators is not standard. It seems there are derating curves by manufacturer/model - 100 amp rating is seldom (never?) continuous 100a. Ya gotta read the fine print - sometimes not even on the box with the alternator inside:(. My bet is that the alternator will work for a long time ONLY when ALL the conditions are met. That includes what you all have been talking about, plus more obscure factors like ambient temp. That's 2 cents. Skip |
Difference is starter battery vs house battery. A starter battery
is generally discharged a small amount and then recharged quickly. The alternator is then expected to power everything as long as the engine is running. A cruising boat is a different animal. All the boat systems run off the batteries for the most part. The engine is run once or twice a day to recharge the batteries (not to power the boat). Since a marine engine running without propelling the boat has alot of excess horses, a large alternator is used to charge the batteries as quickly as possible. Quite a different scenario than a Toyota or a Greyhound. Doug s/v CAllista "Tim" wrote in message ups.com... Doug Dotson wrote: You need to learn more about the requirements of a marine charging system. Alternator requirements have only little to do with loads directly supported by the alternator. High charge rates are used to recharge a large battery bank in a short period of time. Doug, I'm glad you reminded me of that. I've run a starter/alternator shop for the last 23 yrs. and maybe I missed something along the way. Whether on a "marine" application, a 73 toyota corona, or a greyhound bus, you have batteries, an alt/gen, a regulation system, and a .....load. inverters, split voltages, hi/lo amp settings, DUVAC, etc, are all in between. The products you utilize in this situation is the key... I suppose what I'm saying is, that you can buid a 350 chevrolet engine and say "This things got 450 horsepower, You don't need that Cummins to pull that 52 foot van trailer"! .. and in theory, that's true. But in practicality..its waning badly. |
That's correct. My 160 amp alternator is cold rated at 160. At operating
temperature (too hot to touch) it only puts out around 135 or so. The 160 figure is really a marketing figure. Doug s/v Callista "Skip" wrote in message om... Tim wrote: Doug Dotson wrote: You need to learn more about the requirements of a marine charging system. Alternator requirements have only little to do with loads directly supported by the alternator. High charge rates are used to recharge a large battery bank in a short period of time. Doug, I'm glad you reminded me of that. I've run a starter/alternator shop for the last 23 yrs. and maybe I missed something along the way. Whether on a "marine" application, a 73 toyota corona, or a greyhound bus, you have batteries, an alt/gen, a regulation system, and a .....load. inverters, split voltages, hi/lo amp settings, DUVAC, etc, are all in between. The products you utilize in this situation is the key... I suppose what I'm saying is, that you can buid a 350 chevrolet engine and say "This things got 450 horsepower, You don't need that Cummins to pull that 52 foot van trailer"! .. and in theory, that's true. But in practicality..its waning badly. This might be where you are BOTH right... It has been a while since I looked, my memory is that the ratings on alternators is not standard. It seems there are derating curves by manufacturer/model - 100 amp rating is seldom (never?) continuous 100a. Ya gotta read the fine print - sometimes not even on the box with the alternator inside:(. My bet is that the alternator will work for a long time ONLY when ALL the conditions are met. That includes what you all have been talking about, plus more obscure factors like ambient temp. That's 2 cents. Skip |
Doug Dotson wrote:
That's correct. My 160 amp alternator is cold rated at 160. At operating temperature (too hot to touch) it only puts out around 135 or so. The 160 figure is really a marketing figure. Another fine example of a tinker toy alternator. Most of the so called marine alternators are just that, tinker toy alternators. Most are cold rated, strictly a marketing gimmick. A true heavy duty alternator is hot rated, not cold. At least they were when I was involved in their design a long time ago. If you want to see some real alternators, look at Leece-Neville. A 200 amp alternator is truly a hot rated 200 amp alternator, not some toy that has to be derated if you read the fine print. Of course, it will cost more, there ain't no free lunch. Lew |
large alternator is used to
charge the batteries as quickly as possible. Quite a different scenario than a Toyota or a Greyhound. Maybe differrent than a toyota, but not a greyhound, or fire and emergency equipent. Battery isolaters and a/or a DUVAC system work very nicely. The isolator will seperate the cabin battery[s] from the engine battery[s] and you can use the same charging system for both and have them seperated at the same time. |
Since a marine engine running without propelling
the boat has alot of excess horses, a large alternator is used to charge the batteries as quickly as possible Sorry, i didn't meant o leave that out of my last post. you had a key thought. a LARGE alternator. And that is what I was meaning. something likewhat you find on an ambulance....something that is stock OEM. Not a small unit that is stuffed with wires. High performance and heavy duty can be the same thing, But I haven't really seen this in Balmar, Pentex, Alcon, Lestek, Powerline, and a some other companies that specialize in "hot-rodding" small units to make them a powerhouse dynamo. Tim |
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message ink.net... Doug Dotson wrote: That's correct. My 160 amp alternator is cold rated at 160. At operating temperature (too hot to touch) it only puts out around 135 or so. The 160 figure is really a marketing figure. Another fine example of a tinker toy alternator. Most of the so called marine alternators are just that, tinker toy alternators. Define a tinker toy alternator? Most are cold rated, strictly a marketing gimmick. Most are rated bath cold and hot. A true heavy duty alternator is hot rated, not cold. As are most marine alternators. Both figures are useful. At least they were when I was involved in their design a long time ago. Welcome to the 21st century. If you want to see some real alternators, look at Leece-Neville. Do they make one suitable for marine applications? If so, then I will take a look at them. A 200 amp alternator is truly a hot rated 200 amp alternator, not some toy that has to be derated if you read the fine print. Doesn;t matter as long as on understands what is going on. Of course, it will cost more, there ain't no free lunch. Cost doesn;t amtter when it is a boat. Lew |
"BSCHNAUTZ" wrote in message ... Since a marine engine running without propelling the boat has alot of excess horses, a large alternator is used to charge the batteries as quickly as possible Sorry, i didn't meant o leave that out of my last post. you had a key thought. a LARGE alternator. And that is what I was meaning. something likewhat you find on an ambulance....something that is stock OEM. Not a small unit that is stuffed with wires. Small units stuffed with wires have served me well for years. High performance and heavy duty can be the same thing, But I haven't really seen this in Balmar, Pentex, Alcon, Lestek, Powerline, and a some other companies that specialize in "hot-rodding" small units to make them a powerhouse dynamo. Tim |
Small units stuffed with wires have served me well for years.
maybe they have Doug, but you won't find one of those "Small units stuffed with wires" on anything that requires major demands. Now, i do understand that your demand isn't the same as a typical American LeFrance pumper truck, or Double Eagle conversion bus. |
Tim wrote:
Small units stuffed with wires have served me well for years. maybe they have Doug, but you won't find one of those "Small units stuffed with wires" on anything that requires major demands. Now, i do understand that your demand isn't the same as a typical American LeFrance pumper truck, or Double Eagle conversion bus. Being a boater and not a trucker, I don't know what the load is for the units you're talking about. My Balmar puts out 95-100 Amps for several hours a day while traveling. The previous one did 84 Amps, the one before that had smaller batteries so it only ran at about 60 Amps. (All are still in service AFAIK.) I've considered putting in "large frame" alternators, but I don't think that would fit in the small area I have. |
The output of the alternator is but one factor or source for a charging current. We have been cruising for 4 years and can stay in an anchorage for weeks without starting the main engine (no gen set) We have 4 x 80W solar panels, AirMarine wind generator and when we are under sail a tow along generator (.75A/Knot) The fridge is 12V eutectic with enough insulation around the box for prolonged tropical cruising. Even on max demand the alternator never exceeds 75% of max output for greater than 10 mins. I guess the lesson we learned was have enough alternative energy sources to cover most of your day to day needs. Lyn & Tony S/V Ambrosia |
My impression was that this discussion had to do with boats. As I
said before, the requirements are different so that comparisons are not really useful. Doug s/v Callista "Tim" wrote in message ps.com... Small units stuffed with wires have served me well for years. maybe they have Doug, but you won't find one of those "Small units stuffed with wires" on anything that requires major demands. Now, i do understand that your demand isn't the same as a typical American LeFrance pumper truck, or Double Eagle conversion bus. |
The large frame units definitely don;t have to work as hard but as you
say, monting one can be problematic. I don't have the room either. I would prefer the dual belt as it is easier on the bearings. Doug s/v Callista "Jeff Morris" wrote in message ... Tim wrote: Small units stuffed with wires have served me well for years. maybe they have Doug, but you won't find one of those "Small units stuffed with wires" on anything that requires major demands. Now, i do understand that your demand isn't the same as a typical American LeFrance pumper truck, or Double Eagle conversion bus. Being a boater and not a trucker, I don't know what the load is for the units you're talking about. My Balmar puts out 95-100 Amps for several hours a day while traveling. The previous one did 84 Amps, the one before that had smaller batteries so it only ran at about 60 Amps. (All are still in service AFAIK.) I've considered putting in "large frame" alternators, but I don't think that would fit in the small area I have. |
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Being a boater and not a trucker, I don't know what the load is for the
units you're talking about. My Balmar puts out 95-100 Amps for several hours a day while traveling. The previous one did 84 Amps, the one before that had smaller batteries so it only ran at about 60 Amps. (All are still in service AFAIK.) Very good Jeff. The origional question was about the alternator running too hot and questioning the service life. I was stating that if the current load far exceeds the units spec's then a person should investigate getting a unit that is designed for that load capacity. i was using the "truck/ bus & rescue equipment" for examples, that these things can have very heavy amp draws, and you don't find small "hot-rodded" units on them. Tim |
Skip,
The yacht is a Swedish design that had 25mm of polystyrene insulation. No match for Aust or the tropics. New fridge/freezeer has a min 75mm polyurethane all round. The fridge is 70l and the freezer 20l. Average daily power consumption (once at operating temp) is 30 - 35 AHours. The hull is white which cuts down power consumption considerably. If you need more details on the fridge setup email me on yachtambrosia at the hotmail address Lyn & Tony S/V Ambrosia |
Tim wrote:
The origional question was about the alternator running too hot and questioning the service life. That thread was 3 months ago! You must be a very slow typist! I was stating that if the current load far exceeds the units spec's then a person should investigate getting a unit that is designed for that load capacity. The particular alternator Sam has is identical to what I'm running and the battery bank is the same size. He doesn't mention the regulator setting, but mine runs at 90% rating output several hours a day, and there's no reason to suspect his would put out more for more than a few minutes. With proper ventilation, there shouldn't be a problem. i was using the "truck/ bus & rescue equipment" for examples, that these things can have very heavy amp draws, and you don't find small "hot-rodded" units on them. They don't have 18 horse engines, either. I'm curious - what are the heavy loads on these vehicles, and how much do they draw? Not doubting, just curious. Do refrigerator trucks run off the alternator, or do they have engine driven compressors? |
Jeff Morris wrote:
I'm curious - what are the heavy loads on these vehicles, and how much do they draw? Not doubting, just curious. A typical city transit bus can easily have a 200 amp load. Summertime air conditioning, wintertime heating, not to mention all the other parasitic loads such as marker lights, fans, etc. Do refrigerator trucks run off the alternator, or do they have engine driven compressors? Every reefer I have ever seen has it's own stand alone system. Lew |
In article . net,
Lew Hodgett wrote: A typical city transit bus can easily have a 200 amp load. Summertime air conditioning, wintertime heating, not to mention all the other parasitic loads such as marker lights, fans, etc. "wintertime heating" ?????? Come on give us all a break. Why in the world would a Design Engineer spec an Low Vlotage Electric Heating Unit for a Bus, when they are throughing away, Orders of Magnitude, more energy out the cooling system, of the engine that is powering the Bus? This is beyond Stupid, and very near Moooorrrroooooonic......... Me |
Me wrote:
"wintertime heating" ?????? Come on give us all a break. Why in the world would a Design Engineer spec an Low Vlotage Electric Heating Unit for a Bus, when they are throughing away, Orders of Magnitude, more energy out the cooling system, of the engine that is powering the Bus? This is beyond Stupid, and very near Moooorrrroooooonic......... They wouldn't; however, pumps and fans add up. SFWIW, there are at least a couple of manufacturers who provide stand alone oil fired heating systems for trucks and buses. You can take your meds and go back to sleep now. Lew |
The origional question was about the alternator running too hot and
questioning the service life. That thread was 3 months ago! You must be a very slow typist! On an "alternator" search it showed up. I added to it. alot of people read these threads because they want info. so I added to it. I suppose we can go all the way back to threads in 1997 or earlier if you wish. |
In article . net,
Lew Hodgett wrote: They wouldn't; however, pumps and fans add up. SFWIW, there are at least a couple of manufacturers who provide stand alone oil fired heating systems for trucks and buses. You can take your meds and go back to sleep now. Lew and why would the design engineer spec an electric pump for the job of moving cooling fluid around when there is this really BIG engine with a pile of HP sitting right there, that already has a nice pump on the front? Just how many low voltage fans does it take to spread the engine heat around a bus, and just how many AMPS do they draw? Not anywhere near 200 AMPS.....like MAYBE 20 AMPS if they really had a LOT of fans, amd wanted to COOK the passengers. Me maybe you should cut down on your meds, and get a CLUE.... |
and why would the design engineer spec an electric pump for the job of
moving cooling fluid around when there is this really BIG engine with a pile of HP sitting right there, that already has a nice pump on the front? Just how many low voltage fans does it take to spread the engine heat around a bus, and just how many AMPS do they draw? Not anywhere near 200 AMPS.....like MAYBE 20 AMPS if they really had a LOT of fans, amd wanted to COOK the passengers. Me maybe you should cut down on your meds, and get a CLUE.... Plenty of clue when you realize that a bus isn't a Chevy Corsica. most Silver Eagle bus's have at least 4, 5 HP dc motors that push cabin air to all points of the bus. these draw about 25a. a piece. Not much math to do there. also the engine does produce the heating water. but there are also at least 2 booster pumps to aid circulation to the heater coils these pull about 10-12 a. each. Then comes all the courtesy lights (over 100 at about .5 a. ea.) which individually don't draw much, but there is strength in numbers. not counting the drive, tail lights etc Air conditioning? i don't know how much the electric cluth on the compressor can draw but I think it's about 20-25a, as well. a typical bus used a Delco 50-dn 12v-280 a. alternator (engine oil cooled) for these reasons. and they put out about as much at idle as they do WFO. |
a typical bus used a Delco 50-dn 12v-280 a. alternator (engine oil
cooled) for these reasons. and they put out about as much at idle as they do WFO. OOPS! Delco-DN 24v-280 A. |
a typical bus used a Delco 50-dn 12v-280 a. alternator (engine oil
cooled) for these reasons. and they put out about as much at idle as they do WFO. OOPS! Delco-50DN 24v-280 A. |
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