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Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to
Brunswick GA Our RS125 GPS is no longer communicating with any of our instruments. We are trying to work through the Raymarine forum, to little effect, to troubleshoot this device. If you have a pole, rail, or other accessible-mount (all you have to do is twist to remove) RS125, I'd love to be able to bring my unit to your boat to see if it works. Replacing yours with ours and lighting up your gear would define whether our problem was in the sensor or elsewhere - and we've not had any success in defining as bad an "elsewhere" in our system. If you do, and you'd be willing, drop me a line Thanks! L8R Skip, still trapped in St. Marys GA Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog When a man comes to like a sea life, he is not fit to live on land. - Dr. Samuel Johnson |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
"Flying Pig" wrote in message
... Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA Our RS125 GPS is no longer communicating with any of our instruments. We are trying to work through the Raymarine forum, to little effect, to troubleshoot this device. If you have a pole, rail, or other accessible-mount (all you have to do is twist to remove) RS125, I'd love to be able to bring my unit to your boat to see if it works. Replacing yours with ours and lighting up your gear would define whether our problem was in the sensor or elsewhere - and we've not had any success in defining as bad an "elsewhere" in our system. What communication interface does it use? The usual NMEA 0183? If so you could hook it up to a laptop that has that connector and see if the laptop receives any output from it. I suspect your NMEA 0183 com port has failed. Might even be a software failure and not a hardware failure. Have you upgraded the instrument's O/S lately. If so roll it back to see if the com port works again. -- Sir Gregory |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
----- Original Message -----
From: " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·" åke Newsgroups: rec.boats.cruising Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 2:38 PM Subject: Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA What communication interface does it use? The usual NMEA 0183? If so you could hook it up to a laptop that has that connector and see if the laptop receives any output from it. I suspect your NMEA 0183 com port has failed. Might even be a software failure and not a hardware failure. Have you upgraded the instrument's O/S lately. If so roll it back to see if the com port works again. -- Sir Gregory Hi, Neal, The unit is either SeaTalk or NMEA capable. It's connected to NMEA because my prior setup was, and it became plug-n-play for all the instruments and my computer's serial connection by attaching to the plotter's NMEA cable. There's no SW to this unit; it used to talk to my plotter, autopilot, and computer; now it speaks to none of them. I pinned out the connections between the GPS and NMEA (to the plotter, thence onward) cables and all is as it should be between those points, but no talking to the plotter. There have been no changes to SW or hardware in years. The "no fix" message happened on the way back from a sailing trip with my son and his family a few weeks ago, and I've been wrestling with this ever since. L8R Skip Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog When a man comes to like a sea life, he is not fit to live on land. - Dr. Samuel Johnson |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
"Flying Pig" wrote in message
... ----- Original Message ----- From: " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·" åke Newsgroups: rec.boats.cruising Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 2:38 PM Subject: Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA What communication interface does it use? The usual NMEA 0183? If so you could hook it up to a laptop that has that connector and see if the laptop receives any output from it. I suspect your NMEA 0183 com port has failed. Might even be a software failure and not a hardware failure. Have you upgraded the instrument's O/S lately. If so roll it back to see if the com port works again. -- Sir Gregory Hi, Neal, The unit is either SeaTalk or NMEA capable. It's connected to NMEA because my prior setup was, and it became plug-n-play for all the instruments and my computer's serial connection by attaching to the plotter's NMEA cable. There's no SW to this unit; it used to talk to my plotter, autopilot, and computer; now it speaks to none of them. I pinned out the connections between the GPS and NMEA (to the plotter, thence onward) cables and all is as it should be between those points, but no talking to the plotter. There have been no changes to SW or hardware in years. The "no fix" message happened on the way back from a sailing trip with my son and his family a few weeks ago, and I've been wrestling with this ever since. Sounds like you have two problems. "No fix" usually means the unit can't find the satellites enough to get a position. This shouldn't affect the com port. But, perhaps the com port sends nothing until a fix is obtained? Many GPS units work that way. In lieu of sending bad info they send no info. If so I would examine your GPS antenna and connections. A friend of mine had a similar problem with a Garmin unit and it tuned out to be the external antenna had failed where the co-ax cable entered. Seems salt water corrosion got to it. Unfortunately it was not a screw connector but hard-wired. So he bought a new antenna and it cured the problem. -- Sir Gregory |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
" Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·" åke wrote in message
... Sounds like you have two problems. "No fix" usually means the unit can't find the satellites enough to get a position. This shouldn't affect the com port. But, perhaps the com port sends nothing until a fix is obtained? Many GPS units work that way. In lieu of sending bad info they send no info. If so I would examine your GPS antenna and connections. A friend of mine had a similar problem with a Garmin unit and it tuned out to be the external antenna had failed where the co-ax cable entered. Seems salt water corrosion got to it. Unfortunately it was not a screw connector but hard-wired. So he bought a new antenna and it cured the problem. -- Sir Gregory I actually misspoke. "Lost fix" is more like it. The sensor, despite it blinking in a format which Raymarine says has it with acquired satellites, and communicating over NMEA, isn't talking to any of my gear; it quit about 10 minutes from the dock, and hasn't been in communication since. It seems like it must be a wiring issue, though there's nothing whatsoever to suggest it should be that way; nothing dramatic happened which might explain an electrical difference. Worse, at least as far as the GPS-NMEA-plotter cable is concerned, it pins out and should be working. Anyway, if there is anyone who responds to this (also out in all the mailing lists and forums I'm on), we can confirm the sensor itself but swapping for a known good installation. L8R Skip -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog When a man comes to like a sea life, he is not fit to live on land. - Dr. Samuel Johnson |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
We believe that the unit has bitten the dust - or there's some problem which
makes it intermittent. Yesterday, doing some other debugging suggested by RM, I had an instance of it running NMEA sentences in and out, as seen in the diagnostics screen on my plotter. However, by the time I'd gotten downstairs and into Terminal to see if it was echoing down there, I had an alarm saying I'd lost position in the plotter, and data stopped flowing. It refused to reaquire satellites, something it's never done in our viewing of it (green blink) so far, and took a long time to acquire after yet another power cycle. However, that acquisition didn't lead to any input on the diagnostics, nor reception in Terminal below. Sounds like it's dead... But I'd still love to pop it onto someone else' setup for confirmation. I've got RM's suggested replacement, a GPS105 from Digital Yacht (bought through Bethel Marine in FL, great folks to work with), on the way for tomorrow arrival. That will involve rewiring (well, making new connections to) the NMEA inputs to the plotter and onward to the computer/autopilot, but that's trivial. L8R, y'all Skip -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog When a man comes to like a sea life, he is not fit to live on land. - Dr. Samuel Johnson "Flying Pig" wrote in message ... Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA Our RS125 GPS is no longer communicating with any of our instruments. We are trying to work through the Raymarine forum, to little effect, to troubleshoot this device. If you have a pole, rail, or other accessible-mount (all you have to do is twist to remove) RS125, I'd love to be able to bring my unit to your boat to see if it works. Replacing yours with ours and lighting up your gear would define whether our problem was in the sensor or elsewhere - and we've not had any success in defining as bad an "elsewhere" in our system. If you do, and you'd be willing, drop me a line Thanks! L8R Skip, still trapped in St. Marys GA Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog When a man comes to like a sea life, he is not fit to live on land. - Dr. Samuel Johnson |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 11:11:46 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote: It refused to reaquire satellites, something it's never done in our viewing of it (green blink) so far, and took a long time to acquire after yet another power cycle. However, that acquisition didn't lead to any input on the diagnostics, nor reception in Terminal below. Sounds like it's dead... === Most GPS antennas these days, the ones that look like white mushrooms, have all of the satellite circuitry built into the antenna assembly. They receive power through the cable and transmit NMEA183 sentences back to the plotter. I strongly suspect that your GPS antenna unit or the cable or the connector has failed. |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 11:11:46 -0400, "Flying Pig"
wrote: We believe that the unit has bitten the dust - or there's some problem which makes it intermittent. Yesterday, doing some other debugging suggested by RM, I had an instance of it running NMEA sentences in and out, as seen in the diagnostics screen on my plotter. However, by the time I'd gotten downstairs and into Terminal to see if it was echoing down there, I had an alarm saying I'd lost position in the plotter, and data stopped flowing. It refused to reaquire satellites, something it's never done in our viewing of it (green blink) so far, and took a long time to acquire after yet another power cycle. However, that acquisition didn't lead to any input on the diagnostics, nor reception in Terminal below. Sounds like it's dead... But I'd still love to pop it onto someone else' setup for confirmation. I've got RM's suggested replacement, a GPS105 from Digital Yacht (bought through Bethel Marine in FL, great folks to work with), on the way for tomorrow arrival. That will involve rewiring (well, making new connections to) the NMEA inputs to the plotter and onward to the computer/autopilot, but that's trivial. L8R, y'all Skip Skip, I wonder whether you have given any consideration to what happens if you are at sea and your gps system dies. Perhaps a small gps that reads lat. and Lon. and a large scale chart might be a useful thing to have if all else fails. -- Cheers, Bruce in Bangkok |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
"Bruce in bangkok" wrote in message
... Skip, I wonder whether you have given any consideration to what happens if you are at sea and your gps system dies. Perhaps a small gps that reads lat. and Lon. and a large scale chart might be a useful thing to have if all else fails. -- Cheers, Bruce in Bangkok Hi, We have a handheld Garmin eTrex Venture with a serial cord, and the ubiquitous usb (prolific usb-to-serial) puck and both work on the computer(s in the case of the puck - the laptop doesn't have any serial ports). We always use paper charts as well as electronic (in whatever form) and could easily (well, tediously easy) mark our locations as we went. Indeed, that's what we did when we bought the boat in FTL and moved it to St. Petersburg, around Key West, with an ancient Garmin 75. So, we're set up for that. Today, as long as I have to cut them anyway, I'm going to remake the connections on the current RS125, JUST in case there's an issue there. That it doesn't talk to our downstairs computer serial AS WELL AS our chartplotter suggests that it's the sensor; failure to acquire, then acquistion and sudden comms followed by failure, and another acquistion without comms amplifies the deduction. Indeed, in my reading (beyond the RM recommendation) I found that these (and the sister 120s) units seem to be failing at a great rate. Since there are many who used them in non-RM applications (so SeaTalk wasn't of use), as RM didn't want to make a replacement, they've referred folks off to where I got mine (well, to the unit, not the vendor - but, FYI, it's Bethel Marine, in FL, with great prices and a great attitude to boot) - which I think is very good customer service. Best, it's about half or less than the RS125, wherever you can find NOS, and way less than I paid in an open-box eBay purchase several years ago. Thanks for the concern. L8R Skip -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog When a man comes to like a sea life, he is not fit to live on land. - Dr. Samuel Johnson |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
... On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 11:11:46 -0400, "Flying Pig" wrote: It refused to reaquire satellites, something it's never done in our viewing of it (green blink) so far, and took a long time to acquire after yet another power cycle. However, that acquisition didn't lead to any input on the diagnostics, nor reception in Terminal below. Sounds like it's dead... === Most GPS antennas these days, the ones that look like white mushrooms, have all of the satellite circuitry built into the antenna assembly. They receive power through the cable and transmit NMEA183 sentences back to the plotter. I strongly suspect that your GPS antenna unit or the cable or the connector has failed. Copy cat!!! |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 11:34:09 +0700, Bruce in bangkok wrote:
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 11:11:46 -0400, "Flying Pig" wrote: We believe that the unit has bitten the dust - or there's some problem which makes it intermittent. Yesterday, doing some other debugging suggested by RM, I had an instance of it running NMEA sentences in and out, as seen in the diagnostics screen on my plotter. However, by the time I'd gotten downstairs and into Terminal to see if it was echoing down there, I had an alarm saying I'd lost position in the plotter, and data stopped flowing. It refused to reaquire satellites, something it's never done in our viewing of it (green blink) so far, and took a long time to acquire after yet another power cycle. However, that acquisition didn't lead to any input on the diagnostics, nor reception in Terminal below. Sounds like it's dead... I've been observing a number of high end garmin chart plotters freezing while I'm out on the ocean. A power cycle seams to fix it.. As for the Nema problems.. A little(salt) water inside the nema connector chain will screw up the communications.. Open them up, inspect them for corrosion, clean them using 95% isopropyl alcohol, let them dry before re-assembly. Note: Add a little silicone grease to o-rings and threads during re-assembly. But I'd still love to pop it onto someone else' setup for confirmation. I've got RM's suggested replacement, a GPS105 from Digital Yacht (bought through Bethel Marine in FL, great folks to work with), on the way for tomorrow arrival. That will involve rewiring (well, making new connections to) the NMEA inputs to the plotter and onward to the computer/autopilot, but that's trivial. L8R, y'all Skip Skip, I wonder whether you have given any consideration to what happens if you are at sea and your gps system dies. Perhaps a small gps that reads lat. and Lon. and a large scale chart might be a useful thing to have if all else fails. Before you set sail .. add a chart plotter app to your smart phone.. (They all have built in gps receivers.) |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina BeachFL to Brunswick GA
On 9/2/2013 2:52 AM, T. Keating wrote:
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 11:34:09 +0700, Bruce in bangkok wrote: Before you set sail .. add a chart plotter app to your smart phone.. (They all have built in gps receivers.) Really? An iPhone or Galaxy can display GPS data when out of range of a cell tower? |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 07:36:12 -0600, slide wrote:
On 9/2/2013 2:52 AM, T. Keating wrote: On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 11:34:09 +0700, Bruce in bangkok wrote: Before you set sail .. add a chart plotter app to your smart phone.. (They all have built in gps receivers.) Really? An iPhone or Galaxy can display GPS data when out of range of a cell tower? Of course they can... They just can't download any maps.. |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
"T. Keating" wrote in message
... I've been observing a number of high end garmin chart plotters freezing while I'm out on the ocean. A power cycle seams to fix it.. As for the Nema problems.. A little(salt) water inside the nema connector chain will screw up the communications.. Open them up, inspect them for corrosion, clean them using 95% isopropyl alcohol, let them dry before re-assembly. Note: Add a little silicone grease to o-rings and threads during re-assembly. Hi, I wired up to see (as it should) if my computer (no plotter) would see traffic. It didn't. Then I did the same for my new one - and it worked fine, still no plotter, but with the plotter leads installed. So, I connected the plotter through the NMEA plug, and all is well. However it was, the RS125 was not putting out the required voltage - instead of 3.5-5V cycling, it was 2-3V cycling. In any event, it's done, with the new one - which from a cold start (first time, no prior connections) took 31 seconds to acquire the satellites; it started transmitting (empty) data immediately, as seen on my hyperterminal, then added the right coordinates - working just fine. Still interested in having someone else' working system to put mine in to confirm dead before I toss it (or offer it and the cable for free)... L8R Skip -- Morgan 461 #2 SV Flying Pig KI4MPC See our galleries at www.justpickone.org/skip/gallery ! Follow us at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheFlyingPigLog and/or http://groups.google.com/group/flyingpiglog When a man comes to like a sea life, he is not fit to live on land. - Dr. Samuel Johnson |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
"Flying Pig" wrote in message
... Still interested in having someone else' working system to put mine in to confirm dead before I toss it (or offer it and the cable for free)... Simplify your cluttered life which plants you firmly ashore - - - TOSS IT! You will feel good about doing so. -- Sir Gregory |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 07:36:12 -0600, slide wrote:
An iPhone or Galaxy can display GPS data when out of range of a cell tower? === Absolutely, right in mid-ocean. Most smart phones have a built in GPS receiver these days, and there are some very decent charting packages available. For about $25 to Navionics I have a full set of US and Caribbean charts on my Galaxy along with a fairly decent little plotting application. You don't even need a cell phone account to do all that, a WiFi connection will suffice. |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 13:05:32 -0400, T. Keating
wrote: Really? An iPhone or Galaxy can display GPS data when out of range of a cell tower? Of course they can... They just can't download any maps.. === Not true. See my previous post re Navionics chart apps. |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
... On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 07:36:12 -0600, slide wrote: An iPhone or Galaxy can display GPS data when out of range of a cell tower? === Absolutely, right in mid-ocean. Most smart phones have a built in GPS receiver these days, and there are some very decent charting packages available. For about $25 to Navionics I have a full set of US and Caribbean charts on my Galaxy along with a fairly decent little plotting application. You don't even need a cell phone account to do all that, a WiFi connection will suffice. I got ripped off, then. I just bought a Navionics Gold US and N Bahamas (no Caribbean charts) on a little SD/microSD card for my Lowrance iFinder H20 hand-held chart plotter and it cost over a hundred bucks. But, I'm sure the Navionics Gold SD charts are way more detailed than what Navionics offers for that Samsung cell phone. Not to mention the plotting function on the Lowrance is probably way superior to some cheapo cell phone plotter. I often marvel at how some people operate fifty-foot motor yachts worth a million bucks and hanging off the bow is a 30 pound SS Danforth - in other words, all show and no function. So why does somebody with half a million dollars worth of motor yacht justify using a cell phone for navigation?? -- Sir Gregory |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 18:24:27 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote: On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 13:05:32 -0400, T. Keating wrote: Really? An iPhone or Galaxy can display GPS data when out of range of a cell tower? Of course they can... They just can't download any maps.. === Not true. See my previous post re Navionics chart apps. Please post a reference to your post that you reference above. I ask as I am using an android phone and it seems to be able to receive and post GPS signals directly from the satellites. I am using an application called "OsmAnd" that has the ability to download and store charts on the phone. -- Cheers, Bruce in Bangkok |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
On Mon, 2 Sep 2013 18:47:00 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·"
åke wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 07:36:12 -0600, slide wrote: An iPhone or Galaxy can display GPS data when out of range of a cell tower? === Absolutely, right in mid-ocean. Most smart phones have a built in GPS receiver these days, and there are some very decent charting packages available. For about $25 to Navionics I have a full set of US and Caribbean charts on my Galaxy along with a fairly decent little plotting application. You don't even need a cell phone account to do all that, a WiFi connection will suffice. I got ripped off, then. I just bought a Navionics Gold US and N Bahamas (no Caribbean charts) on a little SD/microSD card for my Lowrance iFinder H20 hand-held chart plotter and it cost over a hundred bucks. But, I'm sure the Navionics Gold SD charts are way more detailed than what Navionics offers for that Samsung cell phone. Not to mention the plotting function on the Lowrance is probably way superior to some cheapo cell phone plotter. I often marvel at how some people operate fifty-foot motor yachts worth a million bucks and hanging off the bow is a 30 pound SS Danforth - in other words, all show and no function. So why does somebody with half a million dollars worth of motor yacht justify using a cell phone for navigation?? But Gregory, a 30 lb. danforth will hold a boat perfectly well. It depends on the anchorage and the weather and water. -- Cheers, Bruce in Bangkok |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
On Tue, 03 Sep 2013 07:20:57 +0700, Bruce in bangkok
wrote: Please post a reference to your post that you reference above. I ask as I am using an android phone and it seems to be able to receive and post GPS signals directly from the satellites. I am using an application called "OsmAnd" that has the ability to download and store charts on the phone. === Bruce, not sure if you are replying to me or not. If you're interested in the Navionics charts and apps, they are on the Google store. The GPS definitely works directly from the satellites contrary to what someone else posted. |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
On Mon, 2 Sep 2013 18:47:00 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·"
åke wrote: I often marvel at how some people operate fifty-foot motor yachts worth a million bucks and hanging off the bow is a 30 pound SS Danforth - in other words, all show and no function. So why does somebody with half a million dollars worth of motor yacht justify using a cell phone for navigation?? === I don't think anyone does that. I sometimes use mine in the dinghy (protected by a zip lock bag), and it is also one of my numerous back up devices. The charts are surprisingly decent, and although not as good as my Furuno/C-map, they are a small fraction of the cost. As an FYI, we use a 88 pound Rocna on all chain. Great anchor. |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
On Tue, 03 Sep 2013 07:26:09 +0700, Bruce in bangkok
wrote: But Gregory, a 30 lb. danforth will hold a boat perfectly well. It depends on the anchorage and the weather and water. === We have used a 30 lb Danforth as a day anchor in some pretty severe conditions. With enough scope and a good bottom it holds our 70,000 pound trawler just fine (30 kt winds, exposed anchorage with 3 to 5 ft seas). |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 20:39:04 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote: On Tue, 03 Sep 2013 07:20:57 +0700, Bruce in bangkok wrote: Please post a reference to your post that you reference above. I ask as I am using an android phone and it seems to be able to receive and post GPS signals directly from the satellites. I am using an application called "OsmAnd" that has the ability to download and store charts on the phone. === Bruce, not sure if you are replying to me or not. If you're interested in the Navionics charts and apps, they are on the Google store. The GPS definitely works directly from the satellites contrary to what someone else posted. Well, I was replying to you but apparently I was a bit mixed up with who said what :-) -- Cheers, Bruce in Bangkok |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
... On Tue, 03 Sep 2013 07:26:09 +0700, Bruce in bangkok wrote: But Gregory, a 30 lb. danforth will hold a boat perfectly well. It depends on the anchorage and the weather and water. === We have used a 30 lb Danforth as a day anchor in some pretty severe conditions. With enough scope and a good bottom it holds our 70,000 pound trawler just fine (30 kt winds, exposed anchorage with 3 to 5 ft seas). LOL! There's a man confident in his luck! Myself, I'd rather rely on using an anchor that is appropriate for the heft and windage of the vessel. For a 70,000 pound trawler, a 45-pounder would be the absolute minimum. Even so, I'd be sure to use two of them Bahamian-style so I could feel secure through most any normal weather. (Not talking tropical storms here!) Tell me, please, do you set an anchor alarm on your GPS? I bet you do? If so, then that pretty much negates your feigned confidence in your undersized day anchor. And, besides, a so-called day anchor is a rude operation. You said yourself that you put out lots of length (scope). If the water is 20 feet deep that means you put out at least 7:1 scope or close to 150 feet. That means you swing a very large circle and might get too close to those who use a larger anchor and more conservative scope. Unless it's all chain, that also means possible chaffing snagging and abrasion on coral heads and sharp rocks. And you stink-potters wonder why we sailing seaman don't want much of anything to do with you? I wonder why? -- Sir Gregory -- Sir Gregory |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
... On Mon, 2 Sep 2013 18:47:00 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·" åke wrote: I often marvel at how some people operate fifty-foot motor yachts worth a million bucks and hanging off the bow is a 30 pound SS Danforth - in other words, all show and no function. So why does somebody with half a million dollars worth of motor yacht justify using a cell phone for navigation?? === I don't think anyone does that. I sometimes use mine in the dinghy (protected by a zip lock bag), and it is also one of my numerous back up devices. The charts are surprisingly decent, and although not as good as my Furuno/C-map, they are a small fraction of the cost. As an FYI, we use a 88 pound Rocna on all chain. Great anchor. That's MUCH better! But, you would be the exception, rather than the rule when it comes to stink potters. Honestly, some large powerboats (fifty-foot range) with a lot of windage arrive in my home anchorage from time to time and not a few of them drop a polished SS plough or chromed Danforth-style that weighs all of 30 pounds. Then they commence to drag in even normal winds of 15-20 knots. Then they try again, and again, and again. Do they even notice the 50 pounds of grass and mud clogging their anchors - apparently not.Then they try backing down on it as if that's going to give them different results. It takes them sometimes an hour or so of futility before they finally give up and go elsewhere. Such ineptitude is generally a function of the stink potters. A sailboat will arrive and they generally have anchors as large or even larger than they need for the size of their boat and they seem to have much greater success and hold well until a severe thunderstorm with 60kt winds happens to blow in and then they are on their way downwind frantically trying to get things back under control. -- Sir Gregory -- Sir Gregory |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
On Tue, 3 Sep 2013 16:32:57 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·"
åke wrote: But Gregory, a 30 lb. danforth will hold a boat perfectly well. It depends on the anchorage and the weather and water. === We have used a 30 lb Danforth as a day anchor in some pretty severe conditions. With enough scope and a good bottom it holds our 70,000 pound trawler just fine (30 kt winds, exposed anchorage with 3 to 5 ft seas). LOL! There's a man confident in his luck! Myself, I'd rather rely on using an anchor that is appropriate for the heft and windage of the vessel. We would also but were doing race committee duty at Key West Race Week at the time and rapid anchor retrieval was a requirement. I was surprised at how well the Danforth held out there in Hawk Channel on a *very* windy day. For a 70,000 pound trawler, a 45-pounder would be the absolute minimum. Even so, I'd be sure to use two of them Bahamian-style so I could feel secure through most any normal weather. (Not talking tropical storms here!) Tell me, please, do you set an anchor alarm on your GPS? Absolutely not. We back down hard with a pair of 30 inch, 4 bladed props. If the anchor holds with that, it will hold in up to a full gale. I bet you do? If so, then that pretty much negates your feigned confidence in your undersized day anchor. And, besides, a so-called day anchor is a rude operation. You'd bet wrong. |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
... On Tue, 3 Sep 2013 16:32:57 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·" åke wrote: But Gregory, a 30 lb. danforth will hold a boat perfectly well. It depends on the anchorage and the weather and water. === We have used a 30 lb Danforth as a day anchor in some pretty severe conditions. With enough scope and a good bottom it holds our 70,000 pound trawler just fine (30 kt winds, exposed anchorage with 3 to 5 ft seas). LOL! There's a man confident in his luck! Myself, I'd rather rely on using an anchor that is appropriate for the heft and windage of the vessel. We would also but were doing race committee duty at Key West Race Week at the time and rapid anchor retrieval was a requirement. I was surprised at how well the Danforth held out there in Hawk Channel on a *very* windy day. Hawk Channel has varied bottoms. Some sandy patches and some hard, rocky areas. If you drop anchor in a sandy patch it will hold well until you get a thunderstory with an 180 degree wind shift --- then you have to HOPE the Danforth will reset. Danforth's aren't noted for reliably resetting themselves as I'm sure you know. That's why I prefer two anchor laid out Bahamian Style. That way no matter what the wind does the anchors keep pulling against each other and don't have to trip over and reset. But, two anchors would never do when fast anchor retrieval was the requirement. For a 70,000 pound trawler, a 45-pounder would be the absolute minimum. Even so, I'd be sure to use two of them Bahamian-style so I could feel secure through most any normal weather. (Not talking tropical storms here!) Tell me, please, do you set an anchor alarm on your GPS? Absolutely not. We back down hard with a pair of 30 inch, 4 bladed props. If the anchor holds with that, it will hold in up to a full gale. Unless there is that aforementioned strong windshift . . . I bet you do? If so, then that pretty much negates your feigned confidence in your undersized day anchor. And, besides, a so-called day anchor is a rude operation. You'd bet wrong. C'mon? Not even at night? I find that difficult to believe. -- Sir Gregory |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
rOn Tue, 3 Sep 2013 16:32:57 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·"
åke wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message .. . On Tue, 03 Sep 2013 07:26:09 +0700, Bruce in bangkok wrote: But Gregory, a 30 lb. danforth will hold a boat perfectly well. It depends on the anchorage and the weather and water. === We have used a 30 lb Danforth as a day anchor in some pretty severe conditions. With enough scope and a good bottom it holds our 70,000 pound trawler just fine (30 kt winds, exposed anchorage with 3 to 5 ft seas). LOL! There's a man confident in his luck! Myself, I'd rather rely on using an anchor that is appropriate for the heft and windage of the vessel. For a 70,000 pound trawler, a 45-pounder would be the absolute minimum. Even so, I'd be sure to use two of them Bahamian-style so I could feel secure through most any normal weather. (Not talking tropical storms here!) Interesting. Wrong, but interesting. The Mont, later renamed several times and last named the Seawise Giant, claimed to be the largest ship to ever sail the seas, had a gross weight of 825,614 tons and used a 86 ton anchor. i.e. the ship was 22,937.7 times the weight of the anchor. The Trawler you describe is 1,555.5 times the weight of the anchor that you mention. Or perhaps a better way to describe it is the trawler gross weight to anchor ratio is far higher then that of what is said to have been the largest ship in the world. Using your criteria of gross weight to anchor weight the trawler should be using an anchor of 3.05 pounds. Or, to put it another way... you have proven, yet again, that you don't know what you are talking about. Tell me, please, do you set an anchor alarm on your GPS? I bet you do? If so, then that pretty much negates your feigned confidence in your undersized day anchor. And, besides, a so-called day anchor is a rude operation. You said yourself that you put out lots of length (scope). If the water is 20 feet deep that means you put out at least 7:1 scope or close to 150 feet. That means you swing a very large circle and might get too close to those who use a larger anchor and more conservative scope. Unless it's all chain, that also means possible chaffing snagging and abrasion on coral heads and sharp rocks. And you stink-potters wonder why we sailing seaman don't want much of anything to do with you? I wonder why? -- Sir Gregory -- Cheers, Bruce in Bangkok |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
"Bruce in bangkok" wrote in message
... rOn Tue, 3 Sep 2013 16:32:57 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·" åke wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message . .. On Tue, 03 Sep 2013 07:26:09 +0700, Bruce in bangkok wrote: But Gregory, a 30 lb. danforth will hold a boat perfectly well. It depends on the anchorage and the weather and water. === We have used a 30 lb Danforth as a day anchor in some pretty severe conditions. With enough scope and a good bottom it holds our 70,000 pound trawler just fine (30 kt winds, exposed anchorage with 3 to 5 ft seas). LOL! There's a man confident in his luck! Myself, I'd rather rely on using an anchor that is appropriate for the heft and windage of the vessel. For a 70,000 pound trawler, a 45-pounder would be the absolute minimum. Even so, I'd be sure to use two of them Bahamian-style so I could feel secure through most any normal weather. (Not talking tropical storms here!) Interesting. Wrong, but interesting. The Mont, later renamed several times and last named the Seawise Giant, claimed to be the largest ship to ever sail the seas, had a gross weight of 825,614 tons and used a 86 ton anchor. i.e. the ship was 22,937.7 times the weight of the anchor. The Trawler you describe is 1,555.5 times the weight of the anchor that you mention. Or perhaps a better way to describe it is the trawler gross weight to anchor ratio is far higher then that of what is said to have been the largest ship in the world. Using your criteria of gross weight to anchor weight the trawler should be using an anchor of 3.05 pounds. Or, to put it another way... you have proven, yet again, that you don't know what you are talking about. Did I not also mention windage? Weight is of less consequence in smaller private yachts than is windage. So your diatribe has little actual meaning when it comes to smaller recreational craft as it's not the weight that breaks them loose but the force of the wind acting upon their surface area exposed to the wind. Get a clue, dock boy! If you had a BILLION pound ship but no wind or current you could anchor it with a ten-pound rock and it would stay put. -- Sir Gregory |
Seeking Raymarine Raystart RS125 GPS owners in Fernandina Beach FL to Brunswick GA
On Wed, 4 Sep 2013 11:38:47 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·"
åke wrote: "Bruce in bangkok" wrote in message .. . rOn Tue, 3 Sep 2013 16:32:57 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·" åke wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Tue, 03 Sep 2013 07:26:09 +0700, Bruce in bangkok wrote: But Gregory, a 30 lb. danforth will hold a boat perfectly well. It depends on the anchorage and the weather and water. === We have used a 30 lb Danforth as a day anchor in some pretty severe conditions. With enough scope and a good bottom it holds our 70,000 pound trawler just fine (30 kt winds, exposed anchorage with 3 to 5 ft seas). LOL! There's a man confident in his luck! Myself, I'd rather rely on using an anchor that is appropriate for the heft and windage of the vessel. For a 70,000 pound trawler, a 45-pounder would be the absolute minimum. Even so, I'd be sure to use two of them Bahamian-style so I could feel secure through most any normal weather. (Not talking tropical storms here!) Interesting. Wrong, but interesting. The Mont, later renamed several times and last named the Seawise Giant, claimed to be the largest ship to ever sail the seas, had a gross weight of 825,614 tons and used a 86 ton anchor. i.e. the ship was 22,937.7 times the weight of the anchor. The Trawler you describe is 1,555.5 times the weight of the anchor that you mention. Or perhaps a better way to describe it is the trawler gross weight to anchor ratio is far higher then that of what is said to have been the largest ship in the world. Using your criteria of gross weight to anchor weight the trawler should be using an anchor of 3.05 pounds. Or, to put it another way... you have proven, yet again, that you don't know what you are talking about. Did I not also mention windage? Weight is of less consequence in smaller private yachts than is windage. So your diatribe has little actual meaning when it comes to smaller recreational craft as it's not the weight that breaks them loose but the force of the wind acting upon their surface area exposed to the wind. Ah, windage... I can only assume that you somehow believe that a 70,000 pound trawler has more windage then a 1,651,228,000 pound tanker. As was previously mentioned, you have proven, yet again, that you don't know what you are talking about. Get a clue, dock boy! If you had a BILLION pound ship but no wind or current you could anchor it with a ten-pound rock and it would stay put. And you prove your brilliance yet again. "If you had a BILLION pound ship but no wind or current". Would you care to elaborate on these conditions and where one might encounter them..... other in your fevered dreams. -- Cheers, Bruce in Bangkok |
It's wndage that matters more than weight . . (Was: Seeking Raymarine . . . )
"Bruce in bangkok" wrote in message
... On Wed, 4 Sep 2013 11:38:47 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·" åke wrote: "Bruce in bangkok" wrote in message . .. rOn Tue, 3 Sep 2013 16:32:57 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·" åke wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message m... On Tue, 03 Sep 2013 07:26:09 +0700, Bruce in bangkok wrote: But Gregory, a 30 lb. danforth will hold a boat perfectly well. It depends on the anchorage and the weather and water. === We have used a 30 lb Danforth as a day anchor in some pretty severe conditions. With enough scope and a good bottom it holds our 70,000 pound trawler just fine (30 kt winds, exposed anchorage with 3 to 5 ft seas). LOL! There's a man confident in his luck! Myself, I'd rather rely on using an anchor that is appropriate for the heft and windage of the vessel. For a 70,000 pound trawler, a 45-pounder would be the absolute minimum. Even so, I'd be sure to use two of them Bahamian-style so I could feel secure through most any normal weather. (Not talking tropical storms here!) Interesting. Wrong, but interesting. The Mont, later renamed several times and last named the Seawise Giant, claimed to be the largest ship to ever sail the seas, had a gross weight of 825,614 tons and used a 86 ton anchor. i.e. the ship was 22,937.7 times the weight of the anchor. The Trawler you describe is 1,555.5 times the weight of the anchor that you mention. Or perhaps a better way to describe it is the trawler gross weight to anchor ratio is far higher then that of what is said to have been the largest ship in the world. Using your criteria of gross weight to anchor weight the trawler should be using an anchor of 3.05 pounds. Or, to put it another way... you have proven, yet again, that you don't know what you are talking about. Did I not also mention windage? Weight is of less consequence in smaller private yachts than is windage. So your diatribe has little actual meaning when it comes to smaller recreational craft as it's not the weight that breaks them loose but the force of the wind acting upon their surface area exposed to the wind. Ah, windage... I can only assume that you somehow believe that a 70,000 pound trawler has more windage then a 1,651,228,000 pound tanker. As was previously mentioned, you have proven, yet again, that you don't know what you are talking about. Get a clue, dock boy! If you had a BILLION pound ship but no wind or current you could anchor it with a ten-pound rock and it would stay put. And you prove your brilliance yet again. "If you had a BILLION pound ship but no wind or current". Would you care to elaborate on these conditions and where one might encounter them..... other in your fevered dreams. Bruce, how come you often argue like a girl? Like a girl, you don't seem capable of embracing an absolute that demonstrates a point and demonstrates it well. A billion pound ship that can be anchored by a ten-pound rock is an absolute that proves it's not the tonnage that drags anchors but the force of the wind and current acting upon that tonnage, which is represented by surface area upon which the wind can act, that causes anchors to drag. This all goes to prove that your assertion that one requires X pounds of anchor to properly anchor XY pounds of vessel is deeply flawed. It's a flawed formula because as I have proven, using an absolute, that it's the windage that matters as much or more, in real life conditions than the weight and your dumb formula complete ignores the wind and windage. In other words, you tried to sound like an expert but you failed. -- Sir Gregory |
It's wndage that matters more than weight . . (Was: Seeking Raymarine . . . )
On Thu, 5 Sep 2013 15:18:14 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·"
åke wrote: "Bruce in bangkok" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 4 Sep 2013 11:38:47 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·" åke wrote: "Bruce in bangkok" wrote in message ... rOn Tue, 3 Sep 2013 16:32:57 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·" åke wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message om... On Tue, 03 Sep 2013 07:26:09 +0700, Bruce in bangkok wrote: But Gregory, a 30 lb. danforth will hold a boat perfectly well. It depends on the anchorage and the weather and water. === We have used a 30 lb Danforth as a day anchor in some pretty severe conditions. With enough scope and a good bottom it holds our 70,000 pound trawler just fine (30 kt winds, exposed anchorage with 3 to 5 ft seas). LOL! There's a man confident in his luck! Myself, I'd rather rely on using an anchor that is appropriate for the heft and windage of the vessel. For a 70,000 pound trawler, a 45-pounder would be the absolute minimum. Even so, I'd be sure to use two of them Bahamian-style so I could feel secure through most any normal weather. (Not talking tropical storms here!) Interesting. Wrong, but interesting. The Mont, later renamed several times and last named the Seawise Giant, claimed to be the largest ship to ever sail the seas, had a gross weight of 825,614 tons and used a 86 ton anchor. i.e. the ship was 22,937.7 times the weight of the anchor. The Trawler you describe is 1,555.5 times the weight of the anchor that you mention. Or perhaps a better way to describe it is the trawler gross weight to anchor ratio is far higher then that of what is said to have been the largest ship in the world. Using your criteria of gross weight to anchor weight the trawler should be using an anchor of 3.05 pounds. Or, to put it another way... you have proven, yet again, that you don't know what you are talking about. Did I not also mention windage? Weight is of less consequence in smaller private yachts than is windage. So your diatribe has little actual meaning when it comes to smaller recreational craft as it's not the weight that breaks them loose but the force of the wind acting upon their surface area exposed to the wind. Ah, windage... I can only assume that you somehow believe that a 70,000 pound trawler has more windage then a 1,651,228,000 pound tanker. As was previously mentioned, you have proven, yet again, that you don't know what you are talking about. Get a clue, dock boy! If you had a BILLION pound ship but no wind or current you could anchor it with a ten-pound rock and it would stay put. And you prove your brilliance yet again. "If you had a BILLION pound ship but no wind or current". Would you care to elaborate on these conditions and where one might encounter them..... other in your fevered dreams. Bruce, how come you often argue like a girl? Like a girl, you don't seem capable of embracing an absolute that demonstrates a point and demonstrates it well. A billion pound ship that can be anchored by a ten-pound rock is an absolute that proves it's not the tonnage that drags anchors but the force of the wind and current acting upon that tonnage, which is represented by surface area upon which the wind can act, that causes anchors to drag. This all goes to prove that your assertion that one requires X pounds of anchor to properly anchor XY pounds of vessel is deeply flawed. You can't read? Above someone wrote: "Myself, I'd rather rely on using an anchor that is appropriate for the heft and windage of the vessel. For a 70,000 pound trawler, a 45-pounder would be the absolute minimum. Even so, I'd be sure to use two of them Bahamian-style so I could feel secure through most any normal weather." How soon they forget.... even what they themselves said. It's a flawed formula because as I have proven, using an absolute, that it's the windage that matters as much or more, in real life conditions than the weight and your dumb formula complete ignores the wind and windage. In other words, you tried to sound like an expert but you failed. But it is a formula that you dictated. After all you stated, in the above, a very specific ratio of a 45-pounder anchor for a 70,000 pound trawler. Are you now saying that is incorrect? Or that you told a lie? Or, is it just a simple matter of you not knowing what you were talking about? So I'm not really being "girlish" am I? Or do you feel that being required to admit that you are a liar, or that you simply don't know what you are talking about, is a "girlish" requirement. -- Cheers, Bruce in Bangkok |
It's wndage that matters more than weight . . (Was: Seeking Raymarine . . . )
On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 08:37:14 +0700, Bruce in bangkok
wrote: On Thu, 5 Sep 2013 15:18:14 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·" åke wrote: "Bruce in bangkok" wrote in message . .. On Wed, 4 Sep 2013 11:38:47 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·" åke wrote: "Bruce in bangkok" wrote in message m... rOn Tue, 3 Sep 2013 16:32:57 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·" åke wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message news:m9ca29dsbg75nlfbc151s173die229i1u3@4ax. com... On Tue, 03 Sep 2013 07:26:09 +0700, Bruce in bangkok wrote: But Gregory, a 30 lb. danforth will hold a boat perfectly well. It depends on the anchorage and the weather and water. === We have used a 30 lb Danforth as a day anchor in some pretty severe conditions. With enough scope and a good bottom it holds our 70,000 pound trawler just fine (30 kt winds, exposed anchorage with 3 to 5 ft seas). LOL! There's a man confident in his luck! Myself, I'd rather rely on using an anchor that is appropriate for the heft and windage of the vessel. For a 70,000 pound trawler, a 45-pounder would be the absolute minimum. Even so, I'd be sure to use two of them Bahamian-style so I could feel secure through most any normal weather. (Not talking tropical storms here!) Interesting. Wrong, but interesting. The Mont, later renamed several times and last named the Seawise Giant, claimed to be the largest ship to ever sail the seas, had a gross weight of 825,614 tons and used a 86 ton anchor. i.e. the ship was 22,937.7 times the weight of the anchor. The Trawler you describe is 1,555.5 times the weight of the anchor that you mention. Or perhaps a better way to describe it is the trawler gross weight to anchor ratio is far higher then that of what is said to have been the largest ship in the world. Using your criteria of gross weight to anchor weight the trawler should be using an anchor of 3.05 pounds. Or, to put it another way... you have proven, yet again, that you don't know what you are talking about. Did I not also mention windage? Weight is of less consequence in smaller private yachts than is windage. So your diatribe has little actual meaning when it comes to smaller recreational craft as it's not the weight that breaks them loose but the force of the wind acting upon their surface area exposed to the wind. Ah, windage... I can only assume that you somehow believe that a 70,000 pound trawler has more windage then a 1,651,228,000 pound tanker. As was previously mentioned, you have proven, yet again, that you don't know what you are talking about. Get a clue, dock boy! If you had a BILLION pound ship but no wind or current you could anchor it with a ten-pound rock and it would stay put. And you prove your brilliance yet again. "If you had a BILLION pound ship but no wind or current". Would you care to elaborate on these conditions and where one might encounter them..... other in your fevered dreams. Bruce, how come you often argue like a girl? Like a girl, you don't seem capable of embracing an absolute that demonstrates a point and demonstrates it well. A billion pound ship that can be anchored by a ten-pound rock is an absolute that proves it's not the tonnage that drags anchors but the force of the wind and current acting upon that tonnage, which is represented by surface area upon which the wind can act, that causes anchors to drag. This all goes to prove that your assertion that one requires X pounds of anchor to properly anchor XY pounds of vessel is deeply flawed. You can't read? Above someone wrote: "Myself, I'd rather rely on using an anchor that is appropriate for the heft and windage of the vessel. For a 70,000 pound trawler, a 45-pounder would be the absolute minimum. Even so, I'd be sure to use two of them Bahamian-style so I could feel secure through most any normal weather." How soon they forget.... even what they themselves said. It's a flawed formula because as I have proven, using an absolute, that it's the windage that matters as much or more, in real life conditions than the weight and your dumb formula complete ignores the wind and windage. In other words, you tried to sound like an expert but you failed. But it is a formula that you dictated. After all you stated, in the above, a very specific ratio of a 45-pounder anchor for a 70,000 pound trawler. Are you now saying that is incorrect? Or that you told a lie? ==== Frankly I don't think there'a any prevarication involved, just differences of opinion, perhaps stretched a bit in the interest of a "lively" discussion. And there's no end to the lively discussions about anchors and anchoring. It's a favorite topic where ever cruisers congregate. There are some good formulas for wind loading that take vessel size and shape into account. Some have atttempted to throw in a fudge factor for sea state and accompanying surge loads but those are guesstimates in my opinion. Almost all reputable anchor manufacturers publish a table of recommended anchor size based on boat length but those are also little better than guesstimates since they don't comprehend weight, windage or sea state, and only rarely is an assumed wind speed stated. My personal preference for an all around working anchor is to get the heaviest one that your windlass can handle and that your boat can carry comfortably. I select type based on testing and for the widest possible range of bottom conditions since you don't always get to pick an ideal spot. We were carrying a 125 pound Spade anchor for a while because it got great test results by just about everyone, and because we had a 45 pound Spade on our previous boat that was arguably the best all around anchor I'd ever used. The 125#, although a very good anchor, was right at the upper limit of what we could deal with, and eventually it started to show some signs of structural rust after 8 years of serious cruising and a *lot* of time at anchor. We replaced it last year with the 88 pound Rocna that we are using now. It doesn't set quite as fast as the big Spade bit it's plenty fast enough under most conditions. We usually back down hard with both engines to test the set and it has never dragged after passing that hurdle. It's the kind of anchor where you can get a good night's sleep no matter what. My goal when sizing the anchor and related components is to survive a 50 knot thunder squall without dragging and we have done exactly that on several different occassions. |
It's wndage that matters more than weight . . (Was: Seeking Raymarine . . . )
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
... On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 08:37:14 +0700, Bruce in bangkok wrote: On Thu, 5 Sep 2013 15:18:14 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·" åke wrote: "Bruce in bangkok" wrote in message ... On Wed, 4 Sep 2013 11:38:47 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·" åke wrote: "Bruce in bangkok" wrote in message om... rOn Tue, 3 Sep 2013 16:32:57 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·" åke wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message news:m9ca29dsbg75nlfbc151s173die229i1u3@4ax .com... On Tue, 03 Sep 2013 07:26:09 +0700, Bruce in bangkok wrote: But Gregory, a 30 lb. danforth will hold a boat perfectly well. It depends on the anchorage and the weather and water. === We have used a 30 lb Danforth as a day anchor in some pretty severe conditions. With enough scope and a good bottom it holds our 70,000 pound trawler just fine (30 kt winds, exposed anchorage with 3 to 5 ft seas). LOL! There's a man confident in his luck! Myself, I'd rather rely on using an anchor that is appropriate for the heft and windage of the vessel. For a 70,000 pound trawler, a 45-pounder would be the absolute minimum. Even so, I'd be sure to use two of them Bahamian-style so I could feel secure through most any normal weather. (Not talking tropical storms here!) Interesting. Wrong, but interesting. The Mont, later renamed several times and last named the Seawise Giant, claimed to be the largest ship to ever sail the seas, had a gross weight of 825,614 tons and used a 86 ton anchor. i.e. the ship was 22,937.7 times the weight of the anchor. The Trawler you describe is 1,555.5 times the weight of the anchor that you mention. Or perhaps a better way to describe it is the trawler gross weight to anchor ratio is far higher then that of what is said to have been the largest ship in the world. Using your criteria of gross weight to anchor weight the trawler should be using an anchor of 3.05 pounds. Or, to put it another way... you have proven, yet again, that you don't know what you are talking about. Did I not also mention windage? Weight is of less consequence in smaller private yachts than is windage. So your diatribe has little actual meaning when it comes to smaller recreational craft as it's not the weight that breaks them loose but the force of the wind acting upon their surface area exposed to the wind. Ah, windage... I can only assume that you somehow believe that a 70,000 pound trawler has more windage then a 1,651,228,000 pound tanker. As was previously mentioned, you have proven, yet again, that you don't know what you are talking about. Get a clue, dock boy! If you had a BILLION pound ship but no wind or current you could anchor it with a ten-pound rock and it would stay put. And you prove your brilliance yet again. "If you had a BILLION pound ship but no wind or current". Would you care to elaborate on these conditions and where one might encounter them..... other in your fevered dreams. Bruce, how come you often argue like a girl? Like a girl, you don't seem capable of embracing an absolute that demonstrates a point and demonstrates it well. A billion pound ship that can be anchored by a ten-pound rock is an absolute that proves it's not the tonnage that drags anchors but the force of the wind and current acting upon that tonnage, which is represented by surface area upon which the wind can act, that causes anchors to drag. This all goes to prove that your assertion that one requires X pounds of anchor to properly anchor XY pounds of vessel is deeply flawed. You can't read? Above someone wrote: "Myself, I'd rather rely on using an anchor that is appropriate for the heft and windage of the vessel. For a 70,000 pound trawler, a 45-pounder would be the absolute minimum. Even so, I'd be sure to use two of them Bahamian-style so I could feel secure through most any normal weather." How soon they forget.... even what they themselves said. It's a flawed formula because as I have proven, using an absolute, that it's the windage that matters as much or more, in real life conditions than the weight and your dumb formula complete ignores the wind and windage. In other words, you tried to sound like an expert but you failed. But it is a formula that you dictated. After all you stated, in the above, a very specific ratio of a 45-pounder anchor for a 70,000 pound trawler. Are you now saying that is incorrect? Or that you told a lie? ==== Frankly I don't think there'a any prevarication involved, just differences of opinion, perhaps stretched a bit in the interest of a "lively" discussion. And there's no end to the lively discussions about anchors and anchoring. It's a favorite topic where ever cruisers congregate. There are some good formulas for wind loading that take vessel size and shape into account. Some have atttempted to throw in a fudge factor for sea state and accompanying surge loads but those are guesstimates in my opinion. Almost all reputable anchor manufacturers publish a table of recommended anchor size based on boat length but those are also little better than guesstimates since they don't comprehend weight, windage or sea state, and only rarely is an assumed wind speed stated. My personal preference for an all around working anchor is to get the heaviest one that your windlass can handle and that your boat can carry comfortably. I select type based on testing and for the widest possible range of bottom conditions since you don't always get to pick an ideal spot. We were carrying a 125 pound Spade anchor for a while because it got great test results by just about everyone, and because we had a 45 pound Spade on our previous boat that was arguably the best all around anchor I'd ever used. The 125#, although a very good anchor, was right at the upper limit of what we could deal with, and eventually it started to show some signs of structural rust after 8 years of serious cruising and a *lot* of time at anchor. We replaced it last year with the 88 pound Rocna that we are using now. It doesn't set quite as fast as the big Spade bit it's plenty fast enough under most conditions. We usually back down hard with both engines to test the set and it has never dragged after passing that hurdle. It's the kind of anchor where you can get a good night's sleep no matter what. My goal when sizing the anchor and related components is to survive a 50 knot thunder squall without dragging and we have done exactly that on several different occassions. Bingo! A most excellent assessment. Here at my home port my anchors stay on the bottom because they are too heavy to pull up by hand and I don't have a windlass. The only way I can pull up the two 300 pound circular cast iron anchors is to use one of the genoa winches with the line lead over the side with a piece of stainless steel between the edge of the GRP and the line. The anchors are unique in that they are circular. They started life as manhole cover rings. They are the frame, so to speak, into which a manhole cover fits. These are three feet inside diameter and about 14 inches deep. They sink down into the mud/shells and grass so nothing drags them no matter the direction or strength of the wind. I sleep very comfortably even through the occasional hurricane as long as I don't have anybody upwind to drag down on me to worry about. When out and about, for overnighters, I always use two anchors set Bahamian style in case of wind and/or current shifts. My bowers consist of two 25 lb Danforth Hi-Tensile Deepsets. They are attached using about 12 feet of 3/8" stainless steel chain shackled to eye spliced 9/16" nylon three-strand. I sometimes use a 20lb CQR and/or 20lb Herreshoff fisherman anchor in rocky conditions where the Danforths can't be trusted to hold well. I have NEVER dragged in my entire 30 some odd years of cruising. I don't allow dragging even if it means snorkeling down and setting the anchors by hand or assuring they are well-dug in. I can't abide the sloppiness and negligence of today's so-called sailor who tosses a tiny anchor over the side and doesn't even bother to back down on it. You've seen these idiots, I'm sure. When the wind pipes up and they commence to drag they pop their head out of the accommodation with a shocked look on their face as if they've never dragged before. We all know they drag all the time. One time one of these jerks was dragging down on me and I blew the horn at him and told him he was dragging and he had the nerve to say he wasn't because I was dragging. Like any vessel is able to drag up against the wind. -- Sir Gregory |
It's wndage that matters more than weight . . (Was: Seeking Raymarine . . . )
On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 23:15:40 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote: On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 08:37:14 +0700, Bruce in bangkok wrote: On Thu, 5 Sep 2013 15:18:14 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·" åke wrote: "Bruce in bangkok" wrote in message ... On Wed, 4 Sep 2013 11:38:47 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·" åke wrote: "Bruce in bangkok" wrote in message om... rOn Tue, 3 Sep 2013 16:32:57 -0400, " Sir Gregory Hall, Esq·" åke wrote: "Wayne.B" wrote in message news:m9ca29dsbg75nlfbc151s173die229i1u3@4ax .com... On Tue, 03 Sep 2013 07:26:09 +0700, Bruce in bangkok wrote: But Gregory, a 30 lb. danforth will hold a boat perfectly well. It depends on the anchorage and the weather and water. === We have used a 30 lb Danforth as a day anchor in some pretty severe conditions. With enough scope and a good bottom it holds our 70,000 pound trawler just fine (30 kt winds, exposed anchorage with 3 to 5 ft seas). LOL! There's a man confident in his luck! Myself, I'd rather rely on using an anchor that is appropriate for the heft and windage of the vessel. For a 70,000 pound trawler, a 45-pounder would be the absolute minimum. Even so, I'd be sure to use two of them Bahamian-style so I could feel secure through most any normal weather. (Not talking tropical storms here!) Interesting. Wrong, but interesting. The Mont, later renamed several times and last named the Seawise Giant, claimed to be the largest ship to ever sail the seas, had a gross weight of 825,614 tons and used a 86 ton anchor. i.e. the ship was 22,937.7 times the weight of the anchor. The Trawler you describe is 1,555.5 times the weight of the anchor that you mention. Or perhaps a better way to describe it is the trawler gross weight to anchor ratio is far higher then that of what is said to have been the largest ship in the world. Using your criteria of gross weight to anchor weight the trawler should be using an anchor of 3.05 pounds. Or, to put it another way... you have proven, yet again, that you don't know what you are talking about. Did I not also mention windage? Weight is of less consequence in smaller private yachts than is windage. So your diatribe has little actual meaning when it comes to smaller recreational craft as it's not the weight that breaks them loose but the force of the wind acting upon their surface area exposed to the wind. Ah, windage... I can only assume that you somehow believe that a 70,000 pound trawler has more windage then a 1,651,228,000 pound tanker. As was previously mentioned, you have proven, yet again, that you don't know what you are talking about. Get a clue, dock boy! If you had a BILLION pound ship but no wind or current you could anchor it with a ten-pound rock and it would stay put. And you prove your brilliance yet again. "If you had a BILLION pound ship but no wind or current". Would you care to elaborate on these conditions and where one might encounter them..... other in your fevered dreams. Bruce, how come you often argue like a girl? Like a girl, you don't seem capable of embracing an absolute that demonstrates a point and demonstrates it well. A billion pound ship that can be anchored by a ten-pound rock is an absolute that proves it's not the tonnage that drags anchors but the force of the wind and current acting upon that tonnage, which is represented by surface area upon which the wind can act, that causes anchors to drag. This all goes to prove that your assertion that one requires X pounds of anchor to properly anchor XY pounds of vessel is deeply flawed. You can't read? Above someone wrote: "Myself, I'd rather rely on using an anchor that is appropriate for the heft and windage of the vessel. For a 70,000 pound trawler, a 45-pounder would be the absolute minimum. Even so, I'd be sure to use two of them Bahamian-style so I could feel secure through most any normal weather." How soon they forget.... even what they themselves said. It's a flawed formula because as I have proven, using an absolute, that it's the windage that matters as much or more, in real life conditions than the weight and your dumb formula complete ignores the wind and windage. In other words, you tried to sound like an expert but you failed. But it is a formula that you dictated. After all you stated, in the above, a very specific ratio of a 45-pounder anchor for a 70,000 pound trawler. Are you now saying that is incorrect? Or that you told a lie? ==== Frankly I don't think there'a any prevarication involved, just differences of opinion, perhaps stretched a bit in the interest of a "lively" discussion. And there's no end to the lively discussions about anchors and anchoring. It's a favorite topic where ever cruisers congregate. There are some good formulas for wind loading that take vessel size and shape into account. Some have atttempted to throw in a fudge factor for sea state and accompanying surge loads but those are guesstimates in my opinion. Almost all reputable anchor manufacturers publish a table of recommended anchor size based on boat length but those are also little better than guesstimates since they don't comprehend weight, windage or sea state, and only rarely is an assumed wind speed stated. My personal preference for an all around working anchor is to get the heaviest one that your windlass can handle and that your boat can carry comfortably. I select type based on testing and for the widest possible range of bottom conditions since you don't always get to pick an ideal spot. We were carrying a 125 pound Spade anchor for a while because it got great test results by just about everyone, and because we had a 45 pound Spade on our previous boat that was arguably the best all around anchor I'd ever used. The 125#, although a very good anchor, was right at the upper limit of what we could deal with, and eventually it started to show some signs of structural rust after 8 years of serious cruising and a *lot* of time at anchor. We replaced it last year with the 88 pound Rocna that we are using now. It doesn't set quite as fast as the big Spade bit it's plenty fast enough under most conditions. We usually back down hard with both engines to test the set and it has never dragged after passing that hurdle. It's the kind of anchor where you can get a good night's sleep no matter what. My goal when sizing the anchor and related components is to survive a 50 knot thunder squall without dragging and we have done exactly that on several different occassions. I tend to agree with you, use the heaviest anchor you can, if you have a windless :-) I had a 45 lb. and a 50 kg. anchor on the sailboat. When I bought the boat the lighter anchor as shackled onto the anchor chain and I never changed it in the more then 10 years I sail the boat. My mention of "if you have an anchor" was very much influenced by the fact that we set off for Malaysia one time and discovered the first morning that the windless didn't work and for a number of reasons we had to get to Malaysia :-( Hardly my most memorable trip :-) -- Cheers, Bruce in Bangkok |
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