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Windlass Electrical Connection
I am considering adding a electric windlass to my boat and I would like some
opinions on the best way to connect to the electrical system. The windlass will be approximately 40 feet from my house battery bank which is 700amps. It has been suggested to me to place a small battery up close to the windlass so you don't have to run heavy battery cable such a distance and sustain the power loss. Small cable could be run to the battery strictly for recharging. Thanks for the help. Ray Cullum S/V FROLIC |
Windlass Electrical Connection
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Windlass Electrical Connection
"Gene Kearns" wrote in message ... On 27 Jul 2004 15:50:00 GMT, (Ray Cullum) wrote: I am considering adding a electric windlass to my boat and I would like some opinions on the best way to connect to the electrical system. The windlass will be approximately 40 feet from my house battery bank which is 700amps. It has been suggested to me to place a small battery up close to the windlass so you don't have to run heavy battery cable such a distance and sustain the power loss. Small cable could be run to the battery strictly for recharging. Thanks for the help. Ray Cullum S/V FROLIC A run of 80 feet is going to be some truly huge cable. No it isn't, for an 80 Amp load and 80 foot run "2" gauge is only 10% loss. You could go up to "0" gauge and still be only 35 pounds. And this is weight distributing across the length, not just in the bow. In fact, a battery placed up forward may actually weigh less. The down side of an additional battery, is that if it poops out you won't have a large enough cable capacity to actually run the windlass..... you'll have to run the engine to charge the battery. A no-fun situation if you find yourself in a position that the anchor *really* needs to come up. I have a few thoughts at: http://myworkshop.idleplay.net/Caver...ss_Project.htm |
Windlass Electrical Connection
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Windlass Electrical Connection
I think there are more disadvantages to this system than advantages.
The disadvantages a -another battery to purchase/maintain/eventually replace -locating a battery forward in an area possibly not well designed for batteries -you now have two sets of wiring to route and maintain: battery to windlass and charging system to battery -devising a method of keeping the battery charged but not overcharged/interfere with charging other batteries -lower total power to the windlass than from a big house bank The advantage would seem to be saving money on heavy cable and not having to route this cable through the boat. I just purchased 2/0 tinned battery cable from Hardware Specialties in Seattle for $1.69 per foot. I don't consider this to be that big a cost. I could have bought 2/0 welding cable for $1.04 per foot if I really wanted to save money. I prefer going with the cable as once its installed the work is over. No batteries to maintain and I get full power from my house bank. "Ray Cullum" wrote in message ... I am considering adding a electric windlass to my boat and I would like some opinions on the best way to connect to the electrical system. The windlass will be approximately 40 feet from my house battery bank which is 700amps. It has been suggested to me to place a small battery up close to the windlass so you don't have to run heavy battery cable such a distance and sustain the power loss. Small cable could be run to the battery strictly for recharging. Thanks for the help. Ray Cullum S/V FROLIC |
Windlass Electrical Connection
"Gene Kearns" wrote in message ... A run of 80 feet is going to be some truly huge cable. No it isn't, for an 80 Amp load and 80 foot run "2" gauge is only 10% loss. You could go up to "0" gauge and still be only 35 pounds. And this is weight distributing across the length, not just in the bow. It is kinda hard to respond with any sort of specificity, since the poster never mentioned the ampacity required for the windlass. Thus, I don't know how you came to the conclusion that you arrived at..... With the exception of the bigger Maxwell windlasses, the current is 85 Amps or under for the windlasses in the West catalog. The 1/0 AWG is good to 130 Amps, though you could go to 2/0 for another 10 pounds (and $50). Of course, if you had a large windlass, you probably don't want a minimal battery, so everything gets scaled up. For example, S-L specifies for 12V: 6 AWG for 80' for the Sprint 600.......... $1.89/ft 1/0 AWG for 89' for the Sprint 1000.... $5.99/ft 2 AWG for 89' for the Sprint 1500....... $2.89/ft 1/0 AWG for 89' for the Sprint 3000.... $5.99/ft West Marine is the last place to go for bulk wire. You can get a 100 foot spool of 1/0 for less than $200. http://bestboatwire.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=24_48 Although more than a battery, you don't have to replace it periodically, you don't have to mount it, or think about combiners, etc. The fittings and breaker for the main cable are essentially the same either way, so the battery just adds more stuff. Prices per West Marine retail. 10 AWG feeder.....................................$.69/ft You might want to think about the voltage drop on a battery charging wire - giving up 10% would mean that the battery is chronically under charged. That 10 AWG is only good for a trickle charge. You'd end up running 8 AWG, or maybe even 6, and you still don't have enough wire capacity to run the windlass if the forward battery is dead, though hopefully you could put some charge on it in 15 minutes. |
Windlass Electrical Connection
Sorry about not including the Windlass Amps. It is 125 underload.
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Windlass Electrical Connection
The concept is that that windlass battery is used so seldom that you can
trickle charge it. Personally, I installed the heavy cable and generally only run the windlass when the engine is running. An extra battery, extra charger, etc seems more trouble than it is worth. Doug s/v Callista ps. When did the word "ampacity" enter the alphabet? "Dick Locke" wrote in message ... On 27 Jul 2004 15:50:00 GMT, (Ray Cullum) wrote: I am considering adding a electric windlass to my boat and I would like some opinions on the best way to connect to the electrical system. The windlass will be approximately 40 feet from my house battery bank which is 700amps. It has been suggested to me to place a small battery up close to the windlass so you don't have to run heavy battery cable such a distance and sustain the power loss. Small cable could be run to the battery strictly for recharging. Thanks for the help. Ray Cullum S/V FROLIC Two For What it's Worth items: West Marine in their Advisor pages in the catalog suggests not doing this on the grounds that the proper cabling for full charger output or full alternator output is almost as big as the proper cabling for the winches. Remember most people have their engine running when raising anchor. For a small savings in cable cost you lose storage space and add weight in the bow. Second, the boat I bought is wired this way and the forward battery is connected through disconnect switches to both the windlass and a bow thruster. It also has the capability to utilize the forward battery (I think it's a 4D but I haven't opened the box yet) as a house battery. It works fine but when time comes for battery replacement I'll examine rewiring the cables that run forward ( think they are about size 0 or 2) and getting the battery out of the bow. |
Windlass Electrical Connection
That was kinda my point (poorly made). If you approach the gage
necessary to do a good job charging the "forward" battery properly, you are dangerously close to putting in cable appropriate to running the windlass. A trickle charge *forces* you to use the battery almost exclusively. That is the theory of the forward battery. It is trickle charged and is used exclusively to run the windlass with no fallback. That is why just taking the plunge and laying in the heavy wire is the better solution in many instances. If one is going to go to the trouble of installing a windlass then wiring it properly is part of the project. Doug s/v Callista |
Windlass Electrical Connection
On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:36:58 -0400, "Doug Dotson"
wrote: The concept is that that windlass battery is used so seldom that you can trickle charge it. Personally, I installed the heavy cable and generally only run the windlass when the engine is running. An extra battery, extra charger, etc seems more trouble than it is worth. OK, I see. Doesn't seem very reliable to me...solar/wind depends on good weather, AC-DC charger requires an inverter or being on shore power, and I'm not sure there's a DC-DC trickle charger. Doug s/v Callista ps. When did the word "ampacity" enter the alphabet? It's not in my vocabulary either, check the person who used it ;-) |
Windlass Electrical Connection
Must be up there with "stratigery" and "nucluler" :)
wrote in message ... On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:33:16 GMT, Dick Locke wrote: On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:36:58 -0400, "Doug Dotson" wrote: The concept is that that windlass battery is used so seldom that you can trickle charge it. Personally, I installed the heavy cable and generally only run the windlass when the engine is running. An extra battery, extra charger, etc seems more trouble than it is worth. OK, I see. Doesn't seem very reliable to me...solar/wind depends on good weather, AC-DC charger requires an inverter or being on shore power, and I'm not sure there's a DC-DC trickle charger. Doug s/v Callista ps. When did the word "ampacity" enter the alphabet? It's not in my vocabulary either, check the person who used it ;-) http://www.electrician.com/articles/ampacity.htm BB |
Windlass Electrical Connection
I prefer to have the windlass and bowthruster to be powered primarily
by the engine when it is running. The Eliminator from Ample Power is basically a DC/DC charger but it will add $300 to the project. Lots of folks use welding cable rather than the tinned marine grade cable. It's alot cheaper and more flexable. Just use adhesive lined heat shrink to seal the lugs on the ends to keep out the moisture. Doug s/v Callista "Dick Locke" wrote in message ... On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:36:58 -0400, "Doug Dotson" wrote: The concept is that that windlass battery is used so seldom that you can trickle charge it. Personally, I installed the heavy cable and generally only run the windlass when the engine is running. An extra battery, extra charger, etc seems more trouble than it is worth. OK, I see. Doesn't seem very reliable to me...solar/wind depends on good weather, AC-DC charger requires an inverter or being on shore power, and I'm not sure there's a DC-DC trickle charger. Doug s/v Callista ps. When did the word "ampacity" enter the alphabet? It's not in my vocabulary either, check the person who used it ;-) |
Windlass Electrical Connection
Lots of folks use welding cable rather than the tinned marine grade
cable. It's alot cheaper and more flexible. In my case the welding cable was priced at $1.04/ft but I decided to buy the tinned battery cable at $1.69/ft because I planned to solder terminals to the end. I expect this will be more successful if I start with tinned cable. (I think the normal price for the 2/0 welding cable was something like $1.39 but they had a spool going for $1.04) "Doug Dotson" wrote in message ... I prefer to have the windlass and bowthruster to be powered primarily by the engine when it is running. The Eliminator from Ample Power is basically a DC/DC charger but it will add $300 to the project. Lots of folks use welding cable rather than the tinned marine grade cable. It's alot cheaper and more flexable. Just use adhesive lined heat shrink to seal the lugs on the ends to keep out the moisture. Doug s/v Callista "Dick Locke" wrote in message ... On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:36:58 -0400, "Doug Dotson" wrote: The concept is that that windlass battery is used so seldom that you can trickle charge it. Personally, I installed the heavy cable and generally only run the windlass when the engine is running. An extra battery, extra charger, etc seems more trouble than it is worth. OK, I see. Doesn't seem very reliable to me...solar/wind depends on good weather, AC-DC charger requires an inverter or being on shore power, and I'm not sure there's a DC-DC trickle charger. Doug s/v Callista ps. When did the word "ampacity" enter the alphabet? It's not in my vocabulary either, check the person who used it ;-) |
Windlass Electrical Connection
Actually soldering terminals on such large cable is not
recommended. The solder wicks up into the wire under the insulation several inches and results in a situation that is very suseptable to cracking over time to due to vibration. In any case, one normally tins the end of a wire before soldering it anyway. No need to pay top dollar when only the ends need to be tinned. Better to just crimp the terminals on and then seal against moisture using adhesive lined heat shrink. Doug s/v Callista "Gordon Wedman" wrote in message news:bTwOc.20$T_6.6@edtnps89... Lots of folks use welding cable rather than the tinned marine grade cable. It's alot cheaper and more flexible. In my case the welding cable was priced at $1.04/ft but I decided to buy the tinned battery cable at $1.69/ft because I planned to solder terminals to the end. I expect this will be more successful if I start with tinned cable. (I think the normal price for the 2/0 welding cable was something like $1.39 but they had a spool going for $1.04) "Doug Dotson" wrote in message ... I prefer to have the windlass and bowthruster to be powered primarily by the engine when it is running. The Eliminator from Ample Power is basically a DC/DC charger but it will add $300 to the project. Lots of folks use welding cable rather than the tinned marine grade cable. It's alot cheaper and more flexable. Just use adhesive lined heat shrink to seal the lugs on the ends to keep out the moisture. Doug s/v Callista "Dick Locke" wrote in message ... On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:36:58 -0400, "Doug Dotson" wrote: The concept is that that windlass battery is used so seldom that you can trickle charge it. Personally, I installed the heavy cable and generally only run the windlass when the engine is running. An extra battery, extra charger, etc seems more trouble than it is worth. OK, I see. Doesn't seem very reliable to me...solar/wind depends on good weather, AC-DC charger requires an inverter or being on shore power, and I'm not sure there's a DC-DC trickle charger. Doug s/v Callista ps. When did the word "ampacity" enter the alphabet? It's not in my vocabulary either, check the person who used it ;-) |
Windlass Electrical Connection
Doug Dotson wrote:
The concept is that that windlass battery is used so seldom that you can trickle charge it. Personally, I installed the heavy cable and generally only run the windlass when the engine is running. Install heavy cables and plan to run the engine when using the windlass. Some day you may have almost dead batteries but still need to weigh the anchor. An extra battery, extra charger, etc seems more trouble than it is worth. Doug s/v Callista ps. When did the word "ampacity" enter the alphabet? "Dick Locke" wrote in message ... On 27 Jul 2004 15:50:00 GMT, (Ray Cullum) wrote: I am considering adding a electric windlass to my boat and I would like some opinions on the best way to connect to the electrical system. The windlass will be approximately 40 feet from my house battery bank which is 700amps. It has been suggested to me to place a small battery up close to the windlass so you don't have to run heavy battery cable such a distance and sustain the power loss. Small cable could be run to the battery strictly for recharging. Thanks for the help. Ray Cullum S/V FROLIC Two For What it's Worth items: West Marine in their Advisor pages in the catalog suggests not doing this on the grounds that the proper cabling for full charger output or full alternator output is almost as big as the proper cabling for the winches. Remember most people have their engine running when raising anchor. For a small savings in cable cost you lose storage space and add weight in the bow. Second, the boat I bought is wired this way and the forward battery is connected through disconnect switches to both the windlass and a bow thruster. It also has the capability to utilize the forward battery (I think it's a 4D but I haven't opened the box yet) as a house battery. It works fine but when time comes for battery replacement I'll examine rewiring the cables that run forward ( think they are about size 0 or 2) and getting the battery out of the bow. |
Windlass Electrical Connection
Yes, I've heard that the cable can become very stiff and this can cause
problems. I plan to fix the ends firmly in place with rubber covered metal clamps. I may go to crimping if I can find a place that can do a good job on this size cable. As for not using tinned cable, I guess this will work but it is very hard to heat up such thick copper cable and this might compromise a good all-round tinning of bare copper. "Doug Dotson" wrote in message ... Actually soldering terminals on such large cable is not recommended. The solder wicks up into the wire under the insulation several inches and results in a situation that is very suseptable to cracking over time to due to vibration. In any case, one normally tins the end of a wire before soldering it anyway. No need to pay top dollar when only the ends need to be tinned. Better to just crimp the terminals on and then seal against moisture using adhesive lined heat shrink. Doug s/v Callista "Gordon Wedman" wrote in message news:bTwOc.20$T_6.6@edtnps89... Lots of folks use welding cable rather than the tinned marine grade cable. It's alot cheaper and more flexible. In my case the welding cable was priced at $1.04/ft but I decided to buy the tinned battery cable at $1.69/ft because I planned to solder terminals to the end. I expect this will be more successful if I start with tinned cable. (I think the normal price for the 2/0 welding cable was something like $1.39 but they had a spool going for $1.04) "Doug Dotson" wrote in message ... I prefer to have the windlass and bowthruster to be powered primarily by the engine when it is running. The Eliminator from Ample Power is basically a DC/DC charger but it will add $300 to the project. Lots of folks use welding cable rather than the tinned marine grade cable. It's alot cheaper and more flexable. Just use adhesive lined heat shrink to seal the lugs on the ends to keep out the moisture. Doug s/v Callista "Dick Locke" wrote in message ... On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:36:58 -0400, "Doug Dotson" wrote: The concept is that that windlass battery is used so seldom that you can trickle charge it. Personally, I installed the heavy cable and generally only run the windlass when the engine is running. An extra battery, extra charger, etc seems more trouble than it is worth. OK, I see. Doesn't seem very reliable to me...solar/wind depends on good weather, AC-DC charger requires an inverter or being on shore power, and I'm not sure there's a DC-DC trickle charger. Doug s/v Callista ps. When did the word "ampacity" enter the alphabet? It's not in my vocabulary either, check the person who used it ;-) |
Windlass Electrical Connection
"Gordon Wedman" wrote in message news:62VPc.24941$hw6.14217@edtnps84... Yes, I've heard that the cable can become very stiff and this can cause problems. I plan to fix the ends firmly in place with rubber covered metal clamps. Not sure what you are getting at here. I may go to crimping if I can find a place that can do a good job on this size cable. You can get an inexpensive crimper at West Marine. Does a fine job on 2/0 cable. As for not using tinned cable, I guess this will work but it is very hard to heat up such thick copper cable and this might compromise a good all-round tinning of bare copper. This is why soldering large cable is not recommended. Take a look at the starting cables in your car. Not likely you will find a soldered connection. I used to have a copy of a NASA Tech Briefs that had a good article on soldering vs crimping. They found crimping more reliable for many reasons. Micro-cracks in the solder joint eventually lead to corrosion and mechanical failure due to thermal cycling were among the culprits. "Doug Dotson" wrote in message ... Actually soldering terminals on such large cable is not recommended. The solder wicks up into the wire under the insulation several inches and results in a situation that is very suseptable to cracking over time to due to vibration. In any case, one normally tins the end of a wire before soldering it anyway. No need to pay top dollar when only the ends need to be tinned. Better to just crimp the terminals on and then seal against moisture using adhesive lined heat shrink. Doug s/v Callista "Gordon Wedman" wrote in message news:bTwOc.20$T_6.6@edtnps89... Lots of folks use welding cable rather than the tinned marine grade cable. It's alot cheaper and more flexible. In my case the welding cable was priced at $1.04/ft but I decided to buy the tinned battery cable at $1.69/ft because I planned to solder terminals to the end. I expect this will be more successful if I start with tinned cable. (I think the normal price for the 2/0 welding cable was something like $1.39 but they had a spool going for $1.04) "Doug Dotson" wrote in message ... I prefer to have the windlass and bowthruster to be powered primarily by the engine when it is running. The Eliminator from Ample Power is basically a DC/DC charger but it will add $300 to the project. Lots of folks use welding cable rather than the tinned marine grade cable. It's alot cheaper and more flexable. Just use adhesive lined heat shrink to seal the lugs on the ends to keep out the moisture. Doug s/v Callista "Dick Locke" wrote in message ... On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:36:58 -0400, "Doug Dotson" wrote: The concept is that that windlass battery is used so seldom that you can trickle charge it. Personally, I installed the heavy cable and generally only run the windlass when the engine is running. An extra battery, extra charger, etc seems more trouble than it is worth. OK, I see. Doesn't seem very reliable to me...solar/wind depends on good weather, AC-DC charger requires an inverter or being on shore power, and I'm not sure there's a DC-DC trickle charger. Doug s/v Callista ps. When did the word "ampacity" enter the alphabet? It's not in my vocabulary either, check the person who used it ;-) |
Windlass Electrical Connection
On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 23:17:22 GMT, "Gordon Wedman"
wrote: As for not using tinned cable, I guess this will work but it is very hard to heat up such thick copper cable and this might compromise a good all-round tinning of bare copper. ============================================= You can do the crimping with a large NicoPress tool. That's what I use and have never had a failure. Cover it with glue filled shrink tubing and it will look and perform very well. No soldering required. |
Windlass Electrical Connection
If you have a grind stone, the $15 12 inch cable cutters from China
make a fine crimping tool, when the cutting edges are reground to a circle when closed. I use #2 welding cable for a short run, with copper ring terminals crimped each end Brian Whatcott Altus OK On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 23:17:22 GMT, "Gordon Wedman" wrote: Yes, I've heard that the cable can become very stiff and this can cause problems. I plan to fix the ends firmly in place with rubber covered metal clamps. I may go to crimping if I can find a place that can do a good job on this size cable. As for not using tinned cable, I guess this will work but it is very hard to heat up such thick copper cable and this might compromise a good all-round tinning of bare copper. "Doug Dotson" wrote in message ... Actually soldering terminals on such large cable is not recommended. The solder wicks up into the wire under the insulation several inches and results in a situation that is very suseptable to cracking over time to due to vibration. In any case, one normally tins the end of a wire before soldering it anyway. No need to pay top dollar when only the ends need to be tinned. Better to just crimp the terminals on and then seal against moisture using adhesive lined heat shrink. Doug s/v Callista "Gordon Wedman" wrote in message news:bTwOc.20$T_6.6@edtnps89... Lots of folks use welding cable rather than the tinned marine grade cable. It's alot cheaper and more flexible. In my case the welding cable was priced at $1.04/ft but I decided to buy the tinned battery cable at $1.69/ft because I planned to solder terminals to the end. I expect this will be more successful if I start with tinned cable. (I think the normal price for the 2/0 welding cable was something like $1.39 but they had a spool going for $1.04) "Doug Dotson" wrote in message ... I prefer to have the windlass and bowthruster to be powered primarily by the engine when it is running. The Eliminator from Ample Power is basically a DC/DC charger but it will add $300 to the project. Lots of folks use welding cable rather than the tinned marine grade cable. It's alot cheaper and more flexable. Just use adhesive lined heat shrink to seal the lugs on the ends to keep out the moisture. Doug s/v Callista "Dick Locke" wrote in message ... On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:36:58 -0400, "Doug Dotson" wrote: The concept is that that windlass battery is used so seldom that you can trickle charge it. Personally, I installed the heavy cable and generally only run the windlass when the engine is running. An extra battery, extra charger, etc seems more trouble than it is worth. OK, I see. Doesn't seem very reliable to me...solar/wind depends on good weather, AC-DC charger requires an inverter or being on shore power, and I'm not sure there's a DC-DC trickle charger. Doug s/v Callista ps. When did the word "ampacity" enter the alphabet? It's not in my vocabulary either, check the person who used it ;-) |
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