A really odd refrigeration challange
 

On our recent BVI cruise I started thinking about cockpit drink coolers.
The beneteau 505 has a very poorly insulated cooler in the cockpit
table that is a total waste of ice. RUTU, being derived from a modern
high performance design, has a very wide fairly shallow cockpit. It
will need foot rests to keep braced in the seats on a heel. I am
thinking about building a perminent heavily insulated box down the
center. It could also be used as a seat at anchor when the table is
folded up and the cushion would serve as additional insulation.

Now the question is how to keep it cold. I am thinking that a small
evaporator type system would work. Drinks cool fastest in water so
stocking originally with drinks and ice would provide the water. Once
the ice melts the evaporator would maintain the temperature and the
water would serve as a heat sink.

What I am worried about is that the aluminum evaporator would corrode
rather quickly constantly submerged in water. I am wondering if several
loops of copper tube might make a better evaporator.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

A really odd refrigeration challange
 

Glenn Ashmore wrote:
On our recent BVI cruise I started thinking about cockpit drink coolers.
The beneteau 505 has a very poorly insulated cooler in the cockpit
table that is a total waste of ice. RUTU, being derived from a modern
high performance design, has a very wide fairly shallow cockpit. It
will need foot rests to keep braced in the seats on a heel. I am
thinking about building a perminent heavily insulated box down the
center. It could also be used as a seat at anchor when the table is
folded up and the cushion would serve as additional insulation.

Now the question is how to keep it cold. I am thinking that a small
evaporator type system would work. Drinks cool fastest in water so
stocking originally with drinks and ice would provide the water. Once
the ice melts the evaporator would maintain the temperature and the
water would serve as a heat sink.

What I am worried about is that the aluminum evaporator would corrode
rather quickly constantly submerged in water. I am wondering if several
loops of copper tube might make a better evaporator.

Stainless steel might work better. Many restaurants use a cooler to
pre-cool the carbonated water and the syrup for fountain pop. This uses
a bath of water as a "cold bank" and a set of coils for the product and
another set to keep everything cool. You could probably find a setup
like this in a used restaurant equipment store cheaply. They last forever.
--

If you don't go there, you will never know what is there.

I ain't looking for trouble,.....but you can find it here.

A really odd refrigeration challange
 

What would cause the Al to corrode? You have relatively pure fresh
water. Trying to think if I've seen any examples of Al in fresh water
part time, but nothing comes to mind.

Hmm. On second thought. Al siding and gutters seems to survive pretty
well, but that mostly has paint on it. Al is widely used as lightweight
flashing and although I would personally use something else, there have
been no code restrictions or other gross problems with it as far as I
know. That usually means that the product can give expected service
provided it's installed well, and that would means that 26gauge Al
provides at least 5 years of exterior service, probably much more since
roofing is usually guarranteed for 20 years or more.

Rufus


Glenn Ashmore wrote:
On our recent BVI cruise I started thinking about cockpit drink coolers.
The beneteau 505 has a very poorly insulated cooler in the cockpit
table that is a total waste of ice. RUTU, being derived from a modern
high performance design, has a very wide fairly shallow cockpit. It
will need foot rests to keep braced in the seats on a heel. I am
thinking about building a perminent heavily insulated box down the
center. It could also be used as a seat at anchor when the table is
folded up and the cushion would serve as additional insulation.

Now the question is how to keep it cold. I am thinking that a small
evaporator type system would work. Drinks cool fastest in water so
stocking originally with drinks and ice would provide the water. Once
the ice melts the evaporator would maintain the temperature and the
water would serve as a heat sink.

What I am worried about is that the aluminum evaporator would corrode
rather quickly constantly submerged in water. I am wondering if several
loops of copper tube might make a better evaporator.

A really odd refrigeration challange
 

A totally "off the wall" idea that has some basis in actual operation.

I forget but seem to think that you'll have a pretty good refrigeration
system on board.

If so, why not have a closed loop heat-exchange system, charged with
food grade glycol (my memory fails me, I can't recall if that is
Ethylene or Propylene Glycol) /water mixture, circulated by a small
pump, and running between your inside freezer section and this cockpit
mounted idea. Circulation rate does not need to be very great, just
sufficient to keep the liquid moving.

If you used heavy wall poly tubing between the two cold spaces you
wouldn't lose toooo much effect along the way. Use copper inside the
two boxes. Having the cockpit box initially filled with ice will greatly
lessen the induced load on the freezer.

We used to use a similar system on some fishing trawlers in NZ many
years ago. Worked well to keep a water slurry cold for long periods.

Brian Cleverly


Glenn Ashmore wrote:

On our recent BVI cruise I started thinking about cockpit drink coolers.
The beneteau 505 has a very poorly insulated cooler in the cockpit
table that is a total waste of ice. RUTU, being derived from a modern
high performance design, has a very wide fairly shallow cockpit. It
will need foot rests to keep braced in the seats on a heel. I am
thinking about building a perminent heavily insulated box down the
center. It could also be used as a seat at anchor when the table is
folded up and the cushion would serve as additional insulation.

Now the question is how to keep it cold. I am thinking that a small
evaporator type system would work. Drinks cool fastest in water so
stocking originally with drinks and ice would provide the water. Once
the ice melts the evaporator would maintain the temperature and the
water would serve as a heat sink.

What I am worried about is that the aluminum evaporator would corrode
rather quickly constantly submerged in water. I am wondering if several
loops of copper tube might make a better evaporator.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Glen, Check this out http://www.marineair.com/marineair/pdfs/evap.pdf

From the author of four books on boat refrigeration http://www.kollmann-marine.com


Glenn Ashmore wrote in message news:07aTc.27910$Jo1.1742@lakeread01...
On our recent BVI cruise I started thinking about cockpit drink coolers.
The beneteau 505 has a very poorly insulated cooler in the cockpit
table that is a total waste of ice. RUTU, being derived from a modern
high performance design, has a very wide fairly shallow cockpit. It
will need foot rests to keep braced in the seats on a heel. I am
thinking about building a perminent heavily insulated box down the
center. It could also be used as a seat at anchor when the table is
folded up and the cushion would serve as additional insulation.

Now the question is how to keep it cold. I am thinking that a small
evaporator type system would work. Drinks cool fastest in water so
stocking originally with drinks and ice would provide the water. Once
the ice melts the evaporator would maintain the temperature and the
water would serve as a heat sink.

What I am worried about is that the aluminum evaporator would corrode
rather quickly constantly submerged in water. I am wondering if several
loops of copper tube might make a better evaporator.

If cooling the drinks fast is your goal thaen this approach will work.
But once the ice has melted, then the refrigeration will be working
much harder than usual to keep both the drinks and the large volume
of water cold. Better to turn on the fridge, add the drinks and ice
but let the water drain off as it melts.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:07aTc.27910$Jo1.1742@lakeread01...
On our recent BVI cruise I started thinking about cockpit drink coolers.
The beneteau 505 has a very poorly insulated cooler in the cockpit
table that is a total waste of ice. RUTU, being derived from a modern
high performance design, has a very wide fairly shallow cockpit. It
will need foot rests to keep braced in the seats on a heel. I am
thinking about building a perminent heavily insulated box down the
center. It could also be used as a seat at anchor when the table is
folded up and the cushion would serve as additional insulation.

Now the question is how to keep it cold. I am thinking that a small
evaporator type system would work. Drinks cool fastest in water so
stocking originally with drinks and ice would provide the water. Once
the ice melts the evaporator would maintain the temperature and the
water would serve as a heat sink.

What I am worried about is that the aluminum evaporator would corrode
rather quickly constantly submerged in water. I am wondering if several
loops of copper tube might make a better evaporator.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Richard Kollmann wrote:
Glen, Check this out http://www.marineair.com/marineair/pdfs/evap.pdf

From the author of four books on boat refrigeration http://www.kollmann-marine.com

Hey, Hey! I knew you would come up with something. Looking at the
specs for those plates though made me go back and figure the BTU loads.
Drink coolers are a real challange. Not only do they gain heat at the
same rate or faster than a frige but they are constantly opened and
closed and being loaded daily with more warm drinks. Also in the
cockpit they get a lot of radiation load. OTOH, being full of cold
water it will not gain as much heat every time it is opened.

Roughly figuring a 2.1 cu.ft. box (14Wx12Hx22L or about 10 sq ft of
surface) with 3" of foam (R=16) will gain about 600 BTU/day with a 40F
delta-T. Half again that at least for frequent openining and radiation
load so say a 900-1,000 BTU/day base. A case of beer weighs about 20
lbs and to get it from 75F to 42F will require an additional 660 BTUs.
Figuring a case and a half of drinks a day for a crew of 6 makes about
1,000 BTUs. All totaled that will be about 2,000 BTU/day or close to 80
BTU/Hr. If I stock it each evening the load should stay pretty steady
between 70 and 90 BTU/Hr. To maintain the box at about 40F the coil will
have to be running about 26F. That would make a BD35 at 2,500 RPM run
about 15-20 minutes an hour on average. That would be OK for the
compressor but I would be pushing the evaporator at a rate of about 270
BTU/Hr. I don't see how I can do that with those plates.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

I used to think that but the Coleman cooler people did a lot of research
on this controversy. The new Xtreme coole I bought for the trip came
with a little booklet about how to stock a cooler. They are saying that
as long as there is a little ice remaining before restocking to leave
the water in the box. The other thing is that water does not escape
when the lid is opened the way cold air will so the total heat gain will
be less.

BTW, the new Coleman Ultra Xtreme coolers do work. We used about 2/3rds
the ice this year over 10 days in the BVI as we did last year in a week.
As to whether they keep ice for 7 days as advertised, maybe in
Minnesota but not in the Virgin Islands. :-)

Doug Dotson wrote:

If cooling the drinks fast is your goal thaen this approach will work.
But once the ice has melted, then the refrigeration will be working
much harder than usual to keep both the drinks and the large volume
of water cold. Better to turn on the fridge, add the drinks and ice
but let the water drain off as it melts.

Doug
s/v Callista

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

How about a compressor cooler like the ones Waeco sells? They take a bit of
power (30 Ah ?) but can be turned off and they will be a handy backup. They can
even be switched to freezer mode and used in a car.


http://www.waecoadlerbarbour.com/


"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:K_pTc.28301$Jo1.18335@lakeread01...


Richard Kollmann wrote:
Glen, Check this out http://www.marineair.com/marineair/pdfs/evap.pdf

From the author of four books on boat refrigeration
http://www.kollmann-marine.com

Hey, Hey! I knew you would come up with something. Looking at the
specs for those plates though made me go back and figure the BTU loads.
Drink coolers are a real challange. Not only do they gain heat at the
same rate or faster than a frige but they are constantly opened and
closed and being loaded daily with more warm drinks. Also in the
cockpit they get a lot of radiation load. OTOH, being full of cold
water it will not gain as much heat every time it is opened.

Roughly figuring a 2.1 cu.ft. box (14Wx12Hx22L or about 10 sq ft of
surface) with 3" of foam (R=16) will gain about 600 BTU/day with a 40F
delta-T. Half again that at least for frequent openining and radiation
load so say a 900-1,000 BTU/day base. A case of beer weighs about 20
lbs and to get it from 75F to 42F will require an additional 660 BTUs.
Figuring a case and a half of drinks a day for a crew of 6 makes about
1,000 BTUs. All totaled that will be about 2,000 BTU/day or close to 80
BTU/Hr. If I stock it each evening the load should stay pretty steady
between 70 and 90 BTU/Hr. To maintain the box at about 40F the coil will
have to be running about 26F. That would make a BD35 at 2,500 RPM run
about 15-20 minutes an hour on average. That would be OK for the
compressor but I would be pushing the evaporator at a rate of about 270
BTU/Hr. I don't see how I can do that with those plates.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Glenn,

You say "It will need foot rests to keep braced in the seats on a heel."
Won't melt-water in your cooler spill out on when your boat heels?

Alex

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:07aTc.27910$Jo1.1742@lakeread01...
On our recent BVI cruise I started thinking about cockpit drink coolers.
The beneteau 505 has a very poorly insulated cooler in the cockpit
table that is a total waste of ice. RUTU, being derived from a modern
high performance design, has a very wide fairly shallow cockpit. It
will need foot rests to keep braced in the seats on a heel. I am
thinking about building a perminent heavily insulated box down the
center. It could also be used as a seat at anchor when the table is
folded up and the cushion would serve as additional insulation.

Now the question is how to keep it cold. I am thinking that a small
evaporator type system would work. Drinks cool fastest in water so
stocking originally with drinks and ice would provide the water. Once
the ice melts the evaporator would maintain the temperature and the
water would serve as a heat sink.

What I am worried about is that the aluminum evaporator would corrode
rather quickly constantly submerged in water. I am wondering if several
loops of copper tube might make a better evaporator.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

I guess that depends upon the lid configuration and how often it
is opened. I have a Coleman Extreme and find the ice lasts alot
longer if you drain off the excess water. Perhaps leaving a little in bottom
is a good idea. I tend to rely on the laws of physics rather than
ad hype from vendors.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:ZvqTc.28303$Jo1.5448@lakeread01...
I used to think that but the Coleman cooler people did a lot of research
on this controversy. The new Xtreme coole I bought for the trip came
with a little booklet about how to stock a cooler. They are saying that
as long as there is a little ice remaining before restocking to leave
the water in the box. The other thing is that water does not escape
when the lid is opened the way cold air will so the total heat gain will
be less.

BTW, the new Coleman Ultra Xtreme coolers do work. We used about 2/3rds
the ice this year over 10 days in the BVI as we did last year in a week.
As to whether they keep ice for 7 days as advertised, maybe in
Minnesota but not in the Virgin Islands. :-)

Doug Dotson wrote:

If cooling the drinks fast is your goal thaen this approach will work.
But once the ice has melted, then the refrigeration will be working
much harder than usual to keep both the drinks and the large volume
of water cold. Better to turn on the fridge, add the drinks and ice
but let the water drain off as it melts.

Doug
s/v Callista

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

I would not keep it completely full of melt and by making it relatively
narrow fore and aft the level can still be fairly high without spilling.

auerbach wrote:

Glenn,

You say "It will need foot rests to keep braced in the seats on a heel."
Won't melt-water in your cooler spill out on when your boat heels?

Alex

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Doug Dotson wrote:

I guess that depends upon the lid configuration and how often it
is opened. I have a Coleman Extreme and find the ice lasts alot
longer if you drain off the excess water. Perhaps leaving a little in bottom
is a good idea. I tend to rely on the laws of physics rather than
ad hype from vendors.

Doug
s/v Callista

Coleman isn't the only source of that information. Hormel provides a
camping tips booklet that says the same thing as did an article last
year in Trailer Sailor. There is definitely some good physics behind
the principle.

As long as the water is close to the target temperature of the box,
there are several advantages over a dry box, especially when the box is
refrigerated.

Basically the heat enters the box by adding warm drinks, allowing warm
air in when the box is opened or through the outer surfaces. There is
not much you can do about adding warm drinks except cut back on the beer
consumption but by reducing the amount of warm air that can get in heat
gained due to opening can be minimized.

The speed heat comes through the sides is directly related to the
difference between the inside surface of the box and the outside. It
does not matter if the box is full of water or air. As long as the
difference in temperature is the same. The evaporator coils are close
to the inside surface and will operate at a temperature about 10-15º
below the target temperature of the box. Water transfers the heat from
warm drinks to the coils faster than air so the temperature is more even
all over the box. If there is no water move the heat quickly the inside
surfaces next to the coils will get much colder which increases the rate
that the heat will come through the sides.

The compressor WILL run longer with the box full of water to cool the
box the same amount but it will run less often once it reaches the
target temperature. Net result is an overall energy savings.

Here is a pretty good explination using ice only but the effects
described are magnified with a refrigerated box:
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives...3228.Ph.r.html

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Glenn, here's a solution complicated enough to appeal to you ;-):

Let the cold box drain into another insulated tank/box whose function is to
pre-chill warm beers. You could get every last BTU out of that ice before it's
drained.
Don't some air heat exchangers work this way?

Interesting. I'll have to read up on this some more. I suppose the same
principle won't work well in the freezer box :)

Doug
s/v Callista

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:JVvTc.28578$Jo1.27533@lakeread01...


Doug Dotson wrote:

I guess that depends upon the lid configuration and how often it
is opened. I have a Coleman Extreme and find the ice lasts alot
longer if you drain off the excess water. Perhaps leaving a little in
bottom
is a good idea. I tend to rely on the laws of physics rather than
ad hype from vendors.

Doug
s/v Callista

Coleman isn't the only source of that information. Hormel provides a
camping tips booklet that says the same thing as did an article last
year in Trailer Sailor. There is definitely some good physics behind
the principle.

As long as the water is close to the target temperature of the box,
there are several advantages over a dry box, especially when the box is
refrigerated.

Basically the heat enters the box by adding warm drinks, allowing warm
air in when the box is opened or through the outer surfaces. There is
not much you can do about adding warm drinks except cut back on the beer
consumption but by reducing the amount of warm air that can get in heat
gained due to opening can be minimized.

The speed heat comes through the sides is directly related to the
difference between the inside surface of the box and the outside. It
does not matter if the box is full of water or air. As long as the
difference in temperature is the same. The evaporator coils are close
to the inside surface and will operate at a temperature about 10-15º
below the target temperature of the box. Water transfers the heat from
warm drinks to the coils faster than air so the temperature is more even
all over the box. If there is no water move the heat quickly the inside
surfaces next to the coils will get much colder which increases the rate
that the heat will come through the sides.

The compressor WILL run longer with the box full of water to cool the
box the same amount but it will run less often once it reaches the
target temperature. Net result is an overall energy savings.

Here is a pretty good explination using ice only but the effects
described are magnified with a refrigerated box:
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives...3228.Ph.r.html

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Jim,

Really like that solution for ice boxes. Have always hated to discard ice
cold water, and prechilling the beer will certainly help out ice life.
All those who stayed awake during high-school physics will recognize that
adding 4 cans of beer to an ice box will result in the melting of a beer can
sized block of ice - even without any heat transmission through the walls or
floor of the box. Cool your beer first, and you might be able to put a dozen
in for the same ice use. Thats energy conservation where it counts!

surfnturf

"Jim Conlin" wrote in message
...
Glenn, here's a solution complicated enough to appeal to you ;-):

Let the cold box drain into another insulated tank/box whose function is
to
pre-chill warm beers. You could get every last BTU out of that ice before
it's
drained.
Don't some air heat exchangers work this way?

Another option would be the kiss aproach.
Maybe build a nice combing that is sized to contain an ice chest. You can
buy a big cheap one like the 120 igloo that sells at sam's for under $40 or
you could go for a really nice expensive ice chest, like the Icey-Tek,
www.icey-tek.com . Friends tell me these are great.( I like the big and
cheap). If you really hate using ice, you could put a 12V power plug in the
combing and use a thermoelectric cooler, Igoo , Coleman ect .


--
Ron White
Boat building web address is
www.concentric.net/~knotreel

Glen, there are three proven way to build the system you are looking
for:

1. Install a full length stainless steel holding plate in an insulated
box, it can be used as a dry box or a wet box. See picture on front
page of my web site, this box's holding plate is connected to a
Danfoss BD2.5 compressor. The purpose of the plate in this cooler is
to act as a flywheel affect of energy when warm product is put in the
box.
2. The same insulated box can be cooled by a plain copper tube coil
attached to interior wall. When I did fish hold box designs I used
stainless tubing with tubing above and below the water.
3. Either one of the above concepts can be used with an existing large
refrigeration system by splitting the refrigerant flow.

I have system #1 in one of my boats and system #3 in the other.

Glen here is a concept using a Danfoss BD50 air cooled condensing
unit, and 50 ft. of ¼ inch tubing as an evaporator coil, A receiver
and expansion valve instead of a capillary tube.

This combination in a drink cooler with a 30 degree evaporator
temperature might deliver 790 btu. Per hour. ( Danfoss ASHRAE
Capacity chart with compressor running at 3500 rpm ). I would also
install a manual speed selector switch to adjust compressor speed for
current box demand.

From the author of books on boat refrigeration
http://www.kollmann-marine.com


Glenn Ashmore wrote in message news:07aTc.27910$Jo1.1742@lakeread01...
On our recent BVI cruise I started thinking about cockpit drink coolers.
The beneteau 505 has a very poorly insulated cooler in the cockpit
table that is a total waste of ice. RUTU, being derived from a modern
high performance design, has a very wide fairly shallow cockpit. It
will need foot rests to keep braced in the seats on a heel. I am
thinking about building a perminent heavily insulated box down the
center. It could also be used as a seat at anchor when the table is
folded up and the cushion would serve as additional insulation.

Now the question is how to keep it cold. I am thinking that a small
evaporator type system would work. Drinks cool fastest in water so
stocking originally with drinks and ice would provide the water. Once
the ice melts the evaporator would maintain the temperature and the
water would serve as a heat sink.

What I am worried about is that the aluminum evaporator would corrode
rather quickly constantly submerged in water. I am wondering if several
loops of copper tube might make a better evaporator.

#2 is the idea I am leaning towards. I have room to mount an air cooled
BD50 directly below the box with plenty of ventilation.

Couple of things still have me stalled. I would like to use .192" ID
stainless tube which should stand up better to bumps with cans and
corrosion but the thermal conductivity is a lot lower than copper. I
could compensate by going to .335" ID but that might slow down the
refrigerant to much to push the oil through. Think I will stick with
..192" and adjust the expansion valve and compressor speed.

The other thing is probably that I am not reading the charts right but I
can't figure out which orifice to use in the Danfoss expansion valve.
They all look to large for the BD50.

BTW, have you revised the DIY book? I have about worn my copy and the
Calder book out. :-)

Richard Kollmann wrote:
Glen, there are three proven way to build the system you are looking
for:

1. Install a full length stainless steel holding plate in an insulated
box, it can be used as a dry box or a wet box. See picture on front
page of my web site, this box's holding plate is connected to a
Danfoss BD2.5 compressor. The purpose of the plate in this cooler is
to act as a flywheel affect of energy when warm product is put in the
box.
2. The same insulated box can be cooled by a plain copper tube coil
attached to interior wall. When I did fish hold box designs I used
stainless tubing with tubing above and below the water.
3. Either one of the above concepts can be used with an existing large
refrigeration system by splitting the refrigerant flow.

I have system #1 in one of my boats and system #3 in the other.

Glen here is a concept using a Danfoss BD50 air cooled condensing
unit, and 50 ft. of ¼ inch tubing as an evaporator coil, A receiver
and expansion valve instead of a capillary tube.

This combination in a drink cooler with a 30 degree evaporator
temperature might deliver 790 btu. Per hour. ( Danfoss ASHRAE
Capacity chart with compressor running at 3500 rpm ). I would also
install a manual speed selector switch to adjust compressor speed for
current box demand.

From the author of books on boat refrigeration
http://www.kollmann-marine.com

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Refrigeration tubing is measured in OD and ¼ OD is .192 in. ID. Many
home built systems make the mistake of using tubing that is too large
in their systems. All refrigeration compressors require a return
suction gas temperature of from 60 to 90 degrees F. for compressor
cooling. Compressors also rely on a reasonable gas velocity through
the system to return the oil. You could get by with 5/16 OD tubing,
but I would not run the system set to a very low temperatures.

You are correct about tube damage in the box, there must be some type
of a guard to protect it.
I ounce did a system for a crab fisherman in Alaska and he put a live
fish inside that punch a hole in the refrigerant tubing.

When you want variable capacity with the BD50 in the case of your
purposed system I would use a OX Danfoss orifice. Yes, I know the OX
is a 1500 btu orifice but as soon as it sees the cool return gas it
will adjust down.

You should have my latest Do It Yourself Book revised in 2000. And the
book you just ordered 12/24 volt Refrigeration Manual covers changes
in DC refrigeration up to 2004. I believed that revising the original
book every five years was good enough. Today with the changes in the
industry and the high cost of service I felt I should find another way
to communicate more often than five years. Book revisions, service
bulletins and typical repairs would cost too much so I elected to use
my web site as a way that book owners and others can keep up to date
with what is new in boat refrigeration. Glen if you don't find all
you need in the design section of the new book please use the new
refrigeration forum on my web site to ask your questions.
http://www.kollmann-marine.com.





Glenn Ashmore wrote in message news:vW5Uc.29891$Jo1.23863@lakeread01...
#2 is the idea I am leaning towards. I have room to mount an air cooled
BD50 directly below the box with plenty of ventilation.

Couple of things still have me stalled. I would like to use .192" ID
stainless tube which should stand up better to bumps with cans and
corrosion but the thermal conductivity is a lot lower than copper. I
could compensate by going to .335" ID but that might slow down the
refrigerant to much to push the oil through. Think I will stick with
.192" and adjust the expansion valve and compressor speed.

The other thing is probably that I am not reading the charts right but I
can't figure out which orifice to use in the Danfoss expansion valve.
They all look to large for the BD50.

BTW, have you revised the DIY book? I have about worn my copy and the
Calder book out. :-)

Richard Kollmann wrote:
Glen, there are three proven way to build the system you are looking
for:

1. Install a full length stainless steel holding plate in an insulated
box, it can be used as a dry box or a wet box. See picture on front
page of my web site, this box's holding plate is connected to a
Danfoss BD2.5 compressor. The purpose of the plate in this cooler is
to act as a flywheel affect of energy when warm product is put in the
box.
2. The same insulated box can be cooled by a plain copper tube coil
attached to interior wall. When I did fish hold box designs I used
stainless tubing with tubing above and below the water.
3. Either one of the above concepts can be used with an existing large
refrigeration system by splitting the refrigerant flow.

I have system #1 in one of my boats and system #3 in the other.

Glen here is a concept using a Danfoss BD50 air cooled condensing
unit, and 50 ft. of ¼ inch tubing as an evaporator coil, A receiver
and expansion valve instead of a capillary tube.

This combination in a drink cooler with a 30 degree evaporator
temperature might deliver 790 btu. Per hour. ( Danfoss ASHRAE
Capacity chart with compressor running at 3500 rpm ). I would also
install a manual speed selector switch to adjust compressor speed for
current box demand.

From the author of books on boat refrigeration
http://www.kollmann-marine.com

Glenn,

I'm starting to wonder if a good ice chest like the Coleman Extreme by
itself
might be sufficient. It can be replenished with ice made in your freezer.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:vW5Uc.29891$Jo1.23863@lakeread01...
#2 is the idea I am leaning towards. I have room to mount an air cooled
BD50 directly below the box with plenty of ventilation.

Couple of things still have me stalled. I would like to use .192" ID
stainless tube which should stand up better to bumps with cans and
corrosion but the thermal conductivity is a lot lower than copper. I
could compensate by going to .335" ID but that might slow down the
refrigerant to much to push the oil through. Think I will stick with
.192" and adjust the expansion valve and compressor speed.

The other thing is probably that I am not reading the charts right but I
can't figure out which orifice to use in the Danfoss expansion valve.
They all look to large for the BD50.

BTW, have you revised the DIY book? I have about worn my copy and the
Calder book out. :-)

Richard Kollmann wrote:
Glen, there are three proven way to build the system you are looking
for:

1. Install a full length stainless steel holding plate in an insulated
box, it can be used as a dry box or a wet box. See picture on front
page of my web site, this box's holding plate is connected to a
Danfoss BD2.5 compressor. The purpose of the plate in this cooler is
to act as a flywheel affect of energy when warm product is put in the
box.
2. The same insulated box can be cooled by a plain copper tube coil
attached to interior wall. When I did fish hold box designs I used
stainless tubing with tubing above and below the water.
3. Either one of the above concepts can be used with an existing large
refrigeration system by splitting the refrigerant flow.

I have system #1 in one of my boats and system #3 in the other.

Glen here is a concept using a Danfoss BD50 air cooled condensing
unit, and 50 ft. of ¼ inch tubing as an evaporator coil, A receiver
and expansion valve instead of a capillary tube.

This combination in a drink cooler with a 30 degree evaporator
temperature might deliver 790 btu. Per hour. ( Danfoss ASHRAE
Capacity chart with compressor running at 3500 rpm ). I would also
install a manual speed selector switch to adjust compressor speed for
current box demand.

From the author of books on boat refrigeration
http://www.kollmann-marine.com

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:12:18 -0400, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:

#2 is the idea I am leaning towards. I have room to mount an air cooled
BD50 directly below the box with plenty of ventilation.

Couple of things still have me stalled. I would like to use .192" ID
stainless tube which should stand up better to bumps with cans and
corrosion but the thermal conductivity is a lot lower than copper. I
could compensate by going to .335" ID but that might slow down the
refrigerant to much to push the oil through. Think I will stick with
.192" and adjust the expansion valve and compressor speed.

Glenn,

Another alternative could be a large stainless tube or box filled with
PEG/potable antifreeze, and containing the spiral of copper tube
inside. Depends the thermal conductivity of the PEG though. If a
stainless box is used this could have an aluminium finned surface to
improve thermal conductivity.

cheers,
Pete.

Doug Dotson wrote:
Glenn,

I'm starting to wonder if a good ice chest like the Coleman Extreme by
itself
might be sufficient. It can be replenished with ice made in your freezer.

Doug
s/v Callista

Doug,

You should know me better than that by now. :-) I love my gadgets and
besides, when I have to abandon my shop for the cruising life I will
need things to fix or I will die from withdrawals. :-)

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Ah! He's finally 'fessed up. Complexity is the goal. ;-)

Glenn Ashmore wrote:

Doug Dotson wrote:
Glenn,

I'm starting to wonder if a good ice chest like the Coleman Extreme by
itself
might be sufficient. It can be replenished with ice made in your freezer.

Doug
s/v Callista

Doug,

You should know me better than that by now. :-) I love my gadgets and
besides, when I have to abandon my shop for the cruising life I will
need things to fix or I will die from withdrawals. :-)

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

The true weakness of "software types." A simple answer is never good
enough! :-)

"Jim Conlin" wrote in message
...
Ah! He's finally 'fessed up. Complexity is the goal. ;-)

Glenn Ashmore wrote:

Doug Dotson wrote:
Glenn,

I'm starting to wonder if a good ice chest like the Coleman Extreme by
itself
might be sufficient. It can be replenished with ice made in your
freezer.

Doug
s/v Callista

Doug,

You should know me better than that by now. :-) I love my gadgets and
besides, when I have to abandon my shop for the cruising life I will
need things to fix or I will die from withdrawals. :-)

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

I'm a software type, too. True, I get paid more for a complex solution, but for
my own use, simpler is better.

Jim

Fred Williams wrote:

The true weakness of "software types." A simple answer is never good
enough! :-)

"Jim Conlin" wrote in message
...
Ah! He's finally 'fessed up. Complexity is the goal. ;-)

Glenn Ashmore wrote:

Doug Dotson wrote:
Glenn,

I'm starting to wonder if a good ice chest like the Coleman Extreme by
itself
might be sufficient. It can be replenished with ice made in your
freezer.

Doug
s/v Callista

Doug,

You should know me better than that by now. :-) I love my gadgets and
besides, when I have to abandon my shop for the cruising life I will
need things to fix or I will die from withdrawals. :-)

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

ASSHOLE!

"Fred Williams" wrote in message
...
The true weakness of "software types." A simple answer is never good
enough! :-)

"Jim Conlin" wrote in message
...
Ah! He's finally 'fessed up. Complexity is the goal. ;-)

Glenn Ashmore wrote:

Doug Dotson wrote:
Glenn,

I'm starting to wonder if a good ice chest like the Coleman Extreme
by
itself
might be sufficient. It can be replenished with ice made in your
freezer.

Doug
s/v Callista

Doug,

You should know me better than that by now. :-) I love my gadgets and
besides, when I have to abandon my shop for the cruising life I will
need things to fix or I will die from withdrawals. :-)

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or
lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Well, that was certainly a simple answer....

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:50:49 -0400, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

ASSHOLE!

"Fred Williams" wrote in message
.. .
The true weakness of "software types." A simple answer is never good
enough! :-)

"Jim Conlin" wrote in message
...
Ah! He's finally 'fessed up. Complexity is the goal. ;-)

Glenn Ashmore wrote:

Doug Dotson wrote:
Glenn,

I'm starting to wonder if a good ice chest like the Coleman Extreme
by
itself
might be sufficient. It can be replenished with ice made in your
freezer.

Doug
s/v Callista

Doug,

You should know me better than that by now. :-) I love my gadgets and
besides, when I have to abandon my shop for the cruising life I will
need things to fix or I will die from withdrawals. :-)

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or
lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

I will have to admit to an old programming axiom:
"Within every complex program there is a simple one struggling to get
out." :-)

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

In article PmyVc.1663$A91.1254@okepread02,
Glenn Ashmore wrote:

I will have to admit to an old programming axiom:
"Within every complex program there is a simple one struggling to get
out." :-)

Ain't it the truth. One program I was tasked to maintain was 9000 lines
long. By the time I finished, it was 3700 lines, did three times the
work, didn't keep crashing, giving strange answers, and we no longer had
to keep a single programmer maintaining it full time.

Consultants!

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Ah yes, the result of: "You guys start coding, I'll go find out what they
want." :-)

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:PmyVc.1663$A91.1254@okepread02...
I will have to admit to an old programming axiom:
"Within every complex program there is a simple one struggling to get
out." :-)

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Fred Williams wrote:
Ah yes, the result of: "You guys start coding, I'll go find out what they
want." :-)

Actually, it is a result of another programming axium. "The customer
never knows exactly what he wants but he does know what he does not want
once he sees it." :-)

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

Careful there mate! I were one, even before I lernt to spel it! :-)

"Jere Lull" wrote in message
...
In article PmyVc.1663$A91.1254@okepread02,
Glenn Ashmore wrote:

I will have to admit to an old programming axiom:
"Within every complex program there is a simple one struggling to get
out." :-)

Ain't it the truth. One program I was tasked to maintain was 9000 lines
long. By the time I finished, it was 3700 lines, did three times the
work, didn't keep crashing, giving strange answers, and we no longer had
to keep a single programmer maintaining it full time.

Consultants!

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/