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Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

This is a tale of the death of a Frigoboat keel cooler installation.

This discussion (or the predecessor) began on this forum, here
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...em-106061.html.
Folks weighed in, but Frigoboat Info took it offline with me, as the problem
was to prove complex.

In the end, we tried just about everything. FI sent me an air cooler, in
case, somehow, the keel cooler was damaged by running it out of the water.
We tried it in replacement of, and then in tandem with, the keel cooler.
The issue got worse. I'll save you the gory details, other than that I had
more than 1000 data points of time, pressures, plus high pressure connector,
low pressure connector, compressor and box temps, over 3 months or so, and
included 2 lengthy evacuations, the second of which was nearly 2 days, and
recharges.

Nothing worked. FI felt that adding a cap tube filter and a filter dryer to
the system would resolve a symptom which was suggestive of something
blocking the system, but which moved from time to time, allowing
intermittent cooling. However, the cap tube filter involved cutting a line
and doing some silver soldering, a task FI felt better reserved for a
talented refrigeration professional. Given the finicky nature of the
Frigoboat systems, due to their size, I felt that one who was specifically
knowledgeable about Frigoboat - including perhaps my coming to Annapolis,
for FI's team, would be best. FI recommended Clay Hansen, of Hansen Marine
Services, we got to the dock literally down the driveway from his shop, and
commenced.

The first week's adventures can be seen in the thread linked above. Nothing
we did changed matters, despite the rather extreme measures we tried. The
case was tried, and the jury was out. This morning, the jury came in.

I killed it. Whether it was running the keel cooler out of the water, or
just the conditions in the yard, Clay, my referred pro - and by now close
acquaintance, as I "assisted" in his work aboard - in consulting with
several other refrigeration professionals, learned why our efforts - which
included the welding in of a cap tube filter, adding a filter dryer,
evacuation and recharge, flushing the system through both service ports,
followed by a nitrogen blast, isolating the evaporator (the suspected
problem point, which was true, but not the "real" problem) and successive
nitrogen blast/suck vacuum on both sides of the evaporator, alternating,
repeatedly, to no avail) - were fruitless.

The oil used in BD compressors changes state if it gets too hot, per Clay's
consultants, who have seen this happen many times, in older systems. It
doesn't happen immediately, which is why it's nearly never seen in new
systems. The first clue (which Clay observed as irregular, and pursued with
his other pros) was that during the flush/nitrogen blow, a yellow oily
liquid came out. It should have been clear, or perhaps slightly brown.

That change of state results in the oil not remaining perfectly liquid. I
don't know the chemistry, but the effect is that it clogs stuff up,
particularly in really small orifices, such as, perhaps, the keel cooler (I
don't know what the size is on the tubing in the keel cooler, but infer it
must be pretty small to allow the lengths needed for cooling in that small
package), and for sure, the capillary tube, which, if not the keel cooler,
in our case, was for sure packed up (see above about attempts to remedy).

Unfortunately, if absolutely all of the contaminated oil were not removed
from the system, it will only happen again, later.

The bottom line is to start over.

If I had it to do over again, I'd not change anything other than to have
something more effective than the very small heat sink and fan on the
compressor, and make very damn sure the system was not run out of the water
(or, perhaps, without an add-on air cooler, which VecoNA supplied for
testing purposes - swapping for the keel cooler, or even in tandem didn't
solve the problem).

As I understand it, if the compressor is kept cool, this problem is unlikely
to occur. If not, over time, it's nearly certain to occur. Whether or not
the Frigoboat air-cooled system, as provided as a single unit, rather than
as an add-on air cooler, would be sufficient to move the enough air over the
compressor to avoid this in the future I can't say. But it's not a box
system which completely encloses the compressor, channeling air, lessening
the air flow effectiveness over the compressor, and so, as it was in the
yard (or would be at anchor, too), with ambient temps close to, or perhaps
exceeding 100F, that might prove problematic, eventually.

At one point in my testing with the add-on air cooler, before I'd hooked it
up, electrically or with refrigerant, I merely directed the air flow from
the air cooler fan on the compressor, and temperatures dropped notably, even
though the heat sink fan wasn't connected (I had to use those terminals for
the air cooler fan). Perhaps severe ventilation would have been enoughto
make my failure not happen - but I doubt it, as we had an AC bullet fan
directed on the compressor during the time it was run out of the water, to
no avail (or, at least, the problem occurred, anyway).

All this presumes that I caused the problem by running it out of the water.
I suppose it's possible that compressor temperatures, as we were in the
tropics for a couple of years of the use of the system, and the compressor's
in the engine room, could have reached that overheat condition without the
added stress of running the keel cooler out of the water. We'll never know,
as I don't care to attempt to duplicate the circumstances; once bitten,
twice $hy, so to speak, and we'll be very different in our new installation.

I have to say, however, that until I stuck my foot in it, the system was a
real pleasure. But perhaps my egregious error can be avoided by others in
the future. To be sure, while I didn't see the caution at the time,
Frigoboat makes it clear you should not run the system out of the water
without - at a minimum - having water running over the keel cooler.
However, there was no mention of the actual consequences. For a techie
(well, interested in everything, and moderately able to understand the
physics and realities), that information would have been orders of magnitude
more effective to me than "don't do this" - with its implication that it
would simply be inefficient, rather than destructive. Stupidly, because it
continued to work a treat, I did that for a time, as, all around it, we were
epoxy fairing, grinding and all that sort of stuff at the time. It can't
have helped, whatever the other instances of high temperatures for the
compressor may have been.

However, in the end, our choice for replacement is a Sea Frost air and
water-cooled (like the air cooler is an option after the fact on Frigoboat
Keel Cooler systems, this will allow, when the Keel Cooler is removed,
installation of another thru-hull for water-cooling as backup or extremely
hot circumstances) system. It solves a problem which would present to
someone retrofitting cold plates and engine-driven systems, that of access
in an already-built box. The evaporator plate which I got (see
http://www.justpickone.org/skip/gall...ze=640&start=0
and onward for what we did initially) couldn't possibly be inserted into our
current box. Whether we have to cut it up to get it out remains to be seen.

The Sea Frost system relies on two separate evaporator plates which will
make it through our existing door opening, and are much deeper (courtesy of
our depth of the box), allowing for the same surface area in a different
configuration, and a different configuration than the troublesome capillary
tube (Frigoboat's solution) to accomplish the superheat portion of the
cycle. That they are also fully stainless steel is encouraging/reassuring,
in that I can't be ham-handed enough during defrosting to damage them, as
could be the case with the typical aluminum evaporator plate (and which was
the reason I chose a SS-fronted plate to begin with, despite it being less
efficient than straight aluminum).

I have no reason to expect other than stellar results with our new system.
And my experience should NOT be a reason not to buy a Frigoboat system - but
it should be a heads-up as to how you treat it, if you do.

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

When a man comes to like a sea life, he is not fit to live on land.
- Dr. Samuel Johnson

Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

On Tue, 5 Nov 2013 20:38:40 -0500, "Flying Pig"
wrote:

I have no reason to expect other than stellar results with our new system.
And my experience should NOT be a reason not to buy a Frigoboat system - but
it should be a heads-up as to how you treat it, if you do.

===

Interesting. Hope your new system works well for you.

Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

This is a tale of the death of a Frigoboat keel cooler installation.

I killed it. Whether it was running the keel cooler out of the water, or
just the conditions in the yard, Clay, my referred pro - and by now close
acquaintance, as I "assisted" in his work aboard - in consulting with
several other refrigeration professionals, learned why our efforts - which
included the welding in of a cap tube filter, adding a filter dryer,
evacuation and recharge, flushing the system through both service ports,
followed by a nitrogen blast, isolating the evaporator (the suspected
problem point, which was true, but not the "real" problem) and successive
nitrogen blast/suck vacuum on both sides of the evaporator, alternating,
repeatedly, to no avail) - were fruitless.

trim

If you believe that crap about the oil somehow changing
state and clogging up the works then you're very easily
led around by the nose. Trained by Lydia? :-)

There is supposed to be a fail-safe circuit that shuts down
an overheating compressor before it becomes damaged.
Even my cheapo Adler Barbour has one of those.

--
Sir Gregory

Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

On Wed, 6 Nov 2013 17:12:41 -0500, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·"
åke wrote:

"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

This is a tale of the death of a Frigoboat keel cooler installation.

I killed it. Whether it was running the keel cooler out of the water, or
just the conditions in the yard, Clay, my referred pro - and by now close
acquaintance, as I "assisted" in his work aboard - in consulting with
several other refrigeration professionals, learned why our efforts - which
included the welding in of a cap tube filter, adding a filter dryer,
evacuation and recharge, flushing the system through both service ports,
followed by a nitrogen blast, isolating the evaporator (the suspected
problem point, which was true, but not the "real" problem) and successive
nitrogen blast/suck vacuum on both sides of the evaporator, alternating,
repeatedly, to no avail) - were fruitless.

trim

If you believe that crap about the oil somehow changing
state and clogging up the works then you're very easily
led around by the nose. Trained by Lydia? :-)

And yet again the intrepid Capt. Neil advances into the fray.... and
****es all over his toes.

You ignorant ass, yes oil does "change state" when over heated, and if
you had the brains of a cockroach you would have looked into the facts
before you posted, rather then make a stupid statement and get
corrected.

Try:
http://highperformancehvac.com/compr...gnosis-repair/

sporlanonline.com/literature/misc/10-207.pdf

http://www.achrnews.com/articles/rea...or-overheating

or any of the other 27,000 returns that google shows when searching
for "change in overheated refrigeration oil".

--
Cheers,

Bruce in Bangkok

Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 6 Nov 2013 17:12:41 -0500, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·"
åke wrote:

"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

This is a tale of the death of a Frigoboat keel cooler installation.

I killed it. Whether it was running the keel cooler out of the water, or
just the conditions in the yard, Clay, my referred pro - and by now close
acquaintance, as I "assisted" in his work aboard - in consulting with
several other refrigeration professionals, learned why our efforts - which
included the welding in of a cap tube filter, adding a filter dryer,
evacuation and recharge, flushing the system through both service ports,
followed by a nitrogen blast, isolating the evaporator (the suspected
problem point, which was true, but not the "real" problem) and successive
nitrogen blast/suck vacuum on both sides of the evaporator, alternating,
repeatedly, to no avail) - were fruitless.

trim

If you believe that crap about the oil somehow changing
state and clogging up the works then you're very easily
led around by the nose. Trained by Lydia? :-)

And yet again the intrepid Capt. Neil advances into the fray.... and
****es all over his toes.

You ignorant ass, yes oil does "change state" when over heated, and if
you had the brains of a cockroach you would have looked into the facts
before you posted, rather then make a stupid statement and get
corrected.

Try:
http://highperformancehvac.com/compr...gnosis-repair/

sporlanonline.com/literature/misc/10-207.pdf

http://www.achrnews.com/articles/rea...or-overheating

or any of the other 27,000 returns that google shows when searching
for "change in overheated refrigeration oil"

All that is but a non sequitur, Brucie-boi!

Unfortunately, you ignorantly chose to ignore the main point
of my response which point is, don't believe a bunch of crap
about overheated oil being the problem. *If* there, indeed, was
overheated oil then that indicates the fail-safe circuitry for an
overheated compressor was inoperable. THAT is a warranty
problem and THAT is why the Rubes at Frigiboat chose to
claim it was Skippy's problem for overheating the compressor
when, in fact, it was Frigiboat's problem because the overheat
censor/circuitry failed to work.

Here again is the main point which you edited out because
you ignorantly chose to ignore it because it serves to debunk
your childish ad hominem attack.

"There is supposed to be a fail-safe circuit that shuts down
an overheating compressor before it becomes damaged.
Even my cheapo Adler Barbour has one of those."

--
Sir Gregory

Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

On Thu, 7 Nov 2013 13:13:57 -0500, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·"
åke wrote:

"Bruce in Bangkok" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 6 Nov 2013 17:12:41 -0500, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·"
åke wrote:

"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

This is a tale of the death of a Frigoboat keel cooler installation.

I killed it. Whether it was running the keel cooler out of the water, or
just the conditions in the yard, Clay, my referred pro - and by now close
acquaintance, as I "assisted" in his work aboard - in consulting with
several other refrigeration professionals, learned why our efforts - which
included the welding in of a cap tube filter, adding a filter dryer,
evacuation and recharge, flushing the system through both service ports,
followed by a nitrogen blast, isolating the evaporator (the suspected
problem point, which was true, but not the "real" problem) and successive
nitrogen blast/suck vacuum on both sides of the evaporator, alternating,
repeatedly, to no avail) - were fruitless.

trim

If you believe that crap about the oil somehow changing
state and clogging up the works then you're very easily
led around by the nose. Trained by Lydia? :-)

And yet again the intrepid Capt. Neil advances into the fray.... and
****es all over his toes.

You ignorant ass, yes oil does "change state" when over heated, and if
you had the brains of a cockroach you would have looked into the facts
before you posted, rather then make a stupid statement and get
corrected.

Try:
http://highperformancehvac.com/compr...gnosis-repair/

sporlanonline.com/literature/misc/10-207.pdf

http://www.achrnews.com/articles/rea...or-overheating

or any of the other 27,000 returns that google shows when searching
for "change in overheated refrigeration oil"

All that is but a non sequitur, Brucie-boi!

Unfortunately, you ignorantly chose to ignore the main point
of my response which point is, don't believe a bunch of crap
about overheated oil being the problem. *If* there, indeed, was
overheated oil then that indicates the fail-safe circuitry for an

I took a point that you clearly stated, I even highlighted your
statement, with quotation marks, to show just what part of your post I
was replying to. What are you doing now? Trying to weasel out of the
fact that you wrote it?

Or in other words one could, based on your latest assertion, determine
that you post something about which you apparently know nothing about
50% of the time and we should expend effort to try and figure out
which part of your statement is correct and which part is the lie?

Amazing! You lie half of the time and apparently now want applause for
telling the truth half of the time.

The part you seem to be missing is that you, a non cruiser, are
slanging Skip, who is a cruiser. You really belong to a site entitled
something like "floating Trailer Trash" or perhaps "Permanently Moored
Sailor".
--
Cheers,

Bruce in Bangkok

Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

I'm leaving out the various conversations from contributors just to not get
in a ****ing match :{))

Richard Kollmann, a reasonably respected marine refrigeration guy, has been
playing this tune for quite a while.

The overheat function is supposed to be in the controller which, if IT'S
cool enough, won't do anything. If the outgoing gas (with minute traces of
oil in it, of course) gets hot enough (as apparently it did, based on my
having to replace an o-ring on the high pressure connector), it doesn't have
to be in the compressor to change state, either. So, unless whomever your
builder is had put in a sensor IN/ON the compressor, an overheat might well
be missed.

The bottom line, for Frigoboat (my new system ducts its air over the
compressor, and based on my small test of using the fan in the supplied air
cooler, alone - no refrigerant cooling in that unit - blowing on my
compressor resulting in a significant drop in temps, that will eliminate
even the *possibility* of overheat), is that the tiny heat sink and tinier
fan they use is insufficient, regardless of circumstance.

I base this on the temps achieved in the compressor with all three possible
connections - keel or air cooled alone, and both in tandem - of condensor.
That, with the air alone, resulted in very high temps at the compressor and
input line, but ambient temps at the output line of the air cooler. So,
with entirely adequate cooling of the output gas, the compressor and output
line were still in the range of overheat.

My new system is different in several significant ways.

First is that it's not a capillary tube-based system. That leads to the
second, that the smallest diameter line is 1/4" compared to the cap tube's
hair-width diameter (I don't know what it really was, but the outside was
about 1/16"). That cap tube, the evaporator-mounted
filter-drier/accumulator and ends of the suction line at the evaporator have
been sent off to Richard for his testing (he's been scratching his head for
years at Frigoboat failures).

Also, our new system has a filter-dryer-accumulator, with a sight glass.
That volume is massively more than the combined cap tube filter and filter
dryer which were sent by Frigoboat in trying to resolve our problem. So,
not only will I have a visual means of seeing charge state, the volume
makes it less sensitive to exact amounts, as well as providing a relatively
huge level of filtration/drying. I've been advised that unless the system
is opened (no quick-connects in this system), there's never going to be a
need to replace/refresh this.

Our system will have a (manually adjustable) valve which controls the level
of refrigerant return/input to the evaporator(s - we have two, now, which
ALSO will be more efficient due to the 8-sides available for air
circulation, rather than our bent plate's 4) rather than the cap tube, at
1/4" and not subject to fouling even if there WERE contamination. Which is
extremely unlikely because...

The system is comprised of a sealed box. The cooling fan on the condensor
either pulls or pushes air over the compressor, depending on the fan
orientation. In our case, it will be vented to the outside, in order to
dump heat from the engine room where it's located, rather than pulled in
from outside, so as to avoid salt-laden air. As our engine room is
reasonably well sealed, the incoming air will be traveling through the
bilge, the coolest place on the boat not refrigerated. In any event, this
unit has been proven successful even in 100° air - and, if I should ever
care to add it, is capable of water cooling, as well. However, given the 1A
draw on the pump, it would have to be in very cold water for the extra heat
dumping to be energy efficient. As we don't expect to spend any time in
that environment, likely that will remain only a sales point for whomever
buys the boat after we're off.

Finally, not related to the above, I was able to easily get out the
evaporator. All my heat-gun defrostings had made the adhesive of the
stainless plate easy to separate, and that folded into a third (on the bends
we used to make the 40" plate fit our box), which fit through the freezer
door opening. The evaporator was even easier, being aluminum. So, in the
end, getting the old system out was much easier than expected.

The new system was expected to be two 15x19 plates, but an error due to a
quickie measure meant that they wouldn't fit on the sides, by about 1/4" (my
supplier used a tape measure, and didn't allow for the bend, or something,
and the slight tapering of the box at the bottom), and so we now are waiting
for the arrival of a 14x19 plate, with the other 15" being mounted to the
hull-side wall, as being big enough. The usual design parameter is to place
the plates on opposing walls, but our installer felt that getting the extra
cooling outweighed the disadvantage of adjacent plates. As it is, he had to
use the smaller size because, while he COULD have ground down the mounting
edges to allow it to fit it would have been hard on the other plate, losing
two sides of air circulation behind the plates. So, while he DID do some
grinding, he quit when he saw how they'd lay together, in favor of the
increased air movement. As we STILL had/are having to wait for another part
to come, I wish that he'd abandoned it immediately rather than drilling the
holes in the hull-side wall, and gone for the slightly smaller plates
entirely, returning the two he ordered before cutting into the tubes and
attempting grinding of the edges to make the second one fit. But, it is
what it is.

As it is, since the new compressor is a BD80, it's got ample horses to pull
out the BTU, so it's probably all pretty academic, other than perhaps the
amp draw, as this system's lowest speed is half again the amps the BD50 it
replaces.

A small annoyance is that this system has its own smart/manual controller
with an integrated Carel thermostat, which we already had for the freezer,
so I now have a spare for my other Carel, which controls the spillover fan,
and, as the Frigo compressor is presumed inalterably contaminated, a spare
controller, to go along with a spare smart speed controller, as well. The
good news is that it's now going to be right next to the reefer's Carel, so
we can see the state and/or alter to manual control if we care to (we never
did other than in the testing we were doing for the Frigoboat) without
having to peer into the engine room.

It's not yet installed, but I have every expectation that it will work as
it's supposed to, out of the box. More when it's finished.

L8R

Skip

--

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

When a man comes to like a sea life, he is not fit to live on land.
- Dr. Samuel Johnson

Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
I'm leaving out the various conversations from contributors just to not get
in a ****ing match :{))

Richard Kollmann, a reasonably respected marine refrigeration guy, has been
playing this tune for quite a while.

The overheat function is supposed to be in the controller which, if IT'S
cool enough, won't do anything. If the outgoing gas (with minute traces of
oil in it, of course) gets hot enough (as apparently it did, based on my
having to replace an o-ring on the high pressure connector), it doesn't have
to be in the compressor to change state, either. So, unless whomever your
builder is had put in a sensor IN/ON the compressor, an overheat might well
be missed.

Well, that sure is a defective engineering design. It's a simple
matter to place a thermostat in or on the condenser which, when
it reaches a preset critical temperature, switches the unit off.

An overheat failsafe that's elsewhere is African engineering at best.

Frigoboat should be ashamed of such an inferior design.

--
Sir Gregory

Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

" Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·" åke wrote in message
...
"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
I'm leaving out the various conversations from contributors just to not
get in a ****ing match :{))

Richard Kollmann, a reasonably respected marine refrigeration guy, has
been playing this tune for quite a while.

The overheat function is supposed to be in the controller which, if IT'S
cool enough, won't do anything. If the outgoing gas (with minute traces
of oil in it, of course) gets hot enough (as apparently it did, based on
my having to replace an o-ring on the high pressure connector), it
doesn't have to be in the compressor to change state, either. So, unless
whomever your builder is had put in a sensor IN/ON the compressor, an
overheat might well be missed.

Well, that sure is a defective engineering design. It's a simple
matter to place a thermostat in or on the condenser which, when
it reaches a preset critical temperature, switches the unit off.

An overheat failsafe that's elsewhere is African engineering at best.

Frigoboat should be ashamed of such an inferior design.

--
Sir Gregory

Kollmann has several areas of design complaint about the Frigoboat system...

L8R

Skip

--

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog

When a man comes to like a sea life, he is not fit to live on land.
- Dr. Samuel Johnson

Update Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

I'll leave the original below for reference, as it's an old thread. It's so
old you might want to skip down to the attribute-marks section ([ "" in
front of each line] to get a basis point, or if you'd not seen it, to get a
clue; the masochists will read the entire referenced thread in CF) before
reading further...

So, in the end, there were 3 11x16 SS clad evaporator plates, in series,
through a constant-pressure control (functioning like an expansion valve),
running through a large evaporator-dryer, with sight glass, to a BD85 air
and water cooled compressor, all from Sea Frost.

The BD85, of course, has a higher capacity than the 50 it replaced, but at a
large cost in electrons. Low speed (there's a controller similar to the SSC
of Frigoboat, with, perhaps, some more smarts, as I don't know the specs of
how Frigoboat's unit manages the speeds, but the specs look impressive)
pulls 6A, the same as high on the 50. Ergo, at low, it should be removing
as much heat as the previous system did at high (watts = amps = BTU
removed).

The Frigoboat system did an admirable job while it was working. I could
take it to an indicated 0° in the freezer (control used box temp), far
colder than I needed, and still have it not running at full speed once the
temp had been reached.

Unfortunately for me, including the addition of the water cooling (another
complexity made unnecessary by the keel cooler in my Frigoboat system) by my
installer, Clay Hansen of Hansen Marine in St. Augustine, the system still
isn't right. As the initial installation had several defective components
(two temperature probes and the constant pressure valve) Clay gave it some
serious tweaking for about a month, while we were off the boat, and declared
it fit. On Christmas Eve 2013, when it wasn't hot, ever, it was working,
and we headed south. But...

It's voracious for electrons, and even at low speed, runs about 80% of the
time to achieve a box temperature in the 10-15° range, controlled by plate
temperature, the probe being at the bottom of the last plate. The
refrigerator, as it's fed from a spillover fan, continues to maintain its
temperatures satisfactorily, but at the cost of the freezer continually
having to run. Sea Frost's computer, if you let it run it (automatic
setting), looks for a 52% run time. Without a great deal more than the 6.5°
hysteresis recommended, there's no way possible to achieve that ratio on the
computer controlled version - and a higher gap would mean much more box temp
variation, something I'd become accustomed to not even thinking about, with
my previous (box temp) hysteresis of 2° - and to do so would be unacceptable
to me in any event.

Worse, after a decommissioning during a month-long trip ashore (I was on a
mooring and didn't dare leave it running), the third plate was only about
half frosted, with the compressor running non-stop, whereas before, it had
been complete, with the frost line ending an inch or so into the plate
before the return line to the constant pressure valve.

The Sea Frost owner, Cleave Horton, in my followups recently, had me fiddle
with the CPV, which resulted in an immediate frosting of not only the plate
but the return line (too much), and subsequent fiddlings have it back to
where it was, with the entire 3rd plate frosted, but the return line not
only very cold but almost frosted. Probably a pretty good place for it.

But that's with my having - at Cleave's strong suggestion - increased the
plate temp for shutoff by 2.5°, to 5°. So, I now have a warmer box, and
still about an 80% run time at low. I can jack up the speed and have it run
for shorter periods, but at a larger amp consumption. My expectation is that
running essentially full time, assuming the temp stays at the level you want
it to be (the function of the smart controller, rather than leaving it on a
given speed), is the most efficient. However, Cleave suggests leaving it at
low full time for the least amps used.

At that rate, based on no-wind nights, and next to nothing else on (2 0.1A
fans and breaker panel overhead), we're averaging 8 amps or higher just for
refrigeration - at night, when it's cooler. I can't support 200AH daily
loads, with added daytime (more heat, more stuff running, boxes being opened
occasionally) loads with my wind and solar unless conditions were absolutely
perfect - all bright sunny days and consistent winds of 15 or higher. The
amp draw is pretty consistent, whether on "automatic" - the equivalent of
the SSC in Frigoboat systems or "low"; we had one night of unexplainable 3A
average, and a couple of 12A average, but otherwise it's been in the 8A or
fractionally higher range overnight; this over more than 3 weeks of
observation.

After several emails back and forth, and several phone conversations, the
best Cleave could come up with was to play with the CPV, and "good luck" for
recommendations. This, despite his own manuals cautioning against lowering
the temps into the double-digit negative zone instead of merely to zero, was
accompanied by the assertion that 8° was way too cold, and that something
closer to the low to mid 20s was ample for freezing. Maybe if you're going
to rotate your stock on a daily basis, but that doesn't ring true for
anything resembling longer storage, let alone whether whatever it was you
wanted hard frozen would melt 5 minutes out of the freezer. As this system
cost, all-in, half more than the comparable (air cooled with keel cooler,
added filter-dryer and full wrap-around evaporator) Frigoboat system in
cost, this is most distressing.

Better yet, the metal screen filter in the water cooling installed (a Groco
WSB-500) started to disintegrate almost immediately, never mind its being
clogged and requiring frequent cleaning. So, for a small time, we ran it
without the water cooling. There was no chance. Temps in the freezer
remained in the mid to high 20s despite the system running full time.
Likely I'll replace the metal one with plastic, assuming I can source it
(how many times does a filter media fail?? - not much in the way of stocking
dealers), but it's just another annoyance. In the meantime, we're running
the pump, as we have a dome filter on the exterior, left over from when this
boat had air conditioning, and Cleave assures me that if it can't get
through that, the pump will happily move it along. Update since I drafted
this; I got new plastic filter media from Groco - a much larger mesh - and
sure enough, the flow improved greatly. Without the water cooling, our
system doesn't stand a chance in S. FL; it MIGHT be ok with air alone in
cold water and cool temps. However, here in Vero Beach, this last time we
took it off (only a few days' worth of running) to swap out the media, there
were 3 small barnacles on the housing. If those get into the cooling pipes,
we're dead. Obviously, whatever it is that barnacles start out as can fit
through the dome filter outside; I'm not sure that the plastic media is much
smaller. There isn't much dead time (no pump running) for these guys to get
a foothold, so I'm not optimistic. Does that mean I'll soon see a
degradation in my cooling water output even with a clear filter media???

I have no idea, at this point, whether the Carel thermostat I took out (his
electronic control has a Carel incorporated) was accurate, but I'd had it
set at 8° with a 2-degree hysteresis; it maintained it easily. This box
shows temps radically above that - the probe is near where the other was -
but shooting it with an infrared thermometer shows it to actually be about
10° at the spillover near the fan, and other temps much lower. E.g., bread
closest to the spillover 5°, hamburger package top near the plate 0°,
chicken package vertical to the plate -3°, and so on, with all three plates
well under 0°. So, regardless of the calibration, including that I've now
upped the plate shutoff to 6°, it's pretty cold in there, and the reefer
does (a good thing; it's been cold enough in the past to do it solely by
convection) occasionally have to use the spillover fan. I have yet to put
ice cream in there, but I suspect it would be OK. But still, it's an energy
hog.

If there had been any way short of pulling the boat (for a new keel cooler)
and destroying the galley (to get a new evaporator into the freezer), I
think I would have been much happier with a Frigoboat keel and air cooled
(air for when on shore, per Rob, Frigoboat's distributor in the US)
evaporator system, but also to move more air over the compressor),
protected - by the addition of a filter-dryer - from years-away refrigerant
oil contamination, allowing the capillary tube system to do its work. As it
is, the solution seems to be that I MUST run our Honda genset, every day,
for a full tank, about another ~$150/month, to keep up with the load. It
wouldn't take very long before even ditching and replacing the system every
5 years or so, including the necessary haulout, would be more cost efficient
than what I have now - if it were possible to replace the evaporator without
having to start over in the galley.

Finally, to forestall questions about the box itself, it's 6" of extruded
polystyrene, encased in epoxy, with radiation and conduction barriers
outside (aluminum foil and doorskin furring strips to give an air gap).
Both doors are double-gasketed, and, after much fiddling, I'm confident that
the gaskets are efficient. The boxes are, respectively - 16.25"D, 24.5"H
and 14.75/28.5"W - 3.4 and 6.56 CF respectively.

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
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When a man comes to like a sea life, he is not fit to live on land.
- Dr. Samuel Johnson
"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

This is a tale of the death of a Frigoboat keel cooler installation.

This discussion (or the predecessor) began on this forum, here
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...em-106061.html.
Folks weighed in, but Frigoboat Info took it offline with me, as the
problem
was to prove complex.

In the end, we tried just about everything. FI sent me an air cooler, in
case, somehow, the keel cooler was damaged by running it out of the water.
We tried it in replacement of, and then in tandem with, the keel cooler.
The issue got worse. I'll save you the gory details, other than that I
had
more than 1000 data points of time, pressures, plus high pressure
connector,
low pressure connector, compressor and box temps, over 3 months or so, and
included 2 lengthy evacuations, the second of which was nearly 2 days, and
recharges.

Nothing worked. FI felt that adding a cap tube filter and a filter dryer
to
the system would resolve a symptom which was suggestive of something
blocking the system, but which moved from time to time, allowing
intermittent cooling. However, the cap tube filter involved cutting a
line
and doing some silver soldering, a task FI felt better reserved for a
talented refrigeration professional. Given the finicky nature of the
Frigoboat systems, due to their size, I felt that one who was specifically
knowledgeable about Frigoboat - including perhaps my coming to Annapolis,
for FI's team, would be best. FI recommended Clay Hansen, of Hansen
Marine
Services, we got to the dock literally down the driveway from his shop,
and
commenced.

The first week's adventures can be seen in the thread linked above.
Nothing
we did changed matters, despite the rather extreme measures we tried. The
case was tried, and the jury was out. This morning, the jury came in.

I killed it. Whether it was running the keel cooler out of the water, or
just the conditions in the yard, Clay, my referred pro - and by now close
acquaintance, as I "assisted" in his work aboard - in consulting with
several other refrigeration professionals, learned why our efforts - which
included the welding in of a cap tube filter, adding a filter dryer,
evacuation and recharge, flushing the system through both service ports,
followed by a nitrogen blast, isolating the evaporator (the suspected
problem point, which was true, but not the "real" problem) and successive
nitrogen blast/suck vacuum on both sides of the evaporator, alternating,
repeatedly, to no avail) - were fruitless.

The oil used in BD compressors changes state if it gets too hot, per
Clay's
consultants, who have seen this happen many times, in older systems. It
doesn't happen immediately, which is why it's nearly never seen in new
systems. The first clue (which Clay observed as irregular, and pursued
with
his other pros) was that during the flush/nitrogen blow, a yellow oily
liquid came out. It should have been clear, or perhaps slightly brown.

That change of state results in the oil not remaining perfectly liquid. I
don't know the chemistry, but the effect is that it clogs stuff up,
particularly in really small orifices, such as, perhaps, the keel cooler
(I
don't know what the size is on the tubing in the keel cooler, but infer it
must be pretty small to allow the lengths needed for cooling in that small
package), and for sure, the capillary tube, which, if not the keel cooler,
in our case, was for sure packed up (see above about attempts to remedy).

Unfortunately, if absolutely all of the contaminated oil were not removed
from the system, it will only happen again, later.

The bottom line is to start over.

If I had it to do over again, I'd not change anything other than to have
something more effective than the very small heat sink and fan on the
compressor, and make very damn sure the system was not run out of the
water
(or, perhaps, without an add-on air cooler, which VecoNA supplied for
testing purposes - swapping for the keel cooler, or even in tandem didn't
solve the problem).

As I understand it, if the compressor is kept cool, this problem is
unlikely
to occur. If not, over time, it's nearly certain to occur. Whether or not
the Frigoboat air-cooled system, as provided as a single unit, rather than
as an add-on air cooler, would be sufficient to move the enough air over
the
compressor to avoid this in the future I can't say. But it's not a box
system which completely encloses the compressor, channeling air, lessening
the air flow effectiveness over the compressor, and so, as it was in the
yard (or would be at anchor, too), with ambient temps close to, or perhaps
exceeding 100F, that might prove problematic, eventually.

At one point in my testing with the add-on air cooler, before I'd hooked
it
up, electrically or with refrigerant, I merely directed the air flow from
the air cooler fan on the compressor, and temperatures dropped notably,
even
though the heat sink fan wasn't connected (I had to use those terminals
for
the air cooler fan). Perhaps severe ventilation would have been enoughto
make my failure not happen - but I doubt it, as we had an AC bullet fan
directed on the compressor during the time it was run out of the water, to
no avail (or, at least, the problem occurred, anyway).

All this presumes that I caused the problem by running it out of the
water.
I suppose it's possible that compressor temperatures, as we were in the
tropics for a couple of years of the use of the system, and the
compressor's
in the engine room, could have reached that overheat condition without the
added stress of running the keel cooler out of the water. We'll never
know,
as I don't care to attempt to duplicate the circumstances; once bitten,
twice $hy, so to speak, and we'll be very different in our new
installation.

I have to say, however, that until I stuck my foot in it, the system was a
real pleasure. But perhaps my egregious error can be avoided by others in
the future. To be sure, while I didn't see the caution at the time,
Frigoboat makes it clear you should not run the system out of the water
without - at a minimum - having water running over the keel cooler.
However, there was no mention of the actual consequences. For a techie
(well, interested in everything, and moderately able to understand the
physics and realities), that information would have been orders of
magnitude
more effective to me than "don't do this" - with its implication that it
would simply be inefficient, rather than destructive. Stupidly, because
it
continued to work a treat, I did that for a time, as, all around it, we
were
epoxy fairing, grinding and all that sort of stuff at the time. It can't
have helped, whatever the other instances of high temperatures for the
compressor may have been.

However, in the end, our choice for replacement is a Sea Frost air and
water-cooled (like the air cooler is an option after the fact on Frigoboat
Keel Cooler systems, this will allow, when the Keel Cooler is removed,
installation of another thru-hull for water-cooling as backup or extremely
hot circumstances) system. It solves a problem which would present to
someone retrofitting cold plates and engine-driven systems, that of access
in an already-built box. The evaporator plate which I got (see
http://www.justpickone.org/skip/gall...ze=640&start=0
and onward for what we did initially) couldn't possibly be inserted into
our
current box. Whether we have to cut it up to get it out remains to be
seen.

The Sea Frost system relies on two separate evaporator plates which will
make it through our existing door opening, and are much deeper (courtesy
of
our depth of the box), allowing for the same surface area in a different
configuration, and a different configuration than the troublesome
capillary
tube (Frigoboat's solution) to accomplish the superheat portion of the
cycle. That they are also fully stainless steel is encouraging/reassuring,
in that I can't be ham-handed enough during defrosting to damage them, as
could be the case with the typical aluminum evaporator plate (and which
was
the reason I chose a SS-fronted plate to begin with, despite it being less
efficient than straight aluminum).

I have no reason to expect other than stellar results with our new system.
And my experience should NOT be a reason not to buy a Frigoboat system -
but
it should be a heads-up as to how you treat it, if you do.

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery !
Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog
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When a man comes to like a sea life, he is not fit to live on land.
- Dr. Samuel Johnson

Update Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

On Wed, 2 Jul 2014 08:55:03 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote:

I'll leave the original below for reference, as it's an old thread. It's so
old you might want to skip down to the attribute-marks section ([ "" in
front of each line] to get a basis point, or if you'd not seen it, to get a
clue; the masochists will read the entire referenced thread in CF) before
reading further...

So, in the end, there were 3 11x16 SS clad evaporator plates, in series,
through a constant-pressure control (functioning like an expansion valve),
running through a large evaporator-dryer, with sight glass, to a BD85 air
and water cooled compressor, all from Sea Frost.

The BD85, of course, has a higher capacity than the 50 it replaced, but at a
large cost in electrons. Low speed (there's a controller similar to the SSC
of Frigoboat, with, perhaps, some more smarts, as I don't know the specs of
how Frigoboat's unit manages the speeds, but the specs look impressive)
pulls 6A, the same as high on the 50. Ergo, at low, it should be removing
as much heat as the previous system did at high (watts = amps = BTU
removed).

The Frigoboat system did an admirable job while it was working. I could
take it to an indicated 0° in the freezer (control used box temp), far
colder than I needed, and still have it not running at full speed once the
temp had been reached.

Unfortunately for me, including the addition of the water cooling (another
complexity made unnecessary by the keel cooler in my Frigoboat system) by my
installer, Clay Hansen of Hansen Marine in St. Augustine, the system still
isn't right. As the initial installation had several defective components
(two temperature probes and the constant pressure valve) Clay gave it some
serious tweaking for about a month, while we were off the boat, and declared
it fit. On Christmas Eve 2013, when it wasn't hot, ever, it was working,
and we headed south. But...

It's voracious for electrons, and even at low speed, runs about 80% of the
time to achieve a box temperature in the 10-15° range, controlled by plate
temperature, the probe being at the bottom of the last plate. The
refrigerator, as it's fed from a spillover fan, continues to maintain its
temperatures satisfactorily, but at the cost of the freezer continually
having to run. Sea Frost's computer, if you let it run it (automatic
setting), looks for a 52% run time. Without a great deal more than the 6.5°
hysteresis recommended, there's no way possible to achieve that ratio on the
computer controlled version - and a higher gap would mean much more box temp
variation, something I'd become accustomed to not even thinking about, with
my previous (box temp) hysteresis of 2° - and to do so would be unacceptable
to me in any event.

Worse, after a decommissioning during a month-long trip ashore (I was on a
mooring and didn't dare leave it running), the third plate was only about
half frosted, with the compressor running non-stop, whereas before, it had
been complete, with the frost line ending an inch or so into the plate
before the return line to the constant pressure valve.

The Sea Frost owner, Cleave Horton, in my followups recently, had me fiddle
with the CPV, which resulted in an immediate frosting of not only the plate
but the return line (too much), and subsequent fiddlings have it back to
where it was, with the entire 3rd plate frosted, but the return line not
only very cold but almost frosted. Probably a pretty good place for it.

But that's with my having - at Cleave's strong suggestion - increased the
plate temp for shutoff by 2.5°, to 5°. So, I now have a warmer box, and
still about an 80% run time at low. I can jack up the speed and have it run
for shorter periods, but at a larger amp consumption. My expectation is that
running essentially full time, assuming the temp stays at the level you want
it to be (the function of the smart controller, rather than leaving it on a
given speed), is the most efficient. However, Cleave suggests leaving it at
low full time for the least amps used.

At that rate, based on no-wind nights, and next to nothing else on (2 0.1A
fans and breaker panel overhead), we're averaging 8 amps or higher just for
refrigeration - at night, when it's cooler. I can't support 200AH daily
loads, with added daytime (more heat, more stuff running, boxes being opened
occasionally) loads with my wind and solar unless conditions were absolutely
perfect - all bright sunny days and consistent winds of 15 or higher. The
amp draw is pretty consistent, whether on "automatic" - the equivalent of
the SSC in Frigoboat systems or "low"; we had one night of unexplainable 3A
average, and a couple of 12A average, but otherwise it's been in the 8A or
fractionally higher range overnight; this over more than 3 weeks of
observation.

After several emails back and forth, and several phone conversations, the
best Cleave could come up with was to play with the CPV, and "good luck" for
recommendations. This, despite his own manuals cautioning against lowering
the temps into the double-digit negative zone instead of merely to zero, was
accompanied by the assertion that 8° was way too cold, and that something
closer to the low to mid 20s was ample for freezing. Maybe if you're going
to rotate your stock on a daily basis, but that doesn't ring true for
anything resembling longer storage, let alone whether whatever it was you
wanted hard frozen would melt 5 minutes out of the freezer. As this system
cost, all-in, half more than the comparable (air cooled with keel cooler,
added filter-dryer and full wrap-around evaporator) Frigoboat system in
cost, this is most distressing.

Better yet, the metal screen filter in the water cooling installed (a Groco
WSB-500) started to disintegrate almost immediately, never mind its being
clogged and requiring frequent cleaning. So, for a small time, we ran it
without the water cooling. There was no chance. Temps in the freezer
remained in the mid to high 20s despite the system running full time.
Likely I'll replace the metal one with plastic, assuming I can source it
(how many times does a filter media fail?? - not much in the way of stocking
dealers), but it's just another annoyance. In the meantime, we're running
the pump, as we have a dome filter on the exterior, left over from when this
boat had air conditioning, and Cleave assures me that if it can't get
through that, the pump will happily move it along. Update since I drafted
this; I got new plastic filter media from Groco - a much larger mesh - and
sure enough, the flow improved greatly. Without the water cooling, our
system doesn't stand a chance in S. FL; it MIGHT be ok with air alone in
cold water and cool temps. However, here in Vero Beach, this last time we
took it off (only a few days' worth of running) to swap out the media, there
were 3 small barnacles on the housing. If those get into the cooling pipes,
we're dead. Obviously, whatever it is that barnacles start out as can fit
through the dome filter outside; I'm not sure that the plastic media is much
smaller. There isn't much dead time (no pump running) for these guys to get
a foothold, so I'm not optimistic. Does that mean I'll soon see a
degradation in my cooling water output even with a clear filter media???

I have no idea, at this point, whether the Carel thermostat I took out (his
electronic control has a Carel incorporated) was accurate, but I'd had it
set at 8° with a 2-degree hysteresis; it maintained it easily. This box
shows temps radically above that - the probe is near where the other was -
but shooting it with an infrared thermometer shows it to actually be about
10° at the spillover near the fan, and other temps much lower. E.g., bread
closest to the spillover 5°, hamburger package top near the plate 0°,
chicken package vertical to the plate -3°, and so on, with all three plates
well under 0°. So, regardless of the calibration, including that I've now
upped the plate shutoff to 6°, it's pretty cold in there, and the reefer
does (a good thing; it's been cold enough in the past to do it solely by
convection) occasionally have to use the spillover fan. I have yet to put
ice cream in there, but I suspect it would be OK. But still, it's an energy
hog.

If there had been any way short of pulling the boat (for a new keel cooler)
and destroying the galley (to get a new evaporator into the freezer), I
think I would have been much happier with a Frigoboat keel and air cooled
(air for when on shore, per Rob, Frigoboat's distributor in the US)
evaporator system, but also to move more air over the compressor),
protected - by the addition of a filter-dryer - from years-away refrigerant
oil contamination, allowing the capillary tube system to do its work. As it
is, the solution seems to be that I MUST run our Honda genset, every day,
for a full tank, about another ~$150/month, to keep up with the load. It
wouldn't take very long before even ditching and replacing the system every
5 years or so, including the necessary haulout, would be more cost efficient
than what I have now - if it were possible to replace the evaporator without
having to start over in the galley.

Finally, to forestall questions about the box itself, it's 6" of extruded
polystyrene, encased in epoxy, with radiation and conduction barriers
outside (aluminum foil and doorskin furring strips to give an air gap).
Both doors are double-gasketed, and, after much fiddling, I'm confident that
the gaskets are efficient. The boxes are, respectively - 16.25"D, 24.5"H
and 14.75/28.5"W - 3.4 and 6.56 CF respectively.

====

We've been through several iterations of freezers on our trawler,
starting with a water cooled holding plate system, progressing to a
pair of Engel dual voltage air cooled units, and most recently an
Igloo home style 110 volt air cooled unit that we got from Home Depot.
The Igloo home style freezer easily maintains zero degrees with fairly
reasonable current draw from the inverter. It has a large capacity
of about 7 cubic feet and only cost about $300 brand new, actually
free since I got it with Amex reward points. The big problem on a
sailboat would be placement since it is counter top high, 2 feet deep
and about 3 feet long. We installed ours on the flybridge with a
custom canvas cover that blends in fairly well with the rest of the
decor.

Update Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

On Wed, 02 Jul 2014 11:42:24 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

We've been through several iterations of freezers on our trawler,
starting with a water cooled holding plate system, progressing to a
pair of Engel dual voltage air cooled units, and most recently an
Igloo home style 110 volt air cooled unit that we got from Home Depot.
The Igloo home style freezer easily maintains zero degrees with fairly
reasonable current draw from the inverter. It has a large capacity
of about 7 cubic feet and only cost about $300 brand new, actually
free since I got it with Amex reward points. The big problem on a
sailboat would be placement since it is counter top high, 2 feet deep
and about 3 feet long. We installed ours on the flybridge with a
custom canvas cover that blends in fairly well with the rest of the
decor.

Have you ever considered the inefficiencies involved with
inverting 12VCD to 120VAC? You tend to throw away 5-10%
depending upon various variables.

If I had your money and huge motor vessel I would install
a propane freezer as they tend to be far more efficient

-and reliable-

than their electrical brethren which electricity is usually
derived from burning the more expensive gasoline or diesel
fuel in generators.

--
Sir Gregory

Update Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

On Wed, 02 Jul 2014 14:52:02 -0400, "Sir Gregory Hall, Esq."
wrote:

On Wed, 02 Jul 2014 11:42:24 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

We've been through several iterations of freezers on our trawler,
starting with a water cooled holding plate system, progressing to a
pair of Engel dual voltage air cooled units, and most recently an
Igloo home style 110 volt air cooled unit that we got from Home Depot.
The Igloo home style freezer easily maintains zero degrees with fairly
reasonable current draw from the inverter. It has a large capacity
of about 7 cubic feet and only cost about $300 brand new, actually
free since I got it with Amex reward points. The big problem on a
sailboat would be placement since it is counter top high, 2 feet deep
and about 3 feet long. We installed ours on the flybridge with a
custom canvas cover that blends in fairly well with the rest of the
decor.

Have you ever considered the inefficiencies involved with
inverting 12VCD to 120VAC? You tend to throw away 5-10%
depending upon various variables.

If I had your money and huge motor vessel I would install
a propane freezer as they tend to be far more efficient

-and reliable-

than their electrical brethren which electricity is usually
derived from burning the more expensive gasoline or diesel
fuel in generators.

===

The inefficiencies of converting 12 volts to 110 are more than
compensated by the quietness of not running the generator
continuously. The lifespan of the generator is also greatly
increased and we are not tied to a dock with shorepower like most
motor yachts in our size range. The diesel fuel that the generator
does use for battery charging is a drop in the bucket compared to the
main engines, and when we are underway the engine alternators keep the
inverter batts charged at almost no cost at all. For boats that
already have propane for cooking there may be some advantages to also
using it for refrigeration but I prefer to have no propane on the boat
for safety reasons. I also like the convenience of having a single
fuel boat. Down in the Caribbean people from the US are always
juggling propane adapters to use the European butane fittings that are
commonly available.

Update Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

On Wed, 02 Jul 2014 17:16:27 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

The inefficiencies of converting 12 volts to 110 are more than
compensated by the quietness of not running the generator
continuously. The lifespan of the generator is also greatly
increased and we are not tied to a dock with shorepower like most
motor yachts in our size range. The diesel fuel that the generator
does use for battery charging is a drop in the bucket compared to the
main engines, and when we are underway the engine alternators keep the
inverter batts charged at almost no cost at all. For boats that
already have propane for cooking there may be some advantages to also
using it for refrigeration but I prefer to have no propane on the boat
for safety reasons. I also like the convenience of having a single
fuel boat. Down in the Caribbean people from the US are always
juggling propane adapters to use the European butane fittings that are
commonly available.

What's the price of diesel *down island*? I've heard it isn't
cheap. I've heard some places it might be around ten bucks a
gallon. Propane, on the other hand, is generally much cheaper
than that per BTU equivalent

FYI, you don't get something for nothing. It might seem like the
alternators charging a low battery bank don't cause the main
engines to burn much more diesel but they do.

As for being quiet and not running a dedicated generator that's
a good thing but when using propane to refrigerate there is no
noise at all, ever. No fumes either from a generator or the
main engines charging up a battery bank so an inverter can do
its thing and thus waste about 10% of the energy.

Don't most diesel generators such as a typical 8KW version produce
alternating current? If so, think what you do when generating using
it. It generates 120VAC which is then transformed to 12volt DC via
a battery charger to charge the batteries (10% loss). Then you turn
around and invert it back to 120VAC to run the freezer (another 10%
loss). Sounds very inefficient to me.

Also, if you have a freezer full of frozen meat, for example, it
could be worth a thousand dollars or more at today's prices. Your
generator or main engines could break down and you just lost your
meat. An adequate supply of propane will forestall that eventuality.

--
Sir Gregory

Update Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

On Wed, 02 Jul 2014 19:58:42 -0400, "Sir Gregory Hall, Esq."
wrote:

On Wed, 02 Jul 2014 17:16:27 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

The inefficiencies of converting 12 volts to 110 are more than
compensated by the quietness of not running the generator
continuously. The lifespan of the generator is also greatly
increased and we are not tied to a dock with shorepower like most
motor yachts in our size range. The diesel fuel that the generator
does use for battery charging is a drop in the bucket compared to the
main engines, and when we are underway the engine alternators keep the
inverter batts charged at almost no cost at all. For boats that
already have propane for cooking there may be some advantages to also
using it for refrigeration but I prefer to have no propane on the boat
for safety reasons. I also like the convenience of having a single
fuel boat. Down in the Caribbean people from the US are always
juggling propane adapters to use the European butane fittings that are
commonly available.

What's the price of diesel *down island*? I've heard it isn't
cheap. I've heard some places it might be around ten bucks a
gallon. Propane, on the other hand, is generally much cheaper
than that per BTU equivalent

FYI, you don't get something for nothing. It might seem like the
alternators charging a low battery bank don't cause the main
engines to burn much more diesel but they do.

As for being quiet and not running a dedicated generator that's
a good thing but when using propane to refrigerate there is no
noise at all, ever. No fumes either from a generator or the
main engines charging up a battery bank so an inverter can do
its thing and thus waste about 10% of the energy.

Don't most diesel generators such as a typical 8KW version produce
alternating current? If so, think what you do when generating using
it. It generates 120VAC which is then transformed to 12volt DC via
a battery charger to charge the batteries (10% loss). Then you turn
around and invert it back to 120VAC to run the freezer (another 10%
loss). Sounds very inefficient to me.

Also, if you have a freezer full of frozen meat, for example, it
could be worth a thousand dollars or more at today's prices. Your
generator or main engines could break down and you just lost your
meat. An adequate supply of propane will forestall that eventuality.

I believe that the "propane fridge" that you are talking about is the
same sort of thing as the old "kerosene fridges" that use heat to
work. If so isn't there a pilot light down in the bottom that is on
all the time.

If that is what you are referring to I saw one in a 50 ft boat in
Malaysia once. The guy that owned the boat was changing out an old one
and replacing it with another. It seems to me that he said that the
fridge needed to be gimbaled to keep it as vertical as possible other
wise the flame wasn't directed to the correct place.

A lot of guys standing on the dock and making comments but he said
that he'd had the old one for a number of years with no difficulties,
other worrying about whether he had enough LPG to last till he got to
a place to buy more.

--
Cheers,

Bruce in Bangkok

Update Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 19:53:15 -0400, "Sir Gregory Hall, Esq."
wrote:

I'm not concerned at all about fires or explosions.

===

No one ever is until they have seen it happen.

Update Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

On Friday, November 8, 2013 at 1:27:20 PM UTC-8, Flying Pig wrote:
" Sir Gregory Hall, Esqï¿½" ï¿½ke wrote in message
...
"Flying Pig" wrote in message
...
I'm leaving out the various conversations from contributors just to not
get in a ****ing match :{))

Richard Kollmann, a reasonably respected marine refrigeration guy, has
been playing this tune for quite a while.

The overheat function is supposed to be in the controller which, if IT'S
cool enough, won't do anything. If the outgoing gas (with minute traces
of oil in it, of course) gets hot enough (as apparently it did, based on
my having to replace an o-ring on the high pressure connector), it
doesn't have to be in the compressor to change state, either. So, unless
whomever your builder is had put in a sensor IN/ON the compressor, an
overheat might well be missed.

Well, that sure is a defective engineering design. It's a simple
matter to place a thermostat in or on the condenser which, when
it reaches a preset critical temperature, switches the unit off.

An overheat failsafe that's elsewhere is African engineering at best.

Frigoboat should be ashamed of such an inferior design.

--
Sir Gregory

Kollmann has several areas of design complaint about the Frigoboat system....

L8R

Skip

--
Kollmann has several areas where he doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. He has books full of mis-information and half-truths. Take what he says with a lot of salt....

Frigoboat - The Smoking Gun (or compressor)

MMCBRIDDE said:

"Kollmann has several areas where he doesn't know his ass from a hole in the
ground. He has books full of mis-information and half-truths. Take what he
says with a lot of salt...."

Thanks for the heads up. I see you sell many brands of systems; apparently
you have followed my saga of the Frigoboat failure, as well.

So, would you mind illustrating where it is that RK was wrong, or
misinforming, in my case?

Or was this a general warning for the remaining 3 people who read this
newsgroup (Neal harassers excepted)?

FWIW, I'm finally coming to terms with the voracious appetite for electrons
in the new SeaFrost air and water cooled system (which works perfectly - but
with air and water near 80, averages 7A - that is over extended periods -
e.g. 8 hours, 56AH consumption). The colder it gets, the better (less
average amps) that number is.

It's a dream to defrost by comparison to my SS-fronted,
largest-evaporator-plate-Frigoboat-offers previous - but uses something on
the order of 50-100% more electrons, particularly since the compressor is in
the engine room; with a keel cooler, it's of no consequence; with air (never
run the engine, and have it never above 70, it does well) and water needed
to cool the SeaFrost, not so much...

L8R

Skip

Morgan 461 #2
SV Flying Pig KI4MPC
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